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Islam stifles basic science (Read 41353 times)
freediver
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Islam stifles basic science
Mar 7th, 2013 at 9:27pm
 
I think it's time this got its own thread:

freediver wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Quote:
Evidence that it happened. We have a poem whose authenticity is not disputed, referring to an inventor who's existence and engineering feats are not disputed, claiming that he did something that was right up his alley. Put simply, there is no good reason to assume that it wasn't true.


What happened exactly? The descriptions I have seen from you and others about his wondrous flying machine bear little resemblance to the reference in the poem about him breaking his neck.

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The poem was very specific about what he did, so I don't know why you would call it "filling in the blanks".


This is what the poem says, according to your own link:

"He flew faster than the phoenix in his flight when he dressed his body in the feathers of a vulture."

That is the extent of it. As far as I can tell, this could just as easily be making fun of a doddery 60 year old man plummeting to the ground with a few feathers glued to his arms and snapping his neck on impact. This verse bears no resemblance at all to the dubious claims you have made about him, for example that he made some kind of hang glider. Hence, you are using the mere existence of an old document as justification for creating an elaborate fantasy, then insisting there is some kind of intellectual rigour to your fantasy because it has a vague resemblance to academic referencing standards. If I had known this is all you expected I wouldn't have been so reluctant to bother when you spent days criticising me for not living up to these 'standards'.

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You cannot escape the fact that it is a primary document, which is a hell of a lot more than many other historical "facts" that were merely relayed to us second hand.


It is a primary document that refers to an imaginary creature in the same line as the reference to him, is not intended to be an historical account, and does not actually say anything about any sort of flying machine, just vulture feathers. You might as well be holding up a fairy tale as evidence.

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Historians would generally agree that that would meet the minimum criteria for describing this as an historical fact.


If it wasn't a fairy tale and didn't fail to mention what you try to attribute to it.

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The sensible way to describe the claim would be somewhere along these lines: Evidence from a contemporary poem suggests that the well known muslim polymath Abbas Ibn Firnas made an attempt at flying . Note that it doesn't state that it definitely did or didn't happen - merely that there is historical documented evidence that it did. That approach is eminently more sensible than your claim that it was "obviously fabricated".


Your claim that he actually flew is obviously fabricated. I also see no reason to doubt that he made the attempt. I just see no relevance of some fool jumping off a building with feathers glued to his arms.

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no he wasn't. And comparing the preeminent mathematicians and scientists of their day with illiterate farmers who have no interest in advancing knowledge and science shouldn't even be dignified with a response.


It is called an analogy Gandalf. I even explained this to you in the vain hope that you wouldn't respond with something stupid like this.

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right, and you realise discovering subatomic particles is done mathematically?


Maths is one of the tools scientists use. This does not mean maths and science are the same thing. Your insistence that these discoveries are done mathematically is ludicrous. It completely ignores the fundamental processes of scientific research.

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where?


Here is an example, from the immediately preceding post:

freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2013 at 9:19pm:
Karnal:

Gandalf:

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Muslims don't "cling" to this - as if its the only thing muslims can point to. Muslims "cling" to things a bit more concrete - like their contribution to maths, physics, medicine and the development of the scientific method as we know it today. Actually, I'd only heard about this interesting bit of trivia when you mentioned it - but I'd certainly heard of all the other things I mentioned - and its invariably these things that you'll hear mentioned when people (muslims as well as non-muslims) talk about islam's contribution to science.


Could you give a few examples that you think should be added to this list?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/evolution/christian-foundation-science.html



Quote:
even though it makes no sense to isolate maths as not having anything to do with basic science


How many times do I have to explain this Gandalf? What I am saying is that maths and science are not the same thing. Please stick to what I actually say.
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Karnal
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #1 - Mar 7th, 2013 at 9:41pm
 
Ah - the camel urine thread. The one where FD spends a couple of months sifting through the evidence on this supposedly health-giving elixior - and disproves it once and for all.

I hope Iím not giving away the plot, but I think we know who the main protagonists will be.

Abu will be conspicuous in his absence.

Yadda will fill so many pages with Bible quotes and the advice to, "Google Malaysiaís prime minister on homosexuality", , FD may wonder why he bothers.

But it will all be worth it in the end. This thread will add to human knowledge - in one way or another.

Watch.
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Mr Conservative
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #2 - Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:01pm
 
Poem= historical fact ( better phrase historical evidence )
WTF
Please someone educate away. Undecided
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Soren
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #3 - Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:03pm
 
'basic science'?

Should be 'islam doesn't stifle islam and -  what else?'




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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #4 - Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:05pm
 
soooo FD, what exactly are we supposed to discuss in this thread? The claim in the subject, or the completely unrelated quote you posted in the OP?

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Soren
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #5 - Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:07pm
 
Karnal wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 9:41pm:
Ah - the camel urine thread. The one where FD spends a couple of months sifting through the evidence on this supposedly health-giving elixior - and disproves it once and for all.

I hope Iím not giving away the plot, but I think we know who the main protagonists will be.

Abu will be conspicuous in his absence.

Yadda will fill so many pages with Bible quotes and the advice to, "Google Malaysiaís prime minister on homosexuality", , FD may wonder why he bothers.

But it will all be worth it in the end. This thread will add to human knowledge - in one way or another.

Watch.



Love a pre-emptive surrender, don't you? However unusual from Musulmans like you. Can it be?? Nooo! You no apostate, shurly?
Nuuuurse! Get that vial of camel urine.  NOOOWWWW!!!


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« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:17pm by Soren »  
 
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Karnal
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #6 - Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:57pm
 
Been out on the tiles again, old chap. Cheese dealerís convention, was it?

One too many ouzos, eh?

Marvellous stuff. Now you go off to bed and Nurse will be up to tuck you in.

Iíll make sure heís wearing gloves.
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freediver
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #7 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 7:35pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:05pm:
soooo FD, what exactly are we supposed to discuss in this thread? The claim in the subject, or the completely unrelated quote you posted in the OP?



If you are happy to concede that the maths tangent and the Muslim guy who jumped off a building with vulture feathers glued to his arms are irrelevant, I think you'll find the topic gets back to the main issue pretty quickly. You can start by suggesting names to add to the list of scientists that is in the link provided in the OP.
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Karnal
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #8 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 9:07pm
 
FD, I suggest all the Muslims are pretending to hate science so that, under the cover of darkness as it were, they can invent all these terrible inventions that the West will take up and -  like a Trojan Horse - destroy themselves with.

Cunning, no?

Fire, nuclear bombs, carbon dioxide, botox, television, the Holy Bible, Pandoraís Box, pokies, live sex on stage, alcopops, religion, the Beatles, hommersexuality, gunpowder, yoghurt and quantum physics.

All despicable Moslem inventions that have been cunningly designed to put the white man back in his place.

And this is the evil people try to excuse in the name of Islam. How thoroughly contemptible and vile.

Gandalf, you have no course but to rebuke your false moon god and become a Christian.

You have 24 hours to reply.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #9 - Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 7:35pm:
If you are happy to concede that the maths tangent and the Muslim guy who jumped off a building with vulture feathers glued to his arms are irrelevant, I think you'll find the topic gets back to the main issue pretty quickly. You can start by suggesting names to add to the list of scientists that is in the link provided in the OP.


advances in maths are not irrelevant to advances in science - is really that simple FD. As for the flying story, you were the one who brought it up remember? I was only ever refuting your claim that it was, in your words, "obviously fabricated".

But surely you'll agree that its a bit odd to start a thread titled "islam stifles basic science" - and then write an OP that has absolutely nothing to do with that thread title no?

If you have something to say about how islam stifles basic science, why don't you just come out and say it?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #10 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 11:21am
 
Quote:
advances in maths are not irrelevant to advances in science - is really that simple FD


Are they the same thing?

Quote:
As for the flying story, you were the one who brought it up remember? I was only ever refuting your claim that it was, in your words, "obviously fabricated".


It is obvious. The only reference over 700 years is one sinlge line in a poem that talks about a phoenix and the guy gluing feathers to his arms. We have better documentation about the guy who flew too close to the sun. Does that mean we should challenge the idea that Yuri Gagarin was the first man in outer space? Why is the bar set so absurdly low for any contribution from a Muslim?

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But surely you'll agree that its a bit odd to start a thread titled "islam stifles basic science" - and then write an OP that has absolutely nothing to do with that thread title no?


It was copied from the other thread. It talks about your attempt to use maths as some kind of defence against the claim that Islam stifles basic science. It also contains one of my many requests for you to give some examples of Muslim scientists who you think should be on that list of the top 100. To be honest, I don't really care if you also want to keep talking about camel urine and the guy who glued feathers to his arms and beat the wright brothers into the air. Like I said, it is hard to stand on the shoulders of giants when you are so busy propping up midgets.

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If you have something to say about how islam stifles basic science, why don't you just come out and say it?


There are plenty of ways it stifles basic science. This thread is an example of one of them. I would like to discuss whether it does actually stifle basic science, for which there should be plenty of evidence, before we go into the mechanisms. It is hard enough to get you to address the basics.
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #11 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 11:21am:
The only reference over 700 years is one sinlge line in a poem that talks about a phoenix and the guy gluing feathers to his arms.


or in other words - a primary source. These actually hold some weight in history - even "light" literature like poems and plays. One example off the top of my head is the contemporary comedic plays of Aristophanes - satiring several key political figures of ancient Athens. While obviously biased and satirical, these are still considered valuable primary sources by classical historians, and accepted as containing much truth. There are countless poems throughout history that are primary evidence for much of history.

freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 11:21am:
Why is the bar set so absurdly low for any contribution from a Muslim?


its not - as can be seen with the history of Ancient Greece (for example) - where much of the "facts" don't contain any primary sources. In fact the best source we have for the Persian wars is a guy (writing decades after the event) we know specialised in simply making sh*t up. Is that therefore an "obvious fabrication"? It would be using your logic.

freediver wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 11:21am:
It was copied from the other thread. It talks about your attempt to use maths as some kind of defence against the claim that Islam stifles basic science.


No, it was an "attempt to use maths as some kind of defence" against the claim that islam made no contribution to modern science. Thats very different. Even if islam made no significant contribution to science, that in no way means that islam stifles science. That is what we call a non sequitur.

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« Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:51pm by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #12 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:39pm
 
Quote:
or in other words - a primary source. These actually hold some weight in history - even "light" literature like poems and plays. One example off the top of my head is the contemporary comedic plays of Aristophanes - satiring several key political figures of ancient Athens. While obviously biased and satirical, these are still considered valuable primary sources by classical historians, and accepted as containing much truth. There are countless poems throughout history that are primary evidence for much of history.


Sure. The trick is to figure out which bits are true. Assuming that such a vague reference can be interpreted as evidence in favour of something so unlikely and extraordinary is not the same thing as what you attribute to historians here. For example, if those satires had claimed that a certain leader inserted his head in his anus, they may take this as evidence that the leader existed, but not that he was in fact the greatest gymnast of all time. Can you see the difference?

Quote:
its not - as can be seen with the history of Ancient Greece (for example) - where much of the "facts" don't contain any primary sources. In fact the best source we have for the Persian wars is a guy (writing decades after the event) we know specialised in simply making sh*t up. Is that therefore an "obvious fabrication"? It would be using your logic.


No it wouldn't. People fought wars all the time. It is not an especially unlikely claim. Furthermore you appear to imply that this is not the only source over a period of 700 years. I will also go out on a limb and claim that this source is not a single line in a poem.

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Even if islam made no significant contribution to science, that in no way means that islam stifles science. That is what we call a non sequitur.


Can you elaborate on this please?
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #13 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 1:51pm
 
(continued from my previous post)

Quote:
It also contains one of my many requests for you to give some examples of Muslim scientists who you think should be on that list of the top 100.


arguing about completely random and subjective "top 100" lists (which I have always despised) says nothing about whether or not islam "stifles" science either.

That there were giants in islamic science is not seriously disputed by people who actually know what they are talking about, and anyone can include one or more of the many preeminent islamic scientists of the day into a random list. I don't much care for that sort of thing.

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To be honest, I don't really care if you also want to keep talking about camel urine and the guy who glued feathers to his arms and beat the wright brothers into the air.


no thats you - remember? Goodness you have a short memory FD. I never wanted to talk about them - but I will refute bullshit statements that you always seem to come up with.

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There are plenty of ways it stifles basic science. This thread is an example of one of them.


no its not. Nowhere does it come remotely close to explaining the mechanisms and/or processes inherent in islam that necessarily stifles debate. At best you have argued that islam hasn't made significant contributions, but thats obviously not the same.

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I would like to discuss whether it does actually stifle basic science, for which there should be plenty of evidence, before we go into the mechanisms. It is hard enough to get you to address the basics.


LOL! address what basics? The OP is just a hotch-potch of random quotes from a previous thread. All of which is completely unrelated to the thread title. How on earth am I supposed to make sense of that?? For God's sake man - if you want a discussion, then lets have a discussion - not create a threat topic, then a completely nonsensical OP in which you (presumably) want to showcase the arguments you think you refuted from a previous, unrelated discussion.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Islam stifles basic science
Reply #14 - Mar 9th, 2013 at 2:09pm
 
Quote:
That there were giants in islamic science is not seriously disputed by people who actually know what they are talking about, and anyone can include one or more of the many preeminent islamic scientists of the day into a random list. I don't much care for that sort of thing.


So you will argue ad nauseum that a contribution to maths is relevant to whether Islam stifles basic science. You will argue that a vague one line reference about a guy glueing feathers to his arms is 'primary' historical evidence that he built the wrold's first hang glider. But you cannot suggest a single Muslim scientist you think was unjustly left off the top 100 list?

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At best you have argued that islam hasn't made significant contributions, but thats obviously not the same.


Can you elaborate on this please?

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All of which is completely unrelated to the thread title.


Can you explain why the absence of any Muslims on the top 100 scientists list is completely unrelated to Islam and science?

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For God's sake man - if you want a discussion, then lets have a discussion - not create a threat topic, then a completely nonsensical OP in which you (presumably) want to showcase the arguments you think you refuted from a previous, unrelated discussion.


It was a continuation of a previous discussion in a thread with a few other unrelated (even more so) topics going on. You know this. If you can think of a more appropriate title, feel free to suggest it.
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