Australian Politics Forum - climate skeptics derailing threads

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53324 At my desk.	Re: carbon taxes are the best Reply #180 - Apr 14^th, 2019 at 8:17am Frank you still have provided the source for those statistics. Were they also from pleaselietome.com?
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Ajax

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #181 - Apr 14^th, 2019 at 10:34am

freediver wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 5:59pm:

Thanks Ajax. All good examples of spewing random idiocy.

You have no idea have you.......???

Maybe this is how fact gets passed into myth.

Quote:

But let's start with the previous example. Do you recall telling us that the sun farts black holes at us,

Yes I do, you have no idea..... Cheesy

Quote:

or that climate scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?

Yes I do, like I said you have no idea..... Grin

Quote:

I'm trying to figure out whether you actually feel a sense of shame, or if you do not realise what is happening and just post on auto pilot.

What would you say to someone who is arguing with you and clearly hasn't got a clue...... Tongue

https://sciencespeak.com/MissingSignature.pdf

http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/

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« Last Edit: Apr 14^th, 2019 at 10:52am by Ajax »

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 11070 Australia Gender:	Re: carbon taxes are the best Reply #182 - Apr 14^th, 2019 at 10:37am Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 7:11pm: Good question, Ajax. Who was measuring CO2 levels during the little ice age? There are plenty of proxies to choose from dear, look some up.
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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 11070 Australia Gender:	Re: carbon taxes are the best Reply #183 - Apr 14^th, 2019 at 10:38am Dnarever wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 6:24pm: Even if it is only 95% or 93% I still put them in front of Frank. Besides the only one talking 97% is you. You know what I mean............
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The_Barnacle

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #184 - Apr 14^th, 2019 at 10:57am

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 6:24pm:

Ajax wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 9:41am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 9:19am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 7:18am:

According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. He said something about 1% of 1%. Should you two get your story straight?

Lets see - Do I believe Franks rambling opinions or many possibly hundreds of trained climate scientists who do not agree with Frank ?

You mean the 97% consensus.......LMFAO....!!!!

Do you even know how this came about......???

The 97% consensus........LOL..................... Cheesy

Even if it is only 95% or 93% I still put them in front of Frank. Besides the only one talking 97% is you.

It is the classic MO of human induced global warming deniers.
Cherry pick a statistic. Try and discredit it, and then claim that this demolishes the whole argument of AGW.
Whether it is 98%, 97% or even 90%. the fact is that the vast majority of scientists accept AGW as a reality and politically inspired keyboard warriors arn't going to change that.

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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.

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Ajax

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #185 - Apr 14^th, 2019 at 11:10am

The_Barnacle wrote on Apr 14^th, 2019 at 10:57am:

It is the classic MO of human induced global warming deniers.
Cherry pick a statistic. Try and discredit it, and then claim that this demolishes the whole argument of AGW.
Whether it is 98%, 97% or even 90%. the fact is that the vast majority of scientists accept AGW as a reality and politically inspired keyboard warriors arn't going to change that.

Barney do you even know where this statistic came from....??

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 11070 Australia Gender:	Re: carbon taxes are the best Reply #186 - Apr 14^th, 2019 at 11:10am [/url] Please read on................. https://www.forbes.com/sites/uhenergy/2016/12/14/fact-checking-the-97-consensus-...
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lee

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #187 - Apr 15^th, 2019 at 7:14pm

freediver wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 1:36pm:

scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?

lee wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 7:18am:

According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate.

Take it up with Frank. I gave you the science.
But I notice you didn't find any fault with what I wrote.

I asked Lee for the source for his stats - which he still has not done. Instead of that, you provided a completely different set of stats.

Hi I am back.plans change.

Exactly for which stats haven't I provided the source petal?

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lee

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #188 - Apr 15^th, 2019 at 7:27pm

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 9:46am:

lee wrote on Apr 12^th, 2019 at 9:46pm:

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 12^th, 2019 at 9:18pm:

But of course, dear. Higher Ph levels make the oceans more acidic. This kills fish and coral. Scientific consensus, innit.

No petal. Higher pH levels mean the ocean is more alkaline.

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 12^th, 2019 at 9:18pm:

If you want to pretend, post more krap.

Coming from you that is hilarious. Grin

Good point, dear. Thank you. So you admit pH levels are dropping, along with your cyclone theory.

How about glacial melting?

Where did I say pH levels were dropping?

Did you know pH levels vary by time, by day, by month, by season. Where did they get the data for this?

What time of day was it collected?

Season?

You do understand CO2 might cause pH levels to drop if ONLY it wasn't for that pesky Calcium Carbonate that buffers the CO2 level.

So far you have shown an abysmal LACK of scientific knowledge.

What part of cyclone theory do you consider wrong? Please tell us it will be good for a laugh.

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Paki gob on a stick

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #189 - Apr 16^th, 2019 at 8:26am

Ajax wrote on Apr 14^th, 2019 at 10:37am:

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 7:11pm:

Good question, Ajax. Who was measuring CO2 levels during the little ice age?

There are plenty of proxies to choose from dear, look some up.

You refuse to believe the current measures, but you believe atmospheric levels taken from rocks?

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issuevoter

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #190 - Apr 16^th, 2019 at 8:39am

freediver wrote on Mar 26^th, 2019 at 8:34am:

Putting a price on greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions is the cheapest, most economically efficient way to reduce emissions. Here is a statement of consensus from economists saying the same thing:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Carbon taxes overcome the two primary reasons for opposition to action on climate change:

1) The huge cost. Reducing GHG emissions is very cheap. What makes it expensive is government micromanagement (eg, MRETs, subsidies etc) - which makes about as much sense as asking the government to make and sell computers to us. There are simple ways to reduce emissions that people understand, the government can implement, and which have popular support. But they are the most expensive options. The cheap ways to reduce emissions are technically complex and beyond the reach of direct government intervention.

2) International cooperation. The currently preferred global mechanism is an emissions permit trading scheme. However this requires the creation of what is essentially a global currency, and it requires trust that all foreign governments will manage it correctly. That is a huge, and largely undeserved leap of faith. It also requires massive direct transfers of money between countries, which makes negotiations impossible. The alternative is a minimum agreed tax on GHG emissions. This is far simpler. Each country keeps it's own revenue, raised internally, and gets to "spend" it internally, for example by reducing other taxes.

All it takes is for people to get over their emotional over-reaction to the T word.

More info:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/green-tax-shift.html

I will be giving my first preference votes in both houses in the upcoming federal election to whichever party has the balls to publicly support carbon taxes. Malcolm Turnbull, Julia Gillard and Bob Brown have all publicly supported carbon taxes in the past. John Howard has supported and emissions trading scheme, which is the next best option from an economic perspective.

The first highlight is framed as a fact. It is not and cannot be proven otherwise, without a lengthy experiment, which will be very expensive if it fails to curb emissions. The second highlight is sarcastic and simplistic opinionating.

What we do know about governments is they love new taxes, and the money melts away into a general revenue wasteland.

But the idea that a huge international organisation and policing system to prop up a trading scheme, will actually function, is to put it mildly, naive.

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freediver

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #191 - Apr 16^th, 2019 at 12:57pm

issuevoter wrote on Apr 16^th, 2019 at 8:39am:

freediver wrote on Mar 26^th, 2019 at 8:34am:

Putting a price on greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions is the cheapest, most economically efficient way to reduce emissions. Here is a statement of consensus from economists saying the same thing:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Carbon taxes overcome the two primary reasons for opposition to action on climate change:

1) The huge cost. Reducing GHG emissions is very cheap. What makes it expensive is government micromanagement (eg, MRETs, subsidies etc) - which makes about as much sense as asking the government to make and sell computers to us. There are simple ways to reduce emissions that people understand, the government can implement, and which have popular support. But they are the most expensive options. The cheap ways to reduce emissions are technically complex and beyond the reach of direct government intervention.

2) International cooperation. The currently preferred global mechanism is an emissions permit trading scheme. However this requires the creation of what is essentially a global currency, and it requires trust that all foreign governments will manage it correctly. That is a huge, and largely undeserved leap of faith. It also requires massive direct transfers of money between countries, which makes negotiations impossible. The alternative is a minimum agreed tax on GHG emissions. This is far simpler. Each country keeps it's own revenue, raised internally, and gets to "spend" it internally, for example by reducing other taxes.

All it takes is for people to get over their emotional over-reaction to the T word.

More info:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/green-tax-shift.html

I will be giving my first preference votes in both houses in the upcoming federal election to whichever party has the balls to publicly support carbon taxes. Malcolm Turnbull, Julia Gillard and Bob Brown have all publicly supported carbon taxes in the past. John Howard has supported and emissions trading scheme, which is the next best option from an economic perspective.

The first highlight is framed as a fact. It is not and cannot be proven otherwise, without a lengthy experiment, which will be very expensive if it fails to curb emissions. The second highlight is sarcastic and simplistic opinionating.

What we do know about governments is they love new taxes, and the money melts away into a general revenue wasteland.

But the idea that a huge international organisation and policing system to prop up a trading scheme, will actually function, is to put it mildly, naive.

It is framed as a fact because it is so far beyond question.

BTW, scientific experiments do not establish facts. They are an attempt to disprove a hypothesis, but still rely on observation without elevating it to some immutable truth.

The coalition is heading into the next election with a policy of significantly reducing the tax burden, so you are wrong on that one too. The tax burden inevitably falls back to what people vote for.

All taxes are supposed to go into general revenue, including carbon taxes. They do not work so well because of how the money is spent, but because of how it is collected.

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freediver

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #192 - Apr 19^th, 2019 at 7:11pm

lee wrote on Apr 15^th, 2019 at 7:14pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 1:36pm:

scientists traveled back in time to disagree with themselves in 1920?

lee wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Apr 13^th, 2019 at 7:18am:

According to Frank we do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate.

Take it up with Frank. I gave you the science.
But I notice you didn't find any fault with what I wrote.

I asked Lee for the source for his stats - which he still has not done. Instead of that, you provided a completely different set of stats.

Hi I am back.plans change.

Exactly for which stats haven't I provided the source petal?

My bad, it was Frank. You provided the stats that support AGW.

Frank wrote on Apr 12^th, 2019 at 6:17pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 10^th, 2019 at 9:16pm:

"You are being alarmist. As evidence, here is a quote that is completely irrelevant, except that it is also alarmist"

No Lee it does not make much sense does it? If there is a hidden pearl of wisdom in your post, do let us know. Otherwise people might think it really is that stupid.

No wonder the climate skeptics prefer to copy and paste. Lee cannot do much better than a word association game, and when Ajax tried, we got the sun farting black holes at us and time travelling scientists going back to 1920 to disagree with themselves. It's kind of hard to argue with someone who can barely string a sentence together.

Lemme try, without cutting and pasteing.

There is no evidence anywhere that human carbon dioxide causes climate change. The idea is preposterous. for many reasons, the two main ones, in my view are:
We do not contribute sufficient CO2 to the atmosphere to make a difference to the climate. Human generated CO2 is a vanishingly small proportion of atmospheric gases, something approaching 0.0042 %. That's less than 1% OF 1%. Australia's share of that? Around 2% of the 1% of the 1%.

We do not fully understand how the climate works and how its various aspects work and interact. Models are models of partial and inadequate understanding of what is modelled.

The 'extreme weather events' are not new but we know about them - and about more of them - because of vastly improved communication, not because they occur more often.

That the Greens are all hot for 'climate change' should be a huge warning to all thinking people.

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lee

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Re: carbon taxes are the best
Reply #193 - Apr 19^th, 2019 at 7:52pm

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2019 at 7:11pm:

You provided the stats that support AGW.

Really? Exactly how much AGW is supported by the stats?

We have an hypothesis, we have the effect of CO2 being logarithmically reduced, - just how much AGW is that?

Then we have natural variation. Recently reported is the fact of the North Atlantic Oscillation overturning. it has been reported that this is causing cooling off Greenland and slowing glacier calving. So that natural variation has in some small part overcome any AGW.

They do say that AGW will resume when the NAO is overturned again.

Seeing as the periodicity of the NAO is given as 60-80 years, that is some way off. And we know what the IPCC said about the climate models it the Third Assessment report -

"In climate research and modeling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

Now 60 - 80 years is long term no matter how much you slice it and dice it.

So how much of the warming is from AGW?

That is what needs to be determined. If it is not catastrophic why do anything?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53324 At my desk.	Re: carbon taxes are the best Reply #194 - Apr 19^th, 2019 at 8:41pm It has been determined.
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