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Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion (Read 11132 times)
freediver
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #75 - Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:11pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:50pm:
Quote:
What about insisting that it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust? Still technically correct?


I don't want Gandalf to get caught up in this. Those are  my words, not his, and it is me who should account for them, not him.

What I said was an accurate description at the time I used them in the context I used them.  As is ever your want, you now take them out of context, place them in isolation or in a different context, and laughingly point your haughty finger.

That is disingenuous.


I laughingly point my haughty finger at you Aussie while you try to squirm your way out of this and play tag team apologetics with Gandalf. Either take it back or own it. The context is still there for all to see. It is the same context we see here - you trying to distance the jailing of a fellow Australian for having the wrong opinion from the legislation that deprives us all of freedom of speech.

BTW, have you decided whether to allow yourself an opinion on what was the cause of the court order?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #76 - Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:11pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:50pm:
Quote:
What about insisting that it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust? Still technically correct?


I don't want Gandalf to get caught up in this. Those are  my words, not his, and it is me who should account for them, not him.

What I said was an accurate description at the time I used them in the context I used them.  As is ever your want, you now take them out of context, place them in isolation or in a different context, and laughingly point your haughty finger.

That is disingenuous.


I laughingly point my haughty finger at you Aussie while you try to squirm your way out of this and play tag team apologetics with Gandalf. Either take it back or own it. The context is still there for all to see. It is the same context we see here - you trying to distance the jailing of a fellow Australian for having the wrong opinion from the legislation that deprives us all of freedom of speech.

BTW, have you decided whether to allow yourself an opinion on what was the cause of the court order?


As I have said many times here, despite your silly tantrums, I own what I say and I said this:

Quote:
There you go yet again with deceptive language.  He was jailed for Contempt of Court.  His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust.


As for my opinion as to the cause of the Court order...it accords with what is set out in the links.


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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #77 - Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:35pm
 
What about this Aussie? Do you also stand by this?

Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:47am:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:41am:
Gerald Fredrick Töben (director and founder of the Adelaide Institute) has been jailed in South Australia, as well as the UK and Germany for denying the holocaust. This is one of the most ludicrous uses of the law in a supposedly free society - preventing people from questioning historical facts.


I am not here to defend any European Law.  18C/D has nothing to do with that.  And, it is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind on your part freediver to assert he was jailed in SA for denying the holocaust. 


Did I tell a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind, and then follow it up by 'disingenuously' quoting you saying so?

Do you still think 18c doesn't preclude anyone from saying anything? Do you agree with Brian Ross that we should target contempt of court legislation rather than 18c if we want to stop people being jailed for their opinion?

Why do you think that the contents of the court order are irrelevant to Toben's fate?

Quote:
As for my opinion as to the cause of the Court order...it accords with what is set out in the links.


Have you read them this time Aussie? Last time I don't think you even read the bits you copied and pasted.

Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2016 at 8:38am:
His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust.


What about this one Aussie? Stand by it also, or have I taken it out of context?
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« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:44pm by freediver »  

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #78 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 7:59am
 
The problem is that I gave you credit as someone who did not need everything spelled out in minutia.  I was wrong, hence it finally became necessary to be a semantic pedant and I posted:

Quote:
There you go yet again with deceptive language.  He was jailed for Contempt of Court.  His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust.




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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #79 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 12:52pm
 
Freediver you cannot be jailed under 18c
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #80 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 2:59pm
 
Once more Aussie I pointedly haught my laughing finger at you. You must be haugting pretty bad right now.

Quote:
The problem is that I gave you credit as someone who did not need everything spelled out in minutia.


Is that what you mean by a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind? What about the other quotes I provided above? Do you also stand by them, or are you backpedaling to the point where you will only acknowledge one of your previous posts on the issue? Wise move Aussie. I would not want that idiocy on my record either.

Quote:
Freediver you cannot be jailed under 18c


As Toben illustrates, you can be jailed if the HREOC escalates the matter to the federal court. Saying you cannot be jailed on the assumption you will agree to self censor in compliance with 18c does not meet the common sense test. Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust in contravention of 18c. 18c means you can now be jailed for exercising your fundamental human rights.

Do you support that Raven, or just offer idiotic excuses?
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John Smith
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #81 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:08pm
 
...
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #82 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:22pm
 
Quote:
18c means you can now be jailed for exercising your fundamental human rights.


Can you show us the legislation than outlines the penalties, FD?

Cheers.

Quote:
He has served three jail sentences: in 1999 for seven months in Germany under Section 130 “defaming the memory of the dead”; in 2008 for 50 days in the United Kingdom when he was transiting through Heathrow and the Germans wanted him under the European Arrest Warrant, which the court declared invalid; in 2009 for three months in South Australia for contempt of court, for which he apologized to the court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Fredrick_T%C3%B6ben
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #83 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:26pm
 
Quote:
Do you also stand by them...


You've asked that many times, and each time, I have told you I stand by my every word.

Karnal asked you a question.  Will there be an answer 'in the fullness of time?'  Or, will you answer him as quickly as I answer you?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #84 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:42pm:
What about the conclusion that 18c does not infringe on freedom of speech because it was not the cause of his jailing? Is that still semantics Gandalf?


Did Aussie say that? I haven't seen that quote. Obviously 18c infringes upon freedom of speech when it is used to justify the outright banning of holocaust denial under the guise of 'racial vilification' - as our first law officer himself insists it can. But the funniest thing here is that I was having a similar argument with you over 2 years ago - and it was you who was siding with the "18c doesn't forbid holocaust denial" argument. So I'm glad you've turned around on the subject - I think I'll take the credit for that.

Quote:
What about insisting that it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust? Still technically correct? Are you willing to defend what Aussie actually said, or are you simply determined to rescue the idiocy of a fellow apologist with your "both wrong and both right" nonsense?


I've already said Aussie's argument doesn't pass the common sense test and that he is playing silly semantic games, like you always do. Its almost as if he is your protege. I'm hardly defending him FD.
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Karnal
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #85 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:41pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:26pm:
Quote:
Do you also stand by them...


You've asked that many times, and each time, I have told you I stand by my every word.

Karnal asked you a question.  Will there be an answer 'in the fullness of time?'  Or, will you answer him as quickly as I answer you?


I think FD prefers to discuss sustainable fishing and carbon taxes, Aussie.

We'll have to ask him a question about that.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #86 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:45pm
 
gandalf wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:37pm:
But the funniest thing here is that I was having a similar argument with you over 2 years ago - and it was you who was siding with the "18c doesn't forbid holocaust denial" argument. So I'm glad you've turned around on the subject - I think I'll take the credit for that.


Impossible. FD is never influenced by the Muselman, G.

Apart from Abu.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #87 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 4:58pm
 
By gaoling him you make him some sort of martyr for extremist right idiots...when in fact all he  is an ill informed wanker
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #88 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 5:02pm
 
red baron wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 4:58pm:
By gaoling him you make him some sort of martyr for extremist right idiots...


Now now, Red, the only person standing up for this chap is FD.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #89 - Dec 13th, 2016 at 5:10pm
 
I hate racists but I hate the muzzling of free speech even more. Our nation went to war with Germany over just such principles.
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