Australian Politics Forum - Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers

freediver

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #30 - Dec 20^th, 2019 at 7:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 1:24pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 11:33am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 9:27am:

freediver wrote on Dec 19^th, 2019 at 6:58pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 19^th, 2019 at 8:19am:

This is a state law which was apparently introduced in 2016. Most states now have some penalty for this sort of thing.

Malaysia certainly has regressed in the last couple of decades or so.

Yes I was wrong if I ever held up Malaysia as some bastion of religious moderation. Mea culpa.

What about the other two - Indonesia and Turkey?

Well, I could do what you do and cite a single incident in a country of hundreds of millions, to conclude that the country is an anti-freedom "oppressive shithole" - and ignore every single piece of evidence that disagrees with that... and then spend the next 40 pages pretending that it wasn't based on a single incident, all the while refusing to actually cite all this other evidence you assure me exists.

But I think I'll pass.

So jailing a politician for blasphemy doesn't stop Muslims holding up a country as an example of progressive Islam?

No. In exactly the same way as jailing someone for holocaust denial doesn't stop you (or most other people) holding up Australia as a bastion of free speech.

Every incident is a single incident if you insist on wearing blinkers Gandalf. Malaysia for example has only jailed people for skipping prayers and going on a picnic instead on one occasion.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 3:54pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 2:54pm:

Allah states, the holy and inerrant Koran states, ...that 1/ every disbeliever is under a sentence of death,

Of course its incorrect. It is directly contradicted by the inerrant Koran:

"The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." 18:29

Let there be no compulsion in religion 2:256

Also, kill the infidel.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #31 - Dec 23^rd, 2019 at 8:40am

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 7:20pm:

Every incident is a single incident if you insist on wearing blinkers Gandalf.

You argue that Indonesia is an oppressive shithole and cite the single incident of a politician being jailed for blasphemy as proof.

I merely apply the exact same logic and say that Australia is an oppressive shithole by citing a single incident of someone being jailed for denying the holocaust to prove it.

If you can show me why one is valid but not the other I'm all ears.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #32 - Dec 23^rd, 2019 at 8:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2019 at 8:40am:

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 7:20pm:

Every incident is a single incident if you insist on wearing blinkers Gandalf.

You argue that Indonesia is an oppressive shithole and cite the single incident of a politician being jailed for blasphemy as proof.

I merely apply the exact same logic and say that Australia is an oppressive shithole by citing a single incident of someone being jailed for denying the holocaust to prove it.

If you can show me why one is valid but not the other I'm all ears.

I only gave you one example from Malaysia this time Gandalf. Of course, I had given you plenty from both Malaysia and Indonesia before, but you always managed to put your blinkers on and insist that each in turn was just one example. So why did you suddenly remove your blinkers in the case of Malaysia, but not for the other countries?

Here's one that Yadda prepared earlier:

Unmerry Christmas: Christians in West Sumatra banned from holding Christmas service

https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2019/12/19/unmerry-christmas-christians-in-west-sumatra-banned-from-holding-christmas-service.html

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rhino Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17179 Gender:	Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers Reply #33 - Dec 23^rd, 2019 at 10:26pm There is zero dispute Indonesia is becoming increasingly fundamentalist and are increasingly persecuting Christians and other minorities. Jokowi also picked as his running mate and now Vice resident Ma'ruf Amin who is a hard line Islamic fundamentalist.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50549 At my desk.	Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers Reply #34 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 7:20am I think I understand why Gandalf was suddenly able to see the light on Malaysia. It's not because of the institutionalised oppression of non-Muslims. It's because they also put Muslims in jail. That what makes them "not progressive". He still doesn't actually care about what they do to non-Muslims.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #35 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 8:49am

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2019 at 8:32pm:

I only gave you one example from Malaysia this time Gandalf. Of course, I had given you plenty from both Malaysia and Indonesia before, but you always managed to put your blinkers on and insist that each in turn was just one example. So why did you suddenly remove your blinkers in the case of Malaysia, but not for the other countries?

You said Indonesia was an oppressive Islamofascist shithole and cited the single incident of Ahok being jailed as your only evidence. You then spent the next 30 or so pages yelling and screaming that it wasn't the only evidence, all the while never actually producing anything else. It looks like you are up for another 30 pages of the same routine.

Meanwhile in the same discussion you made an even more idiotic assertion that muslims can say whatever they want. Incredibly, you tried to continue this claim even after I cited an article that described muslims literally being jailed for intimidating and threatening people online. You were equally dismissive of another case in which a muslim was arrested for calling on ahok supporters to be spat on. Somehow, in FD universe, neither of these cases were examples of muslims not being allowed to "say whatever they want".

So thats where we were at with the Indonesia discussion. Forgive me if I prefer not to resume that head-banging-on-wall exercise.

As for Malaysia, so far we are thankfully not yet discussing whether or not the entire country is an "oppressive shithole" based on this one case - as you were in the Ahok discussion. I volunteered that Malaysia is degenerating freedom-wise based on a whole host of evidence, not just this case. Malaysia and Indonesia are chalk and cheese democracy and freedom wise. Indonesia has quite a well-earned reputation as one of the most progressive and tolerant muslim nations. This shows up in your favourite PEW surveys, as well as their consistent and continual sidelining of Islamist parties in their democracy (unlike Malaysia). This reality held up in the last round of national and regional elections earlier this year - this despite the Ahok furore and the perception that Islamists were in the ascendancy. You and Yadda will obviously focus on non-events like a tiny village being told they have to celebrate christmas in the neighbouring village, as is your wont. While of course ignoring the important issues and trends like the makeup of Indonesia's parliament, and the people's fierce defence of their secular constitution whenever it is put under threat.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #36 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 9:22am

Quote:

You said Indonesia was an oppressive Islamofascist shithole and cited the single incident of Ahok being jailed as your only evidence.

I said that others had also been jailed for blasphemy, and we spent the rest of the thread going round in circles with you insisting I only gave one example, and me pointing out that others had also been jailed. For some reason I could never get that through to you. Not to mention all the other issues in Indonesia that have been discussed here over the years.

You have your blinkers firmly on Gandalf.

Am I right that the only reason you saw the light on Malaysia is because Muslims were the victims in this case?

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 51441 Gender:	Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers Reply #37 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 9:26am So is Malaysia still cuddly and an example to us all?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #38 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 10:16am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2019 at 9:22am:

I said that others had also been jailed for blasphemy,

Yet you never actually cited a single example. Simply saying that its so is not providing evidence, and I pointed this out to you at the time - repeatedly. Who were they? What were the circumstances? And this came about 20 pages in. You are now saying that you argued all along your case was based on more than Ahok, yet at the time you were quite happily attempting the case that this one, high profile incident was sufficient to plunge the entire country into self-censorship over religion. As usual, your entire argument consisted of 3 parts: 1 - a single piece of 'evidence' maintained by a series of inane rhetorical questions 2. hysterical flailing over the mere suggestion that such evidence is insufficient and flawed 3. ad-hominem attacks. Its amazing how quickly you can reach 40 pages or so with that forumla.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2019 at 9:22am:

Am I right that the only reason you saw the light on Malaysia is because Muslims were the victims in this case?

And what do you actually mean by "see the light"? Declaring an entire country an oppressive shithole based on a single incident? You might not have noticed FD, but I haven't done that with Malaysia. Yes I believe it has regressed, but I certainly am not basing it solely on this one incident. It has been an undeniable trend over a couple of decades. As I said, Malaysia is not the same country it was 20 years ago. Oppressive sharia laws have only become a thing in the recent past. I 'see the light' there because I have far more knowledge of the place - I visit there every year, and I have family and friends there. I cannot make the same assessments about Indonesia because I frankly don't know much about the place. I've never been there, and I don't know anyone from there. I can only rely on the evidence I see. So no, I'm not going to jump to conclusions about it being an "oppressive shithole" based on a single incident.

Even apart from all that, it is clear even to someone who has no direct knowledge of Indonesia that it is far more progressive and 'free' than Malaysia. Again, this shows up in the PEW surveys. It shows up in the domination of secular parties and ideals in their democracy. There is no party like PAS (Malaysian Islamist party) that has the clout they have in Malaysia.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #39 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 10:19am

Quote:

Yet you never actually cited a single example.

Because you would have responded that it is just a single example, in your usual fashion. I did however provide a link to the wikipedia article on blasphemy in Indonesia, which has a list.

Quote:

And what do you actually mean by "see the light"?

The whole mea culpa thing. You have been trying to pass off Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey as examples of progressive Muslim majority nations for years, creating elaborate excuses for the long list of human rights violations and creeping Islamofascism. Why did you suddenly see the light on Malaysia, but not the others? Is it only because Muslims were the victims this time?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #40 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 10:24am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2019 at 10:19am:

The whole mea culpa thing. You have been trying to pass off Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey as examples of progressive Muslim majority nations for years, creating elaborate excuses for the long list of human rights violations and creeping Islamofascism. Why did you suddenly see the light on Malaysia, but not the others? Is it only because Muslims were the victims this time?

I just told you FD. Next time perhaps take more than 3 minutes responding to a well thought out post, so you don't make the same mistake of repeating a question I just answered. You couldn't possibly be able to read, digest and reply coherently to such a long post in such a short time. And clearly, you didn't.

Clearly your problem here is the blind assumption that Malaysia and Indonesia are exactly the same - that they are both obviously oppressive shitholes for not other reason than 'gah Islam'. I think I've been pretty clear on why this shouldn't be assumed.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #41 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 11:20am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2019 at 10:19am:

The whole mea culpa thing.

You have been trying to pass off Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey as examples of progressive Muslim majority nations for years, creating elaborate excuses for the long list of human rights violations and creeping Islamofascism.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/category/Malaysia

http://www.jihadwatch.org/category/Indonesia

http://www.jihadwatch.org/category/Turkey

http://www.jihadwatch.org/category/Pakistan

Every moslem, is a moslem !

Every moslem, is a follower, of ISLAM !

Where they are rampant [hold absolute political authority - and where they do not fear the opinion of the world community] there is no oppression or no lawlessness or no injustice the moslem will not stoop to,
so long as the 'recipient' of such injustice is seen to be a non-moslem.

We allow followers of ISLAM to create 'beach-heads' within our nations [as 'religious' communities], at our national peril.

.

Moslem = = a follower of ISLAM.

Checkout the 'Aussie' moslem children, being taught by their own parents,
how to practice ISLAM. !!!!!!

-------- >

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1536141258/46#46

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1534830555/0#0

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #42 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 12:45pm

gandalf,

If you are correct.

If there is virtue in ISLAM, why can't you address my query within this thread.....

Where is, the 'exemplar' moslem majority nation ?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1552398731/0#0

gandalf,

Surely, if there is some virtue in ISLAM, you can point to at least one moslem majority nation in the world today, which promotes the virtue of ISLAM, and a nation of people, of which you are proud ?

A virtuous, prosperous, nation, full of ISLAMIC justice, which all of we infidels can see, and which we are unable to criticise.

.

Allah says that only moslems, are the righteous, the virtuous people.

So, where is the obvious, the undeniable, ...exemplar moslem majority nation ?

"Ye [moslems] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
Koran 3.110

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #43 - Dec 24^th, 2019 at 2:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2019 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2019 at 10:19am:

The whole mea culpa thing. You have been trying to pass off Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey as examples of progressive Muslim majority nations for years, creating elaborate excuses for the long list of human rights violations and creeping Islamofascism. Why did you suddenly see the light on Malaysia, but not the others? Is it only because Muslims were the victims this time?

I just told you FD. Next time perhaps take more than 3 minutes responding to a well thought out post, so you don't make the same mistake of repeating a question I just answered. You couldn't possibly be able to read, digest and reply coherently to such a long post in such a short time. And clearly, you didn't.

Clearly your problem here is the blind assumption that Malaysia and Indonesia are exactly the same - that they are both obviously oppressive shitholes for not other reason than 'gah Islam'. I think I've been pretty clear on why this shouldn't be assumed.

They are each oppressive shitholes in their own unique way.

Why is the fact that you are intimately familiar with Malaysia and not Indonesia significant now when it wasn't previously when you used them both as examples of progressive Muslim countries?

And if Malaysia has been on this clear trend towards Islam for decades, and you get to see this every time you visit, why did you only just notice? This would imply that being familiar with the place is of no benefit to you in terms of being aware of what is actually going on. It was only very recently you were backpedaling on behalf of Malaysian Muslims on the results of that Pew survey of their opinions.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Malaysians jailed for skipping prayers
Reply #44 - Jan 2^nd, 2020 at 1:46pm

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2019 at 2:01pm:

They are each oppressive shitholes in their own unique way.

You don't seriously believe that FD. Lets be honest here. The word "Islam" alone is enough in your book. You never see anything past that. *ALL* muslims support genocide FD, doesn't matter if they are Indonesian or Malaysian - we're all the same, remember?

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2019 at 2:01pm:

Why is the fact that you are intimately familiar with Malaysia and not Indonesia significant now when it wasn't previously when you used them both as examples of progressive Muslim countries?

And if Malaysia has been on this clear trend towards Islam for decades, and you get to see this every time you visit, why did you only just notice? This would imply that being familiar with the place is of no benefit to you in terms of being aware of what is actually going on. It was only very recently you were backpedaling on behalf of Malaysian Muslims on the results of that Pew survey of their opinions.

Lets not get carried away with this idea that gandalf has been holding on to the idea of 'progressive Malaysia' as an article of faith right up until yesterday FD. I probably referenced Malaysia as a 'progressive' Islamic country maybe once or twice, if at all, when I first joined this forum over 7 years ago. It was actually Brian pushing the idea far more rigorously. I'm pretty confident I haven't referenced in any way Malaysia as "progressive" in at least 6 years.

I suspect you are confusing my objections to your leaps of logic in relation to the PEW survey results as me insisting Malaysian society is "progressive" Islamically. Just like you hysterically label my calling out your bald faced lies about Afghanistan as me supporting the taliban.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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