Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
the poster children for 18c (Read 2478 times)
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 44832
Gender: female
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #15 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 9:41pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 8:51pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 8:23pm:
Are you hoping that if you keep starting theads on this, the facts will eventually change to suit your argument?






This is a typical FD quote bomb.  He carefully selects posts, isolates them out of context and then posts them as a collage,


That's true, Aussie. FD's an artist of the highest caliber.

Another masterpiece.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 35538
I like fish
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #16 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 9:51pm
 
gandalf wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:49pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:33pm:
What do you think I meant by that Gandalf?

Did you make a submission on 18c?


Are you saying you meant something different to what you said? Was Toben jailed for his opinion?


The specific question I was asking was not about the reason for Toben's jailing.

Quote:
This is a typical FD quote bomb.  He carefully selects posts, isolates them out of context and then posts them as a collage, purporting to be integral and in context, in one of these dumbarse 'bombs.'  Really stupid and so obviously disingenuous.


Aussie you have repeatedly accused me of misrepresenting you by quoting you, insisting that your words meant something different in a different time and that the context was also somehow different (despite your complaints about the number of threads on the same topic).

You never explained how the time and context changed the meaning of your words. Would you like to enlighten us? Or is your standard response to accuse people of lying whenever you are caught out?

Karnal wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 5:01pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:45pm:
Quote:
It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots


That's what freedom f speech means Barnacle.



Actually, it's the eopposite. The defence of freedom of speech is normally used when speaking out against the powerful. Racists and bigots use their speech against the powerless.

Freeeeedom, innit.


Can you give some examples of speech that is covered by freedom of speech? Do you think for example that Toben is part of the powerful majority? Gandalf seems to think it is the Jews' fault. Are we only allowed to use freedom of speech to defend Muslims, dirty hippies and people who cannot make the mental leap from being jailed to being denied freedom?
Back to top
 

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 26925
Gender: male
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #17 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 10:01pm
 
Your words FD:

....freedom of speech.....

Please define exactly what you mean.
Back to top
 

And Indian women aren't exactly LBFMs..yuk.  ~ GordyL.
Nicole Page 2016 exhorts that we kill every man woman and child, who is a Muslim.
Post # 14 here ~  http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=14
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 44832
Gender: female
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #18 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 10:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 9:51pm:
gandalf wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:49pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:33pm:
What do you think I meant by that Gandalf?

Did you make a submission on 18c?


Are you saying you meant something different to what you said? Was Toben jailed for his opinion?


The specific question I was asking was not about the reason for Toben's jailing.

Quote:
This is a typical FD quote bomb.  He carefully selects posts, isolates them out of context and then posts them as a collage, purporting to be integral and in context, in one of these dumbarse 'bombs.'  Really stupid and so obviously disingenuous.


Aussie you have repeatedly accused me of misrepresenting you by quoting you, insisting that your words meant something different in a different time and that the context was also somehow different (despite your complaints about the number of threads on the same topic).

You never explained how the time and context changed the meaning of your words. Would you like to enlighten us? Or is your standard response to accuse people of lying whenever you are caught out?

Karnal wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 5:01pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:45pm:
Quote:
It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots


That's what freedom f speech means Barnacle.



Actually, it's the eopposite. The defence of freedom of speech is normally used when speaking out against the powerful. Racists and bigots use their speech against the powerless.

Freeeeedom, innit.


Can you give some examples of speech that is covered by freedom of speech? Do you think for example that Toben is part of the powerful majority? Gandalf seems to think it is the Jews' fault. Are we only allowed to use freedom of speech to defend Muslims, dirty hippies and people who cannot make the mental leap from being jailed to being denied freedom?


Now that's a question.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Setanta
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Peace \/ man

Posts: 9803
Northern NSW
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #19 - Dec 17th, 2016 at 11:54pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 10:01pm:
Your words FD:

....freedom of speech.....

Please define exactly what you mean.


Want mine?

No political speech should be encumbered by law.
Back to top
 

nu ninda an ezzateni watar ma ekuteni
 
IP Logged
 
Ye Grappler
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 28448
Mid-North Coast NSW
Gender: male
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #20 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 12:26am
 
Setanta wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 11:54pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 10:01pm:
Your words FD:

....freedom of speech.....

Please define exactly what you mean.


Want mine?

No political speech should be encumbered by law.


But always remember that the body politic is a body that makes the laws etc - and a policy of that body politic of mass extermination or persecution of a specified social group** etc is unlawful illegal ***and should properly cause a calling out of the palace guard... and speaking on such a policy is equally illegal.

Now we all know that various policies of mass extermination of rights and livelihoods have been in place here for forty years... over to you....

**such actions are defined as Crimes Against Humanity by The Hague... yet entire demographics here can be discriminated against and not a word said..... so you need to be always wary of your 'body politic', since it has to power to prevent such things, but here, now - it chooses not to, and instead actively engages in them.  Thus it is complicit and even guilty of initiating these policies..... or at the very least suffering a depraved indifference.....

You know the policies I mean......

*** be wary of confusing 'unlawful' with 'illegal' - 'unlawful' simply means there is no law to cover it at this time - 'illegal' means that it does not accord with the Rule of Law.... thus clearly, many policies of recent advent are illegal but not unlawful, often for the simple reason that there is no apparatus or opportunity for them to be challenged ... affirmative action being but one among them...  Cool

(aced 'em again!).....  Wink
Back to top
« Last Edit: Dec 18th, 2016 at 12:32am by Ye Grappler »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 35538
I like fish
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #21 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 7:46am
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:35pm:
Another thread on 18c?

This just supports what I said in the opening post of my own thread.
It seems people are more concerned with their right to be racists and bigots than they are about ensuring the Government is held to account.

The draconian "special intelligence operation" legislation would never get 5 posts running at once


Barnacle, you claim to have started the other thread out of genuine support for freedom of speech, but have spent more time downplaying a more direct and explicit attack on freedom of speech. Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical to you?


Aussie I went in search of an explanation of how a "different time" (1 week) and "different context" (a thread you insist is on the same topic), somehow makes it misleading for me to quote you directly. I could not find any. What I did find was a rich vein of highly concentrated stupid.

Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 9:28am:
What do you want to say, freediver, which 18C and D precludes you from saying?


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 9:50am:
No need for change.  It does not inhibit you at all.


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:17am:
What is that anyone wants to say that 18C/D prevents them from saying?


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:47am:
And, it is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind on your part freediver to assert he was jailed in SA for denying the holocaust.


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:30pm:
It is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind, freediver, to assert he was jailed for denying the holocaust.  Would you like the relevant links to the actual cases?
What is also relevant is that you must rely on bullshit to support your contention.  Telling.


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:58pm:
So, your retraction and apology will be in your next post?

Quote:
Pausing there, it follows from the above that there is no room for dispute that Dr Toben has spent time in prison in Australia for criminal contempt constituted by the publication of material found to have racially vilified the Jewish people and which conveyed imputations including that there was serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred.


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 1:20pm:
It sure does.  You lied in the most scurrilous manner. 


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 1:26pm:
He was done because he lied on relevant issues.....a lie can hardly ne made in good faith, can it.


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 1:36pm:
See, he lied, so lost the capacity to use the defences in 18D.


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 6:26pm:
[quote author=freediver link=1480201951/20#20 date=1480234491]
Read the rest of the sentence Aussie. What form did the criminal contempt take? Or are you seriously suggesting that because the name of the crime was 'criminal contempt' rather than 'denying the holocaust' that he was therefor not jailed for denying the holocaust?

Yes I am.  He was ordered by a competent Court not to do stuff (irrelevant to his eventual fate what that stuff was) and he defied the Order of the Court. 
You lied to pursue your own little pathetic crusade you say you have mounted for others and not yourself, one you floated here, (even with a sticky no-one else can use here to ensure prominence) to push a barrow of complete bullshit.


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:11pm:
Perhaps you can have a go on this.  What is that you want to say that 18C/D prevents you from saying?


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:22pm:
Quote:
So let me get this straight. The man committed contempt of court by denying the holocaust and was jailed for it,

Read the Judgement I gave you the link to.  He committed a contempt of Court by defying an Order of a competent Court.  When will that get through to you?
Quote:
....but that is different to being jailed for denying the holocaust?

Indeed it is.


Aussie wrote on Nov 30th, 2016 at 5:10pm:
If you are referring to Tobin, he was jailed in Australia for defying a Court Order, and for nothing else.  The embarrassment is yours freediver.  You simply refuse to acknowledge the truth, as usual.


Aussie wrote on Dec 1st, 2016 at 1:46pm:
Your are posting absolute garbage.....what you say is totally incorrect, in Law.  Do you think you ought be allowed to mislead people on what is a simple legal concept?


Aussie wrote on Dec 1st, 2016 at 1:57pm:
Quote:
In case you have forgotten already, you were attempting to claim that getting jailed for contempt of court that takes the specific form of denying the holocaust is somehow different from getting jailed for denying the holocaust.

Correct.  You said he was jailed for denying the holocaust.  He was not.  He was jailed for defying a Court Order, i.e. contempt of Court.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Dec 18th, 2016 at 9:23am by freediver »  

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 35538
I like fish
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #22 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 9:32am
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 2nd, 2016 at 5:12pm:
Quote:
Likewise the definition of a court order specifically includes the order given.....

The bloke was jailed for contempt of Court, and for nothing else.  What was his contempt?  He defied a Court Order.
He had already published his denial of holocaust rubbish, and was not jailed for doing so.  He was ordered to cease publishing that material, an Order he defied, and was then jailed for contempt.


Aussie wrote on Dec 2nd, 2016 at 7:51pm:
Finally...after how many pages, you get it correct:
Quote:
So he was not jailed for denying the holocaust. He was jailed for not ceasing to deny the holocaust?

....as he was ordered to do by the Court.


Aussie wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:49pm:
Tobin was jailed for defying a Court Order.  Contempt of Court.  That is what he was convicted of and jailed for.  If you have proof otherwise, let's see it.


Aussie wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:58pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:50pm:
Can you clarify that when you accused me of lying about whether the man was jailed for denying the holocaust (without explanation) you merely meant that he was jailed for refusing to cease denying the holocaust?

How many times must I do that for you freediver?   I have agreed with that.
What you originally said (and it was a lie) was that he was jailed for denying the holocaust.  Are you now denying you said that, freediver?
Quote:
Why is it that the evidence you introduced does not make the same distinction? Did you introduce a lie as evidence?

No, I did not.  I highlighted your lie, one you offered to suit, yet again, your personal agenda.


Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2016 at 8:38am:
There you go yet again with deceptive language.  He was jailed for Contempt of Court.  His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust.
How hard is that to understand?


Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 6:11pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 5:57pm:
Gandalf, do you agree that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust, or do you take the learned Aussie's view that he was jailed for Contempt of Court by defying a Court Order not refraining from denying the holocaust (and anything else is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind)

I've corrected the question so that I am not verballed, and to make it accurate in terms of what I said, and not what FD wishes I had said.


Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:15pm:
Quote:
After agreeing with all this, do you still insist it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest he was jailed for denying the holocaust?

Yes.



Karnal wrote on Nov 28th, 2016 at 4:01pm:
Post-2007 FD wants the Freeeeedom to tell porkies about Boongs a la Bolt.


Karnal wrote on Nov 30th, 2016 at 2:13pm:
This is FD's sole reason for defending free speech: he wants to institutionalise hate speech against Muslims.



Raven wrote on Nov 30th, 2016 at 6:03pm:
As a society we must balance these rights, which is why 18D is a "get out of jail free" card.
It is a measure of Andrew Bolt's egregiousness in his two columns that he could run afoul of these expansive exemptions.




Karnal wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:44pm:
Denying the biggest genocide of the 20th century is far more than offending the thin-skinned. I'm not sure that denying history should be illegal. But given what such propaganda is capable of achieving, I'm not so unhappy that it is.


Karnal wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:19pm:
Here you go, FD. This is what your Freeeeedom encourages: the denial of history; the denial of genocide; Nazi apologism.



mothra wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:03pm:
Publicising racial vilification is not merely holding an opinion, now is it?
I have opinions on all sorts of things. Never been jailed for any of them although some are highly contentious.


mothra wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:15pm:
mothra wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:12pm:
He was not jailed for holding an opinion.
so why then?


I and many others have already said it.

He was jailed for contempt of court.

Back to top
 

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 35538
I like fish
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #23 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 9:35am
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:00pm:
Belgarion wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:59pm:
mothra wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 3:38pm:
He did far more than hold an opinion. He told people about it. That is how Mothra knows that 18c is not a threat to freedom of speech. All he had to do was keep his opinion to himself.


No, he could share it. People say on here all sorts of things that contravene 18c.

Are they prosecuted?

No, they're usually backed up.

Publicising something under your own name and inviting public comment that vilifies people is a direct breach of 18 and if indefensible under 18d can be ordered to be taken down.

You cannot go to jail for that opinion though. You can only be asked not to publicise it.

How is this a difficult concept for you?


And if you do publicise it, you can go to gaol. Do you not see that for all the weasel words saying otherwise, the law can imprison someone for expressing an opinion.


Incorrect.  Read the Act.

This is a tad long....but worth the read.  You will better understand why you are incorrect.

Link.



Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:43pm:
Belgarion wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:36pm:
Should have read  "Toben was still in gaol."   he was gaoled for contempt of a court which ordered him to stop publishing his opinions. In a free society no court should be able do do such a thing.


Let's say you are in front of a Judge who has issued you with a fine.  Do you reckon you'd get away with "You're an arsehole.  You're a fruitloop, a joke who would not know chit from clay.  The legal system is as corrupt as you are."

What do you reckon would happen next?


Aussie wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 9:54pm:
Quote:
If the law is being misused as it was in Tobins case then I would continue to object and express my opinion.


Neither you nor Tobin get to select when you reckon Laws are being misused.  That is for the Courts.



Dnarever wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 7:27am:
He was imprisoned for contempt and he was guilty. It has nothing to do with expressing his opinion. That is a fact.
There is no word play or obfuscation involved, straight plain direct English is the only requirement.


Dnarever wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:57am:
Does anyone know what the problem is with 18c ?
Or what the suggested fix actually is ?


Dnarever wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:14am:
I don't agree that it is a freedom of speech issue at all.



John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:42am:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:40am:
Do you think the guy who got jailed for denying the holocaust had a problem with the laws?
Is it OK to destroy freedom of speech if no-one cares about the victims?

I'm not familiar with the case so can't comment on it specifically.


John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:37am:
And I don't have a problem with 18c ... it's been around for 20 yrs and no one had a problem until the retards fan boy, Bolt, got in trouble for lying.


John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:10pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 6:51pm:
Are you suggesting Toben's jailing had nothing to do with 18c?

it had to do with being in contempt of court.
Why don't you petition to have contempt of court laws changed or revoked?



The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:34am:
And do those who oppose 18c actually realize that 18D protects their freedom of speech.


The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:45am:
The only similar case I could find was Gerald Fredrick Töben who was jailed in 2009 for contempt of court
Back to top
 

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Bored with racism/Islamophobia/
Xenophobia

Posts: 12092
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #24 - Dec 18th, 2016 at 5:18pm
 
...
Back to top
 

"To argue with a person who has renounced reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
- Thomas Paine
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 35538
I like fish
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #25 - Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:41pm
 
Brian do you think Toben should have been jailed for his opinion?
Back to top
 

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
WWW  
IP Logged
 
John Smith
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 53687
Gender: male
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #26 - Dec 22nd, 2016 at 2:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:41pm:
Brian do you think Toben should have been jailed for his opinion?


he was jailed for contempt of court.
Back to top
 

REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
IP Logged
 
Brian Ross
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Bored with racism/Islamophobia/
Xenophobia

Posts: 12092
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #27 - Dec 22nd, 2016 at 3:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:41pm:
Brian do you think Toben should have been jailed for his opinion?


He was gaoled for contravening a court order, FD.  No matter how you attempt to dress this, that was why he was gaoled.    Roll Eyes
Back to top
 

"To argue with a person who has renounced reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
- Thomas Paine
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Raven
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1517
Around
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #28 - Dec 22nd, 2016 at 3:57pm
 
Freediver is unable to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

His inability to understand how the law works means he will continue to post inaccurate statements in threads such as this
Back to top
 

Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Above all else remember this, God is an atheist.
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 44832
Gender: female
Re: the poster children for 18c
Reply #29 - Dec 22nd, 2016 at 8:03pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 3:37pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:41pm:
Brian do you think Toben should have been jailed for his opinion?


He was gaoled for contravening a court order, FD.  No matter how you attempt to dress this, that was why he was gaoled.    Roll Eyes


Toben acknowledged this himself. He even apologised for it.

Toben is a serial Holocaust-denial law tester. He did the same in two European countries. He acknowledged that Australia did not jail him for denying the Holocaust, as they did in Europe.

FD disagrees with his very own martyr.

Freeeeeedom, innit.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print