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Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion (Read 14888 times)
John Smith
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #105 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights



no.
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #106 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:56pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:49pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights



no.


Seconded.

Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #107 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:26pm
 
Here you go, verballing me yet again, freediver.

Quote:
If  you disagree, perhaps you can answer the question that Aussie is so scared of - what caused the court order?


I am not 'scared.'  I am simply getting off your perpetual motion merry-go-round.  Those links makes it quite plain why he was jailed.  Read them.  It does not matter what I think.

Quote:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights.


No. 

I am quite content to see 18C/D stay as is.  You have already conceded you can think of nothing you want to say which it precludes you from saying.
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« Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:33pm by Aussie »  

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #108 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:31pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:26pm:
Here you fo, verballing me yet again, freediver.



it's his specialty
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #109 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 2:26pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:26pm:
Here you go, verballing me yet again, freediver.

Quote:
If  you disagree, perhaps you can answer the question that Aussie is so scared of - what caused the court order?


I am not 'scared.'  I am simply getting off your perpetual motion merry-go-round.  Those links makes it quite plain why he was jailed.  Read them.  It does not matter what I think.

Quote:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights.


No. 

I am quite content to see 18C/D stay as is.  You have already conceded you can think of nothing you want to say which it precludes you from saying.


It's now an unrelated contempt of court.

Strange. Toben confessed and apologised for his crime. He accepted his jail sentence as contempt of court, and not, as occurred in Italy and Germany, a custodial sentence for denying the Holocaust.

Yes, FD, if a magistrate tells you to stop publishing something that's the subject of court proceedings, and you continue to drop your propaganda into people's letterboxes, I think a three week stint in the cooler's pretty fair, don't you?

As far as contempt of court sentences go, it's quite lenient.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #110 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 2:32pm
 
Raven wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:56pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:49pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights



no.


Seconded.

Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?


Only if it offends the Muselman.

FD wants Muslims banned at the airport. This would mean locking up anyone who says Allah Uakbar.

Freeeeedom, innit.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #111 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:05pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Are you suggesting that the ten year process of imprisoning Toben was automated?


No, I wasn't talking about Toben at all. I was talking about our first law officer (and the fact that not a single person that I know of took him to task) brazenly declaring that holocaust denial by default comes under racial vilification.

Have you ever heard the AG or anyone from the government declare that any opinion related to Islamic history is automatically a case of racial vilification?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #112 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:12pm
 
gandalf wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:05pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Are you suggesting that the ten year process of imprisoning Toben was automated?


No, I wasn't talking about Toben at all. I was talking about our first law officer (and the fact that not a single person that I know of took him to task) brazenly declaring that holocaust denial by default comes under racial vilification.

Have you ever heard the AG or anyone from the government declare that any opinion related to Islamic history is automatically a case of racial vilification?


There are better links behind paywalls.  But this will suffice to explain what Gandalf is saying for those unfamiliar.

Link.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #113 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:15pm
 
Karnal wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 2:32pm:
FD wants Muslims banned at the airport. This would mean locking up anyone who says Allah Uakbar.

Freeeeedom, innit.


More precisely, FD wants to single out people who "appear to be muslim", quiz them about their views on the sharia, then ban them if their views on freedom are incompatible with ours. And then he claims with a straight face it wouldn't be religious discrimination.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #114 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:21pm
 
Raven wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:13pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 2:59pm:
As Toben illustrates, you can be jailed if the HREOC escalates the matter to the federal court. Saying you cannot be jailed on the assumption you will agree to self censor in compliance with 18c does not meet the common sense test. Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust in contravention of 18c. 18c means you can now be jailed for exercising your fundamental human rights.

Do you support that Raven, or just offer idiotic excuses?


No it doesn't. You are either deliberately misinterpreting how the RDA works or you have no understanding of the law.

It is not a crime to breach 18c. The section says that it is unlawful for a person to do what is set out.

In law the term unlawful does not mean criminal, So while unlawful acts are prohibited by law, they are not a criminal offence under section 18C, which is in Part IIA of the Act. There is no offence under Part IIA of the RDA. There are no criminal sanctions attached to the conduct the Act is targeting. Nothing in the Act makes any form of vilification a criminal offence.

Section 26, which is in Part IV of the Act, says

Quote:
Except as expressly provided by this Part, nothing in this Act makes it an offence to do an act or agree with another person to do an act that is unlawful by reason of a provision of Part II or Part IIA.


Unlawful conduct is not illegal conduct. 'Unlawful' is conduct prohibited by law, an 'offence' is also conduct prohibited by law but at a more serious or higher level. There is a fundamental procedural difference – unlawful acts are pursued by the person or entity who is aggrieved, and illegal acts are pursued by the police in order to punish the perpetrator.

18C creates a form of civil liability Section 26 makes it clear that offending someone under section 18C is not a criminal offence.

Take Andrew Bolt, Bolt breached the Act but did not commit a crime.

Your friend Toben on the other hand did commit a crime but not by denying the Holocaust. Justice Branson ordered him to remove the material, he refused. Justice Lander said that Toben's behaviour amounted to criminal contempt.

Toben's original conduct, which contravened the Act itself, was not criminal.


Good explanation. I understand now that I was wrong to label a breach of the RDA as "criminal". Thanks for clarifying.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #115 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:25pm
 
gandalf wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
Karnal wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 2:32pm:
FD wants Muslims banned at the airport. This would mean locking up anyone who says Allah Uakbar.

Freeeeedom, innit.


More precisely, FD wants to single out people who "appear to be muslim", quiz them about their views on the sharia, then ban them if their views on freedom are incompatible with ours. And then he claims with a straight face it wouldn't be religious discrimination.


Well yes, but as you well know, freedom of speech and freedom of religion do not apply to one particular group.

And we all know who that is, don't we?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #116 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm
 
Gandalf did you make a submission on 18c?

Quote:
Seconded.


Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

Quote:
Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.
Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?


There were no meaningful consequences of Toben's actions. He did not incite violence or panic. He did not cause anyone to lose money. Nothing, other than outright rejection of the principles of freedom of speech, justifies jailing him for his opinion.

Freedom of speech literally means that no-one has the right not to be offended, yet offence was the only consequence.

Quote:
I am quite content to see 18C/D stay as is.  You have already conceded you can think of nothing you want to say which it precludes you from saying.


So you oppose freedom of speech then, and only support the right to say things that you or I might want to say? Can you even see the difference?

Quote:
Yes, FD, if a magistrate tells you to stop publishing something that's the subject of court proceedings, and you continue to drop your propaganda into people's letterboxes, I think a three week stint in the cooler's pretty fair, don't you?


They were not 'sub judice'. It was an ongoing blanket ban on Toben's violation of 18c, effectively criminalising 18c.

Quote:
As far as contempt of court sentences go, it's quite lenient.


Not really the point, is it Karnal? Would you support "quite lenient" sentencing for being a Muslim, or being gay?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #117 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm
 
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #118 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:28pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.


What do you think Gandalf? Purely semantic? Or just plain wrong?
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #119 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:28pm:
Dnarever wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.


What do you think Gandalf? Purely semantic? Or just plain wrong?


G already told you he disagrees with this this point, FD - at least 3 times.

You like asking questions, don't you?

Don't you?

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