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be heard on 18c and freedom of speech (Read 24470 times)
freediver
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be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Nov 27th, 2016 at 9:12am
 
Please make a submission to the government inquiry into section 18c of the racial discrimination act. You have until December 9. Make a submission online here (button on right of page):

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Joint/Human_Rights_inqui...

Key points you might want to address:

* A fundamental precept of free speech is that no-one has the right not to be offended. Citing offense as a justification for restricting speech legally is a fundamental attack on freedom of speech.
* Likewise, insult, humiliation and intimidation are entirely a measure of people's response to speech, rather than the speech itself.
* These terms are vague to the point of meaningless and will inevitably be used to further social and political agendas rather than protect people from genuine harm.
* The racial discrimination act should not be used to silence people who offer alternative views on history. It is completely inappropriate for example to jail someone for denying the holocaust, regardless of how strongly you feel about their views.
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Aussie
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #1 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 9:28am
 
What do you want to say, freediver, which 18C and D precludes you from saying?
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freediver
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #2 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 9:29am
 
Nothing that I am aware of Aussie.

What is the point you are trying to make?
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Aussie
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #3 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 9:50am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 9:29am:
Nothing that I am aware of Aussie.

What is the point you are trying to make?


I've made it.  No need for change.  It does not inhibit you at all.
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And Indian women aren't exactly LBFMs.  ~ GordyL.
Nicole ~ kill every man woman and child, who is a Muslim.
Violent cods ~ I know if he had touched my kid  he [taxi driver]would need an Ambulance.
 
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Grendel
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #4 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 10:04am
 
Well even Triggs admits 18c etc need changing... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
So thanks FD I'll be putting in my opinions on it too.
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I Brian Ross, UNRESERVEDLY apologise to Grendel for libeling him on this site by calling him a racist, a xenophobe and an Islamophobe... which he patently is not, nor has he ever been.
Thank you brian
 
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freediver
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #5 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 10:04am
 
Aussie are you actually suggesting we should not defend other people's rights unless we are personally and directly affected?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
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Aussie
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #6 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:17am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 10:04am:
Aussie are you actually suggesting we should not defend other people's rights unless we are personally and directly affected?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller


Gee, I've never heard that one before.   Roll Eyes

What is that anyone wants to say that 18C/D prevents them from saying?
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And Indian women aren't exactly LBFMs.  ~ GordyL.
Nicole ~ kill every man woman and child, who is a Muslim.
Violent cods ~ I know if he had touched my kid  he [taxi driver]would need an Ambulance.
 
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freediver
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #7 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:41am
 
Gerald Fredrick Töben (director and founder of the Adelaide Institute) has been jailed in South Australia, as well as the UK and Germany for denying the holocaust. This is one of the most ludicrous uses of the law in a supposedly free society - preventing people from questioning historical facts.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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Aussie
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #8 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:47am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:41am:
Gerald Fredrick Töben (director and founder of the Adelaide Institute) has been jailed in South Australia, as well as the UK and Germany for denying the holocaust. This is one of the most ludicrous uses of the law in a supposedly free society - preventing people from questioning historical facts.


I am not here to defend any European Law.  18C/D has nothing to do with that.  And, it is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind on your part freediver to assert he was jailed in SA for denying the holocaust. 
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And Indian women aren't exactly LBFMs.  ~ GordyL.
Nicole ~ kill every man woman and child, who is a Muslim.
Violent cods ~ I know if he had touched my kid  he [taxi driver]would need an Ambulance.
 
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freediver
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #9 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:26pm
 
He was jailed for denying the holocaust Aussie.

If you know so much about this, why all the silly questions?
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #10 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:30pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:26pm:
He was jailed for denying the holocaust Aussie.

If you know so much about this, why all the silly questions?


It is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind, freediver, to assert he was jailed for denying the holocaust.  Would you like the relevant links to the actual cases?

What is also relevant is that you must rely on bullshit to support your contention.  Telling.

Do you have any better examples of what you are bullshitting about than Töben?
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And Indian women aren't exactly LBFMs.  ~ GordyL.
Nicole ~ kill every man woman and child, who is a Muslim.
Violent cods ~ I know if he had touched my kid  he [taxi driver]would need an Ambulance.
 
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freediver
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #11 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:42pm
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Fredrick_T%C3%B6ben

Töben rejects what he calls the "official conspiracy theory" that Germans systematically exterminated European Jewry. Töben has stated that "the current U.S. government is influenced by world Zionist considerations to retain the survival of the European colonial, apartheid, Zionist, racist entity of Israel."[33]

In 1994 he established the Adelaide Institute, which he directed until 2009. Töben and his associates at the Adelaide Institute have denied "being Holocaust deniers" in interviews conducted by Australian media, claiming they cannot deny that which never happened.[34]

On 10 October 2000, the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission ruled that the Adelaide Institute should remove website material the Commission considered racial hate speech.

On 17 September 2002, the Federal Court of Australia affirmed on appeal the application of Australian anti-racial hatred laws against speech on Töben's website. It did not, however, force Töben to apologise. The ruling in Toben v Jones (2003) 129 FCR 515, was one of the first applications of Australian anti-racial hatred laws to speech against religious groups.[35][36][37]

In 2005 in an interview with Iranian state television he indicated that it was his belief that "Israel is founded on the Holocaust lie."[38][39] In 2006 Töben attended the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust in Iran.

In 1998 Töben was imprisoned for nine months at Mannheim Prison for breaching Germany's Holocaust Law, Section 130, that prohibits anyone from "defaming the dead".[3]

In April 2009, Töben was found guilty of contempt of court for breaching a court order to refrain from publishing material on his website vilifying Jewish people. He unreservedly apologised for his breaches of court orders and said he would not withdraw his apology as he had in the past.[40] He appealed against the sentence, but on 13 August 2009 the Full Court of the Federal Court of Australia rejected his appeal, and he started his 3-month jail sentence, one week in maximum security-punishment block – first at Yatala Labour Prison, and later at Cadell Training Centre, a low security prison farm.[41]

The contempt arose from an action by Jeremy Jones, former President of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry. In 2012 Jones sought his court costs of more than $175,000 from Töben, who pleaded that he had no money. The Federal Magistrates Court declared Töben bankrupt and, consequently, his passport was confiscated.
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #12 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:42pm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Fredrick_T%C3%B6ben

Töben rejects what he calls the "official conspiracy theory" that Germans systematically exterminated European Jewry. Töben has stated that "the current U.S. government is influenced by world Zionist considerations to retain the survival of the European colonial, apartheid, Zionist, racist entity of Israel."[33]

In 1994 he established the Adelaide Institute, which he directed until 2009. Töben and his associates at the Adelaide Institute have denied "being Holocaust deniers" in interviews conducted by Australian media, claiming they cannot deny that which never happened.[34]

On 10 October 2000, the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission ruled that the Adelaide Institute should remove website material the Commission considered racial hate speech.

On 17 September 2002, the Federal Court of Australia affirmed on appeal the application of Australian anti-racial hatred laws against speech on Töben's website. It did not, however, force Töben to apologise. The ruling in Toben v Jones (2003) 129 FCR 515, was one of the first applications of Australian anti-racial hatred laws to speech against religious groups.[35][36][37]

In 2005 in an interview with Iranian state television he indicated that it was his belief that "Israel is founded on the Holocaust lie."[38][39] In 2006 Töben attended the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust in Iran.

In 1998 Töben was imprisoned for nine months at Mannheim Prison for breaching Germany's Holocaust Law, Section 130, that prohibits anyone from "defaming the dead".[3]

In April 2009, Töben was found guilty of contempt of court for breaching a court order to refrain from publishing material on his website vilifying Jewish people. He unreservedly apologised for his breaches of court orders and said he would not withdraw his apology as he had in the past.[40] He appealed against the sentence, but on 13 August 2009 the Full Court of the Federal Court of Australia rejected his appeal, and he started his 3-month jail sentence, one week in maximum security-punishment block – first at Yatala Labour Prison, and later at Cadell Training Centre, a low security prison farm.[41]

The contempt arose from an action by Jeremy Jones, former President of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry. In 2012 Jones sought his court costs of more than $175,000 from Töben, who pleaded that he had no money. The Federal Magistrates Court declared Töben bankrupt and, consequently, his passport was confiscated.


So, your retraction and apology will be in your next post?

Quote:
Those orders are the orders to which reference is made in the primary judge’s reasons (at [105], as extracted at [3] above) and to which Dr Toben has referred as a ‘gag’ order (see [22] below). Dr Toben unsuccessfully brought an appeal from Branson J’s decision. In subsequent proceedings heard by Lander J (Jones v Toben (2009) 255 ALR 238; [2009] FCA 354), Dr Toben was found to be in contempt both of Branson J’s orders and of an undertaking he had given to Moore J in the Federal Court in late November 2007 that he would abide by those orders. His breach of the orders and non-compliance with the undertaking was found to be wilful and contumacious, amounting to a criminal contempt for which Dr Toben was sentenced in May 2009 by Lander J to three months’ imprisonment. Dr Toben’s appeal against the severity of that sentence was dismissed in August 2009 (Toben v Jones [2009] FCAFC 104). In his affidavit of 29 October 2014 sworn in the defamation proceedings the subject of the present appeal, Dr Toben has deposed to this period of imprisonment for contempt of court ([18]).

Pausing there, it follows from the above that there is no room for dispute that Dr Toben has spent time in prison in Australia for criminal contempt constituted by the publication of material found to have racially vilified the Jewish people and which conveyed imputations including that there was serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred. Nevertheless, in the defamation proceedings before the primary judge (and before this Court), he contends that the imputations conveyed in the matter complained of that he spent time in prison in Australia for anti-Semitic activities and for Holocaust denial are false. Similarly, although Dr Toben has deposed to having spent five months in prison in Germany in 1999 on a charge of an offence under s 130 of the German Criminal Code of “defaming the memory of the dead” (for which he says he was sentenced to 10 months’ imprisonment but released on payment of a sum of money – [21]), and though he wrote in the Adelaide Institute newsletter of April 2006 (No 282), of this event, that he was “worked over by the German judicial system at Mannheim” where he was sentenced for “daring to discuss and dispute matters concerning the ‘Holocaust’”, Dr Toben asserts that the imputations conveyed by the matter now complained of in relation to his time in prison in Germany are false.


Link.

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And Indian women aren't exactly LBFMs.  ~ GordyL.
Nicole ~ kill every man woman and child, who is a Muslim.
Violent cods ~ I know if he had touched my kid  he [taxi driver]would need an Ambulance.
 
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freediver
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #13 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 1:14pm
 
Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:58pm:
Pausing there, it follows from the above that there is no room for dispute that Dr Toben has spent time in prison in Australia for criminal contempt constituted by the publication of material found to have racially vilified the Jewish people and which conveyed imputations including that there was serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred.


Thanks Aussie. I guess that settles it. No doubt all this legal stuff is very complicated for you, and I do not really expect you to read your evidence before posting it. However, surely you must appreciate your right to express your view on this important issue, no matter how wrong it is?
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Re: be heard on 18c and freedom of speech
Reply #14 - Nov 27th, 2016 at 1:17pm
 
Quote:
RACIAL DISCRIMINATION ACT 1975 - SECT 18D
Exemptions
                   Section 18C does not render unlawful anything said or done reasonably and in good faith:
                     (a)  in the performance, exhibition or distribution of an artistic work; or
                     (b)  in the course of any statement, publication, discussion or debate made or held for any genuine academic, artistic or scientific purpose or any other genuine purpose in the public interest; or
                     (c)  in making or publishing:
                              (i)  a fair and accurate report of any event or matter of public interest; or
                             (ii)  a fair comment on any event or matter of public interest if the comment is an expression of a genuine belief held by the person making the comment.


Bolt should have been let off then because of 18D yet wasn't....  gee I wonder why?  As long as we have politically biased people and ideologues in our institutions we will never have fair systems.
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I Brian Ross, UNRESERVEDLY apologise to Grendel for libeling him on this site by calling him a racist, a xenophobe and an Islamophobe... which he patently is not, nor has he ever been.
Thank you brian
 
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