Australian Politics Forum - the poster children for 18c

freediver

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the poster children for 18c
Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:22pm

Gerald Fredrick Töben was brought before the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission for violating section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act by denying the holocaust. The HREOC found against him, but he ignored them, so they escalated the matter to the federal court, who issued a court order enforcing the HREOC findings under section 18c. Toben ignored that also and continued denying the holocaust on his website. He was eventually jailed for his opinion.

Supporters of 18c insist it is not a threat to freedom of speech because of the exemptions under section 18d. However these exemptions did not protect Toben, and would be unlikely to protect others whose views are unpopular. Supporters of 18c try various lies to distance 18c from Toben's jailing, from the subtle to the idiotic. Even I am surprised by how many people are doing this. This is as good a reason as any to defend freedom of speech. If not, you leave yourself at the mercy of this sort of idiocy. Anyway, here they are.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Dec 12^th, 2016 at 11:24am:

He should at least be locked up for stupidity.

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 12^th, 2016 at 12:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.

And there isnt. Tobin was jailed for contempt of court. I had the displeasure many years ago to communicate with him and felt dirty ever since.

He has his right to an opinion. He does not have the right to disagree with a court and get away with it. And he didnt.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 12:50pm:

18c is more about penalising the misuse or abuse of freedom of speech
You are not going to claim that what Bold did was ok are you ?

Dnarever wrote on Dec 14^th, 2016 at 7:22pm:

He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 8:40pm:

Wanker got what he deserved. I doubt anyone cares.

John Smith wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 11:03am:

freediver wrote on Dec 16^th, 2016 at 10:03pm:

Let's try this again John.

Which of the following is correct?

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it

both

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 13^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

Quote:

18c means you can now be jailed for exercising your fundamental human rights.

Can you show us the legislation than outlines the penalties, FD?

Raven wrote on Dec 14^th, 2016 at 12:13pm:

Your friend Toben on the other hand did commit a crime but not by denying the Holocaust. Justice Branson ordered him to remove the material, he refused.

Raven wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 8:26pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 2:56pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14^th, 2016 at 7:18pm:

Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?

He wasn't jailed for his opinion.

Do you believe that you should be able to say anything you want without consequence?

John Smith wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 10:56am:

Does FD think we should revoke 'contempt of court' legislation too?
It would seem that if his concern was Tobin, that should be the legislation he should be targeting, instead of lying about 18c.

John Smith wrote on Dec 12^th, 2016 at 3:54pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12^th, 2016 at 1:49pm:

John Smith had a rather stupid suggestion that we respond by trying to get rid of contempt of court legislation rather than 18c (again, see the opening post for quotes)

simply highlighting how stupid your idea is. You want to ban 18c because it resulted in someone going to jail who you believe shouldn't have. Continue that logic through to other laws and you'll see how stupid that train of thought is.

John Smith wrote on Dec 13^th, 2016 at 11:04pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 13^th, 2016 at 9:42pm:

Are you suggesting that Toben's imprisonment is a figment of our imagination?

In some cases, yes.

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« Last Edit: Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:29pm by freediver »

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freediver

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #1 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:22pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 9:42pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 9:31pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 9:24pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 9:23pm:

So is he or is he not free to ignore the court orders?

of course he is. And he did.

You'll figure it out one day John. When you do, it will seem like you always knew.

John Smith wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it

No poo Sherlock.

I'm beginning to think you won't figure it out FD.

John Smith wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 8:29pm:

freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in

now, why don't you answer my question? Are you afraid?

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 2:26pm:

Seems to me that the critics of 18c like to tell lies about past court cases that had absolutely nothing to do with section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act. I wonder why? Do you think lying? Roll Eyes

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 9:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.

As I do. Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c... Roll Eyes

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 12^th, 2016 at 4:10pm:

Toben is free to think what he likes. He can even discuss it privately. What he isn't allowed to do is state his anti-Holocaust lies in public. Roll Eyes

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 9:56pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 9:16pm:

And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?

What I consider is immaterial, Setlanta. Toben showed his contempt for a decision that was made against him.

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 11:26am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 11:07am:

That's the one. The contempt took the form of denying the holocaust, in violation of 18c.

But he was actually jailed for contempt of court. I'm glad that's cleared up.

Aussie wrote on Dec 12^th, 2016 at 6:50pm:

What I said was an accurate description at the time I used them in the context I used them.

Aussie wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 7:15pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 7:10pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 6:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 5:57pm:

Sure. Has anyone suggested an alternative means of arriving at damages?

Gandalf, do you agree that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust, or do you take the learned Aussie's view that he was jailed for Contempt of Court by defying a Court Order not refraining from denying the holocaust (and anything else is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind)

I've corrected the question so that I am not verballed, and to make it accurate in terms of what I said, and not what FD wishes I had said.

Your own words Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2016 at 7:51pm:

Finally...after how many pages, you get it correct:

Quote:

So he was not jailed for denying the holocaust. He was jailed for not ceasing to deny the holocaust?

....as he was ordered to do by the Court.

Your own words again Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2016 at 8:58pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2016 at 8:50pm:

Can you clarify that when you accused me of lying about whether the man was jailed for denying the holocaust (without explanation) you merely meant that he was jailed for refusing to cease denying the holocaust?

How many times must I do that for you freediver? I have agreed with that.

The evidence you introduced Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 12:58pm:

Pausing there, it follows from the above that there is no room for dispute that Dr Toben has spent time in prison in Australia for criminal contempt constituted by the publication of material found to have racially vilified the Jewish people and which conveyed imputations including that there was serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred.

After agreeing with all this, do you still insist it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest he was jailed for denying the holocaust?

Yes.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38407 Gender:	Re: the poster children for 18c Reply #2 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:23pm THREAD # 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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polite_gandalf

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #3 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:24pm

FD have you come to a decision on whether or not Toben was gaoled for his opinion yet?

freediver wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 9:23pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 15^th, 2016 at 8:26pm:

He wasn't jailed for his opinion.

I did not say he was. This is what I said. Read it carefully now: Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?

Quote from FD's thread entitled Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: the poster children for 18c Reply #4 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:33pm What do you think I meant by that Gandalf? Did you make a submission on 18c?
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The_Barnacle

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #5 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:35pm

Another thread on 18c?

This just supports what I said in the opening post of my own thread.
It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots than they are about ensuring the Government is held to account.

The draconian "special intelligence operation" legislation would never get 5 posts running at once

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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.

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freediver

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #6 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:45pm

Quote:

It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots

That's what freedom f speech means Barnacle.

From your thread - do you agree with this?

Dnarever wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 12:30pm:

18c has an altruistic reason behind it

Dnarever wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:09pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 11:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 11:39am:

You don't think jailing people for their opinion is a threat to freedom of speech? Or does it not count if you think they are a wanker?

As you are aware the fact is that nobody was jailed on 18c.

Wankers are jailed for contempt of court just like anyone else.

Are you aware how Toben violated his court order?

What do you think was the ultimate cause of the court order?

Dnarever wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 12:30pm:

18c has an altruistic reason behind it

Why do you feel the need to justify it?

What do you think was the ultimate cause of the court order?

I don't think it is relevant - you want to play chicken and egg go ahead. The fact stands that he disobeyed a court instruction which caused his incrassation.

Why do you feel the need to justify it

Justifying nothing just stating an obvious fact.

mothra wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:44pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:41pm:

people get jailed all over the world for their opinions mothballs.

Firstly, that's not under 18c, you muppet.

Secondly, is it their opinions that got them into trouble? Or what they did with those opinions?

mothra wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:55pm:

Nobody in Australia has ever been jailed for their opinion.

mothra wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 2:51pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 2:50pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:38pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:37pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:29pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 1:28pm:

Do tell Mothra. When you get jailed for your opinion, it is of great comfort to know that 18c merely made your opinion unlawful rather than illegal.

You don't get jailed for your opinion.

You do in Australia, thanks to 18c.

You do realise that that is what they mean by a "threat to freedom of speech" don't you?

Name one person who has been jailed for their opinion, Freediver.

Gerald Fredrick Toben.

Now say something incredibly stupid.

No. He was jailed for contempt of court.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the poster children for 18c Reply #7 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:49pm freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:33pm: What do you think I meant by that Gandalf? Did you make a submission on 18c? Are you saying you meant something different to what you said? Was Toben jailed for his opinion?
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 94388 Gender:	Re: the poster children for 18c Reply #8 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:59pm Quote: Can you show us the legislation than outlines the penalties, FD? Thanks for raising my question, FD, I'd forgotten about that one. Would you like to answer it?
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Mattyfisk

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #9 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 5:01pm

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

Quote:

It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots

That's what freedom f speech means Barnacle.

Actually, it's the eopposite. The defence of freedom of speech is normally used when speaking out against the powerful. Racists and bigots use their speech against the powerless.

Freeeeedom, innit.

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Dustwun

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #10 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 5:04pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 5:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

Quote:

It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots

That's what freedom f speech means Barnacle.

Actually, it's the eopposite. The defence of freedom of speech is normally used when speaking out against the powerful. Racists and bigots use their speech against the powerless.

Freeeeedom, innit.

What about speaking out against Sunni who bugger all other religions they encounter?

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Mr Hammer

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #11 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 5:05pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 5:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

Quote:

It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots

That's what freedom f speech means Barnacle.

Actually, it's the eopposite. The defence of freedom of speech is normally used when speaking out against the powerful. Racists and bigots use their speech against the powerless.

Freeeeedom, innit.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #12 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 5:11pm

Dustwun wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 5:04pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 5:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

Quote:

It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots

That's what freedom f speech means Barnacle.

Actually, it's the eopposite. The defence of freedom of speech is normally used when speaking out against the powerful. Racists and bigots use their speech against the powerless.

Freeeeedom, innit.

What about speaking out against Sunni who bugger all other religions they encounter?

I'd say you need to know a bit more before you express your Freeeeeedom.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 73670 Gender:	Re: the poster children for 18c Reply #13 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 8:23pm Are you hoping that if you keep starting theads on this, the facts will eventually change to suit your argument?
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Aussie

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Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #14 - Dec 17^th, 2016 at 8:51pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 17^th, 2016 at 8:23pm:

Are you hoping that if you keep starting theads on this, the facts will eventually change to suit your argument?

This is a typical FD quote bomb. He carefully selects posts, isolates them out of context and then posts them as a collage, purporting to be integral and in context, in one of these dumbarse 'bombs.' Really stupid and so obviously disingenuous.

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