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Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion (Read 14882 times)
Dnarever
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #120 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:28pm:
Dnarever wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.


What do you think Gandalf? Purely semantic? Or just plain wrong?


Yes Gandalf blame sharing and semantics are just plain wrong.
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John Smith
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #121 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #122 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:43pm
 
Karnal wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:28pm:
Dnarever wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.


What do you think Gandalf? Purely semantic? Or just plain wrong?


G already told you he disagrees with this this point, FD - at least 3 times.

You like asking questions, don't you?

Don't you?




again and again and again and again
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #123 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:22pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them


I am not asking you whether he is capable of saying these things or suffering the consequences. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

It's a simple question John. No need to tie yourself in knots over it.
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Karnal
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #124 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:22pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them


I am not asking you whether he is capable of saying these things or suffering the consequences. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

It's a simple question John. No need to tie yourself in knots over it.


What did he say, FD?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #125 - Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:22pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them


I am not asking you whether he is capable of saying these things or suffering the consequences. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

It's a simple question John. No need to tie yourself in knots over it.


I answered the question. He's free to say what he likes. He's also free to follow court orders, or not. Just don't cry when he suffers consequences for it.
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #126 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:28pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:22pm:
John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them


I am not asking you whether he is capable of saying these things or suffering the consequences. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

It's a simple question John. No need to tie yourself in knots over it.


I answered the question. He's free to say what he likes. He's also free to follow court orders, or not. Just don't cry when he suffers consequences for it.


No you didn't. You dodged it, as usual. Whether you support his right depends on what you think the legal consequences should be. Despite the many threads on this issue, none of the people trying to make idiotic excuses for 18c have been willing to give their opinion on the fundamental issues. Why are you all so loathe to own your own opinions? Hopefully it is because you are ashamed of them.

So how about instead of me endlessly trying to dumb questions down to the point that the apologists can answer, you just give a straight answer? Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #127 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:28pm:
Why are you all so loathe to own your own opinions? Hopefully it is because you are ashamed of them.

So how about instead of me endlessly trying to dumb questions down to the point that the apologists can answer, you just give a straight answer?


Good point, FD. What did Toben say that got him in trouble?

Do you think his conviction should be overturned?

You must have missed these questions. You couldn't possibly be avoiding to give a straight answer.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #128 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 2:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Quote:
Seconded.


Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?


Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?

Lets look at Freedom of Speech in Australia

A well established principle of Common Law is that Parliament is presumed not to have  intended to limit fundamental rights, unless it indicates this intention in clear terms. This includes freedom of speech

The Australian Constitution does not explicitly protect freedom of expression. However, the High Court has held that an implied freedom of political communication exists as an indispensable part of the system of representative and responsible government created by the Constitution. Free speech operates as a freedom from government restraint, rather than a right conferred directly on individuals.

Even the very champions of free speech, the USA, have a ton of things you are legally not allowed to say. The example that everyone is familiar with is you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded place. You can't incite people to violence, you can't slander (in speech) or libel (in writing) someone, and you can't say things that would make any reasonable person punch you in the face, because them's fightin' words.

Sometimes Raven loves how the Yanks say things.

The fighting words doctrine was established by the US Supreme Court by  a 9–0 decision in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire.

Chaplinsky told a New Hampshire town marshal who was attempting to prevent him from preaching that he was "a God-damned racketeer" and "a damned fascist" and was arrested. The court upheld the arrest and wrote in its decision that

Quote:
There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting words" those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.


All he did was call the bloke a few names and got arrested and the US Supreme Court held that there was a limit to free spech.

Your man Toben says one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century never happened and all he got was a court order telling him to take it off his website.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #129 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:28pm:
No you didn't. You dodged it, as usual. Whether you support his right depends on what you think the legal consequences should be. Despite the many threads on this issue, none of the people trying to make idiotic excuses for 18c have been willing to give their opinion on the fundamental issues. Why are you all so loathe to own your own opinions? Hopefully it is because you are ashamed of them.

So how about instead of me endlessly trying to dumb questions down to the point that the apologists can answer, you just give a straight answer? Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



answers there. TWICE.

all you have to do is read it.
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

TONY ABBOTT: Exactly right. We will keep the commitments that we make.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #130 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 4:33pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:28pm:
No you didn't. You dodged it, as usual. Whether you support his right depends on what you think the legal consequences should be. Despite the many threads on this issue, none of the people trying to make idiotic excuses for 18c have been willing to give their opinion on the fundamental issues. Why are you all so loathe to own your own opinions? Hopefully it is because you are ashamed of them.

So how about instead of me endlessly trying to dumb questions down to the point that the apologists can answer, you just give a straight answer? Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



answers there. TWICE.

all you have to do is read it.


Yes, JS, but FD said you dodged it as usual. Who to believe?

It's your word against FD's.
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #131 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 5:45pm
 
Karnal wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 4:33pm:
Yes, JS, but FD said you dodged it as usual. Who to believe?



ohh he knows. He's just not happy if he doesn't ask the same question at least a dozen times.
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #132 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm
 
Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?

Quote:
answers there. TWICE.


You dodged the question twice. Three times now. Try giving a straight answer this time. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

Quote:
He's also free to follow court orders, or not.


If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it. This is pretty simple stuff John.

Raven and John, would you say this level of idiocy is typical of people who support 18c?
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John Smith
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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #133 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock. Do you think the public should be free to pick and choose which court orders we obey and which we ignore FD?
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REPORTER: The condition of the budget will not be an excuse for breaking promises?

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Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Reply #134 - Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:19pm
 
John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm:
freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock.


No poo indeed. You would have to be pretty stupid to get that one wrong wouldn't you John? On an unrelated matter, can you explain the meaning of this?

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:
He's also free to follow court orders, or not.

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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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