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Message started by Ajax on Mar 27th, 2019 at 4:21pm

Title: climate skeptics derailing threads
Post by Ajax on Mar 27th, 2019 at 4:21pm

freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 8:34am:
Putting a price on greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions is the cheapest, most economically efficient way to reduce emissions. Here is a statement of consensus from economists saying the same thing:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Carbon taxes overcome the two primary reasons for opposition to action on climate change:

1) The huge cost. Reducing GHG emissions is very cheap. What makes it expensive is government micromanagement (eg, MRETs, subsidies etc) - which makes about as much sense as asking the government to make and sell computers to us. There are simple ways to reduce emissions that people understand, the government can implement, and which have popular support. But they are the most expensive options. The cheap ways to reduce emissions are technically complex and beyond the reach of direct government intervention.

2) International cooperation. The currently preferred global mechanism is an emissions permit trading scheme. However this requires the creation of what is essentially a global currency, and it requires trust that all foreign governments will manage it correctly. That is a huge, and largely undeserved leap of faith. It also requires massive direct transfers of money between countries, which makes negotiations impossible. The alternative is a minimum agreed tax on GHG emissions. This is far simpler. Each country keeps it's own revenue, raised internally, and gets to "spend" it internally, for example by reducing other taxes.

All it takes is for people to get over their emotional over-reaction to the T word.

More info:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/green-tax-shift.html

I will be giving my first preference votes in both houses in the upcoming federal election to whichever party has the balls to publicly support carbon taxes. Malcolm Turnbull, Julia Gillard and Bob Brown have all publicly supported carbon taxes in the past. John Howard has supported and emissions trading scheme, which is the next best option from an economic perspective.


Well maybe if the theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) was true.

Facts are the theory is wrong.

So then only an nincompoop would pay for something that doesn't exist.

You see the computer models that predicted AGW in 1990 and its devastating effects said That by end of this century

Temperature would rise by 2.78°C end of this century

Empirical data the last 28 years predicts a warming by end of this century of 

Empirical Data last 28 years predicts warming end of this century of 1°C

Empirical data = Data gathered by observing nature.

We don't have to spend billions to keep the temperature below 2°C.

This will happen all by itself................... 8-)

Has the world lost its mind, blindly following bullsh!t rhetoric.

Its in plain English, don't know how else to say it.

If the computer models were right we should have been at a certain plateau by now, but we haven't reached it.

So WTFU.



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Mar 27th, 2019 at 4:25pm
If theory doesn't match observations in nature then the theory is wrong.

AGW theory is not were it should be in accordance with computer models.

Time to turf out this ridiculous theory once and for all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8habYTfHU

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Mar 27th, 2019 at 4:28pm
Clean up pollution  - Yeah sure lets do it.

Switch to green energy -  Yeah sure lets do it.

But don't be conned into paying for the air that we all breathe.

After all it is free fro now...... 8-)

Dishonest information is staring you in the face.

It's your choice.......!





Medieval warm period warmer than today.


Dahl_Jensen et al 1998
Wagner & Melles 2001
Kaplan et al 2002
Jiang et al 2002
Moore et al 2001
Grudd et al 2002
Seppa & Birks 2002
Dansgaard et al 1975
Korhola et al 2000
Naurzbaev et al 2002
Vaganov et el 1996
Briffa et al 1998
Scweingruber & Briffa 1996
Knudsen et al 2004
Grinsted et al 2006
Besonen et al 2008
Wagner et al 2008
Vare et al 2009
Norgaard-Pedersen & Mikkelsen 2009
Andresen et al 2004
Vinther et al 2010
Kobashi et al 2010
Kobashi et al 2008
Stuiver et al 1995
Dansgaard et al 1975
Jenings & Weiner 1996
Johnsen et al 2001
Vinther et al 2010
Larsen et al 2011
Hill et al 2001
Joynt & Wolfe 2001
Hantemirov & Shiyatov 2002
Andersson et al 2003
Helama et al 2005
Mazepa 2005
Weckstrom et al 2006
Jiang et al 2007
Zabenski & Gajewski 2007
Grudd 2008
Justwan et al 2008
Scire et al 2008
Axford et al 2009
Bjune et al 2009
Cook et al 2009
Fortin & Gajewski 2010
Buntgen et al 2011
Divine et al 2011
Ran et al 2011
Velle et al 2011
D’Andrea et al 2012
Esper et al 2012



Don't forget a while back the consensus was that the Earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Mar 27th, 2019 at 6:04pm
• ...civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind,” biologist George Wald, Harvard University, April 19, 1970.

• By 1995, “...somewhere between 75 and 85 percent of all the species of living animals will be extinct.” Sen. Gaylord Nelson, quoting Dr. S. Dillon Ripley, Look magazine, April 1970. 

• Because of increased dust, cloud cover and water vapor “...the planet will cool, the water vapor will fall and freeze, and a new Ice Age will be born,” Newsweek magazine, January 26, 1970.
• The world will be “...eleven degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age,” Kenneth Watt, speaking at Swarthmore University, April 19, 1970.

• “By 1985, air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half...” Life magazine, January 1970.
• “Population will inevitably and completely outstrip whatever small increases in food supplies we make,” Paul Ehrlich, interview in Mademoiselle magazine, April 1970.
• “...air pollution...is certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone,” Paul Ehrlich, interview in Mademoiselle magazine, April 1970.
• Ehrlich also predicted that in 1973, 200,000 Americans would die from air pollution, and that by 1980 the life expectancy of Americans would be 42 years.
• “It is already too late to avoid mass starvation,” Earth Day organizer Denis Hayes, The Living Wilderness, Spring 1970.
• “By the year 2000...the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America and Australia, will be in famine,” Peter Gunter, North Texas State University, The Living Wilderness, Spring 1970.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 5th, 2019 at 5:48pm
Lee can you explain why you think that is relevant?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 5th, 2019 at 6:24pm

freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Lee can you explain why you think that is relevant?



Because according to the alarmists we're "all gunna die". ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 5th, 2019 at 6:32pm
Would you describe the vast majority of climate scientists who agree with AGW, and the economic consensus on pricing mechanisms, and the bipartisan support for action on climate change as "alarmist"?

Or were you just trying to change the topic?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 5th, 2019 at 7:40pm

freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2019 at 6:32pm:
Would you describe the vast majority of climate scientists who agree with AGW, and the economic consensus on pricing mechanisms, and the bipartisan support for action on climate change as "alarmist"?


First you would need to define "the vast majority of climate scientists who agree with AGW. The American Meteorological Society is one of the few Societies that actually surveyed their members rather than making a decision by diktat. Their survey? 53% agreed with AGW. Not necessarily that it was catastrophic, just that it was occurring.

But please refer me to your preferred "vast majority" report.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 6th, 2019 at 9:49am

freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2019 at 6:32pm:
Would you describe the vast majority of climate scientists who agree with AGW, and the economic consensus on pricing mechanisms, and the bipartisan support for action on climate change as "alarmist"?

Or were you just trying to change the topic?


My goodness man, you may have a degree you might be a star amongst your colleagues at your work place and generally in business BUT when it come to Anthropogenic Global Warming you’re in the sheeple class.

Too lazy to research both sides you prefer to sit back and listen to the so called experts and their stupid consensus.

Experts who not so long ago believed that the Earth was flat and killed anyone who disagreed.

What about today, experts sent home a baby girl three times from hospital even though the parents knew there was something wrong with her, she died after she was sent home the third time, turns out she had swallowed  a button battery.

Experts are nothing more than trained monkeys in a certain field taken them out of that environment and they’re like everyone else.

Wake up and smell the CO2 a good starting point would be here (read below) to REALLY find out where this bullshit rhetoric about the 97% came from.

How can people be so dull, when the information is right in front of them and then claim to be so smart……… ::)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2015/01/06/97-of-climate-scientists-agree-is-100-wrong/#f145c6b3f9ff


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 6th, 2019 at 10:02am
An example:

David Suzuki believes in AGW because the experts said so, he has no idea where the 97% consensus came from BUT believes it.

His knowledge on climate change is no different to the average Joe or Jacinta on the street.

How do I know, well I saw him on Q&A......... :D

David Suzuki is a Canadian academic, science broadcaster and environmental activist.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:38pm

Quote:
Too lazy to research both sides you prefer to sit back and listen to the so called experts and their stupid consensus.

Experts who not so long ago believed that the Earth was flat and killed anyone who disagreed.


Can you give an example? Is this really the level of debate the climate critics are stooping to? And what is the point of looking like an idiot?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm

lee wrote on Apr 5th, 2019 at 6:24pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Lee can you explain why you think that is relevant?



Because according to the alarmists we're "all gunna die". ;)


Nobody is saying we will all die. I would be making a list of the names of people with your view who are blocking action and if the science turns out to be true your descendants would be the ones at risk and going without.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 6th, 2019 at 7:47pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Nobody is saying we will all die.



"As newly anointed Democratic thought-leader Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., once reminded us, "like, the world is gonna end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/spend-93-trillion-on-the-green-new-deal-or-well-all-die-in-like-12-years[/url]

[url]
Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
I would be making a list of the names of people with your view who are blocking action and if the science turns out to be true your descendants would be the ones at risk and going without.


Oh. Only IF it turns out to be true. That means there is some likelihood of it not being true. Who knew? ;D ;D ;D

What are the statistics for those scientists who believe in AGW to the 95% confidence level? ;)


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 6th, 2019 at 7:49pm

freediver wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:38pm:
Can you give an example? Is this really the level of debate the climate critics are stooping to? And what is the point of looking like an idiot?


So just who is on your list of approved papers?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 6th, 2019 at 10:54pm

lee wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 7:47pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Nobody is saying we will all die.



"As newly anointed Democratic thought-leader Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., once reminded us, "like, the world is gonna end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/spend-93-trillion-on-the-green-new-deal-or-well-all-die-in-like-12-years[/url]

[url]
Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
I would be making a list of the names of people with your view who are blocking action and if the science turns out to be true your descendants would be the ones at risk and going without.


Oh. Only IF it turns out to be true. That means there is some likelihood of it not being true. Who knew? ;D ;D ;D

What are the statistics for those scientists who believe in AGW to the 95% confidence level? ;)


Of course there is a chance that the dominant scientific view could be wrong, I would think that they are only at about 95% probability. If you want to risk the life of your descendants on that other 5% go ahead.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 6th, 2019 at 11:14pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 10:54pm:

lee wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 7:47pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Nobody is saying we will all die.



"As newly anointed Democratic thought-leader Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., once reminded us, "like, the world is gonna end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/spend-93-trillion-on-the-green-new-deal-or-well-all-die-in-like-12-years[/url]

[url]
Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
I would be making a list of the names of people with your view who are blocking action and if the science turns out to be true your descendants would be the ones at risk and going without.


Oh. Only IF it turns out to be true. That means there is some likelihood of it not being true. Who knew? ;D ;D ;D

What are the statistics for those scientists who believe in AGW to the 95% confidence level? ;)


Of course there is a chance that the dominant scientific view could be wrong, I would think that they are only at about 95% probability. If you want to risk the life of your descendants on that other 5% go ahead.


How could it be wrong? The world's heating up and CO2 is creating the heat. CO2 output and temperature rise correlate perfectly. And the CO2 comes from burning the fuel that creates that heat.

Our energy is making the world hotter. The only way to make it cooler is to stop doing things, or do them using the energy that's already there - sun, wind, sea.

Year 9 maths, innit.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:59am
Of course it's true. It's already happening. By Lee's logic he would stand on the train tracks as a train approaches demanding proof it will hit him if he doesn't move.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Valkie on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:22am
The world goes through heating and cooling cycles every year
They are called seasons.

It's caused because of our proximity to the sun and the angle of the planet in its axis.

Our world also wanders through the universe circling our galactic centrepoint.
Who is it say that it's proximity to other influences may or may not affect our weather patterns?

The planet we live on has gone through many heating and cooling cycles over the millions of years it has existed.
Heating and cooling cycles not caused by cars or power stations.
And not one of these climate scientists can tell us why, not one.
They have theories and guesses, but no definitive answers.

Now
I do believe that we should be doing more to reduce poisoning our planet.
And the most effective way tgere is would be population reduction.
All pollution is caused by an ever growing population using more and more, clearing land and destroying forests and the ocean.

Think
If we reduced the world's population by 2/3
We woukd automatically reduce pollution by 2/3

I'm not advocating murder or genocide
Simply stopping aid to countries who allow their population to grow exponentially without the ability to support them.
Better still
Mandate compulsory sterilization for any country that has a population that is excessive.

If we do not stop overpopulation soon
It will result in the destruction of our planet far faster than any amount of pollution we could ever produce.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:29am

freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 8:34am:
Putting a price on greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions is the cheapest, most economically efficient way to reduce emissions. Here is a statement of consensus from economists saying the same thing:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html


100% Correct.

Abbott and the Liberals shooting down the best available option put them into government at the expense of Australia's best interests.

We had by far the best option in place. 

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:32am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 11:14pm:
How could it be wrong? The world's heating up and CO2 is creating the heat. CO2 output and temperature rise correlate perfectly. And the CO2 comes from burning the fuel that creates that heat.

Our energy is making the world hotter. The only way to make it cooler is to stop doing things, or do them using the energy that's already there - sun, wind, sea.

Year 9 maths, innit.


Everything you have said above apart from the “year 9 maths” can only be true if you believe what the computer models predicted in 1990, and we all know about computers right, sh!t in sh!t out, doesn’t matter whether you’re working in economics, engineering, your tax return and yes even Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW).

You see for the computer models to have been correct we should have reached a certain plateau by now which we haven’t, we know this by observing nature and in science this usually means that the theory was wrong, if your theory doesn’t match observations in nature then your theory (computer models) is wrong.

So we should have been at a certain point by now but we haven’t reached it, that’s why the sceptics are calling it a hiatus and everything else under the sun etc.

In 1990 the computer models predicted that by the end of this century the global mean average temperature will rise by 2.78°C so we should have been heating up by a certain amount every year up til now to reach this target that the computer models said we would reach.

The last 28 years (since 1990) of empirical data (observing nature) suggests that by the end of this century the global mean average temperature will rise by 1°C which is not out of the norm for heating and cooling cycles of the earth.

So you see Karnal we don’t have to spend billions of tax payer dollars buying carbon credits on the stock exchange lining the pockets of the Gores and Soros’s of this world and on top giving the United Nations 10% of some crazy carbon tax or ETS scheme.

The temperature in accordance with observations in nature for the last 28 years since those crazy computer model predictions in 1990 will only rise 1°C by the end of this century.

The Earth has been heating up since the little ice age no one can deny that and with this heating the weather has changed accordingly, you might want to ask the United Nations IPCC why they originally had the medieval warm period and the little ice age graph in their papers only to change it out for Michael Mann’s hockey stick graph.



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:33am
The Essence Of Science In 60 Seconds (Richard Feynman)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8habYTfHU

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:33am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 11:14pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 10:54pm:

lee wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 7:47pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Nobody is saying we will all die.



"As newly anointed Democratic thought-leader Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., once reminded us, "like, the world is gonna end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/spend-93-trillion-on-the-green-new-deal-or-well-all-die-in-like-12-years[/url]

[url]
Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
I would be making a list of the names of people with your view who are blocking action and if the science turns out to be true your descendants would be the ones at risk and going without.


Oh. Only IF it turns out to be true. That means there is some likelihood of it not being true. Who knew? ;D ;D ;D

What are the statistics for those scientists who believe in AGW to the 95% confidence level? ;)


Of course there is a chance that the dominant scientific view could be wrong, I would think that they are only at about 95% probability. If you want to risk the life of your descendants on that other 5% go ahead.


How could it be wrong? The world's heating up and CO2 is creating the heat. CO2 output and temperature rise correlate perfectly. And the CO2 comes from burning the fuel that creates that heat.

Our energy is making the world hotter. The only way to make it cooler is to stop doing things, or do them using the energy that's already there - sun, wind, sea.

Year 9 maths, innit.


Maybe ask Croc - he got year 10 economics you know ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:37am

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:59am:
Of course it's true. It's already happening. By Lee's logic he would stand on the train tracks as a train approaches demanding proof it will hit him if he doesn't move.


In Lee's world it isn't true unless someone else is doing the work for him and even then it isn't true unless it agrees with his preset view.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:45am
Karnal while your at it ask Al Gore why he only ever shows time scales of CO2 and temperature in the hundreds of thousands of years.

Why not another time scale the correlation should hold true if it is true.............. ;D :) ;)




Is there any correlation between CO2 and temperature?

(1).....On a small time scale
(NO), (11,000 years)

Showing from 200 to 11000 years ago, the subsequent graph is based on ice core data, readily visible in files hosted on the servers of the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA):GISP 2 and EPICA Dome C

Graph-1


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/04/11/does-co2-correlate-with-temperature-history-a-look-at-multiple-timescales-in-the-context-of-the-shakun-et-al-paper/



(2).....On a medium time scale YES???, (450,000 years)

(NO) , It appears so because of the scale we are zoomed out at.

WARNING ! This is the scale that most global warming sites use to scare the unsuspecting.

Over the past few hundred thousand years of ice core data, a “medium” time scale in this sense, CO2 superficially appears to change in step with temperature if a graph is so zoomed out as to not show sub-millennial time
scales well

Graph-2


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/04/11/does-co2-correlate-with-temperature-history-a-look-at-multiple-timescales-in-the-context-of-the-shakun-et-al-paper/

A record of temperature and atmospheric CO2 over the past 400,000 years is preserved in the Vostok Ice Core and is shown in the figure on the right.

It can be seen that there have been a series of large fluctuations in temperature (the Ice Ages), accompanied by large changes in atmospheric CO2.

It is thought that these large temperature fluctuations are triggered by Milankovitch cycles - variations in the earth's orbit that change the amount of energy from the sun that reaches us.

However, on their own, these cycles are not enough to explain the changes in temperature.

The full explanation seems to be that the small change in temperature caused by the changing orbit are amplified by natural processes on earth. These cause CO2 to be released from the oceans and the biosphere, causing an increased greenhouse effect.

This is described more fully in this article from the New Scientist (see also Shackleton 2000). For more details on the timing of changes in CO2 and temperature, click on the figure.

http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/gw/paleo/paleoclimate.htm#100,000years



(3).....On a long time scale (NO) , (millions of years)

Graph-3


[url]http://s155.n46.n171.n68.static.myhostcenter.com/WVFossils/Reference_Docs/Geocarb_III-Berner.pdf[/urll]



(4).....Lately


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:47am
Ajax why do all your plots look like they were put together by a primary school student for homework?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:50am

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:47am:
Ajax why do all your plots look like they were put together by a primary school student for homework?


Have a look at the fine print its either an et al or a satellite from where the data comes..... ;)

Colourful aint they................... :)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:07am
What fine print? All you have given us is links to very dodgy looking websites. If you cannot be bothered finding credible sources, how can you expect others to take you seriously? There is a scientific consensus on this, thousands of papers published in respected journals (not to mention bipartisan political support and economic consensus that there are cheap and easy fixes), but you want us to chase up your schoolboy excel plots for you?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:24am

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:07am:
What fine print? All you have given us is links to very dodgy looking websites. If you cannot be bothered finding credible sources, how can you expect others to take you seriously? There is a scientific consensus on this, thousands of papers published in respected journals (not to mention bipartisan political support and economic consensus that there are cheap and easy fixes), but you want us to chase up your schoolboy excel plots for you?


Here’s another childish graph you might want to think about freediver.

The amount of heating CO2 can cause on planet Earth, since CO2 can only absorb heat in a narrow range of wavelengths then it must have a limit to its influence.

Better known as the logarithmic effect of CO2.

So it doesn’t matter how much CO2 goes up into our atmosphere there will come a time when it will no longer have any effect.

What do we see today, more manmade CO2 than ever before is being pumped out into the atmosphere yet temperatures have stabilized and aren’t following the manmade CO2 trend which is growing exponentially.
 
This must be true because when we had 7000ppm of CO2 in our atmosphere compared to today’s very low 410ppm it should have wiped us out..... :(





Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:33am
Ajax, anyone can type "lie to me about climate change" into google. Anyone can copy and paste. But if you want to be taken seriously you need to think before you post. Here's a tip: figure out what you want to say, then say it. The fact that the earth was once a ball of hot, molten rock (even on the surface) is not really relevant now, is it?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:45am

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:33am:
Ajax, anyone can type "lie to me about climate change" into google. Anyone can copy and paste. But if you want to be taken seriously you need to think before you post. Here's a tip: figure out what you want to say, then say it. The fact that the earth was once a ball of hot, molten rock (even on the surface) is not really relevant now, is it?


Well how about this then.....!

After the year 2000 fossil fuel emissions have increased three fold to the prior decade.

But the average yearly increase in atmospheric CO2 after the year 2000 remains more or less steady just like the decade prior to the year 2000.

Compared to natural CO2 emissions being emitted every year from the ground and the sea due to heating from the sun, manmade CO2 emissions are just too small to register.

You see we might spend billions trying to curb manmade CO2 emissions and then one day our sun that yellow thing in the sky gets a bit of flatulence (black holes) and presto the increase in natural CO2 will eclipse by far anything we have saved.

Do you know understand how futile trying to curb Anthropogenic Global Warming is…..??





Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:49am
So you don't believe in AGW because the sun farts black holes at us?

I see why you prefer to copy and paste.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:08am

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:49am:
So you don't believe in AGW because the sun farts black holes at us?

I see why you prefer to copy and paste.


Once last thought FD why should we trust these people who in 1970 said that the Earth would freeze over by 2000 which was bullsh!t.....!

These very same people who wanted to drop gigatonnes of carbon on the arctic to stop it from melting in 1920 & 1940 (what would have happened to those cuddly polar bears) if they did that.

And now their telling us we're going to fry....bullsh!t.....!

You know that motto if it aint broke don’t try to fix it, makes sense to me.

September 1957 - arctic decreases by 40%


May 1947 - arctic melting
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/22429983?searchTerm=climate%20change&searchLimits=

November 1922 - arctic melting
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/050/mwr-050-11-0589a.pdf


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:14am
You know those poor little solar scientists that study the sun poor bastards never get any air time on prime time.

Their saying the Earth will cool because the sun is going into a maunder minimum not unlike the little ice age.

Hence the urgency of the United Nations IPCC and the Gores and Soro's of this world to pass the carbon derivatives laws in every nation on the planet, to establish the carbon derivatives market.

So desperate their brain washing school children and turning them into foot soldiers for their cause.

Because if in a few years the Earth cools a carbon derivatives market on the stock exchange will be very unlikely.

But once its passed and implemented even if the Earth cools the tax will remain.

No time to waste.......!


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:58am

Ajax wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:14am:
You know those poor little solar scientists that study the sun poor bastards never get any air time on prime time.

Their saying the Earth will cool because the sun is going into a maunder minimum not unlike the little ice age.

Hence the urgency of the United Nations IPCC and the Gores and Soro's of this world to pass the carbon derivatives laws in every nation on the planet, to establish the carbon derivatives market.

So desperate their brain washing school children and turning them into foot soldiers for their cause.

Because if in a few years the Earth cools a carbon derivatives market on the stock exchange will be very unlikely.

But once its passed and implemented even if the Earth cools the tax will remain.

No time to waste.......!


You show little understanding of what this means. The cooler period has already been in force and to some extent moderated the impact of global warming. This was originally called the pause.

All that this does is to give us some time to act. You seem to fail to realise that the opposite is also part of the cycle - a warmer period.

Even with the cooling periods we have experienced Temps have not gone down, this is because we are looking at Global warming + a cooler period. What do you think happens when we have global warming + a warmer period ?

                     

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:00pm
Ajax, we all know global warming's happening. We're all seeing the extremes of temperature rise each year, and so far, it's nothing. We only need to see an average 3% rise to see major environmental and agricultural destruction. The signs are already there - particularly in the oceans.

The only ones who profit from this debate are the fossil fuel industry.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:14pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:58am:
You show little understanding of what this means. The cooler period has already been in force and to some extent moderated the impact of global warming. This was originally called the pause.

All that this does is to give us some time to act. You seem to fail to realise that the opposite is also part of the cycle - a warmer period.

Even with the cooling periods we have experienced Temps have not gone down, this is because we are looking at Global warming + a cooler period. What do you think happens when we have global warming + a warmer period ?


Well D I guess you’re right, no one can claim to understand climate science in its entirety, I certainly don’t and I don’t think there would be many people including you on this forum that could raise their hand for that one.

What I do understand is that the new grand minimum which I agree has begun since about 2008 has knocked the predictions of the United Nations IPCC computer models in 1990 out of the grand stand and straight into the rubbish bin.

You either have a warming or a cooling period you cannot have both simultaneously and as we know the IPCC claims that all the current warming is due to man’s emissions of CO2 which is so childish and naïve, climate science is way more complicated than that, the more you delve into it the more this becomes apparent.

Again I agree that we don’t really know what the temperature in the near future will do but a good starting point would be to see what the sun will be doing over the next one hundred years then if you can factor in all the other variables you could get some idea, good luck with that one.

Here is one prediction by solar scientist and part-time NSA operative Leif Svalgaard, he predicts the sun’s activity will be very low for the next one hundred years, so far he’s done a good job of it.



https://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2018/06/09/leif-svalgaard-reveals-his-solar-cycle-25-prediction-at-last/


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:18pm
Some more literature on solar cycles, have looked at this briefly and intend on reading it in its entirety not that I will understand everything but should be able to get the gist of it................. ;) :)

You might find it interesting.

The Grand New Minimum by Brent Walker.

Presented to the Actuaries Institute
Actuaries Summit
20-21 May 2013, Sydney


https://www.actuaries.asn.au/Library/Events/SUM/2013/Sum2013PaperBrentWalker.pdf

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:30pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:00pm:
Ajax, we all know global warming's happening. We're all seeing the extremes of temperature rise each year, and so far, it's nothing. We only need to see an average 3% rise to see major environmental and agricultural destruction. The signs are already there - particularly in the oceans.

The only ones who profit from this debate are the fossil fuel industry.


Global warming and global cooling have been happening since day dot.

Anthropogenic Global Warming is also true, we do contribute some small amount of CO2 into the atmosphere by changing one form of energy into another, but its nothing that will destroy us or change the environment.

And you're wrong about the big oil boys they have jumped on the gravy train and fully support a carbon derivatives market on the stock exchange, Shell, Mobil etc.

I don't know about the Kotch brothers maybe Marla can inform us if they have also jumped on the gravy train.

WHY...you ask......???

I don't know how this could benefit them (Shell, Mobil etc)but they seem to like the idea of trading carbon derivatives, bottom line is they can probably make some money for nothing, if anyone knows how please tell..... :)

And don't forget all the banks are in on this carbon derivatives trading, they are spending billions promoting it so imagine how much they will gain from it.

Karnal do you really think that if we were in danger of extinction because of our actions over the next 50 years the best solution would be to pay for the CO2 that you emit on the stock exchange.

You can still emit CO2,

If you pay for the emission there is no danger,

If you don't pay for the emissions we're all doomed to fry.............LOL......... :D

I would have thought the best possible solution would be to have no electricity no electronics, no cars trains trams.

WHEN

RIGHT NOW......!!!!!

That's a more realistic approach..... :)

At least everyone would have a job and the worlds population would sky rocket....... :D



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:48pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:14pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:58am:
You show little understanding of what this means. The cooler period has already been in force and to some extent moderated the impact of global warming. This was originally called the pause.

All that this does is to give us some time to act. You seem to fail to realise that the opposite is also part of the cycle - a warmer period.

Even with the cooling periods we have experienced Temps have not gone down, this is because we are looking at Global warming + a cooler period. What do you think happens when we have global warming + a warmer period ?


Well D I guess you’re right, no one can claim to understand climate science in its entirety, I certainly don’t and I don’t think there would be many people including you on this forum that could raise their hand for that one.

What I do understand is that the new grand minimum which I agree has begun since about 2008 has knocked the predictions of the United Nations IPCC computer models in 1990 out of the grand stand and straight into the rubbish bin.


Of course you can have both and that is what we have nothing is in isolation and there are other things that can happen and vary the models.

Just like we have been going through a cooling period for over a decade yet it has been getting hotter just at a lower rate than the models which didn't predict this would have expected. However we have been in a cooling period and it has not got cooler either when it should have if there were no global warming.

There can be and is multiple inputs into the climate that can and do all have an accumulative impact but it is man made impact on warming which is not a natural part of the balance. As your input shows clearly it has been getting warmer when it should have been cooling.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 7th, 2019 at 1:00pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:48pm:
Of course you can have both and that is what we have nothing is in isolation and there are other things that can happen and vary the models.


The models are primitive and cannot predict much more than a seven day forecast.


Quote:
Just like we have been going through a cooling period for over a decade yet is has been getting hotter just at a lower rate than the models which didn't predict this would have expected. However we have been in a cooling period and it has not got cooler either when it should have if there were no global warming.


Hold on to your knickerbockers mate there's always a lag of sorts, just wait till we get hail the size of soccer balls, I suppose you will still be preaching global warming..... :D


Quote:
There can be and is multiple inputs into the climate that can and do all have an accumulative impact but it is man made impact on warming which is not a natural part of the balance. As your input shows clearly it has been getting warmer when it should have been cooling.


Man's influence is minimal when it comes to AGW.

Now about cleaning pollution up I'm all for it.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 3:22pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:08am:

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:49am:
So you don't believe in AGW because the sun farts black holes at us?

I see why you prefer to copy and paste.


Once last thought FD why should we trust these people who in 1970 said that the Earth would freeze over by 2000 which was bullsh!t.....!

These very same people who wanted to drop gigatonnes of carbon on the arctic to stop it from melting in 1920 & 1940 (what would have happened to those cuddly polar bears) if they did that.

And now their telling us we're going to fry....bullsh!t.....!

You know that motto if it aint broke don’t try to fix it, makes sense to me.

September 1957 - arctic decreases by 40%


May 1947 - arctic melting
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/22429983?searchTerm=climate%20change&searchLimits=

November 1922 - arctic melting
http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/050/mwr-050-11-0589a.pdf


Does that mean you have stopped thinking for good now?

Do you really think the same people were alive and calling for those policies in 1920?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 7th, 2019 at 3:57pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:30pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:00pm:
Ajax, we all know global warming's happening. We're all seeing the extremes of temperature rise each year, and so far, it's nothing. We only need to see an average 3% rise to see major environmental and agricultural destruction. The signs are already there - particularly in the oceans.

The only ones who profit from this debate are the fossil fuel industry.


Global warming and global cooling have been happening since day dot.

Anthropogenic Global Warming is also true, we do contribute some small amount of CO2 into the atmosphere by changing one form of energy into another, but its nothing that will destroy us or change the environment.

And you're wrong about the big oil boys they have jumped on the gravy train and fully support a carbon derivatives market on the stock exchange, Shell, Mobil etc.

I don't know about the Kotch brothers maybe Marla can inform us if they have also jumped on the gravy train.

WHY...you ask......???

I don't know how this could benefit them (Shell, Mobil etc)but they seem to like the idea of trading carbon derivatives, bottom line is they can probably make some money for nothing, if anyone knows how please tell..... :)

And don't forget all the banks are in on this carbon derivatives trading, they are spending billions promoting it so imagine how much they will gain from it.

Karnal do you really think that if we were in danger of extinction because of our actions over the next 50 years the best solution would be to pay for the CO2 that you emit on the stock exchange.

You can still emit CO2,

If you pay for the emission there is no danger,

If you don't pay for the emissions we're all doomed to fry.............LOL......... :D

I would have thought the best possible solution would be to have no electricity no electronics, no cars trains trams.

WHEN

RIGHT NOW......!!!!!

That's a more realistic approach..... :)

At least everyone would have a job and the worlds population would sky rocket....... :D


Then we agree. It's certainly happening. No one's saying it'll cause extinction of OUR species, Ajax, but a number of species are certainly in the way out.

I don't know about the carbon market. The only solution I have is a generational transition to renewables - like Germany and California. I believe we'll see this in China and India in the next generation.

Far from giving up electricity and transport, they've never used more of it. In China, everybody in the cities pays with mobile phones. They travel on electric scooters.

Germany, California and China all have carbon pricing, but more than that, they're had generational change in the way they think about energy and pollution.

I don't know about the best way to get there, but I'm glad we agree on the destination.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 4:04pm
Carbon taxes are the best way to get there.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 4:53pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 10:54pm:

lee wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 7:47pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Nobody is saying we will all die.



"As newly anointed Democratic thought-leader Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., once reminded us, "like, the world is gonna end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/spend-93-trillion-on-the-green-new-deal-or-well-all-die-in-like-12-years[/url]

[url]
Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
I would be making a list of the names of people with your view who are blocking action and if the science turns out to be true your descendants would be the ones at risk and going without.


Oh. Only IF it turns out to be true. That means there is some likelihood of it not being true. Who knew? ;D ;D ;D

What are the statistics for those scientists who believe in AGW to the 95% confidence level? ;)


Of course there is a chance that the dominant scientific view could be wrong, I would think that they are only at about 95% probability. If you want to risk the life of your descendants on that other 5% go ahead.



The number at the 95% confidence level is about 43%. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 5:08pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 1:00pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 12:48pm:
Of course you can have both and that is what we have nothing is in isolation and there are other things that can happen and vary the models.


The models are primitive and cannot predict much more than a seven day forecast.


Quote:
Just like we have been going through a cooling period for over a decade yet is has been getting hotter just at a lower rate than the models which didn't predict this would have expected. However we have been in a cooling period and it has not got cooler either when it should have if there were no global warming.


Hold on to your knickerbockers mate there's always a lag of sorts, just wait till we get hail the size of soccer balls, I suppose you will still be preaching global warming..... :D

[quote]There can be and is multiple inputs into the climate that can and do all have an accumulative impact but it is man made impact on warming which is not a natural part of the balance. As your input shows clearly it has been getting warmer when it should have been cooling.


Man's influence is minimal when it comes to AGW.

Now about cleaning pollution up I'm all for it.
[/quote]


Quote:
Hold on to your knickerbockers mate there's always a lag of sorts, just wait till we get hail the size of soccer balls, I suppose you will still be preaching global warming..... :D


Hail is mainly a summer thing and often results from hot weather this is no indicator for cooling.

In fact likely the opposite. When I was young we seldom had hail any bigger than pea size. Bigger was very rare, Today most hail storms are golf ball size or greater. My wife just had her car replaced with some of the hail damage looking about tennis ball size. Unheard of in my youth.

One thought about hail is that Global warming may result in fewer storms with bigger hail.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 5:16pm

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:59am:
Of course it's true. It's already happening. By Lee's logic he would stand on the train tracks as a train approaches demanding proof it will hit him if he doesn't move.


We know there is warming. We don't know how much because we don't have good data going back. We don't know how much is AGW or how much is natural.

The World Meteorological Organisation set a climate period as 30 yers  because that is the only data they deemed good enough.

Let's look at the ice core data as per Skep Sci -



Now if CO2 is the control knob of warming then we should see spike for the Holocene Optimum when it was warmer. That is about 7k to 9k years ago. Nope. No spike similar to 20th century warming.
 
The Minoan Warm period about 3.5k years ago when it was about 4c warmer? Nope no great spike there.

The Roman Warm Period about 2k years ago? Not really.

The Mediaeval Warm Period about 1k years ago?  Maybe. But before CO2 was a problem.

So does that look like CO2 controls temperature? Not to me it doesn't.

But I will let you draw your own conclusions.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 5:19pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 11:14pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 10:54pm:

lee wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 7:47pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Nobody is saying we will all die.



"As newly anointed Democratic thought-leader Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., once reminded us, "like, the world is gonna end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/spend-93-trillion-on-the-green-new-deal-or-well-all-die-in-like-12-years[/url]

[url]
Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
I would be making a list of the names of people with your view who are blocking action and if the science turns out to be true your descendants would be the ones at risk and going without.


Oh. Only IF it turns out to be true. That means there is some likelihood of it not being true. Who knew? ;D ;D ;D

What are the statistics for those scientists who believe in AGW to the 95% confidence level? ;)


Of course there is a chance that the dominant scientific view could be wrong, I would think that they are only at about 95% probability. If you want to risk the life of your descendants on that other 5% go ahead.


How could it be wrong? The world's heating up and CO2 is creating the heat. CO2 output and temperature rise correlate perfectly. And the CO2 comes from burning the fuel that creates that heat.

Our energy is making the world hotter. The only way to make it cooler is to stop doing things, or do them using the energy that's already there - sun, wind, sea.

Year 9 maths, innit.


Nope. First from your explanation you must tell us how CO2 creates heat.

And of cause correlation is not causation.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 6:17pm

lee wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 5:16pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:59am:
Of course it's true. It's already happening. By Lee's logic he would stand on the train tracks as a train approaches demanding proof it will hit him if he doesn't move.


We know there is warming. We don't know how much because we don't have good data going back. We don't know how much is AGW or how much is natural.

The World Meteorological Organisation set a climate period as 30 yers  because that is the only data they deemed good enough.

Let's look at the ice core data as per Skep Sci -



Now if CO2 is the control knob of warming then we should see spike for the Holocene Optimum when it was warmer. That is about 7k to 9k years ago. Nope. No spike similar to 20th century warming.
 
The Minoan Warm period about 3.5k years ago when it was about 4c warmer? Nope no great spike there.

The Roman Warm Period about 2k years ago? Not really.

The Mediaeval Warm Period about 1k years ago?  Maybe. But before CO2 was a problem.

So does that look like CO2 controls temperature? Not to me it doesn't.

But I will let you draw your own conclusions.


We do know that human CO2 emissions are causing warming. Copying and pasting some text written by a primary school student is no better than copying and pasting their excel plots.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:08pm

lee wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 5:19pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 11:14pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 10:54pm:

lee wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 7:47pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Nobody is saying we will all die.



"As newly anointed Democratic thought-leader Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., once reminded us, "like, the world is gonna end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/spend-93-trillion-on-the-green-new-deal-or-well-all-die-in-like-12-years[/url]

[url]
Dnarever wrote on Apr 6th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
I would be making a list of the names of people with your view who are blocking action and if the science turns out to be true your descendants would be the ones at risk and going without.


Oh. Only IF it turns out to be true. That means there is some likelihood of it not being true. Who knew? ;D ;D ;D

What are the statistics for those scientists who believe in AGW to the 95% confidence level? ;)


Of course there is a chance that the dominant scientific view could be wrong, I would think that they are only at about 95% probability. If you want to risk the life of your descendants on that other 5% go ahead.


How could it be wrong? The world's heating up and CO2 is creating the heat. CO2 output and temperature rise correlate perfectly. And the CO2 comes from burning the fuel that creates that heat.

Our energy is making the world hotter. The only way to make it cooler is to stop doing things, or do them using the energy that's already there - sun, wind, sea.

Year 9 maths, innit.


Nope. First from your explanation you must tell us how CO2 creates heat.

And of cause correlation is not causation.


Atmospheric C02 causing heating is not in question, nobody with a IQ greater than that of a dead wombat disagrees with that.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:19pm

lee wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 5:16pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:59am:
Of course it's true. It's already happening. By Lee's logic he would stand on the train tracks as a train approaches demanding proof it will hit him if he doesn't move.


We know there is warming. We don't know how much because we don't have good data going back. We don't know how much is AGW or how much is natural.

The World Meteorological Organisation set a climate period as 30 yers  because that is the only data they deemed good enough.

Let's look at the ice core data as per Skep Sci -



Now if CO2 is the control knob of warming then we should see spike for the Holocene Optimum when it was warmer. That is about 7k to 9k years ago. Nope. No spike similar to 20th century warming.
 
The Minoan Warm period about 3.5k years ago when it was about 4c warmer? Nope no great spike there.

The Roman Warm Period about 2k years ago? Not really.

The Mediaeval Warm Period about 1k years ago?  Maybe. But before CO2 was a problem.

So does that look like CO2 controls temperature? Not to me it doesn't.

But I will let you draw your own conclusions.



Quote:
Now if CO2 is the control knob of warming then we should see spike for the Holocene Optimum when it was warmer.


Considering that this warm period is attributed to the earths tilt and orbit in this period why would you expect to see higher C02. Nobody has ever said that CO2 is the only possible driver for temperature increases.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:01pm

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 4:04pm:
Carbon taxes are the best way to get there.


Then we all agree, dear.

But I'm curious. How do we tax the CO2 from agriculture and transport and aviation? They make more CO2 than manufacturing and electricity generation.

That's a question.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:05pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:08pm:
Atmospheric C02 causing heating is not in question, nobody with a IQ greater than that of a dead wombat disagrees with that.


Your claim was that CO2 CREATES heat.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:19pm:
Nobody has ever said that CO2 is the only possible driver for temperature increases.


You do know the term "Control knob"?

"Carbon dioxide is the largest single contributor to human-induced climate change. NASA describes it as 'the principal control knob that governs the temperature of Earth'."

http://www.climatechange.environment.nsw.gov.au/About-climate-change-in-NSW/Causes-of-climate-change


But of course it is not the sole cause. But apparently it is the only single cause they can think of.

Then of course CO2 lags temperature.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:11pm

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 6:17pm:
We do know that human CO2 emissions are causing warming.


It is possible that CO2 overcomes natural variation. It has not been proved. Most of any Warming caused by CO2 mostly happens within the first 100ppm.


freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 6:17pm:
Copying and pasting some text written by a primary school student is no better than copying and pasting their excel plots.


You have proof of this, or is it merely your assumption because you disagree? ;)

BTW - You still haven't posted a reference for you claim that the "vast majority of climate scientists who agree with AGW". Or is yours a fact free zone?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:49pm
BTW - The latest paper by Cheng et al 2019 -



2018 Continues Record Global Ocean Warming

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00376-019-8276-x

The thing to note is that is in zettajoules althought temperatures from Argo buoys are taken in ºC. So they have to first convert it to zettajoules. It takes about twenty-six hundred zettajoule to raise the temperature of the top two kilometres of the ocean by 1°C. 2,600 ZJ per degree.

They claim, if we look at the graph, that back in 1955 we knew the ocean heat content of the top two kilometres to +/- 95 joules or  ± 0.04°C. Further by 2018 they claim accuracy to 9 joules or 0.003°C or 3 one thousandths of a degree. I doubt we know the temperature of the worlds oceans to within 1.0°C; but I could be wrong. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:53pm

lee wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:05pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:08pm:
Atmospheric C02 causing heating is not in question, nobody with a IQ greater than that of a dead wombat disagrees with that.


Your claim was that CO2 CREATES heat.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 7:19pm:
Nobody has ever said that CO2 is the only possible driver for temperature increases.


You do know the term "Control knob"?

"Carbon dioxide is the largest single contributor to human-induced climate change. NASA describes it as 'the principal control knob that governs the temperature of Earth'."

http://www.climatechange.environment.nsw.gov.au/About-climate-change-in-NSW/Causes-of-climate-change


But of course it is not the sole cause. But apparently it is the only single cause they can think of.

Then of course CO2 lags temperature.



Quote:
But apparently it is the only single cause they can think of.


you seem to add and subtract bits to make it sound like what you are saying is sensible.

You changed this statement from what was originally said that it was the main human created cause known. That is not saying it is the only cause. In cases like the one you gave earlier where the Holocene Optimum was involved  nobody claimed that it was Human induced or caused by an increase in Carbon Dioxide It is ludicrous to consider it relevant.

Yes carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is considered the major Human contribution to warming. This has never meant that if the worlds axis were to move or the orbit changed that there would not be global warming or cooling as a result, that argument is just stupid.

You are mixing and matching different issues with different causes and trying to say that it has some sort of relevance.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:49pm

Quote:
It is possible that CO2 overcomes natural variation. It has not been proved.


You cannot prove that a train about to run over you is going to run over you until it runs over you. That's why anyone with half a brain learns to live without absolute certainty from the age of about 3.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:03pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:53pm:
You changed this statement from what was originally said that it was the main human created cause known.



Which statement is that. You seem confused.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:53pm:
In cases like the one you gave earlier where the Holocene Optimum was involved  nobody claimed that it was Human induced or caused by an increase in Carbon Dioxide It is ludicrous to consider it relevant.



The truth is no one can truly KNOW. It is a consensus position.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:53pm:
Yes carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is considered the major Human contribution to warming.


perhaps you didn't get the memo. But please provide a link to the paper ha says CO2 is the major human contribution. To do that you would have to have 2 out of 3 parameters.

Total CO2 = Natural CO2 plus Human caused CO2. Given two we can work out the third. Now of course you could tell us in your estimation which two parameters we have. Or again provide a paper.

BTW - You do know that natural causes are the greatest causes of CO2 emissions into the atmosphere? Human emissions are somewhere about 3-4%.

"Water Vapor Confirmed as Major Player in Climate Change"

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/vapor_warming.html


Dnarever wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:53pm:
You are mixing and matching different issues with different causes and trying to say that it has some sort of relevance.


You could always quote scientific papers instead of your assertions. ;)



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:07pm

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 9:49pm:
You cannot prove that a train about to run over you is going to run over you until it runs over you. That's why anyone with half a brain learns to live without absolute certainty from the age of about 3.


If the train is moving in my direction and it is on the same track as me, and doesn't stop; I can certainly tell that I would be run over if I didn't move. You? And that is only three variables. Climate has far more variables than that, and they are not all known or their interactions one to another.

So you have nothing. Why am I not surprised. Not even the "vast majority of climate scientists who agree with AGW". Then of course we would have to somehow extrapolate those who agree with AGW but not that it is catastrophic. And if it isn't catastrophic why should we spend billions of dollars on it?

Just multiple assertions that I should accept as truth.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:18pm

Quote:
If the train is moving in my direction and it is on the same track as me, and doesn't stop; I can certainly tell that I would be run over if I didn't move. You? And that is only three variables. Climate has far more variables than that, and they are not all known or their interactions one to another.

So you have nothing.


I have a scientific consensus on the science of climate change, an economic consensus on the economics of climate change, and bipartisan support for action on climate change.

You have schoolboy plots from pleaselietome.com and a laughably childish approach to dealing the the uncertainty of living in the real world.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:34pm

freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:18pm:
I have a scientific consensus on the science of climate change, an economic consensus on the economics of climate change, and bipartisan support for action on climate change.


If it is consensus it isn't science. If it is science it isn't consensus. Science doesn't revolve around consensus.

According to scientific "consensus" the earth was once the centre of our universe. The Sun moved around us.

Economics is not science. Although economists like to insist it is.


freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 10:18pm:
You have schoolboy plots from pleaselietome.com and a laughably childish approach to dealing the the uncertainty of living in the real world.


And there you lost the argument because you haven't shown anything like that to be true. Simply because you don't like what has been posted. That level of debate is abysmal. ;)

Did you know the graph I provided from Cheng et al (Hausfather) is from a climate alarmist? Never mind.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 7th, 2019 at 11:02pm
Einstein - "When asked about the book, Einstein retorted by saying “Why 100 authors? If I were wrong, then one would have been enough!”

http://weeklysciencequiz.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-hundred-authors-against-einstein.html

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:53am

Quote:
If it is consensus it isn't science. If it is science it isn't consensus. Science doesn't revolve around consensus.


Sure it does. You should have covered this in grade 8 science. Thomas Kuhn wrote an interesting book on how this process contributes to the amazing gains in science.

Science never has relied on proof of anything, because it is not actually possible to prove a scientific theory.


Quote:
According to scientific "consensus" the earth was once the centre of our universe. The Sun moved around us.


Before the scientific revolution, before there was a meaningful scientific community to reach consensus, and before the modern scientific method rose to prominence. You always struggle with your timeline. I'm surprised you are not telling me it was the same scientists.


Quote:
Economics is not science. Although economists like to insist it is


No, but it does tell you a lot about economics. I'm glad you finally realised what this thread is about.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 8th, 2019 at 8:23am

lee wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 11:02pm:
Einstein - "When asked about the book, Einstein retorted by saying “Why 100 authors? If I were wrong, then one would have been enough!”

http://weeklysciencequiz.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-hundred-authors-against-einstein.html


To date, I don't think any credible source has argued global warming's not happening, Lee, but feel free to prove me wrong.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 4:46pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 8:23am:
To date, I don't think any credible source has argued global warming's not happening, Lee,


yes. Now show the CO2 impact. Not using climate models because they are not science either. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 4:51pm

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:53am:
Sure it does. You should have covered this in grade 8 science.


So consensus is science. Einstein didn't think so and that was after "the scientific revolution, before there was a meaningful scientific community to reach consensus, and before the modern scientific method rose to prominence."

"When asked about the book, Einstein retorted by saying “Why 100 authors? If I were wrong, then one would have been enough!” - that was a consensus by 100 authors. ;)

You still haven't gotten back to me about "the vast majority of climate scientists". ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 4:59pm

lee wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 4:51pm:
You still haven't gotten back to me about "the vast majority of climate scientists".



Isn't this the consensus you were talking about? So how can we have a consensus if we don't know the numbers?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:44pm

Quote:
So consensus is science.


It is part of the modern scientific method. It is even taught in high school science.


Quote:
Einstein didn't think so


You struggle to put a coherent sentence together, but you claim to speak on behalf of Einstein? Einsteins scientific revolutions were only possible because of the preceding consensus.


Quote:
Isn't this the consensus you were talking about? So how can we have a consensus if we don't know the numbers?


Have you been living under a rock?


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 7:02pm

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
It is part of the modern scientific method. It is even taught in high school science.


"Osborne and colleagues (2003) have proposed taking a consensus view to identify the ideas about science that should be part of the school science curriculum"

https://www.nap.edu/read/11625/chapter/8#170

So post-modern science. ;)


freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
You struggle to put a coherent sentence together, but you claim to speak on behalf of Einstein?


No petal. I quoted him. Perhaps you can find someone who disagrees with him. That is the way science is supposed to work.


freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
Einsteins scientific revolutions were only possible because of the preceding consensus.


Nope. As evidenced by the 100 authors, they were the "preceding consensus". He overturned their "preceding consensus".


freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
Have you been living under a rock?


No petal. You haven't told us which survey of consensus on which you rely. If you can't answer then you are pontificating from ignorance. Again not a good debating point.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 8th, 2019 at 7:03pm
You completely missed the point Lee. Taking a "consensus approach" as you quoted is nothing at all to do with what we were discussing.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 7:11pm

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 7:03pm:
Taking a "consensus approach" as you quoted is nothing at all to do with what we were discussing.



The consensus approach is what the "vast majority of climate scientists" is all about.


freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2019 at 6:32pm:
Would you describe the vast majority of climate scientists who agree with AGW, and the economic consensus on pricing mechanisms, and the bipartisan support for action on climate change as "alarmist"?


You were the who raised that.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 8th, 2019 at 8:48pm

lee wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 7:11pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 7:03pm:
Taking a "consensus approach" as you quoted is nothing at all to do with what we were discussing.



The consensus approach is what the "vast majority of climate scientists" is all about.


freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2019 at 6:32pm:
Would you describe the vast majority of climate scientists who agree with AGW, and the economic consensus on pricing mechanisms, and the bipartisan support for action on climate change as "alarmist"?


You were the who raised that.


And you still can't tell the difference eh?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:00pm

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 8:48pm:
And you still can't tell the difference eh?



Oh dear. You can't even provide any evidence of your assertions. Too bad.

Bye.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:17pm
Which assertion in particular do you want evidence of? That you do not understand what you are talking about?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:32pm

lee wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 4:46pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 8:23am:
To date, I don't think any credible source has argued global warming's not happening, Lee,


yes. Now show the CO2 impact. Not using climate models because they are not science either. ;)


I'm afraid you'll need to explain that one, Lee.

Please explain?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:38pm
Lee, perhaps you did not realise, but science is entirely about building models of reality.

Is this really the best the climate skeptics can come up with?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:43pm

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:38pm:
Lee, perhaps you did not realise, but science is entirely about building models of reality.

Is this really the best the climate skeptics can come up with?


You haven't said anything yourself, dear. At least Lee's posted a few inscrutable graphs.

You?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Auggie on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:10pm

freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 6:59pm:
Schools. Roads. Hospitals. Police.


Sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system and public health.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:18pm

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:17pm:
Which assertion in particular do you want evidence of? That you do not understand what you are talking about?


You mean you have forgotten your assertion about the "vast majority of climate scientists"? oh dear.

Poor freediver - the fact free zone.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:20pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
I'm afraid you'll need to explain that one, Lee.

Please explain?



it has been warming. The CO2 causal link is tenuous at best.

I have never denied that the earth has been warming.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:41pm

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:38pm:
Lee, perhaps you did not realise, but science is entirely about building models of reality.


Yes. Unfortunately climate science does not have models that reflect reality. ;)

Some models have fuctionality, some don't. Engineering models have functionality. They reflect what is known about bridges, planes etc. And they work. because the underlying maths is well understood. Which doesn't mean mistakes can't happen.

Climate models have a wonderful array of parameters. Parameters are inputs into the computer models of things that are not well understood. Just because it comes from a computer model doesn't make it rolled gold let alone solid gold.

Have you heard of GIGO? For most it means Garbage In, Garbage Out. For climate science it tends to be interpreted as Garbage In, Gospel Out.

If you have a look at the IPCC AR5 Chapter 9 Table 9.5 page 78 of 126 of the pdf or Page number 818 overall you will find a list of parameters for a number of computer models.

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1AR5_Chapter09_FINAL.pdf

"With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk."

John von Neumann.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:42pm
*

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:53pm

lee wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:20pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
I'm afraid you'll need to explain that one, Lee.

Please explain?



it has been warming. The CO2 causal link is tenuous at best.

I have never denied that the earth has been warming.


Good to know, Lee.

So how's the link tenuous?

I believe that's what FD asked you.

Hard to tell, I know.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 8th, 2019 at 11:18pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:53pm:
So how's the link tenuous?


Because the effect of CO2 is diminishing logarithmically. As I posted much earlier the greatest effect is within the first 100ppm.

Ajax provided a graph and that is held to be true by all climate scientists.

Even the IPCC agrees.

"Equilibrium GCM 2 x CO2 experiments commonly assume a radiative forcing equivalent to a doubling of CO2 concentration (for example from 300 ppmv to 600 ppmv). In fact the absolute concentrations are not especially important, as the temperature response to increasing CO2 concentration is logarithmic - a doubling from 500 to 1000 ppmv would have approximately the same climatic effect."

https://www.ipcc-data.org/guidelines/pages/reporting.html

The fact that Estimated Climate Sensitivity hasn't changed in 40 years is a problem with all the money that has been thrown at the problem. If it was urgent you would think they could have worked on that. It is still estimated to be 1.5C to 4.5C per doubling by the IPCC although newer research suggests the lower figure.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:00am

lee wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:18pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:17pm:
Which assertion in particular do you want evidence of? That you do not understand what you are talking about?


You mean you have forgotten your assertion about the "vast majority of climate scientists"? oh dear.

Poor freediver - the fact free zone.


Like I said, you'd have to be living under a rock to miss that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Existence_of_a_scientific_consensus

Do you have any evidence of the sun farting black holes at us? Or climate scientists travelling back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am
So why hasn't IPCC called off climate change?

Because they still say it's a problem, right?

The problem is, you keep changing your reasons. Sometimes it's cooling, sometimes CO2's great, a kooky article from here and there. You change your reasons like the weather, but do you know?

You'll always be a climate denier. Your aim is to deny it's happening, no matter what.

The rest of us can see the bleeding obvious. The world's heating because of global development. This is so obvious it's intuitive. You believe the world's impervious. The rest of us can see the environment change because of us.

I think that's your issue with climate change. It's not the science, it's the idea that we need to clean up after ourselves. You know, a greenie, globalist, Soros, one-world government plot.

No matter what the science says, Lee, you'll always believe that.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 9th, 2019 at 11:34am

freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:00am:
Like I said, you'd have to be living under a rock to miss that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Existence_of_
a_scientific_consensus



Oh dear A wiki fanboy. You do know even schools warn against using wiki as a reference? It isn't reliable. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 9th, 2019 at 12:07pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
So why hasn't IPCC called off climate change?

Because they still say it's a problem, right?


Got it in one. The IPCC works under the auspices of the UNFCC, which is under UNEP It was set up by one Maurice Strong.

"Farewell to the man who invented 'climate change’"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/paris-climate-change-conference/12035401/Farewell-to-the-man-who-invented-climate-change.html

He also said “We may get to the point where the only way of saving the world will be for industrialized civilization to collapse. Isn’t it our responsibility to bring this about?”

Now where have we heard those sentiments expressed?

Christina Figueres - "This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution".


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
Sometimes it's cooling, sometimes CO2's great, a kooky article from here and there. You change your reasons like the weather, but do you know?


And you know about weather, right? How the 7 day predictions last about 72 hours? And climate, according to the WMO, is merely the average of 30 years weather.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
You'll always be a climate denier. Your aim is to deny it's happening, no matter what.


Perhaps you can show where I have denied climate? Or even perhaps where I have denied climate changes? Climate changes at least monthly, seasonally, annually. Did you see the recent report about the North Atlantic Oscillation? It has overturned which happens periodically. It is now causing cooling around Greenland. It has a periodicity of 60-80 years; so you would need at least two climate periods to observe it full effect, probably more.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
The world's heating because of global development. This is so obvious it's intuitive.


So you believe in gut instinct over science? That's for you to contemplate.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
You believe the world's impervious.


Nope. Now you are getting emotional and making sch!t up.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
You know, a greenie, globalist, Soros, one-world government plot.



Funny you mentioned that - read more about Maurice Strong and Agenda 21 and Rio 1992. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:55am:
No matter what the science says, Lee, you'll always believe that.



You finally got something right. I will believe in the SCIENCE. Not Climate ScienceTM.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Captain Nemo on Apr 9th, 2019 at 12:29pm
Just file this one away for future reference  ;)

https://youtu.be/PpyHjxbXlJA

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm
Lee, you can't present yourself as the voice of science and reason in this debate. You dismiss the science.

Science is merely used here to present one of two world views:

1. Please dispose of your rubbish in the bins provided

&

2. Kill em all, let God sort it out.

The consequences of our pollution are pretty clear: an ocean of plastic bags, fish stocks running out, record extinction of wildlife, record rainforest clearing, soil and water degradation, and an overheating planet.

You believe this is some leftist, Soros-funded agenda. The rest of us can see it with our own eyes.

The only grey areas here are the ones you seek to insert. As the human population grows and develops, we can't throw out our rubbish. Economic development means more cars on the road, more urban development, more air conditioners, more meat and fish consumption and even more plastic bags. This development is happening now faster than at any other time in history. Of course it's having an effect on the planet.

The consequence of all this is hardly a socialist conspiracy, but this is exactly what you believe. You don't believe the science. Instead, you look for excuses to prove it wrong.

You're free to have your views, but you can't possibly defend them with science. You're left, I'm afraid, with that increasingly popular phenomenon: FAKE news.



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 9th, 2019 at 2:41pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
The consequences of our pollution are pretty clear: an ocean of plastic bags, fish stocks running out, record extinction of wildlife, record rainforest clearing, soil and water degradation, and an overheating planet.



Ocean of plastic bags? the Pacific gyre repeats.

Fish stocks running out? Perhaps put some blame on the Chinese with their vast fishing fleets. The Pacific nations made a deal and got stuck.

Record extinction of wildlife? Only  on a model based on the number of unknown species that must have been wiped out because we didn't know about them.

Record rain forest clearing? Something to blame man for. But clearing for palm oil plantations is the sole prerogative of the host countries. Clearing for food as well.

Soil and water degradation? You mean like those countries that can't afford deep wells and the electricity to draw it up?

An overheating planet? Really? Such arrant nonsense. It has been warmer in the past and we didn't die out. Neither did the poor poley bears and penguins. ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
You believe this is some leftist, Soros-funded agenda. The rest of us can see it with our own eyes.


I am not sure what you see with your own eyes. It doesn't seem to be much.You seem to accept everything on faith. The High Church of AGW.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
The only grey areas here are the ones you seek to insert


Oh you mean like the climate science that says the net effect of clouds on temperature is likely positive? That kind of grey area?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
As the human population grows and develops, we can't throw out our rubbish. Economic development means more cars on the road, more urban development, more air conditioners, more meat and fish consumption and even more plastic bags. This development is happening now faster than at any other time in history. Of course it's having an effect on the planet.


And nowhere have I said any different. You know the one great source of energy in the world that we don't use because of fear mongers? Nuclear power. If we closed coal fired power station it would save an enormous amount. But it has to be cheap and reliable.Something neither solar or wind are. That's why they need battery backup or fossil fuel backup.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
You don't believe the science. Instead, you look for excuses to prove it wrong.


But that is the role of science. It is scientists trying to disprove a theory or hypothesis. Not a consensus that it must be right. If scientists won't do it every thinking person has to look at it. Even citizen scientists.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
You're free to have your views, but you can't possibly defend them with science.


And yet I have. The uncertainties are so large you could drive two Haulpaks side by side through them. Sorry, that is an exaggeration exactly as you use them.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
You're left, I'm afraid, with that increasingly popular phenomenon: FAKE news.


So now Nature magazine, Science Direct etc are fake news sites? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

You could of course provide peer-reviewed articles that debunk what I have said; instead of relying on your gut instinct. Strange you haven't done that to support your views. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 9th, 2019 at 3:52pm
Thanks Lee........ 8-)

Well ladies and gentlemen there you have it straight from the archbishops / Vatican (IPCC)'s mouth on Anthropogenic Global Warming..

They even have the gall to put it right under your nose.

Study that highlighted sentence and try to understand what it means.

Only then will you be able extricate yourselves from this false religion called AGW.

Become a sheep dog and stop being a sheeple........!!!



https://www.ipcc-data.org/guidelines/pages/reporting.html

Just in case you have difficulty seeing it,


Quote:
In fact the absolute concentrations are not especially important, as the temperature response to increasing CO2 concentration is logarithmic - a doubling from 500 to 1000 ppmv would have approximately the same climatic effect.


The CO2 logarithmic graph



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:05pm

Quote:
But that is the role of science. It is scientists trying to disprove a theory or hypothesis. Not a consensus that it must be right.


Nay, dear, there must indeed be a consensus to prove it right. The scientific method is a process of peer review. None of your arguments have been found to be sound - not a one.

After all, you don't get any points for trying to disprove a thesis. To date, no one has disproved the science of global warming.

If they did, we could all breathe a huge sigh of relief.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:14pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:05pm:

Quote:
But that is the role of science. It is scientists trying to disprove a theory or hypothesis. Not a consensus that it must be right.


Nay, dear, there must indeed be a consensus to prove it right. The scientific method is a process of peer review. None of your arguments have been found to be sound - not a one.

After all, you don't get any points for trying to disprove a thesis. To date, no one has disproved the science of global warming.

If they did, we could all breathe a huge sigh of relief.




Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by John Smith on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:29pm
Ajax, is that ewe?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:38pm

John Smith wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:29pm:
Ajax, is that ewe?


Haha nahhhh that's not me....!

I would think that's your reflectional in the mirror... :D

That's me right there in black and white...... ;)



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:38pm
shooting

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:39pm
blanks again.....sorry........... :)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:39pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:05pm:
Nay, dear, there must indeed be a consensus to prove it right.


Nope. In science nothing is proved right. it is only proved wrong. Rad up on the null hypothesis.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:05pm:
The scientific method is a process of peer review.


And Climate ScienceTM is more about Pal review.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:05pm:
None of your arguments have been found to be sound - not a one.


So says the man who won't quote any report peer-reviewed or not. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:05pm:
After all, you don't get any points for trying to disprove a thesis.


But that is what science is supposed to be about.

"The two primary features of a scientific hypothesis are falsifiability and testability, which are reflected in an “If…then” statement summarizing the idea and in the ability to be supported or refuted through observation and experimentation. The notion of the scientific hypothesis as both falsifiable and testable was advanced in the mid-20th century by Austrian-born British philosopher Karl Popper."

https://www.britannica.com/science/scientific-hypothesis

Falsifiable - proving the theory or hypothesis wrong.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:05pm:
To date, no one has disproved the science of global warming.


You do understand the difference between the science of global warming and the amount of global warming? How much of any warming is man-made; that is AGW? Of course if you are paid to look for AGW you don't want to put yourself out of a job.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:05pm:
If they did, we could all breathe a huge sigh of relief.



Jobs, high paying jobs rely on it. AGW is a billion dollar a year industry. Just think what that could do for the poor in those countries that die from using dung fires for food and warmth.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by BigP on Apr 9th, 2019 at 6:05pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:38pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 4:29pm:
Ajax, is that ewe?


Haha nahhhh that's not me....!

I would think that's your reflectional in the mirror... :D

That's me right there in black and white...... ;)




More than a hint of collie there Ajax

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 9th, 2019 at 6:55pm

lee wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 11:34am:

freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:00am:
Like I said, you'd have to be living under a rock to miss that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Existence_of_
a_scientific_consensus



Oh dear A wiki fanboy. You do know even schools warn against using wiki as a reference? It isn't reliable. ;D ;D ;D ;D


I thought you might be able to look at the long list of references yourself. They exist, regardless of wikipedia. After the idiocy you have copied and pasted here, mostly unsourced, it's a bit hypocritical for you to have a go at wikipedia. But I guess blatant hypocrisy is pretty much a pre-requisite these days to be a climate skeptic.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:33pm

freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 6:55pm:
I thought you might be able to look at the long list of references yourself. They exist, regardless of wikipedia. After the idiocy you have copied and pasted here, mostly unsourced, it's a bit hypocritical for you to have a go at wikipedia. But I guess blatant hypocrisy is pretty much a pre-requisite these days to be a climate skeptic.



You men like Nature magazine, IPCC?

Now that wiki article says there is a consensus on climate change. Although that wasn't my argument. I said science wasn't done by consensus.

"Among the most-cited is a 2013 study of nearly 12,000 abstracts science published since 1990, of which just over 4,000 papers expressed an opinion on the cause of recent global warming. Of these, 97% agree, explicitly or implicitly, that global warming is happening and is human-caused.[2][3]"


So ok I looked at a reference. John Cook et al 2013.

Now I have linked to this before because quite often people say the Cook et al paper says that 97% of climate scientists say global warming is happening and is human caused.

From the paper referenced -

"We analyze the evolution of the scientific consensus on anthropogenic global warming (AGW) in the peer-reviewed scientific literature, examining 11 944 climate abstracts from 1991–2011 matching the topics 'global climate change' or 'global warming'. We find that 66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming. Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming."

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/2/024024

11.,944 papers. 68.4% had no opinion.
32.6% endorsed AGW
0.7% rejected, and
0.3% were unsure.

From that we can take that 33.3% expressed an opinion on climate change (lines 2 and 3). 97.1% of that 33.3% of abstracts (not climate scientists) endorsed the consensus.

So 33.3% of 97.1% is  32.33%. NOT 97% of abstracts or climate scientists.

Further the number of climate scientists who said more than 50% warming was due to AGW was 0.3% or 41 papers.

This can be seen at -

https://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/2/024024/media/erl460291datafile.txt

Reference "Endorsement"

And should you wish to look you can see the ratings given at column 3.

https://skepticalscience.com/docs/self_vs_abstracts_private.txt

Enjoy.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:42pm

Quote:
You men like Nature magazine, IPCC?


I cannot say. You copied and pasted a lot of incredibly stupid or irrelevant stuff in this thread without saying where you got it from. I'm guessing this is the irrelevant stuff?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:44pm

freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:42pm:
I'm guessing this is the irrelevant stuff?


much like your guessing on climate change and the CONsensus. ;D ;D ;D ;D

And I shot down your ONLY reference.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:53pm

Quote:
Of course if you are paid to look for AGW you don't want to put yourself out of a job.


When Mr Abbott defunded the Climate Commission, they went and became the volunteer Climate Council.

How do academics make money out of climate change? If it didn't exist, they'd merely research and write articles on other stuff.

The only people making money out of climate change that I can see are those paid to write your research paid for by the fossil fuel lobby.

You?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:02pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:53pm:
When Mr Abbott defunded the Climate Commission, they went and became the volunteer Climate Council.



The Climate Council is a volunteer organisation? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

"We’re made up of some of the country’s leading climate scientists, energy, health and policy experts, as well as a dedicated team of staff, and a huge community of volunteers and supporters who support our work."

"The Climate Council was founded in 2013 by tens of thousands of supporters, in Australia’s largest ever crowd-funding campaign, to create a new, independent and 100% community-funded organisation in response to the abolition of the Australian Climate Commission.  "

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/faqs/

You did notice they didn't say THEY volunteer. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:53pm:
How do academics make money out of climate change? If it didn't exist, they'd merely research and write articles on other stuff.


it saves them looking for another job. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:53pm:
The only people making money out of climate change that I can see are those paid to write your research paid for by the fossil fuel lobby.


You mean like Nature magazine, IPCC, NASA? All those fossil fuel funded organisations? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

What a tool.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 7:53pm:
You?


I am  paid by the Feds under either Labor or the Coalition, and if I don't win Lotto that won't change. You see petal I am an old age pensioner with a small super. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:34pm

lee wrote on Mar 27th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
• ...civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind,” biologist George Wald, Harvard University, April 19, 1970.


Lee you posted this on the first page of this thread. Can you explain why you think it is relevant and not stupid? And why did you not give the source?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 9th, 2019 at 10:43pm

freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:34pm:
Can you explain why you think it is relevant and not stupid?



Because alarmists have always been with us.


Edit : OOPs. asked and answered already.


freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Lee can you explain why you think that is relevant?



freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 8:34pm:
And why did you not give the source?



How many do you want? Couldn't you Google it?


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 9th, 2019 at 11:58pm
Of course they volunteer. I know people who volunteer there, including Tim Flannery.

You?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am

Quote:
Because alarmists have always been with us.


Why do you think this is this relevant to carbon taxes? And not stupid?


Quote:
How many do you want? Couldn't you Google it?


I want the source you got it from. Did you copy half the sentence from one source and half from another? Can I google why you do not provide sources or why you are being evasive about them? Do you think it is a bit hypocritical of you to criticse me for referring to wikipedia after all the stupid and irrelevant things you have copied and pasted here without sources?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 10th, 2019 at 8:21am
Remember, Lee. Sometimes a question is just a question.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 11:57am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 9th, 2019 at 11:58pm:
Of course they volunteer. I know people who volunteer there, including Tim Flannery.


Wow. Lucky you. Why don't they advertise that they volunteer? Because as I said it isn't on their website. merely that they have volunteers.

"Contractors and Volunteers
We would also like to thank the
following staff, contractors and
volunteers who worked for the
Climate Council during the year:
› Dr David Alexander
› Zoe Edwards
› Sue-Ellen Simic
› Samantha Wright
› Kirsten Tidswell
› Lily Spencer
› Bronwyn Hogan
› Dylan Pursche
› Anastasia Yule
› Kim Robinson
› Jennifer Neil-Smith
› Huw Jones
› Madhavi Anne Patterson
› Kathryn Lewis
› Deborah Johnson
› Caitlin Williamson
› Martyna Kotowska
› Stephanie Rigney
› Ash Kelly
› Sophie Gosch
› Ashley Agar
› Felipe Avancine
› Victoria Bridges
› Tamara Zivotic
› Kristy Cohen
› Dilara Yilmaz
› Veronika Kadomskaia"

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Annual-Report-2018.pdf

Definitely not listed as a volunteer.

However -

"Professor Flannery says he and his fellow former commissioners will volunteer their time to get the council started."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-24/tim-flannery-to-relaunch-climate-commission/4976608

it is now well past 2013 and the Climate Council is well and truly started.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:05pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
Why do you think this is this relevant to carbon taxes? And not stupid?


Because the carbon tax is all about politics and fear.


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
I want the source you got it from.



Do you? Poor petal.


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
Did you copy half the sentence from one source and half from another?


No.




freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
Can I google why you do not provide sources or why you are being evasive about them?


Can you Google at all? All you have to do is google the whole quote.

https://www.ihatethemedia.com/earth-day-predictions-of-1970-the-reason-you-should-not-believe-earth-day-predictions-of-2009


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
Do you think it is a bit hypocritical of you to criticse me for referring to wikipedia after all the stupid and irrelevant things you have copied and pasted here without sources?


No. What about those things I posted with references?

If you want an answer to a specific thing I posted let e know what it is.

I will tell you whether it is my own thoughts or from elsewhwere.  ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:09pm
Indeed. So as you can see, Lee, the science of climate change is not motivated by government funds at all. The Climate Council used to be an actual government department. Now it's a registered charity staffed by volunteers.

If the science of climate change was simply about making money, the number one Australian agency would hardly be a not-for-profit organisation, now would it?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:59pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:09pm:
So as you can see, Lee, the science of climate change is not motivated by government funds at all.



ooh, one outlier proves it all false. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:09pm:
Now it's a registered charity staffed by volunteers.


Yes. Is Tim Flannery on that staff as a volunteer?  It was your claim he was a volunteer.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:09pm:
If the science of climate change was simply about making money, the number one Australian agency would hardly be a not-for-profit organisation, now would it?



Where did I say it was SIMPLY about making money? Is the Climate Council the Number ONE Agency? Above CSIRO and BoM?

Remember this?

"The unprecedented bleaching events on the Great Barrier Reef in 2016 and 2017 resulted in mass coral mortality, with the 2016 bleaching event at least 175 times more likely to occur due to intensifying climate change."

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/resources/reef-in-peril/

It seems it is recovering nicely. How does something that died "recover"?

https://www.iflscience.com/environment/the-great-barrier-reef-is-showing-significant-signs-of-recovery/

You do understand the difference between the coral and the colourful symbionts which get ejected when reefs get under stress? It happens when there is a rapid change in water temperature, both up and down. Reefs have been around for millions of years and survived warmer and cooler climates. That would make them pretty hardy. Some coral reefs even get exposed at low water and survive. Fancy that.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:28pm

lee wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:05pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
Why do you think this is this relevant to carbon taxes? And not stupid?


Because the carbon tax is all about politics and fear.


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
I want the source you got it from.



Do you? Poor petal.


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
Did you copy half the sentence from one source and half from another?


No.




freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
Can I google why you do not provide sources or why you are being evasive about them?


Can you Google at all? All you have to do is google the whole quote.

https://www.ihatethemedia.com/earth-day-predictions-of-1970-the-reason-you-should-not-believe-earth-day-predictions-of-2009


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 5:19am:
Do you think it is a bit hypocritical of you to criticse me for referring to wikipedia after all the stupid and irrelevant things you have copied and pasted here without sources?


No. What about those things I posted with references?

If you want an answer to a specific thing I posted let e know what it is.

I will tell you whether it is my own thoughts or from elsewhwere.  ;)


So you copied and pasted something idiotic and irrelevant from "ihatethemedia.com", declined several times to provide the source, but do not think it hypocritical to criticise me for giving a link to wikipedia?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:37pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:28pm:
So you copied and pasted something idiotic and irrelevant from "ihatethemedia.com", declined several times to provide the source, but do not think it hypocritical to criticise me for giving a link to wikipedia?



I will break it down into easy pieces for you to comprehend.

"So you copied and pasted something idiotic and irrelevant from "ihatethemedia.com","

No it is relevant as alarmism has always been with us and the call for a carbon tax is alarmist.

"declined several times to provide the source,"

poor petal. unable to google to see that it appears on a number of threads.


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:28pm:
but do not think it hypocritical to criticise me for giving a link to wikipedia?


Exactly right. School and Uni's don't recommend it as it is unreliable. Look at the poor 97% meme on climate scientists.

And you only provided the one source for all your posts. Talk about hypocritical.

Have a nice day.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Frank on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:44pm
WHEN Ernest Shackleton and his men marched towards the South Pole in December 1908, they came across something entirely unexpected. After scaling the vast Beardmore glacier on the edge of the polar plateau, they found seams of coal amid the snow and ice. They also found impressions of leaves in sandstone boulders nearby and even fossilised wood from a coniferous tree.

The conclusion was extraordinary but inescapable: Antarctica was once warm and forested, conditions that could hardly be more different to the far-below-freezing midsummer weather that forced Shackleton’s team to turn back before reaching the pole. How was this possible?

Four years later, Alfred Wegener put forward his theory of continental drift which, it was later realised, could explain the balmy climate: Antarctica had been warmer because it was once much closer to the equator. Even today, some schoolchildren are taught that continental drift accounts for all the evidence for a warmer Antarctica.

However, the fossil trees Shackleton’s team discovered grew around 250 million years ago, when Antarctica was barely closer to the equator than it is today. What’s more, the continent reached its current position roughly 100 million years ago, and an ever-growing list of fossil finds date from 100 to 40 million years ago. During this time, when dinosaurs roamed the almost subtropical forests of an ice-free Antarctic, conditions on the other side of the planet were even more remarkable: the Arctic Ocean was a gigantic freshwater lake infested with crocodile-like reptiles.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826611-200-when-crocodiles-roamed-the-arctic/

AGW is one of the biggest hoaxes in history, up there with the Brave New Worlds of Communism, Fascism, redemption, the quest for the perpetuum mobile and the rest of the hubristic nonsense humanity is always eager for.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:51pm

lee wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:37pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:28pm:
So you copied and pasted something idiotic and irrelevant from "ihatethemedia.com", declined several times to provide the source, but do not think it hypocritical to criticise me for giving a link to wikipedia?



I will break it down into easy pieces for you to comprehend.

"So you copied and pasted something idiotic and irrelevant from "ihatethemedia.com","

No it is relevant as alarmism has always been with us and the call for a carbon tax is alarmist.

"declined several times to provide the source,"

poor petal. unable to google to see that it appears on a number of threads.


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:28pm:
but do not think it hypocritical to criticise me for giving a link to wikipedia?


Exactly right. School and Uni's don't recommend it as it is unreliable. Look at the poor 97% meme on climate scientists.

And you only provided the one source for all your posts. Talk about hypocritical.

Have a nice day.


It's irrelevant Lee. It is nor more relevant than asking you to explain some other random idiocy I found on the internet because everything else you post is stupid.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:53pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:51pm:
It is nor more relevant than asking you to explain some other random idiocy I found on the internet because everything else you post is stupid.


A lame attempt at a comeback. poor petal lost the argument again. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 10th, 2019 at 7:17pm
Lee does climate skepticism ever get any less stupid? "You are being alarmist. As evidence, here is a quote that is completely irrelevant, except that it is also alarmist"

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 7:52pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 7:17pm:
Lee does climate skepticism ever get any less stupid? "You are being alarmist. As evidence, here is a quote that is completely irrelevant, except that it is also alarmist"



That was supposed to make sense? ;D ;D ;D ;D

BTW- did you know that the 2000 economists thing is over 20 years old and has never been updated?

Not only that they actually don't state anything concrete.

http://dieoff.org/page105.htm

It was based on the Second Assessment Report (SAR). The Third Assessment Report in chapter 14 stated -

"“In sum, a strategy must recognize what is possible. In climate research and modelling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/WGI_TAR_full_report.pdf

So what the economists supported was something that can't be modelled long term. Therefore they couldn't possibly have determined any long term benefits/costs of their policies. ;)


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:16pm
"You are being alarmist. As evidence, here is a quote that is completely irrelevant, except that it is also alarmist"

No Lee it does not make much sense does it? If there is a hidden pearl of wisdom in your post, do let us know. Otherwise people might think it really is that stupid.

No wonder the climate skeptics prefer to copy and paste. Lee cannot do much better than a word association game, and when Ajax tried, we got the sun farting black holes at us and time travelling scientists going back to 1920 to disagree with themselves. It's kind of hard to argue with someone who can barely string a sentence together.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:42pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:16pm:
No wonder the climate skeptics prefer to copy and paste.



And you haven't even reached those dizzy heights. just your feelings. ;)


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:16pm:
t's kind of hard to argue with someone who can barely string a sentence together.


And yet you don't make any sense in yours.

Remember the graph you showed months ago that purportedly showed how good solar power availability was? It had to be pointed out that your graph showed power usage at 2.30am; well before the sun was up. It only showed that power usage was declining.

BTW - You didn't respond about your 2000 economists. I thought what I wrote was succinct and readable. Even by you.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:53pm

lee wrote on Mar 27th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
• ...civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind,” biologist George Wald, Harvard University, April 19, 1970.


Other than mistaking a word association game with an actual argument, is there any way in which this post is not stupid and irrelevant?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:57pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:53pm:
Other than mistaking a word association game with an actual argument, is there any way in which this post is not stupid and irrelevant?



Oh dear. freediver has lost the plot. Can't even answer simple questions about his noticeboard. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:04pm

lee wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:59pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:09pm:
So as you can see, Lee, the science of climate change is not motivated by government funds at all.



ooh, one outlier proves it all false. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:09pm:
Now it's a registered charity staffed by volunteers.


Yes. Is Tim Flannery on that staff as a volunteer?  It was your claim he was a volunteer.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:09pm:
If the science of climate change was simply about making money, the number one Australian agency would hardly be a not-for-profit organisation, now would it?



Where did I say it was SIMPLY about making money? Is the Climate Council the Number ONE Agency? Above CSIRO and BoM?

Remember this?

"The unprecedented bleaching events on the Great Barrier Reef in 2016 and 2017 resulted in mass coral mortality, with the 2016 bleaching event at least 175 times more likely to occur due to intensifying climate change."

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/resources/reef-in-peril/

It seems it is recovering nicely. How does something that died "recover"?

https://www.iflscience.com/environment/the-great-barrier-reef-is-showing-significant-signs-of-recovery/

You do understand the difference between the coral and the colourful symbionts which get ejected when reefs get under stress? It happens when there is a rapid change in water temperature, both up and down. Reefs have been around for millions of years and survived warmer and cooler climates. That would make them pretty hardy. Some coral reefs even get exposed at low water and survive. Fancy that.


I understand, Lee. CO2 even effects the coral.

So if climate science is not about making a buck, what exactly is it?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:05pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:51pm:

lee wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:37pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:28pm:
So you copied and pasted something idiotic and irrelevant from "ihatethemedia.com", declined several times to provide the source, but do not think it hypocritical to criticise me for giving a link to wikipedia?



I will break it down into easy pieces for you to comprehend.

"So you copied and pasted something idiotic and irrelevant from "ihatethemedia.com","

No it is relevant as alarmism has always been with us and the call for a carbon tax is alarmist.

"declined several times to provide the source,"

poor petal. unable to google to see that it appears on a number of threads.


freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:28pm:
but do not think it hypocritical to criticise me for giving a link to wikipedia?


Exactly right. School and Uni's don't recommend it as it is unreliable. Look at the poor 97% meme on climate scientists.

And you only provided the one source for all your posts. Talk about hypocritical.

Have a nice day.


It's irrelevant Lee. It is nor more relevant than asking you to explain some other random idiocy I found on the internet because everything else you post is stupid.


Oooh!

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:07pm

lee wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:57pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:53pm:
Other than mistaking a word association game with an actual argument, is there any way in which this post is not stupid and irrelevant?



Oh dear. freediver has lost the plot. Can't even answer simple questions about his noticeboard. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Ask him about porkies. He tends to freeze up when you do that.

What sound does dying coral on the Great Barrier Reef make?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:10pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:04pm:
I understand, Lee. CO2 even effects the coral.



That must be why there are even corals growing around underwater CO2 vents. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:12pm

lee wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:10pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:04pm:
I understand, Lee. CO2 even effects the coral.



That must be why there are even corals growing around underwater CO2 vents. ;)


Indeed. It is a jolly world, no?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:52pm
"This is shown by the following figure, in which very healthy corals are growing above a carbon dioxide vent: "



https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2010/06/scientists-got-it-wrong/

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 11th, 2019 at 12:06am

lee wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:52pm:
"This is shown by the following figure, in which very healthy corals are growing above a carbon dioxide vent: "



https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2010/06/scientists-got-it-wrong/


Wow. So the Barrier Reef's all good then, eh?

What a relief.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:19am

lee wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:57pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:53pm:
Other than mistaking a word association game with an actual argument, is there any way in which this post is not stupid and irrelevant?



Oh dear. freediver has lost the plot. Can't even answer simple questions about his noticeboard. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


No Lee. I do not recall that. I do recall you copying and pasting some incredibly stupid things, whose source you tried to conceal, then getting all confused and trying to change the subject. Do you recall that?

For example, from the first page of this thread:


lee wrote on Mar 27th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
• ...civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind,” biologist George Wald, Harvard University, April 19, 1970.


Other than mistaking a word association game with an actual argument, is there any way in which this post is not stupid and irrelevant?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 11th, 2019 at 4:17pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 12:06am:
Wow. So the Barrier Reef's all good then, eh?


There is wear on the reef. Google cyclone damage. There is also a paper detailing bleaching going back many years. It is not a new phenomenon.

"Reconstructing Four Centuries of Temperature-Induced Coral Bleaching on the Great Barrier Reef"

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2018.00283/full

Besides that El Ninos cause coral bleaching as the water, pushed west by Trade Winds, "sloshes" back to the east when the Trade Winds die. That water lowers the low water mark in the West. Lower water depth heats up more quickly than deeper water.

Which is not to say El Ninos are the sole cause of bleaching.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best term memoery loss?
Post by lee on Apr 11th, 2019 at 4:19pm

freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:19am:
I do not recall that.



Short term memory loss? ;D ;D ;D


freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:19am:
I do recall you copying and pasting some incredibly stupid things, whose source you tried to conceal, then getting all confused and trying to change the subject. Do you recall that?



No petal. please tell us more.


freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 7:19am:
Other than mistaking a word association game with an actual argument, is there any way in which this post is not stupid and irrelevant?



ooh Iteration. That really helps you out of the hole. NOT. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by BigP on Apr 11th, 2019 at 4:50pm
Why dont you guys start flashing your PhDs, in chemistry and biology ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 11th, 2019 at 9:51pm

lee wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 4:17pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 12:06am:
Wow. So the Barrier Reef's all good then, eh?


There is wear on the reef. Google cyclone damage. There is also a paper detailing bleaching going back many years. It is not a new phenomenon.

"Reconstructing Four Centuries of Temperature-Induced Coral Bleaching on the Great Barrier Reef"

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2018.00283/full

Besides that El Ninos cause coral bleaching as the water, pushed west by Trade Winds, "sloshes" back to the east when the Trade Winds die. That water lowers the low water mark in the West. Lower water depth heats up more quickly than deeper water.

Which is not to say El Ninos are the sole cause of bleaching.


Wear on the reef from what, Lee? It's been there for thousands of years.

You?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 11th, 2019 at 10:19pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 9:51pm:
Wear on the reef from what, Lee? It's been there for thousands of years.




lee wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 4:17pm:
Google cyclone damage.



Cyclones Yasi, Debbie an Ingrid.

"Impacts of a severe tropical cyclone on inshore and offshore coral reefs
Cyclone Ingrid
Cyclone Ingrid, Cat 5 with 240 Km/h lores.

© all rights reserved
Tropical storms (cyclones, hurricanes or typhoons) are the most severe form of mechanical disturbance of coral reefs. In 2005, the severe Tropical Cyclone Ingrid crossed the Far Northern Great Barrier Reef. This storm provided a unique opportunity to improve understanding of the extent and type of damage inflicted on inshore and offshore coral reefs along a gradient of wind speeds. Surveys of 82 sites on 32 reefs along the wind gradient showed that the types and intensity of disturbance were well explained by local maximum wind speed, and by spatial and biotic factors. While offshore reefs had the deepest depth of damage, inshore reefs had the greatest rates of coral breakage and dislodgement."

https://eatlas.org.au/content/impacts-severe-tropical-cyclone-inshore-and-offshore-coral-reefs

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Frank on Apr 12th, 2019 at 6:17pm

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:16pm:
"You are being alarmist. As evidence, here is a quote that is completely irrelevant, except that it is also alarmist"

No Lee it does not make much sense does it? If there is a hidden pearl of wisdom in your post, do let us know. Otherwise people might think it really is that stupid.

No wonder the climate skeptics prefer to copy and paste. Lee cannot do much better than a word association game, and when Ajax tried, we got the sun farting black holes at us and time travelling scientists going back to 1920 to disagree with themselves. It's kind of hard to argue with someone who can barely string a sentence together.



Lemme try, without cutting and pasteing.

There is no evidence anywhere that human carbon dioxide causes climate change.  The idea is preposterous. for many reasons, the two main ones, in my view are:
We do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. Human generated CO2 is a vanishingly small proportion of atmospheric gases, something approaching 0.0042 %. That's less than 1% OF 1%. Australia's share of that? Around 2% of the 1% of the 1%.

We do not fully understand how the climate works and how its various aspects work and interact. Models are models of partial and inadequate understanding of what is modelled. 

The 'extreme weather events' are not new but we know about them - and about more of them - because of vastly improved communication, not because they occur more often.   



That the Greens are all hot for 'climate change' should be a huge warning to all thinking people.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 12th, 2019 at 6:38pm

Quote:
Lemme try, without cutting and pasting.


Congratulations on being a climate skeptic and also being able to compose a coherent sentence. It's a rare combination.

Can you provide sources for you statistics?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 12th, 2019 at 7:48pm

lee wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 10:19pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 9:51pm:
Wear on the reef from what, Lee? It's been there for thousands of years.




lee wrote on Apr 11th, 2019 at 4:17pm:
Google cyclone damage.



Cyclones Yasi, Debbie an Ingrid.

"Impacts of a severe tropical cyclone on inshore and offshore coral reefs
Cyclone Ingrid
Cyclone Ingrid, Cat 5 with 240 Km/h lores.

© all rights reserved
Tropical storms (cyclones, hurricanes or typhoons) are the most severe form of mechanical disturbance of coral reefs. In 2005, the severe Tropical Cyclone Ingrid crossed the Far Northern Great Barrier Reef. This storm provided a unique opportunity to improve understanding of the extent and type of damage inflicted on inshore and offshore coral reefs along a gradient of wind speeds. Surveys of 82 sites on 32 reefs along the wind gradient showed that the types and intensity of disturbance were well explained by local maximum wind speed, and by spatial and biotic factors. While offshore reefs had the deepest depth of damage, inshore reefs had the greatest rates of coral breakage and dislodgement."

https://eatlas.org.au/content/impacts-severe-tropical-cyclone-inshore-and-offshore-coral-reefs


Is that all?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:19pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
Is that all?


What more do you want? It seems to me that wind, wave and storm action is "wear". Or you could call it damage . But the damage is due to wear. Whatever floats your boat.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:43pm

Frank wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 6:17pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:16pm:
"You are being alarmist. As evidence, here is a quote that is completely irrelevant, except that it is also alarmist"

No Lee it does not make much sense does it? If there is a hidden pearl of wisdom in your post, do let us know. Otherwise people might think it really is that stupid.

No wonder the climate skeptics prefer to copy and paste. Lee cannot do much better than a word association game, and when Ajax tried, we got the sun farting black holes at us and time travelling scientists going back to 1920 to disagree with themselves. It's kind of hard to argue with someone who can barely string a sentence together.



Lemme try, without cutting and pasting.

There is no evidence anywhere that human carbon dioxide causes climate change.  The idea is preposterous. for many reasons, the two main ones, in my view are:
We do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. Human generated CO2 is a vanishingly small proportion of atmospheric gases, something approaching 0.0042 %. That's less than 1% OF 1%. Australia's share of that? Around 2% of the 1% of the 1%.

We do not fully understand how the climate works and how its various aspects work and interact. Models are models of partial and inadequate understanding of what is modelled. 

The 'extreme weather events' are not new but we know about them - and about more of them - because of vastly improved communication, not because they occur more often.   



That the Greens are all hot for 'climate change' should be a huge warning to all thinking people.


How about that, FD? No evidence whatsoever. Always absolutely never ever.

Please forgive the old boy here. He does blame Islam, after all.

Feel free to remind us that the biggest threat to our world is the Muselman.

Now we can all get some sleep, no?


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:47pm

freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 6:38pm:

Quote:
Lemme try, without cutting and pasting.


Congratulations on being a climate skeptic and also being able to compose a coherent sentence. It's a rare combination.

Can you provide sources for you statistics?


Now now, FD,
lee wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:19pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
Is that all?


What more do you want? It seems to me that wind, wave and storm action is "wear". Or you could call it damage . But the damage is due to wear. Whatever floats your boat.


Not pesticides or rising acid levels from CO2, eh?

Gee, Lee, you must have discovered the only article that blames cyclones.

Is that what you mean by the scientific method?

The old boy and FD blame Islam. You?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:12pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:47pm:
Not pesticides or rising acid levels from CO2, eh?



Rising acid levels from CO2? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

The ocean is not acid anywhere, even those oceans beside CO2 vents, which you would think would be more susceptible, don't show any acidic levels. Those CO2 vents emit higher CO2 levels than are in the atmosphere. And they have been doing that for who knows how long?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:47pm:
Gee, Lee, you must have discovered the only article that blames cyclones.


Actually there are more than 3, one for each cyclone. And do you think cyclones are only a recent event? They just didn't seem to look at cyclones prior for reef damage. So the reefs have been round for thousands of years and have never impacted reefs before? You really should try a search on how long levels have been around.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 8:47pm:
Is that what you mean by the scientific method?


No petal. The MSM is not the scientific method. But that's your preferred method of "learning".

Most pesticides are actually plant derivative.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm
But of course, dear. Higher Ph levels make the oceans more acidic. This kills fish and coral. Scientific consensus, innit.

If you want to pretend, post more krap.

Cyclones. It is a jolly world, no?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:31pm

lee wrote on Mar 27th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
• ...civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind,” biologist George Wald, Harvard University, April 19, 1970.


Other than mistaking a word association game with an actual argument, is there any way in which this post is not stupid and irrelevant? Do you ever get jealous of Frank's ability to write his own sentences and still be a climate skeptic?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:46pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
But of course, dear. Higher Ph levels make the oceans more acidic. This kills fish and coral. Scientific consensus, innit.



No petal. Higher pH levels mean the ocean is more alkaline.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
If you want to pretend, post more krap.


Coming from you that is hilarious.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:50pm

freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:31pm:
Do you ever get jealous of Frank's ability to write his own sentences and still be a climate skeptic?


No petal.

But I will have have to cut and paste. How else do you show statistics?  ;)

And you don't like that because you prefer a world without references other than your own "beliefs".

From Science Direct -

"Scrutinizing the carbon cycle and CO2 residence time in the atmosphere"


"The anthropogenic contribution to the actual CO2 concentration is found to be 4.3%, its fraction to the CO2 increase over the Industrial Era is 15% and the average residence time 4 years."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921818116304787

Now that is a science paper. if you want to crticise it go for it. But it broadly agrees with Skep sci and others that show 29Gt out of 750Gt of anthro CO2.

Now Australia's CO2 emissions are listed as about 549Mt CO2e.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2018/jan/09/australias-emissions-are-rising-its-time-for-this-government-to-quick-pretending

Global emissions are 37.1Gt CO2e.

https://www.wri.org/blog/2018/12/new-global-co2-emissions-numbers-are-they-re-not-good

Now that gives 549/37100 = 1.4% for Australia's share for the year.

So we have 4.3% of emissions are anthro and Australia has 1.4% of those anthro emissions which makes Australia's share 0.06% of global anthro emissions.

Of course Australia's net emissions are less than that because Australia is a net CO2 sink. Which means Australia has no net emissions.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am

lee wrote on Mar 27th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
• ...civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind,” biologist George Wald, Harvard University, April 19, 1970.


Do those stats explain why you posted this on the first page of this thread Lee?


Quote:
So we have 4.3% of emissions are anthro


According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:07am

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate.


Take it up with Frank. I gave you the science.
But I notice you didn't find any fault with what I wrote.

Frank did it from memory which is what you asked him for. Memory is a fickle thing it is why I don't rely on it.

I am off for a couple of weeks have fune and play nicely in your sandpit. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:33am

lee wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 10:50pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:31pm:
Do you ever get jealous of Frank's ability to write his own sentences and still be a climate skeptic?


No petal.

But I will have have to cut and paste. How else do you show statistics?  ;)

And you don't like that because you prefer a world without references other than your own "beliefs".

From Science Direct -

"Scrutinizing the carbon cycle and CO2 residence time in the atmosphere"


"The anthropogenic contribution to the actual CO2 concentration is found to be 4.3%, its fraction to the CO2 increase over the Industrial Era is 15% and the average residence time 4 years."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921818116304787

Now that is a science paper. if you want to crticise it go for it. But it broadly agrees with Skep sci and others that show 29Gt out of 750Gt of anthro CO2.

Now Australia's CO2 emissions are listed as about 549Mt CO2e.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2018/jan/09/australias-emissions-are-rising-its-time-for-this-government-to-quick-pretending

Global emissions are 37.1Gt CO2e.

https://www.wri.org/blog/2018/12/new-global-co2-emissions-numbers-are-they-re-not-good

Now that gives 549/37100 = 1.4% for Australia's share for the year.

So we have 4.3% of emissions are anthro and Australia has 1.4% of those anthro emissions which makes Australia's share 0.06% of global anthro emissions.

Of course Australia's net emissions are less than that because Australia is a net CO2 sink. Which means Australia has no net emissions.


Don’t waste your breathe Lee these people fall into category one below and don’t know any better.

1. People who listen to and believe the experts verbatim (the sheeple), they know no other way, their understanding of the natural sciences is limited and therefore they cannot form their own opinion about the evidence/data being presented to them.

2. People who first believed these experts or maybe not depending on their scientific background, for the ones without a scientific background that may have first believed and then have taken the time to investigate both sides of the argument having some nous and being able to come to their own conclusions, the (sheep dog).

3. People who get paid to deliberately fool the unsuspecting (the wolves). 

BTW thanks for those links................. 8-)


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:38am
FD and Karnal one last thought if the Earth was so delicately tuned that all life would be wiped out with an increase in CO2 of a few hundred parts per million.

Then guys we would have been wiped of the face of the Earth many times over way before the industrial revolution.

You should start thinking for yourselves...... ;D :D ;) :)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:41am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?


You mean the 97% consensus.......LMFAO....!!!!

Do you even know how this came about......???

The 97% consensus........LOL..................... :D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:46am

lee wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:46pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
But of course, dear. Higher Ph levels make the oceans more acidic. This kills fish and coral. Scientific consensus, innit.



No petal. Higher pH levels mean the ocean is more alkaline.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
If you want to pretend, post more krap.


Coming from you that is hilarious.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Good point, dear. Thank you. So you admit pH levels are dropping, along with your cyclone theory.

How about glacial melting?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:49am
Everyone shooting blanks.... ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:53am
:ou
Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:38am:
FD and Karnal one last thought if the Earth was so delicately tuned that all life would be wiped out with an increase in CO2 of a few hundred parts per million.

Then guys we would have been wiped of the face of the Earth many times over way before the industrial revolution.

You should start thinking for yourselves...... ;D :D ;) :)


Indeed. But when we dig up all that potential energy under the ground and turn it into CO2, it tends to upset that balance, Ajax.

The earth is only so delicately tuned as there's balance. Turn the continents into cities and highways and palm oil plantations, no worries.

Just put more rainforests in.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:55am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:46am:

lee wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:46pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
But of course, dear. Higher Ph levels make the oceans more acidic. This kills fish and coral. Scientific consensus, innit.



No petal. Higher pH levels mean the ocean is more alkaline.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
If you want to pretend, post more krap.


Coming from you that is hilarious.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Good point, dear. Thank you. So you admit pH levels are dropping, along with your cyclone theory.

How about glacial melting?


But have ph levels dropped because of the 750 giga tonnes of natural CO2 that goes up into the atmosphere every year OR have they dropped because of the 29 giga tonnes man is emitting ever year.

We're not importing CO2 from mars so its part of the Eartly cycle..... ;)

IS it solely CO2 that we have to blame for the ph level drop or could there be other factors that haven't been considered or described to you by the 97% consensus mob.

You really think one little trace gas can accomplish so much.

You know this is a water planet and the greatest green house gas in our atmosphere is moisture and clouds... :P




Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:56am

lee wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate.


Take it up with Frank. I gave you the science.
But I notice you didn't find any fault with what I wrote.

Frank did it from memory which is what you asked him for. Memory is a fickle thing it is why I don't rely on it.

I am off for a couple of weeks have fune and play nicely in your sandpit. ;)


Alt jungend, alt jungend! Wo bist du, alt jungend!

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:00am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:53am:


Indeed. But when we dig up all that potential energy under the ground and turn it into CO2, it tends to upset that balance, Ajax.


We contribute no one can deny that but its so small it doesn't really matter.


Quote:
The earth is only so delicately tuned as there's balance. Turn the continents into cities and highways and palm oil plantations, no worries.


Then we would have been wiped of the face of the Earth when CO2 levels in our past reached 7000ppm, 3000ppm etc etc.

Compared to today 410ppm level.

Your argument is bullsh!t.....!


Quote:
Just put more rainforests in.


Yes lets do that.............. :)

and get countries like Brazil to stop clearing land.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:16am
A hypothetical for you Karnal, we send billions of dollars to Wall street and the United Nations (IPCC) so we can keep atmospheric CO2 low and we spend many more billions of dollars converting to green energy (which I'm not against as long as its cheap for rich and poor alike like fossil fuels once were).

Then our sun gets the measles (black holes) spewing out hot gases at the Earth, the Earth heats up which in turn will increase the natural atmospheric CO2, as the Earth warms more and more CO2 is released from the ground and the oceans.

This event triples, quadruples our atmospheric CO2 we go over 1000ppm.

Money well spent........???

Are we all going to die..........???

That's how fickle and futile trying to control man's emissions of CO2 is.

Vegans will be happy more greens to munch on..... :)


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by The_Barnacle on Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:54am

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:55am:
But have ph levels dropped because of the 750 giga tonnes of natural CO2 that goes up into the atmosphere every year OR have they dropped because of the 29 giga tonnes man is emitting ever year.

We're not importing CO2 from mars so its part of the Eartly cycle..... ;)


I've already corrected you on this nonsense that you post before but you obviously don't understand the carbon cycle.
I'll try again.

CO2 in the atmosphere affects our climate. CO2 buried in the ground (such as coal) does not
The natural carbon cycle means that naturally emitted CO2 roughly balances naturally absorbed CO2.

Human emissions of CO2 are additional and accumulate

There is no need to import CO2 from Mars there is plenty of the stuff buried in the ground - in the form of coal - that we are burning

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Frank on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:29pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?

Hundreds? Name one who said he didn't  agree with me.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:36pm

Frank wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:29pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?

Hundreds? Name one who said he didn't  agree with me.


Name one that knows you ? The one that I know said you are wrong.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:36pm
I see Ajax is back. Do you still think the sun farts black holes at us, and that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?


lee wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate.


Take it up with Frank. I gave you the science.
But I notice you didn't find any fault with what I wrote.


I asked Lee for the source for his stats - which he still has not done. Instead of that, you provided a completely different set of stats.

I also asked you to explain the relevance of this:


lee wrote on Mar 27th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
• ...civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind,” biologist George Wald, Harvard University, April 19, 1970.


So far all you have managed is to blurt out some idiotic word association with alarmism. Did you intend to actually make a point, or just highlight the inability of skeptics in general to make a coherent argument?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:48pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:54am:

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:55am:
But have ph levels dropped because of the 750 giga tonnes of natural CO2 that goes up into the atmosphere every year OR have they dropped because of the 29 giga tonnes man is emitting ever year.

We're not importing CO2 from mars so its part of the Eartly cycle..... ;)


I've already corrected you on this nonsense that you post before but you obviously don't understand the carbon cycle.
I'll try again.

CO2 in the atmosphere affects our climate. CO2 buried in the ground (such as coal) does not
The natural carbon cycle means that naturally emitted CO2 roughly balances naturally absorbed CO2.

Human emissions of CO2 are additional and accumulate

There is no need to import CO2 from Mars there is plenty of the stuff buried in the ground - in the form of coal - that we are burning


You have not corrected anything because you are mistaken……!

You're argument would hold true if we imported CO2 from an alien planet imo.

If then what you say is true then the current increase in atmospheric CO2 would be synchronised to man’s emissions of atmospheric CO2 and evident in observations.

Since the year 2000 to the year 2010 we have emitted 3 times more atmospheric CO2 from the burning of fossil fuels in one way, shape, form or another i.e. manmade CO2 emissions, from the prior decade the years 1990-2000, manmade emissions have increased threefold.

In a nut shell man’s emissions of atmospheric CO2 in the former decade 2000-2010 have grown exponentially compared to the prior decade 1990-2000.

Yet observations over that time in the annual increase of atmospheric CO2 over all those years for both decades follows a temperature induced increase in the natural atmospheric CO2 cycle with man’s emission playing a minor role.

In other words the Earth has heated up since the little ice age and has vented more CO2 into the atmosphere.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/05/22/1929541.htm


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:55pm

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:36pm:
I see Ajax is back. Do you still think the sun farts black holes at us, and that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?


lets hope it doesn't get an upset tummy........ :D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:58pm
Do you recall telling us that the sun farts black holes at us, or that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?

Or do you just regurgitate random idiocy from the internet without paying any attention, like so many online climate skeptics?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:10pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:00am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:53am:


Indeed. But when we dig up all that potential energy under the ground and turn it into CO2, it tends to upset that balance, Ajax.


We contribute no one can deny that but its so small it doesn't really matter.


Quote:
The earth is only so delicately tuned as there's balance. Turn the continents into cities and highways and palm oil plantations, no worries.


Then we would have been wiped of the face of the Earth when CO2 levels in our past reached 7000ppm, 3000ppm etc etc.

Compared to today 410ppm level.

Your argument is bullsh!t.....!

[quote]Just put more rainforests in.


Yes lets do that.............. :)

and get countries like Brazil to stop clearing land.
[/quote]

Actually, Ajax, we haven't been wiped off the face of the earth because the earth balances it out. Instead, we're seeing a consistently rising average temperature.

And yes, once that reaches a certain point, we most certainly will be wiped off the face of the earth, you know that.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:28pm

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:58pm:
Do you recall telling us that the sun farts black holes at us, or that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?

Or do you just regurgitate random idiocy from the internet without paying any attention, like so many online climate skeptics?


Like the computer predictions of the hot spot in the tropopause.....???

Radiosonde data collection boxes on weather balloons failed to find.....??

Oops and satellites failed to find that hot spot too....!!!!

And then we were told that the missing heat in the atmosphere went into the ocean........???....more idiocy......!!!

Only they forgot about the argo system which monitors ocean temperatures down to 2 kilometres.

Oh but then they said it went into the deep ocean...more idiocy....???!!!!

Still the buoys would have picked it up NO....!!!

There are so many holes dude amazing they have conned you, I thought you a person with their wits about them.. ;) :)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:29pm
shooting blanks again.....sorry... :)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:31pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:10pm:

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:00am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:53am:


Indeed. But when we dig up all that potential energy under the ground and turn it into CO2, it tends to upset that balance, Ajax.


We contribute no one can deny that but its so small it doesn't really matter.


Quote:
The earth is only so delicately tuned as there's balance. Turn the continents into cities and highways and palm oil plantations, no worries.


Then we would have been wiped of the face of the Earth when CO2 levels in our past reached 7000ppm, 3000ppm etc etc.

Compared to today 410ppm level.

Your argument is bullsh!t.....!

[quote]Just put more rainforests in.


Yes lets do that.............. :)

and get countries like Brazil to stop clearing land.


Actually, Ajax, we haven't been wiped off the face of the earth because the earth balances it out. Instead, we're seeing a consistently rising average temperature.

And yes, once that reaches a certain point, we most certainly will be wiped off the face of the earth, you know that. [/quote]

We've been heating up since the little ice age.

Mind asking the United Nations IPCC why they took it and the medieval warm period out of their papers...!!!

And replaced it with that fraudulent hockey stick....?



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 13th, 2019 at 5:59pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:28pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:58pm:
Do you recall telling us that the sun farts black holes at us, or that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?

Or do you just regurgitate random idiocy from the internet without paying any attention, like so many online climate skeptics?


Like the computer predictions of the hot spot in the tropopause.....???

Radiosonde data collection boxes on weather balloons failed to find.....??

Oops and satellites failed to find that hot spot too....!!!!

And then we were told that the missing heat in the atmosphere went into the ocean........???....more idiocy......!!!

Only they forgot about the argo system which monitors ocean temperatures down to 2 kilometres.

Oh but then they said it went into the deep ocean...more idiocy....???!!!!

Still the buoys would have picked it up NO....!!!

There are so many holes dude amazing they have conned you, I thought you a person with their wits about them.. ;) :)


Thanks Ajax. All good examples of spewing random idiocy. But let's start with the previous example. Do you recall telling us that the sun farts black holes at us, or that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920? I'm trying to figure out whether you actually feel a sense of shame, or if you do not realise what is happening and just post on auto pilot.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:24pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:41am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?


You mean the 97% consensus.......LMFAO....!!!!

Do you even know how this came about......???

The 97% consensus........LOL..................... :D


Even if it is only 95% or 93% I still put them in front of Frank. Besides the only one talking 97% is you.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Frank on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:07pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:36pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:29pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?

Hundreds? Name one who said he didn't  agree with me.


Name one that knows you ? The one that I know said you are wrong.

Bugger off, Duck. YOU said hundreds disagree with me.

Name one.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:11pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:31pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:10pm:

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 10:00am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:53am:


Indeed. But when we dig up all that potential energy under the ground and turn it into CO2, it tends to upset that balance, Ajax.


We contribute no one can deny that but its so small it doesn't really matter.


Quote:
The earth is only so delicately tuned as there's balance. Turn the continents into cities and highways and palm oil plantations, no worries.


Then we would have been wiped of the face of the Earth when CO2 levels in our past reached 7000ppm, 3000ppm etc etc.

Compared to today 410ppm level.

Your argument is bullsh!t.....!

[quote]Just put more rainforests in.


Yes lets do that.............. :)

and get countries like Brazil to stop clearing land.


Actually, Ajax, we haven't been wiped off the face of the earth because the earth balances it out. Instead, we're seeing a consistently rising average temperature.

And yes, once that reaches a certain point, we most certainly will be wiped off the face of the earth, you know that.


We've been heating up since the little ice age.

Mind asking the United Nations IPCC why they took it and the medieval warm period out of their papers...!!!

And replaced it with that fraudulent hockey stick....?


[/quote]

Good question, Ajax. Who was measuring CO2 levels during the little ice age?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:12pm

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 5:59pm:

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:28pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:58pm:
Do you recall telling us that the sun farts black holes at us, or that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?

Or do you just regurgitate random idiocy from the internet without paying any attention, like so many online climate skeptics?


Like the computer predictions of the hot spot in the tropopause.....???

Radiosonde data collection boxes on weather balloons failed to find.....??

Oops and satellites failed to find that hot spot too....!!!!

And then we were told that the missing heat in the atmosphere went into the ocean........???....more idiocy......!!!

Only they forgot about the argo system which monitors ocean temperatures down to 2 kilometres.

Oh but then they said it went into the deep ocean...more idiocy....???!!!!

Still the buoys would have picked it up NO....!!!

There are so many holes dude amazing they have conned you, I thought you a person with their wits about them.. ;) :)


Thanks Ajax. All good examples of spewing random idiocy. But let's start with the previous example. Do you recall telling us that the sun farts black holes at us, or that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920? I'm trying to figure out whether you actually feel a sense of shame, or if you do not realise what is happening and just post on auto pilot.


Sometimes a question is just a question.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:34pm

Frank wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:36pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:29pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?

Hundreds? Name one who said he didn't  agree with me.


Name one that knows you ? The one that I know said you are wrong.

Bugger off, Duck. YOU said hundreds disagree with me.

Name one.


Oh, there's the Milk Monitor, the Aunty, the Tjurd...

You should be grateful, dear. You'll always have jolly old Mormor.

Is she back in the old country, or did we import her too?

Two for the price of one, no?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 13th, 2019 at 8:38pm

Frank wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:36pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 12:29pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?

Hundreds? Name one who said he didn't  agree with me.


Name one that knows you ? The one that I know said you are wrong.

Bugger off, Duck. YOU said hundreds disagree with me.

Name one.


All at the CSIRO for a start with some locals.

How about we add NASA ?

American Association for the Advancement of Science
"The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a growing threat to society."

American Chemical Society
"Comprehensive scientific assessments of our current and potential future climates clearly indicate that climate change is real, largely attributable to emissions from human activities, and potentially a very serious problem."

American Geophysical Union
"Human‐induced climate change requires urgent action. Humanity is the major influence on the global climate change observed over the past 50 years. Rapid societal responses can significantly lessen negative outcomes."

American Medical Association
"Our AMA ... supports the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s fourth assessment report and concurs with the scientific consensus that the Earth is undergoing adverse global climate change and that anthropogenic contributions are significant."

American Meteorological Society
"It is clear from extensive scientific evidence that the dominant cause of the rapid change in climate of the past half century is human-induced increases in the amount of atmospheric greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide (CO2)......

U.S. National Academy of Sciences
"The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify taking steps to reduce the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere."

International academies: Joint statement
"Climate change is real. There will always be uncertainty in understanding a system as complex as the world’s climate........

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 14th, 2019 at 8:17am
Frank you still have provided the source for those statistics. Were they also from pleaselietome.com?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 14th, 2019 at 10:34am

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 5:59pm:
Thanks Ajax. All good examples of spewing random idiocy.


You have no idea have you.......???

Maybe this is how fact gets passed into myth.


Quote:
But let's start with the previous example. Do you recall telling us that the sun farts black holes at us,


Yes I do, you have no idea..... :D


Quote:
or that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?


Yes I do, like I said you have no idea..... ;D


Quote:
I'm trying to figure out whether you actually feel a sense of shame, or if you do not realise what is happening and just post on auto pilot.


What would you say to someone who is arguing with you and clearly hasn't got a clue...... :P



https://sciencespeak.com/MissingSignature.pdf




http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 14th, 2019 at 10:37am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:11pm:
Good question, Ajax. Who was measuring CO2 levels during the little ice age?


There are plenty of proxies to choose from dear, look some up.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 14th, 2019 at 10:38am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:24pm:
Even if it is only 95% or 93% I still put them in front of Frank. Besides the only one talking 97% is you.


You know what I mean............ ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by The_Barnacle on Apr 14th, 2019 at 10:57am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:24pm:

Ajax wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:41am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?


Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?


You mean the 97% consensus.......LMFAO....!!!!

Do you even know how this came about......???

The 97% consensus........LOL..................... :D


Even if it is only 95% or 93% I still put them in front of Frank. Besides the only one talking 97% is you.



It is the classic MO of human induced global warming deniers.
Cherry pick a statistic. Try and discredit it, and then claim that this demolishes the whole argument of AGW.
Whether it is 98%, 97% or even 90%. the fact is that the vast majority of scientists accept AGW as a reality and politically inspired keyboard warriors arn't going to change that.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 14th, 2019 at 11:10am

The_Barnacle wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 10:57am:
It is the classic MO of human induced global warming deniers.
Cherry pick a statistic. Try and discredit it, and then claim that this demolishes the whole argument of AGW.
Whether it is 98%, 97% or even 90%. the fact is that the vast majority of scientists accept AGW as a reality and politically inspired keyboard warriors arn't going to change that.


Barney do you even know where this statistic came from....??

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 14th, 2019 at 11:10am
[/url]

Please read on................. ;)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/uhenergy/2016/12/14/fact-checking-the-97-consensus-on-anthropogenic-climate-change/#2e380f5f1157

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:14pm

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:36pm:
scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?


lee wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate.


Take it up with Frank. I gave you the science.
But I notice you didn't find any fault with what I wrote.


I asked Lee for the source for his stats - which he still has not done. Instead of that, you provided a completely different set of stats.


Hi I am back.plans change.

Exactly for which stats haven't I provided the source petal?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:27pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:46am:

lee wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:46pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
But of course, dear. Higher Ph levels make the oceans more acidic. This kills fish and coral. Scientific consensus, innit.



No petal. Higher pH levels mean the ocean is more alkaline.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
If you want to pretend, post more krap.


Coming from you that is hilarious.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Good point, dear. Thank you. So you admit pH levels are dropping, along with your cyclone theory.

How about glacial melting?



Where did I say pH levels were dropping?

Did you know pH levels vary by time, by day, by month, by season. Where did they get the data for this?

What time of day was it collected?

Season?

You do understand CO2 might cause pH levels to drop if ONLY it wasn't for that pesky Calcium Carbonate that buffers the CO2 level.

So far you have shown an abysmal LACK of scientific knowledge.

What part of cyclone theory do you consider wrong? Please tell us it will be good for a laugh.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 16th, 2019 at 8:26am

Ajax wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 10:37am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:11pm:
Good question, Ajax. Who was measuring CO2 levels during the little ice age?


There are plenty of proxies to choose from dear, look some up.


You refuse to believe the current measures, but you believe atmospheric levels taken from rocks?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by issuevoter on Apr 16th, 2019 at 8:39am

freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 8:34am:
Putting a price on greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions is the cheapest, most economically efficient way to reduce emissions. Here is a statement of consensus from economists saying the same thing:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Carbon taxes overcome the two primary reasons for opposition to action on climate change:

1) The huge cost. Reducing GHG emissions is very cheap. What makes it expensive is government micromanagement (eg, MRETs, subsidies etc) - which makes about as much sense as asking the government to make and sell computers to us. There are simple ways to reduce emissions that people understand, the government can implement, and which have popular support. But they are the most expensive options. The cheap ways to reduce emissions are technically complex and beyond the reach of direct government intervention.

2) International cooperation. The currently preferred global mechanism is an emissions permit trading scheme. However this requires the creation of what is essentially a global currency, and it requires trust that all foreign governments will manage it correctly. That is a huge, and largely undeserved leap of faith. It also requires massive direct transfers of money between countries, which makes negotiations impossible. The alternative is a minimum agreed tax on GHG emissions. This is far simpler. Each country keeps it's own revenue, raised internally, and gets to "spend" it internally, for example by reducing other taxes.

All it takes is for people to get over their emotional over-reaction to the T word.

More info:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/green-tax-shift.html

I will be giving my first preference votes in both houses in the upcoming federal election to whichever party has the balls to publicly support carbon taxes. Malcolm Turnbull, Julia Gillard and Bob Brown have all publicly supported carbon taxes in the past. John Howard has supported and emissions trading scheme, which is the next best option from an economic perspective.


The first highlight is framed as a fact. It is not and cannot be proven otherwise, without a lengthy experiment, which will be very expensive if it fails to curb emissions. The second highlight is sarcastic and simplistic opinionating.

What we do know about governments is they love new taxes, and the money melts away into a general revenue wasteland.

But the idea that a huge international organisation and policing system to prop up a trading scheme, will actually function, is to put it mildly, naive.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 16th, 2019 at 12:57pm

issuevoter wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 8:39am:

freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 8:34am:
Putting a price on greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions is the cheapest, most economically efficient way to reduce emissions. Here is a statement of consensus from economists saying the same thing:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Carbon taxes overcome the two primary reasons for opposition to action on climate change:

1) The huge cost. Reducing GHG emissions is very cheap. What makes it expensive is government micromanagement (eg, MRETs, subsidies etc) - which makes about as much sense as asking the government to make and sell computers to us. There are simple ways to reduce emissions that people understand, the government can implement, and which have popular support. But they are the most expensive options. The cheap ways to reduce emissions are technically complex and beyond the reach of direct government intervention.

2) International cooperation. The currently preferred global mechanism is an emissions permit trading scheme. However this requires the creation of what is essentially a global currency, and it requires trust that all foreign governments will manage it correctly. That is a huge, and largely undeserved leap of faith. It also requires massive direct transfers of money between countries, which makes negotiations impossible. The alternative is a minimum agreed tax on GHG emissions. This is far simpler. Each country keeps it's own revenue, raised internally, and gets to "spend" it internally, for example by reducing other taxes.

All it takes is for people to get over their emotional over-reaction to the T word.

More info:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/green-tax-shift.html

I will be giving my first preference votes in both houses in the upcoming federal election to whichever party has the balls to publicly support carbon taxes. Malcolm Turnbull, Julia Gillard and Bob Brown have all publicly supported carbon taxes in the past. John Howard has supported and emissions trading scheme, which is the next best option from an economic perspective.


The first highlight is framed as a fact. It is not and cannot be proven otherwise, without a lengthy experiment, which will be very expensive if it fails to curb emissions. The second highlight is sarcastic and simplistic opinionating.

What we do know about governments is they love new taxes, and the money melts away into a general revenue wasteland.

But the idea that a huge international organisation and policing system to prop up a trading scheme, will actually function, is to put it mildly, naive.


It is framed as a fact because it is so far beyond question.

BTW, scientific experiments do not establish facts. They are an attempt to disprove a hypothesis, but still rely on observation without elevating it to some immutable truth.

The coalition is heading into the next election with a policy of significantly reducing the tax burden, so you are wrong on that one too. The tax burden inevitably falls back to what people vote for.

All taxes are supposed to go into general revenue, including carbon taxes. They do not work so well because of how the money is spent, but because of how it is collected.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 19th, 2019 at 7:11pm

lee wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:14pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:36pm:
scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?


lee wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 7:18am:
According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate.


Take it up with Frank. I gave you the science.
But I notice you didn't find any fault with what I wrote.


I asked Lee for the source for his stats - which he still has not done. Instead of that, you provided a completely different set of stats.


Hi I am back.plans change.

Exactly for which stats haven't I provided the source petal?


My bad, it was Frank. You provided the stats that support AGW.


Frank wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 6:17pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:16pm:
"You are being alarmist. As evidence, here is a quote that is completely irrelevant, except that it is also alarmist"

No Lee it does not make much sense does it? If there is a hidden pearl of wisdom in your post, do let us know. Otherwise people might think it really is that stupid.

No wonder the climate skeptics prefer to copy and paste. Lee cannot do much better than a word association game, and when Ajax tried, we got the sun farting black holes at us and time travelling scientists going back to 1920 to disagree with themselves. It's kind of hard to argue with someone who can barely string a sentence together.



Lemme try, without cutting and pasteing.

There is no evidence anywhere that human carbon dioxide causes climate change.  The idea is preposterous. for many reasons, the two main ones, in my view are:
We do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. Human generated CO2 is a vanishingly small proportion of atmospheric gases, something approaching 0.0042 %. That's less than 1% OF 1%. Australia's share of that? Around 2% of the 1% of the 1%.

We do not fully understand how the climate works and how its various aspects work and interact. Models are models of partial and inadequate understanding of what is modelled. 

The 'extreme weather events' are not new but we know about them - and about more of them - because of vastly improved communication, not because they occur more often.   



That the Greens are all hot for 'climate change' should be a huge warning to all thinking people.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 19th, 2019 at 7:52pm

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 7:11pm:
You provided the stats that support AGW.



Really? Exactly how much AGW is supported by the stats?

We have  an hypothesis, we have the effect of CO2 being logarithmically reduced, - just how much AGW is that?

Then we have natural variation. Recently reported is the fact of the North Atlantic Oscillation overturning. it has been reported that this is causing cooling off Greenland and slowing glacier calving. So that natural variation has in some small part overcome any AGW.

They do say that AGW will resume when the NAO is overturned again.

Seeing as the periodicity of the NAO is given as 60-80 years, that is some way off. And we know what the IPCC said about the climate models it the Third Assessment report -

"In climate research and modeling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

Now 60 - 80 years is long term no matter how much you slice it and dice it.

So how much of the warming is from AGW?

That is what needs to be determined. If it is not catastrophic why do anything?


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:41pm
It has been determined.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:43pm

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:41pm:
It has been determined.


Another one of your fact free zones. ;D ;D ;D ;D

You could try giving us this science. Or a newspaper that references the science. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:59pm

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 7:52pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 7:11pm:
You provided the stats that support AGW.



Really? Exactly how much AGW is supported by the stats?

We have  an hypothesis, we have the effect of CO2 being logarithmically reduced, - just how much AGW is that?

Then we have natural variation. Recently reported is the fact of the North Atlantic Oscillation overturning. it has been reported that this is causing cooling off Greenland and slowing glacier calving. So that natural variation has in some small part overcome any AGW.

They do say that AGW will resume when the NAO is overturned again.

Seeing as the periodicity of the NAO is given as 60-80 years, that is some way off. And we know what the IPCC said about the climate models it the Third Assessment report -

"In climate research and modeling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

Now 60 - 80 years is long term no matter how much you slice it and dice it.

So how much of the warming is from AGW?

That is what needs to be determined. If it is not catastrophic why do anything?


We are going through a cooling period and it is still getting warmer, what do you think happens when we go into a warming period ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:11pm

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:43pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:41pm:
It has been determined.


Another one of your fact free zones. ;D ;D ;D ;D

You could try giving us this science. Or a newspaper that references the science. ;)


Just check the latest IPCC report. It has everything you need to know. Unless of curse you'd rather go after Walrus documentaries.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:20pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:59pm:
We are going through a cooling period and it is still getting warmer, what do you think happens when we go into a warming period ?



ohh long term predictions. exactly what the IPCC says can't be done. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:23pm

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:43pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:41pm:
It has been determined.


Another one of your fact free zones. ;D ;D ;D ;D

You could try giving us this science. Or a newspaper that references the science. ;)


Yes, but I think FD's trying to make your case for you, Lee.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:24pm

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:11pm:

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:43pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:41pm:
It has been determined.


Another one of your fact free zones. ;D ;D ;D ;D

You could try giving us this science. Or a newspaper that references the science. ;)


Just check the latest IPCC report. It has everything you need to know. Unless of curse you'd rather go after Walrus documentaries.


Do you think it might be useful to post it, FD? Lee and I might like to have a little look-see.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:29pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 8:59pm:

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 7:52pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 7:11pm:
You provided the stats that support AGW.



Really? Exactly how much AGW is supported by the stats?

We have  an hypothesis, we have the effect of CO2 being logarithmically reduced, - just how much AGW is that?

Then we have natural variation. Recently reported is the fact of the North Atlantic Oscillation overturning. it has been reported that this is causing cooling off Greenland and slowing glacier calving. So that natural variation has in some small part overcome any AGW.

They do say that AGW will resume when the NAO is overturned again.

Seeing as the periodicity of the NAO is given as 60-80 years, that is some way off. And we know what the IPCC said about the climate models it the Third Assessment report -

"In climate research and modeling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

Now 60 - 80 years is long term no matter how much you slice it and dice it.

So how much of the warming is from AGW?

That is what needs to be determined. If it is not catastrophic why do anything?


We are going through a cooling period and it is still getting warmer, what do you think happens when we go into a warming period ?


To date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:33pm

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:11pm:
Just check the latest IPCC report. It has everything you need to know.



Oh you mean the new IPCC special report that used RCP 8.5 as its basis? The RCP 8.5 that even climate scientists say isn't feasible? That report? Those projections?

Or do you mean where they actually stated what has happened?

About extreme weather -

"Floods

"There was low confidence due to limited evidence, however, that anthropogenic climate change has affected the frequency and magnitude of floods. WGII AR5 also concluded that there is no evidence that surface water and groundwater drought
frequency has changed over the last few decades, although impacts of drought have increased mostly owing to increased water demand (Jiménez Cisneros et al., 2014)"

Drought

"The IPCC AR5 assessed that there was low confidence in the sign of drought trends since 1950 at the global scale, but that there was high confidence in observed trends in some regions of the world, including drought increases in the Mediterranean and West Africa and drought decreases in central North America and northwest Australia (Hartmann et al., 2013; Stocker et al., 2013). AR5 assessed that there was low confidence in the attribution of global changes in droughts and did not provide assessments for the attribution of regional changes in droughts (Bindoff et al., 2013a).

The recent literature does not suggest that the SREX and AR5 assessment of drought trends should be revised, except in the Mediterranean region. "

Cyclones

"Numerous studies leading up to and after AR5 have reported a decreasing trend in the global number of tropical cyclones and/or the globally accumulated cyclonic energy (Emanuel, 2005; Elsner et al., 2008; Knutson et al., 2010; Holland and Bruyère, 2014; Klotzbach and Landsea, 2015; Walsh et al., 2016). A theoretical physical basis for such a decrease to occur under global warming was recently provided by Kang and Elsner (2015). However, using a relatively short (20 year) and relatively homogeneous remotely sensed record, Klotzbach (2006) reported no significant trends in global cyclonic activity, consistent with more recent findings of Holland and Bruyère (2014). Such contradictions, in combination with the fact that the almost fourdecade-long period of remotely sensed observations remains relatively short to distinguish anthropogenically induced trends from decadal and multi-decadal variability, implies that there is only low confidencev regarding changes in global tropical cyclone numbers under global warming over the last four decades."

Precipitation

"Observed global changes in the water cycle, including precipitation, are more uncertain than observed changes in temperature (Hartmann et al., 2013; Stocker et al., 2013). There is high confidence that mean precipitation over the mid-latitude land areas of the Northern Hemisphere has increased since 1951 (Hartmann et al., 2013). For other latitudinal zones, area-averaged long-term positive or negative trends have low confidence because of poor data quality, incomplete data or disagreement amongst available estimates (Hartmann et al., 2013). There is, in particular, low confidence regarding observed trends in precipitation in monsoon regions, according to the SREX report (Seneviratne et al., 2012) and AR5 (Hartmann et al., 2013), as well as more recent publications (Singh et al., 2014; Taylor et al., 2017; Bichet and Diedhiou, 2018; see Supplementary Material 3.SM.2)."

https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/chapter/chapter-3/

SR5 also had projections for wildfires but no reference for observations. So I found a scientific paper on wildfires from 2017.

QUOTE
Fire is an essential Earth system process that alters ecosystem and atmospheric composition. Here we assessed long-term fire trends using multiple satellite data sets. We found that global burned area declined by 24.3 ± 8.8% over the past 18 years. The estimated decrease in burned area remained robust after adjusting for precipitation variability and was largest in savannas. Agricultural expansion and intensification were primary drivers of declining fire activity. Fewer and smaller fires reduced aerosol concentrations, modified vegetation structure, and increased the magnitude of the terrestrial carbon sink. Fire models were unable to reproduce the pattern and magnitude of observed declines, suggesting that they may overestimate fire emissions in future projections. Using economic and demographic variables, we developed a conceptual model for predicting fire in human-dominated landscapes.


http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6345/1356

But tell us what you think the report says if you think it says something different.



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:34pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:29pm:
o date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.


Thank you petal. Now all you have to do is substantiate that instead of making assertions. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 19th, 2019 at 10:19pm

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:34pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:29pm:
o date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.


Thank you petal. Now all you have to do is substantiate that instead of making assertions. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Do I?

Which part do you disagree with?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:12pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 10:19pm:
Which part do you disagree with?



You are the one making the claims. Can't back them up? Why am I not surprised?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:17pm

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:34pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:29pm:
o date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.


Thank you petal. Now all you have to do is substantiate that instead of making assertions. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Which part do you disagree with, dear?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:18pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:17pm:

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:34pm:
[quote author=Karnal link=1553553295/212#212 date=1555673359]o date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.


Thank you petal. Now all you have to do is substantiate that instead of making assertions. ;D ;D ;D ;


Why? You agree, no?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:20pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:18pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:17pm:

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:34pm:
[quote author=Karnal link=1553553295/212#212 date=1555673359]o date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.


Thank you petal. Now all you have to do is substantiate that instead of making assertions. ;D ;D ;D ;


Why? You agree, no?



You agree with yourself? too funny.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:22pm

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:20pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:18pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:17pm:

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:34pm:
[quote author=Karnal link=1553553295/212#212 date=1555673359]o date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.


Thank you petal. Now all you have to do is substantiate that instead of making assertions. ;D ;D ;D ;


Why? You agree, no?



You agree with yourself? too funny.


I most certainly do. And you agree too, no?

You have to. You said it, dear.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:25pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:22pm:
And you agree too, no?

You have to. You said it, dear.


Did I? Then you have the proof and only need to post it as I asked in the first place. No?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:27pm

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:25pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:22pm:
And you agree too, no?

You have to. You said it, dear.


Did I? Then you have the proof and only need to post it as I asked in the first place. No?


Why? You've stated most of the above in this thread.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:35pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 12:27pm:
Why? You've stated most of the above in this thread.



Then that should be easy even for you to provide the evidence. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by The_Barnacle on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:07pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:29pm:
To date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.


That's lee's MO
He never likes to take a position on anything.......except to discredit, obfuscate, confuse and ask rhetorical questions.
It's actually quite baffling that he is still doing it after all these years
I grew bored of his antics a long time ago

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:21pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:07pm:
That's lee's MO
He never likes to take a position on anything.......except to discredit, obfuscate, confuse and ask rhetorical questions.
It's actually quite baffling that he is still doing it after all these years
I grew bored of his antics a long time ago



But Karnal says I have taken those positions. Both of you can't be right. ;D ;D ;D

And you never got back to me of where something I said about climate was wrong.

Just another drive-by shooting from the lip from Barney. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:22pm
*

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:22pm
*

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:26pm

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:22pm:
*


Possibly your first post that I didn't disagree with ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:28pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
Possibly your first post that I didn't disagree with ?



Quite possibly. You never seem to agree to anything substantive. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:56pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:07pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:29pm:
To date, over the last few years, Lee has argued 4 things. 

1. It's getting cooler.

2. It's getting warmer.

3. There's no proof it's getting warmer.

4. And there's no proof humans are making it get warmer or cooler.

In other words, Lee's saying nothing - or anything - is happening. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Just don't think about it.

Carry on.


That's lee's MO
He never likes to take a position on anything.......except to discredit, obfuscate, confuse and ask rhetorical questions.
It's actually quite baffling that he is still doing it after all these years
I grew bored of his antics a long time ago


Ah. FD must have got it off Lee then.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 2:20pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:56pm:
Ah. FD must have got it off Lee then.


Still no proof then? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:41pm

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:28pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
Possibly your first post that I didn't disagree with ?



Quite possibly. You never seem to agree to anything substantive. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


I will be able to comment on this if you ever get around to posting anything substantive.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:44pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:41pm:
I will be able to comment on this if you ever get around to posting anything substantive.



Ah, You have cognitive dissonance. Now I understand. Never mind petal.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 2:20pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:56pm:
Ah. FD must have got it off Lee then.


Still no proof then? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Of your posts?

Sure, Lee. Here's you asking me for proof.

In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.

Happy?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:58pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:41pm:

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:28pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
Possibly your first post that I didn't disagree with ?



Quite possibly. You never seem to agree to anything substantive. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


I will be able to comment on this if you ever get around to posting anything substantive.


Ask Lee for evidence, Dnarever.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.



No petal I want quotes. Not unsubstantiated drivel.

That isn't too hard for you is it?

You do know how to quote?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:54pm

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.



No petal I want quotes. Not unsubstantiated drivel.

That isn't too hard for you is it?

You do know how to quote?


Why do you want quotes?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:48am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:54pm:

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.



No petal I want quotes. Not unsubstantiated drivel.

That isn't too hard for you is it?

You do know how to quote?


Why do you want quotes?


To add to the things to ignore list ?

Or

Poor memory ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:55am

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.



No petal I want quotes. Not unsubstantiated drivel.

That isn't too hard for you is it?

You do know how to quote?


Lee could be right on this, I agree that Lee makes posts saying all these things and more but if you read his posts carefully you find that he virtually never actually agrees with anything that he posts. He is virtually a non entity.

The other comment was close to the mark: He never likes to take a position on anything.......except to discredit, obfuscate, confuse and ask rhetorical questions.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 21st, 2019 at 9:54am

lee wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:33pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:11pm:
Just check the latest IPCC report. It has everything you need to know.



Oh you mean the new IPCC special report that used RCP 8.5 as its basis? The RCP 8.5 that even climate scientists say isn't feasible? That report? Those projections?

Or do you mean where they actually stated what has happened?

About extreme weather -

"Floods

"There was low confidence due to limited evidence, however, that anthropogenic climate change has affected the frequency and magnitude of floods. WGII AR5 also concluded that there is no evidence that surface water and groundwater drought
frequency has changed over the last few decades, although impacts of drought have increased mostly owing to increased water demand (Jiménez Cisneros et al., 2014)"

Drought

"The IPCC AR5 assessed that there was low confidence in the sign of drought trends since 1950 at the global scale, but that there was high confidence in observed trends in some regions of the world, including drought increases in the Mediterranean and West Africa and drought decreases in central North America and northwest Australia (Hartmann et al., 2013; Stocker et al., 2013). AR5 assessed that there was low confidence in the attribution of global changes in droughts and did not provide assessments for the attribution of regional changes in droughts (Bindoff et al., 2013a).

The recent literature does not suggest that the SREX and AR5 assessment of drought trends should be revised, except in the Mediterranean region. "

Cyclones

"Numerous studies leading up to and after AR5 have reported a decreasing trend in the global number of tropical cyclones and/or the globally accumulated cyclonic energy (Emanuel, 2005; Elsner et al., 2008; Knutson et al., 2010; Holland and Bruyère, 2014; Klotzbach and Landsea, 2015; Walsh et al., 2016). A theoretical physical basis for such a decrease to occur under global warming was recently provided by Kang and Elsner (2015). However, using a relatively short (20 year) and relatively homogeneous remotely sensed record, Klotzbach (2006) reported no significant trends in global cyclonic activity, consistent with more recent findings of Holland and Bruyère (2014). Such contradictions, in combination with the fact that the almost fourdecade-long period of remotely sensed observations remains relatively short to distinguish anthropogenically induced trends from decadal and multi-decadal variability, implies that there is only low confidencev regarding changes in global tropical cyclone numbers under global warming over the last four decades."

Precipitation

"Observed global changes in the water cycle, including precipitation, are more uncertain than observed changes in temperature (Hartmann et al., 2013; Stocker et al., 2013). There is high confidence that mean precipitation over the mid-latitude land areas of the Northern Hemisphere has increased since 1951 (Hartmann et al., 2013). For other latitudinal zones, area-averaged long-term positive or negative trends have low confidence because of poor data quality, incomplete data or disagreement amongst available estimates (Hartmann et al., 2013). There is, in particular, low confidence regarding observed trends in precipitation in monsoon regions, according to the SREX report (Seneviratne et al., 2012) and AR5 (Hartmann et al., 2013), as well as more recent publications (Singh et al., 2014; Taylor et al., 2017; Bichet and Diedhiou, 2018; see Supplementary Material 3.SM.2)."

https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/chapter/chapter-3/

SR5 also had projections for wildfires but no reference for observations. So I found a scientific paper on wildfires from 2017.

QUOTE
Fire is an essential Earth system process that alters ecosystem and atmospheric composition. Here we assessed long-term fire trends using multiple satellite data sets. We found that global burned area declined by 24.3 ± 8.8% over the past 18 years. The estimated decrease in burned area remained robust after adjusting for precipitation variability and was largest in savannas. Agricultural expansion and intensification were primary drivers of declining fire activity. Fewer and smaller fires reduced aerosol concentrations, modified vegetation structure, and increased the magnitude of the terrestrial carbon sink. Fire models were unable to reproduce the pattern and magnitude of observed declines, suggesting that they may overestimate fire emissions in future projections. Using economic and demographic variables, we developed a conceptual model for predicting fire in human-dominated landscapes.


http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6345/1356

But tell us what you think the report says if you think it says something different.


They also cannot tell you whether it will be raining at your house one year from today. But there is plenty they can tell you. None of it good.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 11:45am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:54pm:
Why do you want quotes?



Because I want to see the context in which they were made.

That is seasonable isn't it?

Eg Did I say Al Gore should not use planes because he is notionally against fossil fuel use? Because he's rich and I'm not? Because he already has a large  "carbon" (CO2) footprint?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 11:46am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:55am:

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.



No petal I want quotes. Not unsubstantiated drivel.

That isn't too hard for you is it?

You do know how to quote?


Lee could be right on this, I agree that Lee makes posts saying all these things and more but if you read his posts carefully you find that he virtually never actually agrees with anything that he posts. He is virtually a non entity.

The other comment was close to the mark: He never likes to take a position on anything.......except to discredit, obfuscate, confuse and ask rhetorical questions.



perhaps you too can quote me? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 11:59am

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 9:54am:
They also cannot tell you whether it will be raining at your house one year from today.



That's true. Do you think they should have something after 40 years of climate science?

Did you know cyclones/hurricanes have actually fallen?

We have a good history of cyclones hurricanes going back 100 years. Satellite observed cyclones/hurricanes since 1980.





freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 9:54am:
But there is plenty they can tell you.


You mean like "The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible" ?

- IPCC TAR WG1, Working Group I: The Scientific Basis

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:05pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 11:45am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:54pm:
Why do you want quotes?



Because I want to see the context in which they were made.

That is seasonable isn't it?

Eg Did I say Al Gore should not use planes because he is notionally against fossil fuel use? Because he's rich and I'm not? Because he already has a large  "carbon" (CO2) footprint?


I'm not sure, Lee. Maybe you're a lobbyist for the horse and cart industry.

You won't say, eh?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:07pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:48am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:54pm:

lee wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.



No petal I want quotes. Not unsubstantiated drivel.

That isn't too hard for you is it?

You do know how to quote?


Why do you want quotes?


To add to the things to ignore list ?

Or

Poor memory ?


Oh, Lee doesn't have a poor memory, Dnarever. He remembers every argument that's been put into his mouth by the News Ltd-led cabul.

Look at the one he's just cunningly remembered.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:10pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:05pm:
I'm not sure, Lee.



Ah well that says it all. You don't know the context of the remarks. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:05pm:
Maybe you're a lobbyist for the horse and cart industry.

You won't say, eh?


Yes, I can. I am definitely not an advocate for the horse and cart industry.

BRW - Did you know back at the turn of the 20th century New York thought they were going to be inundated with horse manure from carts and hansom cabs? It never happened - technology happened. More energy density in fossil fuels. And fossil fuels have more energy density than wind and solar.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:13pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:07pm:
Oh, Lee doesn't have a poor memory, Dnarever. He remembers every argument that's been put into his mouth by the News Ltd-led cabul (sic).



Sorry limited outlets for News Ltd in WA. Please try again. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:07pm:
Look at the one he's just cunningly remembered.


Which one was that? Al Gore? I gave 3 possible answers. I don't know which one you think I was correct in remembering. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:36pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:13pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:07pm:
Oh, Lee doesn't have a poor memory, Dnarever. He remembers every argument that's been put into his mouth by the News Ltd-led cabul (sic).



Sorry limited outlets for News Ltd in WA. Please try again. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:07pm:
Look at the one he's just cunningly remembered.


Which one was that? Al Gore? I gave 3 possible answers. I don't know which one you think I was correct in remembering. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Can you provide a quote?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:38pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:36pm:
Can you provide a quote?



That was your homework petal, and I ain't doing it for you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 1:55pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:38pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:36pm:
Can you provide a quote?



That was your homework petal, and I ain't doing it for you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Oh, but Lee, you already have, dear.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 2:05pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:13pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:07pm:
Oh, Lee doesn't have a poor memory, Dnarever. He remembers every argument that's been put into his mouth by the News Ltd-led cabul (sic).



Sorry limited outlets for News Ltd in WA. Please try again. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Oh, that's terrible! You don't have good internet in WA?

You really should complain to your local MP. You tell them you want access to Andrew Bolt, Miranda Divine and all their regional syndications and copycats immediately.

And don't take no for an answer, dear. It'll change your life. You'll be paraphrasing Fox News hosts and pro-carbon think tanks and all the big fossil fuel campaigns in no time, believe me.

Well, more than you do now, anyway.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:05pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 2:05pm:
Oh, that's terrible! You don't have good internet in WA?


Wow. How about that he's heard of the internet. Hasn't heard about subscriptions to News though. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 2:05pm:
You'll be paraphrasing Fox News hosts and pro-carbon think tanks and all the big fossil fuel campaigns in no time, believe me.


So now I am not part of the News limited stream? You really should make up your mind; should you have one of your own.

So tell me all about these posts you said I made; still no quotes.

I guess it was just too hard for you. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:06pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 1:55pm:
Oh, but Lee, you already have, dear.


Oh you mean the one where you couldn't identify which quote you were talking about?

Too bloody funny. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:29pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:05pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 2:05pm:
Oh, that's terrible! You don't have good internet in WA?


Wow. How about that he's heard of the internet. Hasn't heard about subscriptions to News though. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 2:05pm:
You'll be paraphrasing Fox News hosts and pro-carbon think tanks and all the big fossil fuel campaigns in no time, believe me.


So now I am not part of the News limited stream?


That's hard to say, Lee. Maybe someone could quote your posts for you to let you know.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:45pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:06pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 1:55pm:
Oh, but Lee, you already have, dear.


Oh you mean the one where you couldn't identify which quote you were talking about?


No, the one where you asked me to tell you what you said about Al Gore, remember?

There's only 2 options, you know.

Option 1: Whenever Al or David Suzuki or some movie star says something about global warming, you're meant to accuse them of catching planes.

This, as you just said, is meant to make them look hypocritical because people who acknowledge global warming aren't supposed to do anything that might make CO2.

I've heard they have air-conditioning. Oh, the hypocrites! They even got al Gore for having a party where the caterer served a supposedly endangered fish. Nothing to do with global warming, but you get the idea.

Option 2: Whenever it gets really cold, you say, you see? Global warming really isn't happening at all.

You can do this when it rains or there's no bushfires or whatever you like. Normal weather today - you see? What numpties these alarmists all are.

And that's it. You can repeat these as many times as you like, just like the News Ltd columnists and Fox News hosts do. Any time of the year you want - hypocrites! You see? Numpties.

The rest of the time you can just do what you're doing here - ask lots of distracting questions, move the discussion into other areas, make it personal if need be, just undermine the debate at all costs.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:08pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:29pm:
That's hard to say, Lee. Maybe someone could quote your posts for you to let you know.



But not you because you don't know. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:11pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:45pm:
No, the one where you asked me to tell you what you said about Al Gore, remember?



Yes Petal. I gave you three options and you couldn't even trim it to two. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:45pm:
There's only 2 options, you know.


Yes You either have proof or you don't. So far the money is on "you don't". ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:13pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:45pm:
Option 1: Whenever Al or David Suzuki or some movie star says something about global warming, you're meant to accuse them of catching planes.

This, as you just said, is meant to make them look hypocritical because people who acknowledge global warming aren't supposed to do anything that might make CO2.

I've heard they have air-conditioning. Oh, the hypocrites! They even got al Gore for having a party where the caterer served a supposedly endangered fish. Nothing to do with global warming, but you get the idea.

Option 2: Whenever it gets really cold, you say, you see? Global warming really isn't happening at all.

You can do this when it rains or there's no bushfires or whatever you like. Normal weather today - you see? What numpties these alarmists all are.

And that's it. You can repeat these as many times as you like, just like the News Ltd columnists and Fox News hosts do. Any time of the year you want - hypocrites! You see? Numpties.

The rest of the time you can just do what you're doing here - ask lots of distracting questions, move the discussion into other areas, make it personal if need be, just undermine the debate at all costs.


Looks like there was an edit. And still you have offered no proof; mere assertions.

Definitely a troll in the making. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:25pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:08pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 4:29pm:
That's hard to say, Lee. Maybe someone could quote your posts for you to let you know.



But not you because you don't know. ;D ;D ;D ;D


So true, Lee. I have no idea where all your posts are.

If you thought this was important, you'd go out and look.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:27pm
What should I be offering proof of, Lee? Your existence?

You think therefore you are, dear.

There you go.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:44pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:25pm:
So true, Lee. I have no idea where all your posts are.


Yes. We have known for some time you have no idea.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:25pm:
If you thought this was important, you'd go out and look.


But you are the one making the assertions of what I said. Your claims - you prove it. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:47pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:27pm:
What should I be offering proof of, Lee?


oh dear, Now you have forgotten what you posted. poor petal.

So we have established you have no idea, don't know how to search posts and don't know how to append them to a post of your own.

What a numpty. Bye.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 6:22pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:44pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:25pm:
So true, Lee. I have no idea where all your posts are.


Yes. We have known for some time you have no idea.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 5:25pm:
If you thought this was important, you'd go out and look.


But you are the one making the assertions of what I said. Your claims - you prove it. ;)


But you know you said it. You agree with yourself.

Now if you want proof that you self-indulgently derail threads on climate change, here's your proof.

Please don't ask me when we're having the same discussion next year, dear, just agree with yourself.

Do you want to state anything else you believe, or is that all?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:01pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 11:59am:

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 9:54am:
They also cannot tell you whether it will be raining at your house one year from today.



That's true. Do you think they should have something after 40 years of climate science?

Did you know cyclones/hurricanes have actually fallen?

We have a good history of cyclones hurricanes going back 100 years. Satellite observed cyclones/hurricanes since 1980.





freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 9:54am:
But there is plenty they can tell you.


You mean like "The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible" ?

- IPCC TAR WG1, Working Group I: The Scientific Basis


Oh look, a climate skeptic posting a graph that only goes back to 1980. Did they not know what a hurricane was before then?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:08pm
No, I think Lee's point is they had hurricanes before 1980 too, FD.

That's option 3. If something really bad happens and everybody says it's caused by global warming, you say, yes but they had weather in the old days too, you know.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:53pm

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:01pm:
Oh look, a climate skeptic posting a graph that only goes back to 1980


Oh you wanted more than the satellite era? ;D ;D ;D ;D

We don't have good quality data for the Southern Hemisphere, BoM goes back to 1971, but we do for the USA -



Of course feel free to post rebuttal, graphs etc. I know the US is not global, but it should be a fair proxy. ;)

The red line shows the linear trend, exhibiting a decrease from about 2 to 1.5 landfalls per year since 1900. Source: NOAA

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:06pm
Thanks Lee. It shows greater variability in recent times, which is what most scientists were predicting.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:08pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:53pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:01pm:
Oh look, a climate skeptic posting a graph that only goes back to 1980


Oh you wanted more than the satellite era? ;D ;D ;D ;D

We don't have good quality data for the Southern Hemisphere, BoM goes back to 1971, but we do for the USA -



Of course feel free to post rebuttal, graphs etc. I know the US is not global, but it should be a fair proxy. ;)

The red line shows the linear trend, exhibiting a decrease from about 2 to 1.5 landfalls per year since 1900. Source: NOAA


Is there a reason that you posted this information ? How does it relate to a Carbon tax ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:27pm

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:06pm:
Thanks Lee. It shows greater variability in recent times, which is what most scientists were predicting.



Yes. Weather has always been variable. So what is new? ;)

"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

IPCC TAR WG1, Working Group I: The Scientific Basis

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:30pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:08pm:
Is there a reason that you posted this information ?


Yes because doubt was put on earlier hurricane numbers. Don't let it bother you, it is above your comprehension level.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:08pm:
How does it relate to a Carbon tax ?



Because CO2 is supposed to be the harbinger of all extreme weather and needs a tax to mitigate it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 10:08pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:08pm:

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:53pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:01pm:
Oh look, a climate skeptic posting a graph that only goes back to 1980


Oh you wanted more than the satellite era? ;D ;D ;D ;D

We don't have good quality data for the Southern Hemisphere, BoM goes back to 1971, but we do for the USA -



Of course feel free to post rebuttal, graphs etc. I know the US is not global, but it should be a fair proxy. ;)

The red line shows the linear trend, exhibiting a decrease from about 2 to 1.5 landfalls per year since 1900. Source: NOAA


Is there a reason that you posted this information ? How does it relate to a Carbon tax ?


Ah.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 21st, 2019 at 10:09pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:27pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:06pm:
Thanks Lee. It shows greater variability in recent times, which is what most scientists were predicting.



Yes. Weather has always been variable. So what is new? ;)


You see? Option 3.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:08am
Are you a banker FD......?


Quote:
International carbon markets will cover billions of consumers this decade. Ask the bankers at your table whether they want Australia to clip that ticket. We’re going to help them get their share.....Julia Gillard......Speech at the National Press Gallery


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/is-the-carbon-tax-great-just-ask-the-banker-at-your-table/news-story/64a482a83b718d0b02105d75729c3971

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:22am

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:30pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:08pm:
Is there a reason that you posted this information ?


Yes because doubt was put on earlier hurricane numbers. Don't let it bother you, it is above your comprehension level.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:08pm:
How does it relate to a Carbon tax ?



Because CO2 is supposed to be the harbinger of all extreme weather and needs a tax to mitigate it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Yes because doubt was put on earlier hurricane numbers.


My q meant to include the relevance of posting earlier hurricane numbers as well ?


Quote:
Because CO2 is supposed to be the harbinger of all extreme weather and needs a tax to mitigate it.


You argument is based solidly on an untrue assertion. In fact there are theories that show how warming can be associated with more moderate weather conditions like less hail and less Hurricanes in some areas.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:28am

Ajax wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:08am:
Are you a banker FD......?


Quote:
International carbon markets will cover billions of consumers this decade. Ask the bankers at your table whether they want Australia to clip that ticket. We’re going to help them get their share.....Julia Gillard......Speech at the National Press Gallery


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/is-the-carbon-tax-great-just-ask-the-banker-at-your-table/news-story/64a482a83b718d0b02105d75729c3971


Yes the major point in this topic is that the system we had - A fixed price on Carbon was the best option, now we are left scrambling for flawed alternatives.

This is Abbott and the denier Government's Legacy to us all. 

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:39am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 10:08pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:08pm:

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:53pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 7:01pm:
Oh look, a climate skeptic posting a graph that only goes back to 1980


Oh you wanted more than the satellite era? ;D ;D ;D ;D

We don't have good quality data for the Southern Hemisphere, BoM goes back to 1971, but we do for the USA -



Of course feel free to post rebuttal, graphs etc. I know the US is not global, but it should be a fair proxy. ;)

The red line shows the linear trend, exhibiting a decrease from about 2 to 1.5 landfalls per year since 1900. Source: NOAA


Is there a reason that you posted this information ? How does it relate to a Carbon tax ?


Ah.


It's just meaningless mud in the water.

It is not on the topic of Carbon Tax. It isn't about Global warming, it does not either support or undermine Global warming in any obvious way.

While it is true it does not really mean anything unless you want to argue that it does actually support climate change. Which it does in the case of one theory but I suspect that is not Lee's intention.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:48am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:28am:

Ajax wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:08am:
Are you a banker FD......?


Quote:
International carbon markets will cover billions of consumers this decade. Ask the bankers at your table whether they want Australia to clip that ticket. We’re going to help them get their share.....Julia Gillard......Speech at the National Press Gallery


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/is-the-carbon-tax-great-just-ask-the-banker-at-your-table/news-story/64a482a83b718d0b02105d75729c3971


Yes the major point in this topic is that the system we had - A fixed price on Carbon was the best option, now we are left scrambling for flawed alternatives.

This is Abbott and the denier Government's Legacy to us all. 


But I thought this was about saving the planet from man's emissions of atmospheric CO2 in as quick a time as possible before its too late......???

I didn't think it involved lining bankers pockets....???

You know once we (the world) start paying, it will be ok to send up more manmade CO2 into the atmosphere.

Even if we go beyond the point of no return.

As long as you pay there is no danger..... :) ;) :D



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:01am

Ajax wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:28am:

Ajax wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:08am:
Are you a banker FD......?


Quote:
International carbon markets will cover billions of consumers this decade. Ask the bankers at your table whether they want Australia to clip that ticket. We’re going to help them get their share.....Julia Gillard......Speech at the National Press Gallery


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/is-the-carbon-tax-great-just-ask-the-banker-at-your-table/news-story/64a482a83b718d0b02105d75729c3971


Yes the major point in this topic is that the system we had - A fixed price on Carbon was the best option, now we are left scrambling for flawed alternatives.

This is Abbott and the denier Government's Legacy to us all. 


But I thought this was about saving the planet from man's emissions of atmospheric CO2 in as quick a time as possible before its too late......???

I didn't think it involved lining bankers pockets....???

You know once we (the world) start paying, it will be ok to send up more manmade CO2 into the atmosphere.

Even if we go beyond the point of no return.

As long as you pay there is no danger..... :) ;) :D



Quote:
But I thought this was about saving the planet from man's emissions of atmospheric CO2 in as quick a time as possible before its too late......???



We had a system in place 10 years ago that did that. The options left on the table are not impressive and in many cases seriously flawed - you can thank Tony Mal and So low for this position.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:23am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:01am:

Ajax wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:28am:

Ajax wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:08am:
Are you a banker FD......?


Quote:
International carbon markets will cover billions of consumers this decade. Ask the bankers at your table whether they want Australia to clip that ticket. We’re going to help them get their share.....Julia Gillard......Speech at the National Press Gallery


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/is-the-carbon-tax-great-just-ask-the-banker-at-your-table/news-story/64a482a83b718d0b02105d75729c3971


Yes the major point in this topic is that the system we had - A fixed price on Carbon was the best option, now we are left scrambling for flawed alternatives.

This is Abbott and the denier Government's Legacy to us all. 


But I thought this was about saving the planet from man's emissions of atmospheric CO2 in as quick a time as possible before its too late......???

I didn't think it involved lining bankers pockets....???

You know once we (the world) start paying, it will be ok to send up more manmade CO2 into the atmosphere.

Even if we go beyond the point of no return.

As long as you pay there is no danger..... :) ;) :D


[quote]But I thought this was about saving the planet from man's emissions of atmospheric CO2 in as quick a time as possible before its too late......???



We had a system in place 10 years ago that did that. The options left on the table are not impressive and in many cases seriously flawed - you can thank Tony Mal and So low for this position.
[/quote]

You do realise that bankers that's the elite, the oligarchy the 1% who own the banks not the tellers you talk to.

You do realise that they have written the laws on carbon derivatives trading and have spent billions of dollars promoting carbon pricing all around the world.

Please answer two questions for me.

1. Why are bankers getting involved and spending billions on promoting carbon trading, writing the laws and generally gearing up to sell carbon derivatives to all the world.....?

2. Why does every country have to contribute 10% of its carbon tax to the United Nations UNFCC.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1493592560

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1438156953

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1432899349

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376975555



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 11:43am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 10:09pm:

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:27pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:06pm:
Thanks Lee. It shows greater variability in recent times, which is what most scientists were predicting.



Yes. Weather has always been variable. So what is new? ;)


You see? Option 3.


So you don't understand. I will try and make it even easier for you.

The claim - It shows greater variability in recent times, which is what most scientists were predicting.

What I wrote - "The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

So here we have cyclones/hurricanes that are definitely "chaotic" because they show great variability and don't occur in a linear fashion, there is no tail of one to the head of another.

So in essence they have predicted a variable, non-linear event to be variable and non-linear.

Wow. That must seem to some to be an amazing prediction. Tomorrow's news - Water is wet? ( except in the case of dessicated water.) ;)

But really I thought they said they would be more common and more severe not that they would be subject to "more variability".

From the Union of Concerned Scientists, you know Will Steffen, Michael E Mann etc -

"The number and strength of storms is highly variable from year to year, which makes it challenging to detect trends in the frequency or intensity of hurricanes over time.

The advent of satellite technology in the 1970s made it possible to more consistently track hurricanes. Storm counts and strength measurements from before to the 1970s are less consistent, further complicating the study of long-term trends."

https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/impacts/hurricanes-and-climate-change.html

But please feel free to show your knowledge and understanding by referring me to a scientist who merely said they would be "more variable".

Here is you big chance - don't fluff it. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 11:46am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:22am:
You argument is based solidly on an untrue assertion. In fact there are theories that show how warming can be associated with more moderate weather conditions like less hail and less Hurricanes in some areas.



But that is NOT a part of the CO2 mantra.

And then of course the CO2 induced Polar Vortex. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 1:24pm

lee wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:27pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:06pm:
Thanks Lee. It shows greater variability in recent times, which is what most scientists were predicting.



Yes. Weather has always been variable. So what is new? ;)

"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

IPCC TAR WG1, Working Group I: The Scientific Basis


I highlighted the bit that was new for you.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 1:40pm

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:06pm:
Thanks Lee. It shows greater variability in recent times, which is what most scientists were predicting.


You mean these same folks that told us through the 1970's that we would be in glacial state by 2000.

Then they changed their minds to global warming and still got it wrong bwhhaahaaahaa.

You trust in these FOOLS............!!!

AND what to pay through the nose for it.....!!!

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 2:15pm

freediver wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 1:24pm:
I highlighted the bit that was new for you.


No petal. Another one of your obvious distortions as you try to gain ground. Poor you. :'(

But perhaps you can quote where they said that there would be greater variability? Or not.

Another fact free zone.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 2:56pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 1:40pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 21st, 2019 at 8:06pm:
Thanks Lee. It shows greater variability in recent times, which is what most scientists were predicting.


You mean these same folks that told us through the 1970's that we would be in glacial state by 2000.

Then they changed their minds to global warming and still got it wrong bwhhaahaaahaa.

You trust in these FOOLS............!!!

AND what to pay through the nose for it.....!!!


I mean what I said in the highlighted bit. Once again you claimed to be refuting something by posting the evidence that supports it. Perhaps if you took 30 seconds to understand what you think you disagree with first you wouldn't keep doing this.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 3:09pm

freediver wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 2:56pm:
Once again you claimed to be refuting something by posting the evidence that supports it.



Please quote this "science" that says there will be increased variability. It is your claim. Back it up with references. So far all we have is an assertion.

You do understand the difference between the two? ::)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:56pm

lee wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 11:46am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:22am:
You argument is based solidly on an untrue assertion. In fact there are theories that show how warming can be associated with more moderate weather conditions like less hail and less Hurricanes in some areas.



But that is NOT a part of the CO2 mantra.

And then of course the CO2 induced Polar Vortex. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Just keep on throwing irrelevance in meant to obfuscate.

It looks like the Polar vortex may be warming induced or influenced but the result isn't in yet. Don't think anyone has said that the polar vortex is directly CO2 induced (except for you), some say that it may be caused by the warming and reduced ice.

How do you fit polar vortex into this topic ? Are you making an argument that it proves global warming, that it disproves global warming or that it is related to a need for a carbon penalty ?

You have stated an effect but as per usual do not seem to have a point or an opinion, just shovelling more mud.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:58pm

lee wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 3:09pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 2:56pm:
Once again you claimed to be refuting something by posting the evidence that supports it.



Please quote this "science" that says there will be increased variability. It is your claim. Back it up with references. So far all we have is an assertion.

You do understand the difference between the two? ::)


Is there really a need to backup statements which have been common knowledge for 2 decades ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:01pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:56pm:
It looks like the Polar vortex may be warming induced or influenced but the result isn't in yet. Don't think anyone has said that the polar vortex is directly CO2 induced (except for you), some say that it may be caused by the warming and reduced ice.



"When the polar vortex pieces wander, warmth invades the Arctic, Alaska, Greenland and Canada, Masters said. While the Midwest chills, Australia has been broiling to record-breaking heat. The world as a whole on Monday was 0.7 degrees (0.4 degrees Celsius) warmer than the 1979-2000 average, according to the University of Maine's Climate Reanalyzer.

Some scientists—but by no means most—see a connection between human-caused climate change and difference in atmospheric pressure that causes slower moving waves in the air.

"It's a complicated story that involves a hefty dose of chaos and an interplay among multiple influences, so extracting a clear signal of the Arctic's role is challenging," said Jennifer Francis, a climate scientist at the Woods Hole Research Center. Several recent papers have made the case for the connection, she noted.

"This symptom of global warming is counterintuitive for those in the cross-hairs of these extreme cold spells," Francis said in an email. "But these events provide an excellent opportunity to help the public understand some of the 'interesting' ways that climate change will unfold." "

https://phys.org/news/2019-01-science-polar-vortex-outbreaks.html

So some do some don't. Definitely NOT a case of no one apart from me has done so. ;)


Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:56pm:
You have stated an effect but as per usual do not seem to have a point or an opinion, just shovelling more mud.


I am merely quoting the "science". ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:03pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:58pm:
Is there really a need to backup statements which have been common knowledge for 2 decades ?



If it such common knowledge you shouldn't have any trouble proving it. Oh that's right - you don't do proof. Assertions, for you, are enough. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:29pm

lee wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:01pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:56pm:
It looks like the Polar vortex may be warming induced or influenced but the result isn't in yet. Don't think anyone has said that the polar vortex is directly CO2 induced (except for you), some say that it may be caused by the warming and reduced ice.



"When the polar vortex pieces wander, warmth invades the Arctic, Alaska, Greenland and Canada, Masters said. While the Midwest chills, Australia has been broiling to record-breaking heat. The world as a whole on Monday was 0.7 degrees (0.4 degrees Celsius) warmer than the 1979-2000 average, according to the University of Maine's Climate Reanalyzer.

Some scientists—but by no means most—see a connection between human-caused climate change and difference in atmospheric pressure that causes slower moving waves in the air.

"It's a complicated story that involves a hefty dose of chaos and an interplay among multiple influences, so extracting a clear signal of the Arctic's role is challenging," said Jennifer Francis, a climate scientist at the Woods Hole Research Center. Several recent papers have made the case for the connection, she noted.

"This symptom of global warming is counterintuitive for those in the cross-hairs of these extreme cold spells," Francis said in an email. "But these events provide an excellent opportunity to help the public understand some of the 'interesting' ways that climate change will unfold." "

https://phys.org/news/2019-01-science-polar-vortex-outbreaks.html

So some do some don't. Definitely NOT a case of no one apart from me has done so. ;)


Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:56pm:
You have stated an effect but as per usual do not seem to have a point or an opinion, just shovelling more mud.


I am merely quoting the "science". ;)



Quote:
I am merely quoting the "science".


Keep telling yourself that Wardy.

The intention is clearly mud in the water.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:32pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:29pm:
Keep telling yourself that Wardy.



Oh Dear Poor Dna. Can't even read.

So it is not the "climate scientists" saying these things but me simply putting words in their mouths. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Are you mentally deficient?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:34pm

lee wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:58pm:
Is there really a need to backup statements which have been common knowledge for 2 decades ?



If it such common knowledge you shouldn't have any trouble proving it. Oh that's right - you don't do proof. Assertions, for you, are enough. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Interesting that you follow this topic but have no knowledge of the base facts.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:41pm

lee wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:29pm:
Keep telling yourself that Wardy.



Oh Dear Poor Dna. Can't even read.

So it is not the "climate scientists" saying these things but me simply putting words in their mouths. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Are you mentally deficient?


How are you putting it on me, I have no problem with the data or the facts presented just your misuse of them. I was clear it is your comprehension which is deficient.

You continually post information that may well be true but you have no position on it and it is seldom relevant to the argument that you are not making anyway. It is just noise - mud in the water it is clearly meant to obfuscate.

You mostly do not even believe the data you post as is evidenced by your denials of what Karnel said yesterday.



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:47pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:34pm:
nteresting that you follow this topic but have no knowledge of the base facts.


Ah, Another assumption.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

But still no reference showing where I am wrong. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:51pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:41pm:
How are you putting it on me, I have no problem with the data or the facts presented just your misuse of them.



But I posted the quotes of "climate scientists".  Just how is that a misuse? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:41pm:
You mostly do not even believe the data you post as is evidenced by your denials of what Karnel said yesterday.


You mean the stuff Karnal posed that he couldn't even quote exactly, with references, what I said.

Yes, I can see how someone of your ilk would find those arguments of his persuasive. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:16pm

lee wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:51pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:41pm:
How are you putting it on me, I have no problem with the data or the facts presented just your misuse of them.



But I posted the quotes of "climate scientists".  Just how is that a misuse? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 9:41pm:
You mostly do not even believe the data you post as is evidenced by your denials of what Karnel said yesterday.


You mean the stuff Karnal posed that he couldn't even quote exactly, with references, what I said.

Yes, I can see how someone of your ilk would find those arguments of his persuasive. ;)



Quote:
But I posted the quotes of "climate scientists".  Just how is that a misuse?


Randomly throwing in piles of data that you don't support, does not support you and that you have no comment on and which does not add to the topic or is relevant to it I would think fair to call a misuse. As ststed it is just throwing mud in the water.


Quote:
Yes, I can see how someone of your ilk would find those arguments of his persuasive.


I said nothing about her arguments being persuasive if they were or not.

I found it much more interesting that he thought that you had believed the things that you had posted even though it is all contradictory.

Like this vortex post - you just posted it for no reason, there is nothing to say you agree with it or even believe it.

If Karnal comes back as says something about your view on the Polar Vortex you would likely say prove that I have a view on it.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:29pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:16pm:
Randomly throwing in piles of data that you don't support, does not support you and that you have no comment on and which does not add to the topic or is relevant to it I would think fair to call a misuse.


No petal. Misuse is when something is said that is diametrically opposite to that stated. ;)


Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:16pm:
As ststed it is just throwing mud in the water.



We wouldn't want "climate scientists" muddying water would we? ;D ;D ;D ;D


Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:16pm:
I found it much more interesting that he thought that you had believed the things that you had posted even though it is all contradictory.


Marvellous. You found it interesting what he thought, not what was proven. ;)


Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:16pm:
Like this vortex post - you just posted it for no reason, there is nothing to say you agree with it or even believe it.


Exactly petal. Even the "climate scientists" can't agree. Why should I be supposed to be better than them? ;)


Dnarever wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:16pm:
If Karnal comes back as says something about your view on the Polar Vortex you would likely say prove that I have a view on it.


What view petal? You just said I haven't said whether I agreed or even believed it. ;)

Your only consistency is your inconsistency.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 8:02am
Here's Lee at his most persuasive, dears. He hasn't mentioned a "fact" in pages.

Option 4: sabotage.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 11:15am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 8:02am:
Here's Lee at his most persuasive, dears. He hasn't mentioned a "fact" in pages.



Can't read eh? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Where is the PROOF of your assertions?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:14pm

lee wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 3:09pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 2:56pm:
Once again you claimed to be refuting something by posting the evidence that supports it.



Please quote this "science" that says there will be increased variability. It is your claim. Back it up with references. So far all we have is an assertion.

You do understand the difference between the two? ::)


For someone who rants constantly about climate science you know very little about it. Just google "climate change increased variability" and you will get about 60 million results. For example:

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/5/eaar5809.full

Climate models predict increasing temperature variability in poor countries

Extreme events such as heat waves are among the most challenging aspects of climate change for societies. We show that climate models consistently project increases in temperature variability in tropical countries over the coming decades, with the Amazon as a particular hotspot of concern.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:22pm

freediver wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/5/eaar5809.full

Climate models predict increasing temperature variability in poor countries



Too funny. Climate models do so where are the climate scientists who said so before the climate models? It must be based on something mustn't it?

And from 2018? The last time I looked that was nowhere near "two decades" ago.




freediver wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
Extreme events such as heat waves are among the most challenging aspects of climate change for societies. We show that climate models consistently project increases in temperature variability in tropical countries over the coming decades, with the Amazon as a particular hotspot of concern.



Oh  somewhere in the future?

How far in to the future petal? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

You do know climate models are proof of nothing?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:32pm

lee wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 11:15am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 23rd, 2019 at 8:02am:
Here's Lee at his most persuasive, dears. He hasn't mentioned a "fact" in pages.



Can't read eh? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Where is the PROOF of your assertions?


Here you go:

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

You like a bit of a giggle, don't you, love?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:33pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:32pm:
You like a bit of a giggle, don't you, love?



And you are the gift that keeps on giving. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:34pm

freediver wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:14pm:

lee wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 3:09pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 22nd, 2019 at 2:56pm:
Once again you claimed to be refuting something by posting the evidence that supports it.



Please quote this "science" that says there will be increased variability. It is your claim. Back it up with references. So far all we have is an assertion.

You do understand the difference between the two? ::)


For someone who rants constantly about climate science you know very little about it. Just google "climate change increased variability" and you will get about 60 million results. For example:

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/5/eaar5809.full

Climate models predict increasing temperature variability in poor countries

Extreme events such as heat waves are among the most challenging aspects of climate change for societies. We show that climate models consistently project increases in temperature variability in tropical countries over the coming decades, with the Amazon as a particular hotspot of concern.


Better whack in a couple of these for good measure, son. He mightn't understand you otherwise:

;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:35pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:34pm:
Better whack in a couple of these for good measure, son. He mightn't understand you otherwise:



poor petal. feeling lost and alone

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:37pm

lee wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:33pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:32pm:
You like a bit of a giggle, don't you, love?



And you are the gift that keeps on giving. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Here you go, Lee:

:D ;D 8-)

Convincing, innit.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:38pm

lee wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:35pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:34pm:
Better whack in a couple of these for good measure, son. He mightn't understand you otherwise:



poor petal. feeling lost and alone


You've gone rather quiet. Here:

;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:39pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:37pm:
Convincing, innit.



The message you are providing is mixed. Perhaps you could add them to your list of quotes about me? ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 24th, 2019 at 8:15pm

lee wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:39pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:37pm:
Convincing, innit.



The message you are providing is mixed. Perhaps you could add them to your list of quotes about me? ;)


Oh, I did. It's the most succinct thing you've said.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 24th, 2019 at 8:42pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 8:15pm:
Oh, I did.



Lie? yep you have done that.

There were from memory 3 specific things that you alleged. And you couldn't even quote them. So sad.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:20am

lee wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:39pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:37pm:
Convincing, innit.



The message you are providing is mixed. Perhaps you could add them to your list of quotes about me? ;)


Better give us more quotes, love. I'm not buying it.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:59am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:20am:
Better give us more quotes, love. I'm not buying it.


Why when you can't even post the quotes you "remember"? ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Marla on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:00pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:59am:
Why when you can't even post the quotes you "remember"? ;D ;D ;D ;D


Why? When you can't even post maps that contain real science?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:06pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:59am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:20am:
Better give us more quotes, love. I'm not buying it.


Why when you can't even post the quotes you "remember"? ;D ;D ;D ;D


Now now, you quote me, dear. We can't have a reasonable scientific discussion without it.,

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Marla on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:17pm
Poor lee

https://youtu.be/hlV-C9-iO74

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:20pm

Marla wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:00pm:

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:59am:
Why when you can't even post the quotes you "remember"? ;D ;D ;D ;D


Why? When you can't even post maps that contain real science?


You mean maps from NASA, the OCO2 satllite those maps that are apparently a conspiracy by the Koch Bros? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I thought you said you went to uni? It wasn't to do critical thinking obviously. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:28pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
Now now, you quote me, dear. We can't have a reasonable scientific discussion without it.,



Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.



You mean those one's petal?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Marla on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:32pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:20pm:
You mean maps from NASA, the OCO2 satllite those maps that are apparently a conspiracy by the Koch Bros? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I thought you said you went to uni? It wasn't to do critical thinking obviously. ;)



I went to college not "uni" you "satllite" Koch-funded hippie. 

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:42pm

Marla wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:32pm:
I went to college not "uni" you "satllite" Koch-funded hippie.



Oh dear. Sorry to have upgraded you But that explains your lack of critical thinking skills.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:51pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:28pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
Now now, you quote me, dear. We can't have a reasonable scientific discussion without it.,



Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 20th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
In another post you say climate change is no big deal. In another you say it's getting colder. In another you say it's getting warmer. In another you say Al Gore should stop catching planes, and on and on it goes.



You mean those one's petal?


Very good. Now you prove that. Off you go.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:56pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:42pm:

Marla wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:32pm:
I went to college not "uni" you "satllite" Koch-funded hippie.



Oh dear. Sorry to have upgraded you But that explains your lack of critical thinking skills.


For over a decade I refused to employ Uni students. They seemed to lack the ability to think at all but wanted to run the show mostly refusing to listen. They always knew a better way of doing everything the problem was their improvements seldom worked. Most kids off the street with a little aptitude were a lot more useful. Things have changed since I was at Uni.

My guess is that it is likely that you were a uni graduate at about this time.



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:58pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:51pm:
Very good. Now you prove that. Off you go.



I have proved it petal; it is your post. Now all you have to do is prove your assertions the same way. That is by quoting my posts.  ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:59pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:56pm:
My guess is that it is likely that you were a uni graduate at about this time.


Your guess is wide of the mark. As usual. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 25th, 2019 at 1:41pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:58pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 12:51pm:
Very good. Now you prove that. Off you go.



I have proved it petal; it is your post. Now all you have to do is prove your assertions the same way. That is by quoting my posts.  ;)


Disagree with it, do you?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 2:04pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 1:41pm:
Disagree with it, do you?



Until you provide the quotes, in context, I can't agree or disagree.

But that is something you have consistently failed to do. Why is that? Does the context refute your assertions?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:41pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 2:04pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 1:41pm:
Disagree with it, do you?



Until you provide the quotes, in context, I can't agree or disagree.

But that is something you have consistently failed to do. Why is that? Does the context refute your assertions?


You're asking moi?

But let's discuss your theories. How does a rainy day disprove global warming? How about a cold snap? Or how about the fact that the world hasn't ended?

Let's get down to brass tacks, dear. You show us once and for all why global warming's a hoax.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:45pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:41pm:
You show us once and for all why global warming's a hoax.


Another strawman argument. Please quote where I have said global warming is a hoax?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:56pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:45pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:41pm:
You show us once and for all why global warming's a hoax.


Another strawman argument. Please quote where I have said global warming is a hoax?


So it's not a hoax?

What is it then?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Frank on Apr 25th, 2019 at 8:16pm
Man-made climate change is a hoax.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 25th, 2019 at 9:12pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:56pm:
So it's not a hoax?

What is it then?


With the little knowledge we have we have no idea of man's contribution.

I will even let you quote me. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 25th, 2019 at 10:34pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:56pm:

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:45pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:41pm:
You show us once and for all why global warming's a hoax.


Another strawman argument. Please quote where I have said global warming is a hoax?


So it's not a hoax?

What is it then?


So it's not a hoax?

he didn't say that either.

4,000 posts on 370 topics about Global warming and he didn't actually say much of anything.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:37pm

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 9:12pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:56pm:
So it's not a hoax?

What is it then?


With the little knowledge we have we have no idea of man's contribution.

I will even let you quote me. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


So are you saying you don't know, dear?

I'm curious. You sound most vehement to me.

Do you disagree with the old boy above?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:38pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 10:34pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:56pm:

lee wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:45pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 7:41pm:
You show us once and for all why global warming's a hoax.


Another strawman argument. Please quote where I have said global warming is a hoax?


So it's not a hoax?

What is it then?


So it's not a hoax?

he didn't say that either.

4,000 posts on 370 topics about Global warming and he didn't actually say much of anything.


Lee's trying. He's giving it a go.

What sound does a jellyfish make?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Ajax on Apr 26th, 2019 at 9:16am

Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 8:16pm:
Man-made climate change is a hoax.


X2....................... 8-)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 26th, 2019 at 11:02am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:37pm:
So are you saying you don't know, dear?



Yes petal And nobody else does either. ;)

Gavin Schmidt, Director of GISS, says we can estimate the earth's temperature to within */-0.5C. Given the large parts of the globe where there are no measurements, I am not inclined to believe that. ut if you look at the NOAA temperatures hey say they know to within one hundredths of a degree.

And that is two "eminent" scientific bodies. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:37pm:
I'm curious. You sound most vehement to me.



See the above.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:37pm:
Do you disagree with the old boy above?



You do understand they are two entirely different questions? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Although you seem to think global warming = AGW = Climate Change = Man made Climate Change.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 26th, 2019 at 11:03am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:38pm:
Lee's trying. He's giving it a go.

What sound does a jellyfish make?


Poor karney. Doesn't even know which way is up. Bit he can FEEL the difference in the warming. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:45pm

Ajax wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 9:16am:

Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 8:16pm:
Man-made climate change is a hoax.


X2....................... 8-)


Seems to be the consensus here, Lee. Still not calling it a hoax?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:53pm

lee wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 11:02am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:37pm:
So are you saying you don't know, dear?



Yes petal And nobody else does either. ;)

Gavin Schmidt, Director of GISS, says we can estimate the earth's temperature to within */-0.5C. Given the large parts of the globe where there are no measurements, I am not inclined to believe that. ut if you look at the NOAA temperatures hey say they know to within one hundredths of a degree.

And that is two "eminent" scientific bodies. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:37pm:
I'm curious. You sound most vehement to me.



See the above.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 11:37pm:
Do you disagree with the old boy above?



You do understand they are two entirely different questions? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Although you seem to think global warming = AGW = Climate Change = Man made Climate Change.


Not for the rest of us, Lee. Global warming is caused by our cars and planes and and factories. We're only just going off the evidence, dear. The "human caused" part's just PR, started up by the fossil fuel lobbies and spread by Fox News and Liberal/National politicians.

Now I'm curious. If you're saying you haven't made up your mind yet, why are all your posts about denying global warming?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 26th, 2019 at 3:05pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:45pm:
Seems to be the consensus here, Lee. Still not calling it a hoax?


Oh dear. Another person who confuses consensus with science. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 26th, 2019 at 3:14pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:53pm:
Global warming is caused by our cars and planes and and factories.



So how do you explain the warming in prior warming periods? Long before cars , planes and factories?

What is the "normal" temperature of the earth so that we can tell what warming is natural and that which is not?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:53pm:
We're only just going off the evidence, dear.



What evidence is that? Climate models? Climate models are not science.

Surely you're not going with correlation is causation?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:53pm:
The "human caused" part's just PR, started up by the fossil fuel lobbies and spread by Fox News and Liberal/National politicians.


Oh dear so all global warming is man made?

Was it the Romans driving their 6 in hands (horses) that caused the Roman Warm period?

How about that Hannibal eh, driving elephants over the top of snowy mountains. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:53pm:
Now I'm curious. If you're saying you haven't made up your mind yet, why are all your posts about denying global warming?


You still haven't posted any evidence of that. Or the one where I said the earth is cooling. Make up your mind.

As I said before you only consistency is your inconsistency.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:06am

lee wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:22pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/5/eaar5809.full

Climate models predict increasing temperature variability in poor countries



Too funny. Climate models do so where are the climate scientists who said so before the climate models? It must be based on something mustn't it?

And from 2018? The last time I looked that was nowhere near "two decades" ago.




freediver wrote on Apr 24th, 2019 at 6:14pm:
Extreme events such as heat waves are among the most challenging aspects of climate change for societies. We show that climate models consistently project increases in temperature variability in tropical countries over the coming decades, with the Amazon as a particular hotspot of concern.



Oh  somewhere in the future?

How far in to the future petal? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

You do know climate models are proof of nothing?


It's already happening, as your own evidence demonstrates. Once more a climate skeptic discredits himself with his own evidence, and still does not realise even after it is pointed out to him.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:04am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 12:45pm:

Ajax wrote on Apr 26th, 2019 at 9:16am:

Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2019 at 8:16pm:
Man-made climate change is a hoax.


X2....................... 8-)


Seems to be the consensus here, Lee. Still not calling it a hoax?


Is there a scale for consensus among nongs ?

Is this a 9.5 on the nong scale ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:06am
If you want to address carbon omissions then having a fixed price on production of these emissions is the most direct and efficient method to do so.

Carbon Trading and the other options all expose the process to corruption and counter productive processes.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:07am
Lee's got an open mind, FD. For all we know, the world could be cooling. Siberia had a most unseasonable cold snap last year, you know.

We have to consider all the evidence, you see.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 1:00pm

freediver wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:06am:
It's already happening, as your own evidence demonstrates.



No petal. According to the science it is in the future, " project increases in temperature variability in tropical countries over the coming decades".

Climate model predictions. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 1:02pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:07am:
Lee's got an open mind, FD.



While Karnal has no mind. Never mind.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 1:03pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:04am:
Is there a scale for consensus among nongs ?

Is this a 9.5 on the nong scale ?


yes. They think they know about AGW and how we are all gunna fry. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:32pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 1:02pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:07am:
Lee's got an open mind, FD.



While Karnal has no mind. Never mind.


Quote me.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:39pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:32pm:
Quote me.



I just did.

Bite me. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:56pm
I in
lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 1:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:04am:
Is there a scale for consensus among nongs ?

Is this a 9.5 on the nong scale ?


yes. They think they know about AGW and how we are all gunna fry. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


I would do no such thing, Lee, I might get drugged by your chuckles.

Now back to the topic, what's the best way to deal with global warming?

I look forward to your considered response.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:46pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 1:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 11:04am:
Is there a scale for consensus among nongs ?

Is this a 9.5 on the nong scale ?


yes. They think they know about AGW and how we are all gunna fry. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Don't suppose you could post something that is true ?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:47pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:56pm:
Now back to the topic, what's the best way to deal with global warming?


Seeing as climate is considered to be at least 30 years weather, per WMO; how does man control weather? ::)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:56pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:46pm:
Don't suppose you could post something that is true ?


""Climate change is different because we have an expiration date. And the IPCC report says that we've got 12 years to turn it around, " asserted Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.) during a recent MSNBC town hall. "So my concern is that we are going to be the frog in the pot of boiling water and we're going to debate and debate and debate and debate and then when we finally pass something it is a wimpy carbon tax and our kids are doomed."


https://reason.com/2019/04/05/rep-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-is-wrong-th/

She didn't say "fry" but according to her it won't be because we froze to death. ;)

"Climate Change Isn’t Just Frying the Planet—It’s Fraying Our Nerves"

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/02/climate-change-isnt-just-frying-the-planet-its-fraying-our-nerves/

;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:01pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:47pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 2:56pm:
Now back to the topic, what's the best way to deal with global warming?


Seeing as climate is considered to be at least 30 years weather, per WMO; how does man control weather? ::)


That's a question, dear. I asked you how we should deal with it.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:27pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:01pm:
That's a question, dear. I asked you how we should deal with it.


very good petal. Now seeing as we can't control the weather it seems we can't control the climate.

Now if you have a plan to control the weather, please let us know. You might even get a Nobel prize, just like Al Gore. ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:57pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:56pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 3:46pm:
Don't suppose you could post something that is true ?


""Climate change is different because we have an expiration date. And the IPCC report says that we've got 12 years to turn it around, " asserted Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.) during a recent MSNBC town hall. "So my concern is that we are going to be the frog in the pot of boiling water and we're going to debate and debate and debate and debate and then when we finally pass something it is a wimpy carbon tax and our kids are doomed."


https://reason.com/2019/04/05/rep-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-is-wrong-th/

She didn't say "fry" but according to her it won't be because we froze to death. ;)

"Climate Change Isn’t Just Frying the Planet—It’s Fraying Our Nerves"

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/02/climate-change-isnt-just-frying-the-planet-its-fraying-our-nerves/

;)



Quote:
And the IPCC report says that we've got 12 years to turn it around,


Considering we have done nothing to turn it around in the last 25 years what makes any change in the next 12 likely. It has also been said that the longer we wait to act the more it is going to cost.

The cost to turn it around in 12 years would be prohibitive. To this point we have failed while not trying to turn it around, to this point we have only been trying to slow down the increases or in the case of Liberal governments to do nothing.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 5:10pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:27pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:01pm:
That's a question, dear. I asked you how we should deal with it.


very good petal. Now seeing as we can't control the weather it seems we can't control the climate.

Now if you have a plan to control the weather, please let us know. You might even get a Nobel prize, just like Al Gore. ;)


So let me get this right - your solution to global warming is to do nothing, is that right?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 5:36pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:57pm:
Considering we have done nothing to turn it around in the last 25 years what makes any change in the next 12 likely. It has also been said that the longer we wait to act the more it is going to cost.


How do you cost controlling the weather when we can't do it now?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 5:10pm:
So let me get this right - your solution to global warming is to do nothing, is that right?


Seeing as we can't control the weather? Exactly.

What is your plan to control the weather?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 5:36pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:57pm:
Considering we have done nothing to turn it around in the last 25 years what makes any change in the next 12 likely. It has also been said that the longer we wait to act the more it is going to cost.


How do you cost controlling the weather when we can't do it now?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 5:10pm:
So let me get this right - your solution to global warming is to do nothing, is that right?


Seeing as we can't control the weather? Exactly.

What is your plan to control the weather?


I see. What about controlling other things, Lee?

Phosphates spilling into the Great Barrier Reef? Irrigation destroying the Murray Dowling river system? Fracking polluting water tables?

Exhaust and factory emissions causing mass breathing problems? Deforestation for paddocks and palm oil plantations? Disposable plastic entering the river-systems and oceans and killing marine life?

Do you think we should do nothing about those things too, dear?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:16pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm:
I see. What about controlling other things, Lee?



What about them?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm:
Irrigation destroying the Murray Dowling Darling river system?


It is not good. It was always a half arsed idea taking more water than it could tolerate. But that has nothing to do with a carbon tax. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm:
Fracking polluting water tables?


To date there is no evidence of that. There has been conjecture. Is the fracking liquid carbon?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm:
Exhaust and factory emissions causing mass breathing problems?


Yes. Get rid of factories and automobiles. That should fix it. Of course that means no jobs, no transport for food and other consumables.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm:
Deforestation for paddocks and palm oil plantations?


You do know grasses (wheat, rye, oats) are plants and that they sequester CO2? But we could probably do without them, they are only food.

And of course we can always tell other countries not to plant palm oil plantations. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm:
Disposable plastic entering the river-systems and oceans and killing marine life?


Yes people are really grubs. Why the emphasis on "disposable" plastic? Disposable plastic breaks down even naturally occurring plastics break down.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm:
Do you think we should do nothing about those things too, dear?


Tell us what having a carbon tax will do for them.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm
Thanks, Lee. You've just established that, not only do you believe in no change to industrial practices, you believe the world's biggest environment problems are a hoax too.

Sorry, I mean there's no evidence, the jury's still out.

But I'm curious. Why are you always citing the evidence of think tanks funded by the polluters?




Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:45pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 5:36pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 4:57pm:
Considering we have done nothing to turn it around in the last 25 years what makes any change in the next 12 likely. It has also been said that the longer we wait to act the more it is going to cost.


How do you cost controlling the weather when we can't do it now?


Nobody has ever said anything about controlling the weather except for you.



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:48pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:16pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:00pm:
Do you think we should do nothing about those things too, dear?


Tell us what having a carbon tax will do for them.


Putting a price on carbon provided incentive for those affected to reduce their emissions while funding other projects to improve in other ways.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:20pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
Thanks, Lee. You've just established that, not only do you believe in no change to industrial practices, you believe the world's biggest environment problems are a hoax too.



Nope. But think what you like.
You could try a line by line rebuttal, but you don't have the wherewithal.



Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
Sorry, I mean there's no evidence, the jury's still out.


Oh look karney is trying too sound sciencey.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
But I'm curious. Why are you always citing the evidence of think tanks funded by the polluters?


Which ones would those be? Or is that just another of your non-evidenced based assertions for which you won't provide a quote.

You are so silly.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:22pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:45pm:
Nobody has ever said anything about controlling the weather except for you.



yes petal. because you don't understand that according to the WMO climate is merely at least 30 years of weather.  If you an't control weather you can't control climate.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:25pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
Putting a price on carbon provided incentive for those affected to reduce their emissions while funding other projects to improve in other ways.



So how do you reduce emissions in concrete manufacture? That is a big CO2 emitter.

What about mine sites? Where do they get their reliable electricity supply from?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:46pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:20pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
Thanks, Lee. You've just established that, not only do you believe in no change to industrial practices, you believe the world's biggest environment problems are a hoax too.



Nope. But think what you like.
You could try a line by line rebuttal, but you don't have the wherewithal.



Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
Sorry, I mean there's no evidence, the jury's still out.


Oh look karney is trying too sound sciencey.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
But I'm curious. Why are you always citing the evidence of think tanks funded by the polluters?


Which ones would those be? Or is that just another of your non-evidenced based assertions for which you won't provide a quote.

You are so silly.


Come come, you've already referenced the IPA, dear. Your fracking argument's an industry study too. When they were confronted about all the industrial chemicals fracking injects into the ground, they said, oh ha ha, but they're nice chemicals.

All 40 of them.

They were forced to admit many weren't so nice at all.

So given we now know where you're coming from, Lee, the jig's up. But I'm curious. Why would anyone parrot what the big polluters say without even being paid for it?

You've already suggested environmentalists are on some huge racket, raking the money in. You know, global warming's where the big money is - not oil or gas or coal. Not the auto industry and manufacturing, oh no.

Methinks you doth protest too much, dear. Still, we know you're not getting a cent.

How tragic is that?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:21pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
Come come, you've already referenced the IPA, dear.


No petal. I referenced Jennifer Maharosy. There is a difference. It is like saying Chris Bowen is the ALP. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
Your fracking argument's an industry study too.



Seeing as I didn't reference any study that must make you a Nostra Dumb Arse.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
When they were confronted about all the industrial chemicals fracking injects into the ground, they said, oh ha ha, but they're nice chemicals.


You do understand fracking uses any pressurised liquid. Even water.

"Hydraulic fracturing of a single horizontal well can involve injection of millions of gallons of a 98% water fluid, taken from valuable freshwater sources or, increasingly, recycled from previous operations. However, water released from geological features and the injected fluid -- which also includes a “proppant,” such as sand, to hold fractures open, and typically around 1% of chemical additives – returns to the surface. "

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/policy/publicpolicies/sustainability/hydraulic-fracturing-statement.html

perhaps you should try to keep up with the times.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
So given we now know where you're coming from, Lee, the jig's up. But I'm curious. Why would anyone parrot what the big polluters say without even being paid for it?



ooh look another assertion without proof.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
Still, we know you're not getting a cent.



That's right petal. Unlike some who say I do. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
How tragic is that?



Not at all. I like the science. You just don't seem to offer any. Just assertion after assertion and some unnamed guilty party who apparently does all the fracking on earth.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:41pm
Oh, Lee, you're a right old quote-bomber. No wonder you like me quoting you so much.

Your ACS recommendations hardly reassure one about fracking, dear, but good on you for posting a neutral source.

A first?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:47pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:41pm:
Your ACS recommendations hardly reassure one about fracking, dear, but good on you for posting a neutral source.

A first?


No petal. But I also post "Climate Science" sources like the IPCC, and others like Berkeley Earth. It is just you're so fixated you don't notice. Or call them "cherry  picking". ;)

But a good effort this time. Now all you have to do is quote some science.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:54pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:22pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:45pm:
Nobody has ever said anything about controlling the weather except for you.



yes petal. because you don't understand that according to the WMO climate is merely at least 30 years of weather.  If you an't control weather you can't control climate.


You have never noticed that the attempt is to reduce the level of C02 emissions people put into the atmosphere ?

You are a long way behind the discussion on this topic aren't you.

Your constant stream of pedantry and straw man argument seem doomed to failure.



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:59pm

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:47pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:41pm:
Your ACS recommendations hardly reassure one about fracking, dear, but good on you for posting a neutral source.

A first?


No petal. But I also post "Climate Science" sources like the IPCC, and others like Berkeley Earth. It is just you're so fixated you don't notice. Or call them "cherry  picking". ;)

But a good effort this time. Now all you have to do is quote some science.


You only post them to hold them to ridicule, Lee, you know that.

You're not interested in science, let's just agree on that. You're interested in keeping fossil fuels.

Why, I haven't yet discovered - a nostalgia for old engines, perhaps? The days of the factory whistle? Flares and desert boots?

But we do know this, you have never once read an article on climate change without prejudice. You make your judgement before you even read it.

I usually look at the formatting and skip to the conclusion and references, dear, but I'm hardly into "science."

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 28th, 2019 at 8:31am

lee wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 9:25pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
Putting a price on carbon provided incentive for those affected to reduce their emissions while funding other projects to improve in other ways.



So how do you reduce emissions in concrete manufacture? That is a big CO2 emitter.

What about mine sites? Where do they get their reliable electricity supply from?


The two components of emission - direct and indirect come from the substances used (direct) and power used (indirect).

The power consumption can be reduced by around 40% by using cleaner energy sources and the the production process can be improved by about 20 % by using more friendly chemicals in the process, mostly removing lime and replacing it with other options.

Power in general will become cleaner with development - A price on carbon is a huge incentive to produce cleaner power which will drive this development at a much quicker rate.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:29am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:54pm:
You have never noticed that the attempt is to reduce the level of C02 emissions people put into the atmosphere ?



yes petal. Now all you have to do is prove it will change anything.

Edit: To what level should it be reduced? The science that says that is a safe level?

You do know temperature drives CO2, don't you?

Increasing temperature warms the oceans and the oceans are the greatest source of CO2.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:54pm:
You are a long way behind the discussion on this topic aren't you.


No petal. I look at the science. You look at what's trending on social media.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:54pm:
Your constant stream of pedantry and straw man argument seem doomed to failure.


Oh dear. Science is pedant petal. Words in science have specific meaning. But you like yours nicely malleable so that they can mean anything.

Strawman? Really. perhaps you can quote one. ;)




Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:39am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:59pm:
You only post them to hold them to ridicule, Lee, you know that.



When they don't stack up then that is the only purpose for which they are fit.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:59pm:
you're not interested in science, let's just agree on that. You're interested in keeping fossil fuels.


Oh dear. Another assertion, another strawman.

But let's look at that.

Of course the answer is no. The only thing that currently has the necessary energy density at the moment is nuclear. But you blokes won't touch that. Solar and wind don't have it. So until we either go nuclear or some new exciting energy comes on stream we are stuck.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:59pm:
But we do know this, you have never once read an article on climate change without prejudice.


That's true. And it should be for you and everyone. Don't just accept what is written, question, learn. That is the path to enlightenment. Not some "oh, that looks good".


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:59pm:
You make your judgement before you even read it.



No petal. The judgement comes after.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:59pm:
I usually look at the formatting and skip to the conclusion and references, dear, but I'm hardly into "science."



yes. I can understand that. Formatting is so important. The conclusions don't necessarily have to rely on what is in the references. But if it "sounds good" then it must be "good".

And the fact that you are "hardly" into science shines like a beacon throughout your posts.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:55am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 8:31am:
The two components of emission - direct and indirect come from the substances used (direct) and power used (indirect).



very good.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 8:31am:
The power consumption can be reduced by around 40% by using cleaner energy sources and the the production process can be improved by about 20 % by using more friendly chemicals in the process, mostly removing lime and replacing it with other options.



Citation needed.

So how do the mining companies get this new, cheap, reliable power?

Divert attention away from their core competencies and research it? Rely on the new improved power generation outfits that haven't, as yet, been able to make electricity generation cheap and reliable?

You do know the difference between nameplate capacity and capacity factor? You do know that capacity factor is using statistics and that will only tell the the likelihood of something happening? Statistics may say you will get around 6 hours of wind a day, on average. The reality may be that they could have a "wind drought" for two or three days and then wind for 12 hours a day for three days.

More friendly chemicals? But people don'y trust the more friendly chemicals. Look at Karnals response to fracking liquid.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 8:31am:
Power in general will become cleaner with development - A price on carbon is a huge incentive to produce cleaner power which will drive this development at a much quicker rate.



It is only an incentive when the the power will be cheap, abundant, reliable. What is this new improved cleaner power? Carnegie Wave Power has just gone bust, taking with it federal and WA funds.

yes yes, I know. You can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs. But is supposed to be the role of private enterprise to pick winners. Not government.

But perhaps you can back to me on some of these new improved power sources that provide cheap energy when needed. Not reliant on whether the sun is shining or the wind is blowing.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 28th, 2019 at 12:54pm
Oh, you're not into science either, Lee. We all know that.

We're discussing the major environmental issues of our time, and your scientific conclusion? Do nothing. Wait and see.

Well, develop nuclear power, but "we blokes" won't let you.




Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 2:12pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 12:54pm:
Oh, you're not into science either, Lee. We all know that.



Another assertion without evidence. The ONE thing you are good at.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 12:54pm:
We're discussing the major environmental issues of our time, and your scientific conclusion? Do nothing. Wait and see.


Really. I thought it was about carbon taxes being the BEST.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 12:54pm:
Well, develop nuclear power, but "we blokes" won't let you.


Was that supposed to have some meaning?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 28th, 2019 at 3:09pm
Not at all, Lee, we have all your quotes.

If you were into science, you'd be interested in all those climate models and projections (true or false), but the only time you mention them is to ridicule or inanely distract.

Yes, Lee. Your nuclear stance has meaning. It shows that this debate, for you, is all about targeting "you blokes".

You believe global warming is some concoction by the leftards, and that - and only that - is why you oppose it.

I understand those like Barnaby Joyce and the IPA - they get political donations and funding from coal. Even Bill Shorton denied global warming when he led a union that supported coal miners.

But you?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 3:28pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
Not at all, Lee, we have all your quotes.



And yet you won't show what you allege is true. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
If you were into science, you'd be interested in all those climate models and projections (true or false), but the only time you mention them is to ridicule or inanely distract.


No petal. I'm only interested in the climate models that are true. And there aren't any of them.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
Yes, Lee. Your nuclear stance has meaning. It shows that this debate, for you, is all about targeting "you blokes".



Oh dear. Perhaps you mean blokes like you don't want nuclear because wind and solar are up to the task. But if that were the case we wouldn't need batteries, would we?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
You believe global warming is some concoction by the leftards, and that - and only that - is why you oppose it.



No petal. According to the science, all things being equal, CO2 will have some warming effect.

Two things to note -

1. All things don't remain equal.
2. What needs to happen is to know at least two out of three parameters to show CO2 is the cause. The three parameters are Total CO2 emissions, Total Natural CO2 emissions and lastly Total anthro emissions. The truth is we don't.

Then of course you could look at AR5 and the number of parameters within the climate models, which aren't science by the way.

"With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk."

John von Neumann



Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
I understand those like Barnaby Joyce and the IPA - they get political donations and funding from coal. Even Bill Shorton denied global warming when he led a union that supported coal miners.



You do? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
But you?



Oh dear. poor karney doesn't know the scientific method. It is nothing like the rhythm method. ;)

But you didn't tell us how fixing the Murray Darling required a carbon tax.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:24pm
I don't think fixing the Murray Darling requires a carbon tax, dear. Truth be told, I'm on the fence about carbon taxes myself.

I guess they're good to kickstart the transition to renewables and low-polluting technology, but they're not going to see much of a decline in global CO2 levels in themselves.

You need, as Europe and California have, the will.

China is joining in, rapidly turning things around. Things are going leaps and bounds in the biggest CO2 emitter in the world. If they can get a start, we can too.

This is all about science - efficiency, sustainability. The only reason you reject it is you think it's a massive leftard plot.

You know, backed by the Royal Family, the Tories and pretty much every centrist conservative party in the world. Even our own Libs play lip service to the science, even though they refuse to do anything about global warming and our own energy problems.

This is not about the "science", as you well know. It's about your devout opposition to all those leftards.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Dnarever on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:28pm

lee wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:29am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:54pm:
You have never noticed that the attempt is to reduce the level of C02 emissions people put into the atmosphere ?



yes petal. Now all you have to do is prove it will change anything.

Edit: To what level should it be reduced? The science that says that is a safe level?

You do know temperature drives CO2, don't you?

Increasing temperature warms the oceans and the oceans are the greatest source of CO2.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:54pm:
You are a long way behind the discussion on this topic aren't you.


No petal. I look at the science. You look at what's trending on social media.


Dnarever wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 10:54pm:
Your constant stream of pedantry and straw man argument seem doomed to failure.


Oh dear. Science is pedant petal. Words in science have specific meaning. But you like yours nicely malleable so that they can mean anything.

Strawman? Really. perhaps you can quote one. ;)



Quote:
You do know temperature drives CO2, don't you?

Increasing temperature warms the oceans and the oceans are the greatest source of CO2.


Parts of the natural cycle have been reasonably consistent for for up to thousands of years and relatively in balance.

People dumping an additional few hundred million tons a week for the last 150 years is not part of the natural cycle, it is all additional and easy to understand how it would upset the balance.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:06pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:24pm:
I don't think fixing the Murray Darling requires a carbon tax, dear. Truth be told, I'm on the fence about carbon taxes myself.


But you brought it up in a thread about a carbon tax being the best. ;)
Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:24pm:
China is joining in, rapidly turning things around.



oh you mean the China that has quietly started up those coal generation plants that they had stopped? That China? perhaps you shuld have said India? Nah. They have said that they will do what is necessary.

"A glaring exception to the global decline in coal plant development was China, where satellite photos show developers have quietly restarted construction on dozens of suspended projects. A new report by the China Electricity Council, which represents the country’s power utilities, proposes setting the country’s coal capacity cap at 1,300 gigawatts, a level that would allow 290 gigawatts of new capacity to be added—more than the entire coal fleet of the U.S. (259 gigawatts)."

https://www.sierraclub.org/press-releases/2019/03/new-report-global-slowdown-coal-power-investment-continues-chinese-power


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:24pm:
This is all about science - efficiency, sustainability


So somehow these renewables, which can't provide the power as and when needed, will be able to maintain a steady state for steel, electronics and other products that need a steady supply?

How does coal-less steel get made?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:24pm:
You know, backed by the Royal Family, the Tories and pretty much every centrist conservative party in the world. Even our own Libs play lip service to the science, even though they refuse to do anything about global warming and our own energy problems.


Just what can we do about global warming petal? It was warmer during the Roman Warm Period. And according to the ice cores CO2 wasn't to blame.

And what about those energy problems? Solar and wind can't do it. Batteries can't do it. That you beaut SA battery has enough power for 3 minutes.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:24pm:
This is not about the "science", as you well know.


Do you mean "Climate Seance Science"TM?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:15pm

Dnarever wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 5:28pm:
Parts of the natural cycle have been reasonably consistent for for up to thousands of years and relatively in balance.



You do know "balance" is a human contruct?

Now according to the science the imbalance as per Hansen, another climate scientist, is 0.58W/m2.  The uncertainties are listed as 17w/m2, So the uncertaities are abot 30 times larger than the supposed "imbalance".

But as I have said previously please post some science if you disagree.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:19pm
Germany's a leading industrial economy, Lee. And yet, 65% of their electricity is now coming in from renewables.

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/renewables-generated-a-record-65-percent-of-germanys-electricity-last-week

Now I don't think you don't believe it can be done, I think you oppose it. I think you want to keep burning fossil fuels and you want to keep polluting. Why?

To get back at the leftards.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:49pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:19pm:
Germany's a leading industrial economy, Lee. And yet, 65% of their electricity is now coming in from renewables.

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/renewables-generated-a-record-65-percent-of-germany...



wow. For a whole week. is that supposed to be impressive?

"Germany struggles with dirty energy in climate change battle ..."

https://www.ft.com/content/897922e2-129b-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 7:16pm
"The revamped Franco-German alliance is fracturing thanks to the countries’ differing approaches to climate policy.

The rift between Paris and Berlin was evident ahead of a summit of EU leaders on Thursday and Friday where the bloc's long-term climate strategy is on the agenda, according to unpublished documents reviewed by POLITICO.

Climate policy is dividing countries, with some “vehemently opposed” to having any meaningful discussion on the topic at the summit, according to an EU diplomat.

France is spearheading a group of countries that want the EU to cut emissions to net zero by 2050 — meaning the bloc would absorb as much greenhouse gases as it emits. That’s seen as crucial in reaching the more ambitious goal of the 2015 Paris Agreement, which aims to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees.

But Germany, long at the forefront of pushing greener policies, is now getting cold feet thanks to the economic and political costs."

https://www.politico.eu/article/franco-german-alliance-splinters-over-climate-policy/

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:46pm

lee wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:49pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 6:19pm:
Germany's a leading industrial economy, Lee. And yet, 65% of their electricity is now coming in from renewables.

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/renewables-generated-a-record-65-percent-of-germany...



wow. For a whole week. is that supposed to be impressive?

"Germany struggles with dirty energy in climate change battle ..."

https://www.ft.com/content/897922e2-129b-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e


You don't think that's impressive, eh?

Of course you don't. Your role here is to try to prevent this from occurring.

South Australia's on track to meet its 75% target in 6 years. Some days, it already does.

Over on this side of the continent, the Snowy 2.0 scheme is designed to be that battery you mentioned. The ACT's building a solar plant. It has just announced a renewable target of 100% - by next year.

So yes, I think a carbon tax would help this momentum. Australia has everything we need for a fully energy-efficient country. The transition to renewables could happen a lot quicker than we once thought.

And in 20 years time, you'll still be denying global warming/cooling and hammering away about bringing back coal power.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:05pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
You don't think that's impressive, eh?


No. at least one month preferably two.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
Of course you don't. Your role here is to try to prevent this from occurring.



Exactly how will I stop Germany getting to any level they want?


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
South Australia's on track to meet its 75% target in 6 years. Some days, it already does.


Some days eh?

Now that you have said those things. What happens, in Germany the other 51 weeks of the year? Fossil fuel still?  Same applies to SA.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
Over on this side of the continent, the Snowy 2.0 scheme is designed to be that battery you mentioned.



Yes petal Hydro can do that. Of course there is not much scope for hydro over much of Australia.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
The ACT's building a solar plant. It has just announced a renewable target of 100% - by next year.


Targets are merely that. It is the achievement of targets that are should be newsworthy. tell us when they achieve their target.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
Australia has everything we need for a fully energy-efficient country.


Yes. Wind, Drought, Floods. Of course it doesn't help Solar in heavy rain events. It doesn't help wind in wind drought conditions.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 9:46pm:
And in 20 years time, you'll still be denying global warming/cooling and hammering away about bringing back coal power.



In 20 years times I will have probably popped my clogs.

But you initially insisted China was going well, then Germany. I pointed out that was fallacious.

And then there is that tiny detail people don't want to mention.

While the rest of the world is blathering about their hopes to achieve net zero emissions - we are already there.  Because Australia is a carbon sink.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:12pm
Germany and China are on the road. There is no doubt about how serious the Krauts and Chows are about energy efficiency. Even India is now rolling out solar panels at a huge rate.

No one's denying the reality, Lee.

Except you, dear.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:32pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:12pm:
Germany and China are on the road. There is no doubt about how serious the Krauts and Chows are about energy efficiency



yes. That is why Germany is still mining Lignite the dirtiest coal. And China building more coal fired plants.

"A study by green campaigners CoalSwarm shows 259 gigawatts (GW) of coal-fired capacity under development in China.

This is almost equivalent to the total installed coal power capacity in the U.S. of 266 GW."


https://www.businessinsider.com.au/china-coal-fired-power-station-buildup-2018-9#7MBib221zwYILIUO.99

So new plant that nearly matches the total coal fired plant in the USA.


India? "Coal is king in India—and will likely remain so"


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/planetpolicy/2019/03/08/coal-is-king-in-india-and-will-likely-remain-so/


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 10:12pm:
No one's denying the reality, Lee.



That is the reality petal. They are building more coal fired plant. live with it.

And China is not only building coal plant in China but also overseas.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:50pm
Rather alarmist predictions you're quoting there, Lee.

We certainly won't quote that, dear.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:04am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:50pm:
Rather alarmist predictions you're quoting there, Lee.



Which predictions. The satellite photos of Chinese building new coal plants? St aright from a Green Eco site? Yes. Ican see why you wouldn't want to quote them.




Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:06pm

lee wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:04am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 28th, 2019 at 11:50pm:
Rather alarmist predictions you're quoting there, Lee.



Which predictions. The satellite photos of Chinese building new coal plants? St aright from a Green Eco site? Yes. Ican see why you wouldn't want to quote them.


You're right. That's scary. Unless...

Do you work in coal?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 29th, 2019 at 1:02pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
Do you work in coal?



No petal. Do you work for deep green?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:06pm
Deep green. That sounds nice, dear.

My point is not that coal is redundant. It's that we're in the dawning of the transition to renewable energy. While this is an  investment in the short term, it pays dividends in the long term. Solar, wind, hydro, thermal, etc, are free.

Australian energy prices keep rising, and we use coal. The economics of this are quite simple. They should not even be lost on someone who's sole dog in this race is political ideology.

China's coal does not just produce CO2, it produces mass lung problems. The government is serious in overcoming this. It's a huge political issue in China, where in some cities, people keep their kids indoors when the smog's at its worse.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:28pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
Deep green. That sounds nice, dear.


And you didn't rebut it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
While this is an  investment in the short term, it pays dividends in the long term.



May do.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
Solar, wind, hydro, thermal, etc, are free.


Well not actually. Solar collectors cost money, wind generators cost money, dams cost money, and sinking wells costs money.

We know Solar and wind are intermittent, therefore not going to provide a sustainable future.

Hydro is good, but as I pointed out the other day the sites for it are few, and they generate great angst because of drowning viable land.

Thermal is interesting. The only thermal I know of was in SA and it was closed because it was not viable. In the US they have had troubles because the hot rocks that underlie the thermal are actually cooling so getting less bang for buck as time goes on. Whereas other systems seem to get more bang for buck with the increasing passage of time.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
Australian energy prices keep rising, and we use coal. The economics of this are quite simple. They should not even be lost on someone who's sole dog in this race is political ideology.


And of course it has nothing to do with the burgeoning renewables sector and their subsidies. ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
China's coal does not just produce CO2, it produces mass lung problems. The government is serious in overcoming this


That must be why they are building so many more of them.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
It's a huge political issue in China, where in some cities, people keep their kids indoors when the smog's at its worse.


It is not a HUGE political issue in a one party state. And strangely the Chinese in Shangahai have a longer life expectancy than parts of the USA.

"China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-lifespan/china-overtakes-u-s-for-healthy-lifespan-who-data-idUSKCN1IV15L

"Life expectancy in Shanghai tops 83 years?"

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2017-03/29/content_28726570.htm


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:23pm
Your article states that Chinese coal generators are built by the private sector, dear, despite government opposition.

Here, our government can't even get it together to shape a cohesive policy. In Australia, domestic power generation is managed by the private sector too. Why would it invest in renewables if, as you say, it drives up power prices? Without a price on carbon, there is no incentive to do so.

In China, politicians have kids and elderly relatives. Some are elderly themselves. They are witnessing first hand - something we've never had to do - the effect of coal pollution on their own families.

That's the thing about air, Lee. We all share it.

Now rather than just arguing every point like a certain jellyfish that floats around here, why don't you tell us your own vision? Mine is homeostasis - an economy that balances nicely with the environment. This is what all systems of life, in one way or another, come to achieve. If not, the aggressive ones die - like a virus taken down by antibodies.

Indeed, many of the "symptoms" of global warming are the result of excessive CO2 - more jellyfish, for example, as the sea's pH balance changes.

What sound do you think that makes?


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:35pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
Your article states that Chinese coal generators are built by the private sector, dear, despite government opposition.



yes petal. that must be really really difficult in a one party state. They do have planning laws I assume. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
In Australia, domestic power generation is managed by the private sector too.


Sold by the States. And they also have planning laws. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
In China, politicians have kids and elderly relatives. Some are elderly themselves. They are witnessing first hand - something we've never had to do - the effect of coal pollution on their own families.


Yes. No politician in Australia has kids and elderly relatives. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
That's the thing about air, Lee. We all share it.



We all share what petal? The atmosphere? We don't share Shanghais's atmosphere.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
Mine is homeostasis - an economy that balances nicely with the environment.


Ah that balance thing again.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 9:23pm:
This is what all systems of life, in one way or another, come to achieve. If not, the aggressive ones die - like a virus taken down by antibodies.


I wonder what the balance would be without antibiotics?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 29th, 2019 at 10:25pm
You can't do it, can you, dear? You can't explain your rationale.

Now we know it's not science. You've already admitted CO2 emissions are having some impact on warming.

We know it's not profit. You've just said you're not in the coal industry.

We know it's not health or aesthetics. Smog's not healthy or pretty (unless it's killing off people you don't like).

I wonder if you even consciously know it yourself. You want to oppose the leftards - we get that.

Could it be the jellyfish?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:31pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
You can't do it, can you, dear? You can't explain your rationale.


You were the one making stupid claims. People in China apparently illegally building things without approval. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
Now we know it's not science. You've already admitted CO2 emissions are having some impact on warming.


No petal I said all things being equal CO2 would have some impact on warming; but that all things aren't equal. You do like to twist what people say don't you? Or would you like the unvarnished truth - what you say is a lie.


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
We know it's not profit. You've just said you're not in the coal industry.


Ooh a grain of truth among the distortions. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
I wonder if you even consciously know it yourself. You want to oppose the leftards - we get that.


Another one of your "famous" assertions. ;)


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 10:25pm:
Could it be the jellyfish?


Do they have an impact on climate? ;)

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:55am
Don't want to say?

Or can't?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 30th, 2019 at 11:10am

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:55am:
Don't want to say?

Or can't?


Don't want to say what petal?

You seem to have lost something ad you want me to find it for you?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:04pm

lee wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 11:10am:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:55am:
Don't want to say?

Or can't?


Don't want to say what petal?

You seem to have lost something ad you want me to find it for you?


Your viewpoint?

Yes, I see what you mean.

That's a hard one.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:16pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:04pm:
Your viewpoint?



On what specifically?

You have gone from -

"You can't explain your rationale." to -

"Don't want to say?" to -

"Your viewpoint?"

You just don't seem to want to enunciate what your questions are all about?

If you can't do that I can't help you. I am not into cryptic. ;)



Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by tickleandrose on Apr 30th, 2019 at 3:37pm
Taking aside the climate change politics.  It is reality that we as humanity have to transit from carbon based energy generation - the least available energy form in the universe to that of renewable ones.   The issue is about timing, and many major powers in the world believe that we have reached a tipping point, with peak oil and depleting coal resources, against increasing population and pollution. 

And energy is intricately related to the rise and fall of global powers.  Suffice to say, whoever develops economically sound, renewable energy technology for the mass, will infact be prospers for the next 4 to 500 hundred years.   This is why major powers like the West and East are pouring billions of dollars into its development. 

Energy is power. Energy is money.

Imagine if Russia is the first country to develop suitable renewable power technique.  It does not even had to be for everything, just for general civillian use.  That would mean Russia will become energy independent as its own production would meet the needs of its military.  If thats the case then the world order will change. 

Its the same with if China, India does the same.

Now, imagine if Australia is the first one to make a breakthrough.  And we are able to make money off the patents of the technology, and export both energy and expertise.   That would drive an economy and prosperity in a scale that Australia will never seen before.  Perhaps the coming of another world power.   Much better than sticking with digging up coal and sell it for a pittance. 

As the world is a very capitalistic - the most efficient and effective way is through monetary poilices like carbon tax.  to encourage innovation and development.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 30th, 2019 at 3:49pm

tickleandrose wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 3:37pm:
Now, imagine if Australia is the first one to make a breakthrough.  And we are able to make money off the patents of the technology, and export both energy and expertise.   That would drive an economy and prosperity in a scale that Australia will never seen before.  Perhaps the coming of another world power. 


Or perhaps the greedy bastards would use us a stepping stone. We are a small country population wise after all.

You do see the difference in populations don't you?

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:35pm

lee wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:16pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 2:04pm:
Your viewpoint?



On what specifically?

You have gone from -

"You can't explain your rationale." to -

"Don't want to say?" to -

"Your viewpoint?"

You just don't seem to want to enunciate what your questions are all about?

If you can't do that I can't help you. I am not into cryptic. ;)


You really don't want to say now, do you, dear?

Float over, FD. We've got a new one.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:48pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:35pm:
You really don't want to say now, do you, dear?


Seeing as you haven't stated exactly for what you want a "rational" explanation? ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:35pm:
Float over, FD. We've got a new one.



Oh dear the ignorant and the totally bereft. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on May 1st, 2019 at 12:45am

lee wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:48pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:35pm:
You really don't want to say now, do you, dear?


Seeing as you haven't stated exactly for what you want a "rational" explanation? ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:35pm:
Float over, FD. We've got a new one.



Oh dear the ignorant and the totally bereft. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Indeed. Ask me who won last year's Jellyfish Awards.

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by DonDeeHippy on May 1st, 2019 at 6:35am

Mattyfisk wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 12:45am:

lee wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:48pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:35pm:
You really don't want to say now, do you, dear?


Seeing as you haven't stated exactly for what you want a "rational" explanation? ;D ;D ;D ;D


Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 9:35pm:
Float over, FD. We've got a new one.



Oh dear the ignorant and the totally bereft. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Indeed. Ask me who won last year's Jellyfish Awards.

If you have a view point you can be held accountable... we cant have that Karnal :D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on May 1st, 2019 at 11:24am

Mattyfisk wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 12:45am:
Ask me who won last year's Jellyfish Awards.



How can I possibly give a rational explanation of that petal? ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by lee on May 1st, 2019 at 11:28am

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 6:35am:
If you have a view point you can be held accountable... we cant have that Karnal


That really is stupid. Even for you.

How could I possibly be held accountable for my view on someone's alleged Jellyfish Award?  And all without any link. ;D  ;D ;D;

Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by Karnal on May 2nd, 2019 at 9:48am

lee wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 11:28am:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 1st, 2019 at 6:35am:
If you have a view point you can be held accountable... we cant have that Karnal


That really is stupid. Even for you.

How could I possibly be held accountable for my view on someone's alleged Jellyfish Award?  And all without any link. ;D  ;D ;D;


You're certainly in the running for this year, Lee.


Title: Re: carbon taxes are the best
Post by freediver on May 5th, 2019 at 1:30pm
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

Title: Re: climate skeptics derailing threads
Post by Ajax on May 12th, 2019 at 10:27am
Where does it say we don't believe in climate change....???

Now anthropogenic global warming that is another matter...!!!!

But climate change is real and is ALWAYS happening...!!!

ALWAYS............ :-*

Title: Re: climate skeptics derailing threads
Post by Valkie on May 13th, 2019 at 5:45am

Ajax wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 10:27am:
Where does it say we don't believe in climate change....???

Now anthropogenic global warming that is another matter...!!!!

But climate change is real and is ALWAYS happening...!!!

ALWAYS............ :-*


The earth, this planet spinning around in space, has gone through many global heating and cooling cycles over it's lifetime.

None of the great "climate alarmists" can Truely explain why, not one.
It's an inconvenient fact that this planet, for reason or reasons unknown occasionally changes magnetic poles, and has severe climate variations.

Mini ice ages, and heating cycles happen. FACT

They will happen again FACT

whether we are a major contributor is still to be factually demonstrated, the numbers are not fact, they are simply theory.

In saying the above, of course we should be cutting pollution.
Pooping in your own drinking water and home is simply stupid.
But until, if ever, we gain control of greedy multinationals, this is never going to happen.

And then tgere is the TRUE problem that no one wants to address or even discuss.

OVERPOPULATION

This is a far bigger threat to both our and all other species than any climate change rubbish.
But stopping or reducing population is a NO, NO better to overpopulated than actually look at a solution.

Title: Re: climate skeptics derailing threads
Post by Ye Grappler on May 13th, 2019 at 7:58am
On the subject heading - yeah - it's hard when so many will not agree with you.. ask our resident Mussophiles and such... impossible to win a point when people refuse to accept unquestioningly everything you say, even when it's supported by science...

I mean - Aboriginal Science didn't even get off the ground, since the resident Boongophiles chose not to discuss Aboriginal science/simple knowledge or the supremacist and patriarchal Wharte Man's Science of looking at Aboriginals and everything else *.... but chose instead to impute some fairy dust about how cunning the Originals were here with the lend etc before the Wharte Man stuffed it all up .......

Sacred Site, innit?

*wonder if any of that kind ever work out the even seeking for 'evidence' of a greater culture back then and then trying to pump it as Scientific Truth is incredibly condescending to the Indigenous?  I'm sure the Aboriginals are so happy now that Whartey has come along in his Land Cruisers and found out they had a wonderful civilisation before Cap'n Cook.....

Title: Re: climate skeptics derailing threads
Post by The_Barnacle on May 13th, 2019 at 12:01pm

Valkie wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 5:45am:
The earth, this planet spinning around in space, has gone through many global heating and cooling cycles over it's lifetime.

None of the great "climate alarmists" can Truely explain why, not one.


Incorrect.
Natural climate change through history happened for lots of reasons
- changes in the earths orbit
- changes in the atmosphere
- changes in landmass due to continental drift
- changes in the sun

The difference is that this time it is humans that are changing the atmosphere

Title: Re: climate skeptics derailing threads
Post by lee on May 13th, 2019 at 2:50pm

The_Barnacle wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 12:01pm:
The difference is that this time it is humans that are changing the atmosphere


That's one theory.

There are others.

Global brightening for one.

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