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climate skeptics derailing threads (Read 10136 times)
Paki gob on a stick
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #75 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:38pm:
Lee, perhaps you did not realise, but science is entirely about building models of reality.

Is this really the best the climate skeptics can come up with?


You haven't said anything yourself, dear. At least Lee's posted a few inscrutable graphs.

You?
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #76 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 6:59pm:
Schools. Roads. Hospitals. Police.


Sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system and public health.
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #77 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:18pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:17pm:
Which assertion in particular do you want evidence of? That you do not understand what you are talking about?


You mean you have forgotten your assertion about the "vast majority of climate scientists"? oh dear.

Poor freediver - the fact free zone.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #78 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:20pm
 
Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
I'm afraid you'll need to explain that one, Lee.

Please explain?



it has been warming. The CO2 causal link is tenuous at best.

I have never denied that the earth has been warming.
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lee
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #79 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:38pm:
Lee, perhaps you did not realise, but science is entirely about building models of reality.


Yes. Unfortunately climate science does not have models that reflect reality. Wink

Some models have fuctionality, some don't. Engineering models have functionality. They reflect what is known about bridges, planes etc. And they work. because the underlying maths is well understood. Which doesn't mean mistakes can't happen.

Climate models have a wonderful array of parameters. Parameters are inputs into the computer models of things that are not well understood. Just because it comes from a computer model doesn't make it rolled gold let alone solid gold.

Have you heard of GIGO? For most it means Garbage In, Garbage Out. For climate science it tends to be interpreted as Garbage In, Gospel Out.

If you have a look at the IPCC AR5 Chapter 9 Table 9.5 page 78 of 126 of the pdf or Page number 818 overall you will find a list of parameters for a number of computer models.

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1AR5_Chapter09_FINAL.pdf

"With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk."

John von Neumann.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #80 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:42pm
 
*
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Paki gob on a stick
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #81 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:53pm
 
lee wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:20pm:
Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
I'm afraid you'll need to explain that one, Lee.

Please explain?



it has been warming. The CO2 causal link is tenuous at best.

I have never denied that the earth has been warming.


Good to know, Lee.

So how's the link tenuous?

I believe that's what FD asked you.

Hard to tell, I know.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #82 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 11:18pm
 
Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:53pm:
So how's the link tenuous?


Because the effect of CO2 is diminishing logarithmically. As I posted much earlier the greatest effect is within the first 100ppm.

Ajax provided a graph and that is held to be true by all climate scientists.

Even the IPCC agrees.

"Equilibrium GCM 2 x CO2 experiments commonly assume a radiative forcing equivalent to a doubling of CO2 concentration (for example from 300 ppmv to 600 ppmv). In fact the absolute concentrations are not especially important, as the temperature response to increasing CO2 concentration is logarithmic - a doubling from 500 to 1000 ppmv would have approximately the same climatic effect."

https://www.ipcc-data.org/guidelines/pages/reporting.html

The fact that Estimated Climate Sensitivity hasn't changed in 40 years is a problem with all the money that has been thrown at the problem. If it was urgent you would think they could have worked on that. It is still estimated to be 1.5C to 4.5C per doubling by the IPCC although newer research suggests the lower figure.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #83 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:00am
 
lee wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:18pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:17pm:
Which assertion in particular do you want evidence of? That you do not understand what you are talking about?


You mean you have forgotten your assertion about the "vast majority of climate scientists"? oh dear.

Poor freediver - the fact free zone.


Like I said, you'd have to be living under a rock to miss that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Existence_of_
a_scientific_consensus

Do you have any evidence of the sun farting black holes at us? Or climate scientists travelling back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?
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Paki gob on a stick
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #84 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am
 
So why hasn't IPCC called off climate change?

Because they still say it's a problem, right?

The problem is, you keep changing your reasons. Sometimes it's cooling, sometimes CO2's great, a kooky article from here and there. You change your reasons like the weather, but do you know?

You'll always be a climate denier. Your aim is to deny it's happening, no matter what.

The rest of us can see the bleeding obvious. The world's heating because of global development. This is so obvious it's intuitive. You believe the world's impervious. The rest of us can see the environment change because of us.

I think that's your issue with climate change. It's not the science, it's the idea that we need to clean up after ourselves. You know, a greenie, globalist, Soros, one-world government plot.

No matter what the science says, Lee, you'll always believe that.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #85 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 11:34am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:00am:
Like I said, you'd have to be living under a rock to miss that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Existence_of_

a_scientific_consensus



Oh dear A wiki fanboy. You do know even schools warn against using wiki as a reference? It isn't reliable. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #86 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 12:07pm
 
Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
So why hasn't IPCC called off climate change?

Because they still say it's a problem, right?


Got it in one. The IPCC works under the auspices of the UNFCC, which is under UNEP It was set up by one Maurice Strong.

"Farewell to the man who invented 'climate change’"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/paris-climate-change-conference/12035401/...

He also said “We may get to the point where the only way of saving the world will be for industrialized civilization to collapse. Isn’t it our responsibility to bring this about?”

Now where have we heard those sentiments expressed?

Christina Figueres - "This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution".

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
Sometimes it's cooling, sometimes CO2's great, a kooky article from here and there. You change your reasons like the weather, but do you know?


And you know about weather, right? How the 7 day predictions last about 72 hours? And climate, according to the WMO, is merely the average of 30 years weather.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
You'll always be a climate denier. Your aim is to deny it's happening, no matter what.


Perhaps you can show where I have denied climate? Or even perhaps where I have denied climate changes? Climate changes at least monthly, seasonally, annually. Did you see the recent report about the North Atlantic Oscillation? It has overturned which happens periodically. It is now causing cooling around Greenland. It has a periodicity of 60-80 years; so you would need at least two climate periods to observe it full effect, probably more.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
The world's heating because of global development. This is so obvious it's intuitive.


So you believe in gut instinct over science? That's for you to contemplate.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
You believe the world's impervious.


Nope. Now you are getting emotional and making sch!t up.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
You know, a greenie, globalist, Soros, one-world government plot.



Funny you mentioned that - read more about Maurice Strong and Agenda 21 and Rio 1992. Wink

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
No matter what the science says, Lee, you'll always believe that.



You finally got something right. I will believe in the SCIENCE. Not Climate ScienceTM.
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #87 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 12:29pm
 
Just file this one away for future reference  Wink

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Paki gob on a stick
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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #88 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm
 
Lee, you can't present yourself as the voice of science and reason in this debate. You dismiss the science.

Science is merely used here to present one of two world views:

1. Please dispose of your rubbish in the bins provided

&

2. Kill em all, let God sort it out.

The consequences of our pollution are pretty clear: an ocean of plastic bags, fish stocks running out, record extinction of wildlife, record rainforest clearing, soil and water degradation, and an overheating planet.

You believe this is some leftist, Soros-funded agenda. The rest of us can see it with our own eyes.

The only grey areas here are the ones you seek to insert. As the human population grows and develops, we can't throw out our rubbish. Economic development means more cars on the road, more urban development, more air conditioners, more meat and fish consumption and even more plastic bags. This development is happening now faster than at any other time in history. Of course it's having an effect on the planet.

The consequence of all this is hardly a socialist conspiracy, but this is exactly what you believe. You don't believe the science. Instead, you look for excuses to prove it wrong.

You're free to have your views, but you can't possibly defend them with science. You're left, I'm afraid, with that increasingly popular phenomenon: FAKE news.


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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #89 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 2:41pm
 
Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
The consequences of our pollution are pretty clear: an ocean of plastic bags, fish stocks running out, record extinction of wildlife, record rainforest clearing, soil and water degradation, and an overheating planet.



Ocean of plastic bags? the Pacific gyre repeats.

Fish stocks running out? Perhaps put some blame on the Chinese with their vast fishing fleets. The Pacific nations made a deal and got stuck.

Record extinction of wildlife? Only  on a model based on the number of unknown species that must have been wiped out because we didn't know about them.

Record rain forest clearing? Something to blame man for. But clearing for palm oil plantations is the sole prerogative of the host countries. Clearing for food as well.

Soil and water degradation? You mean like those countries that can't afford deep wells and the electricity to draw it up?

An overheating planet? Really? Such arrant nonsense. It has been warmer in the past and we didn't die out. Neither did the poor poley bears and penguins. Grin Grin Grin

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
You believe this is some leftist, Soros-funded agenda. The rest of us can see it with our own eyes.


I am not sure what you see with your own eyes. It doesn't seem to be much.You seem to accept everything on faith. The High Church of AGW.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
The only grey areas here are the ones you seek to insert


Oh you mean like the climate science that says the net effect of clouds on temperature is likely positive? That kind of grey area?

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
As the human population grows and develops, we can't throw out our rubbish. Economic development means more cars on the road, more urban development, more air conditioners, more meat and fish consumption and even more plastic bags. This development is happening now faster than at any other time in history. Of course it's having an effect on the planet.


And nowhere have I said any different. You know the one great source of energy in the world that we don't use because of fear mongers? Nuclear power. If we closed coal fired power station it would save an enormous amount. But it has to be cheap and reliable.Something neither solar or wind are. That's why they need battery backup or fossil fuel backup.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
You don't believe the science. Instead, you look for excuses to prove it wrong.


But that is the role of science. It is scientists trying to disprove a theory or hypothesis. Not a consensus that it must be right. If scientists won't do it every thinking person has to look at it. Even citizen scientists.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
You're free to have your views, but you can't possibly defend them with science.


And yet I have. The uncertainties are so large you could drive two Haulpaks side by side through them. Sorry, that is an exaggeration exactly as you use them.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
You're left, I'm afraid, with that increasingly popular phenomenon: FAKE news.


So now Nature magazine, Science Direct etc are fake news sites? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You could of course provide peer-reviewed articles that debunk what I have said; instead of relying on your gut instinct. Strange you haven't done that to support your views. Wink
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