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Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion (Read 16089 times)
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Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:36pm
 
Gerald Fredrick Töben is an Adelaide man who was jailed for denying the holocaust, in contravention of section 18c of the racial discrimination act. The Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission first ruled against Toben in 2000. It took another 9 years for them to get him jailed for denying the holocaust by escalating the matter to the federal court. Toben's crime was to continue to publish holocaust denial material from his website (the Adelaide Institute).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Fredrick_T%C3%B6ben

Some members here are so desperate to defend section 18c that they have started denying it is the reason for his jailing, in particular Aussie, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and the usual apologists (Gandalf being a curious exception). Aussie's explanation of this is classic apologetics. Aussie actually agrees that Toben was jailed for not refraining from denying the holocaust, but insists it is "a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to say instead that he was jailed for denying the holocaust. To support this, he presented evidence that concluded that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust (without Aussie's absurd distinction that he was jailed for not refraining from doing so). John Smith seems to think that the problem with 18c is best resolved by removing contempt of court legislation rather than 18c itself.

This is as good a reason as any to defend freedom of speech. If not, you leave yourself at the mercy of this sort of idiocy.

John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:56am:
Does FD think we should revoke 'contempt of court' legislation too?

It would seem that if his concern was Tobin, that should be the legislation he should be targeting, instead of lying about 18c.


The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:26am:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:07am:
That's the one. The contempt took the form of denying the holocaust, in violation of 18c.



But he was actually jailed for contempt of court. I'm glad that's cleared up.


Dnarever wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 12:50pm:
18c is more about penalising the misuse or abuse of freedom of speech

You are not going to claim that what Bold did was ok are you ?


Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 2:26pm:
Seems to me that the critics of 18c like to tell lies about past court cases that had absolutely nothing to do with section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act.   I wonder why?  Do you think lying?    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:15pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:10pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 6:11pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 5:57pm:
Sure. Has anyone suggested an alternative means of arriving at damages?

Gandalf, do you agree that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust, or do you take the learned Aussie's view that he was jailed for Contempt of Court by defying a Court Order not refraining from denying the holocaust (and anything else is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind)


I've corrected the question so that I am not verballed, and to make it accurate in terms of what I said, and not what FD wishes I had said.


Your own words Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Dec 2nd, 2016 at 7:51pm:
Finally...after how many pages, you get it correct:

Quote:
So he was not jailed for denying the holocaust. He was jailed for not ceasing to deny the holocaust?


....as he was ordered to do by the Court.


Your own words again Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:58pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:50pm:
Can you clarify that when you accused me of lying about whether the man was jailed for denying the holocaust (without explanation) you merely meant that he was jailed for refusing to cease denying the holocaust?


How many times must I do that for you freediver?   I have agreed with that.


The evidence you introduced Aussie:

Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:58pm:
Pausing there, it follows from the above that there is no room for dispute that Dr Toben has spent time in prison in Australia for criminal contempt constituted by the publication of material found to have racially vilified the Jewish people and which conveyed imputations including that there was serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred.


After agreeing with all this, do you still insist it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest he was jailed for denying the holocaust?


Yes.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #1 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:44pm
 
And here we go.....the
THIRD
Thread on the same Topic.


If anyone wants the truth and not FD's spin......

Link.

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #2 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm
 
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #3 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #4 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:13pm
 
What are you suggesting? That I misrepresented you? Talked to you? Tricked you into saying something?

Here is Aussie promising to give up pushing his BS:

Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:27pm:
Oh.....I see now.  FD has stickied this Thread over the entire Forum!!!!!!!!!  Sorry, FD.  I'm not playing anymore.

It is a political topic having nothing to do with any of the Sub-Forums.

No more from me.

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #5 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:13pm:
What are you suggesting? That I misrepresented you? Talked to you? Tricked you into saying something?

Here is Aussie promising to give up pushing his BS:

Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:27pm:
Oh.....I see now.  FD has stickied this Thread over the entire Forum!!!!!!!!!  Sorry, FD.  I'm not playing anymore.

It is a political topic having nothing to do with any of the Sub-Forums.

No more from me.



Yeas, I did say that, but then, I was unable to sit quiet while you continued unabated to misrepresent what Tobin was jailed in Australia for.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #6 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:23pm
 
What do you think was the cause of the court order Aussie?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #7 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:23pm:
What do you think was the cause of the court order Aussie?



In this, you will find the cause.

Link.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #8 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:35pm
 
And here:

Link.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #9 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   Roll Eyes
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Quote:
Quote:
Answer the question, [you know who].   How many Muslims do you know personally?

I don't know Brian. I only know the religious views of a fraction of the people I know.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #10 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:16pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   Roll Eyes


And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?

I'm sure you are anti-firearm and blame the tool when someone uses one badly. When someone uses another tool, law, should not it be viewed the same way? Should that tool be available?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #11 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:29pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:25pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:23pm:
What do you think was the cause of the court order Aussie?



In this, you will find the cause.

Link.


I was asking what you think Aussie. What do you think was the cause of the court order?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #12 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:32pm
 
Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:16pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   Roll Eyes


And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?

I'm sure you are anti-firearm and blame the tool when someone uses one badly. When someone uses another tool, law, should not it be viewed the same way? Should that tool be available?


Yet the ironic thing is that Tobin himself tried to inhibit the freedom of speech enjoyed by others whom he sued for defaming him as being a holocaust denier!
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #13 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:29pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:25pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:23pm:
What do you think was the cause of the court order Aussie?



In this, you will find the cause.

Link.


I was asking what you think Aussie. What do you think was the cause of the court order?


What does it matter what I think was the cause when I have provided the links to the horse's mouth.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #14 - Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:36pm
 
Are you now afraid to have an opinion on the cause of Toben's jailing? That's a bit rich for someone who has spent a dozen pages accusing me of lying about it.
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