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Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy (Read 44871 times)

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98973	Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy Reply #75 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 8:04pm Gee, G, you're being ever so nice to FD by proposing that we invaded Iraq to fight terrorism. I say, weren't we there to ban Islam? I think you'll find that's just why FD changed his mind. What a success. Mission accomplished, no? .
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Karnal

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #76 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 8:06pm

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 7:28pm:

Quote:

Possible enslavement. But it doesn't make it a "quest for slaves". The "quest" was quite clearly the payment of tribute. Or as your own source clearly states: At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. It doesn't say "at issue was the Barbary pirates taking of slaves" or similar. It was at most a side issue - and an issue that clearly both sides were equally engaging in.

It doesn't say taking of slaves because the Americans were paying tribute as an alternative to becoming victims of Islamic slavery. Now, see if you can join the dots. Would you say that the paying of tribute was connected to the issue of slavery?

Quote:

I did not claim that. Read what I said again.

This is what you said:

Quote:

ie why not say the muslims were waging war against the west to stop the enslavement of muslims?

Why did you ask such a stupid question Gandalf?

Quote:

I quoted my source for the first claim. Read it again.

Did you quote it in this thread? Or some unrelated thread six months ago?

Quote:

The second claim is stating the bleeding obvious. Shall we add them up FD?

Yes. And while you are at it, how about you offer a bit more detail than waving your arms in the air and blurting rubbish about millions of people? Where did you get this claim from? Are you just parroting what your imam told you? Why are you so afraid to reveal your sources?

Quote:

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

My bad. I misread. So you don't think we are trying to establish democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan? If these countries did end up with functioning democracies, would you say it happened despite western interference, rather than because of it? Would you say the same thing about slavery - that all the western intervention to end slavery was actually doing the opposite, but the Muslim world just happened to stop slavery at the same time?

I did think you were being awfully generous to FD by speaking to him like a grown-up, G.

Next time you think of doing that, remember this post.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #77 - Oct 26^th, 2017 at 3:43pm

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 7:28pm:

Now, see if you can join the dots. Would you say that the paying of tribute was connected to the issue of slavery?

Of course it is. But it doesn't make it a "quest for slaves". The "quest" was to extort money from merchant vessels - not to round up slaves.

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 7:28pm:

This is what you said:

Yes and read till the end - where I said it would be as stupid an argument as yours.

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 7:28pm:

Did you quote it in this thread?

Yes. You even requoted it. Are you really that clueless as to what people post FD?

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 7:28pm:

blurting rubbish about millions of people? Where did you get this claim from?

Are you serious? You seriously don't think that European imperialism hasn't killed millions? Here you go, this is a good a starting point as any:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State

Quote:

It is argued that the reduction in the Congo was atypical and can be attributed to the direct and indirect effects of colonial rule and especially to disease and falling birthrate.[15] Estimates of the size of the overall population decline (or mortality displacement) remain disputed but range between two and 13 million.[b]

There you go FD - "millions" in just one of the many examples of European imperialism pillage and plunder.

Or how about the Spanish in South America?

Quote:

Spanish colonization of the Americas[edit]

It is estimated that during the initial Spanish conquest of the Americas up to eight million indigenous people died, marking the first large-scale act of genocide of the modern era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#Spanish_colonizatio...

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 7:28pm:

So you don't think we are trying to establish democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Clearly the US is keen on establishing something that they can label as a "democracy" for obvious PR purposes. The question is what that actually is in practice. Common sense dictates that where they still have a say on the matter (which is not really the case for Iraq anymore), they are not going to "try" to achieve, or even allow to happen a democratic outcome that threatens their interests. An obvious example would be the free and fair election of the Taliban, or similar. Much the same as when the EU, with US support, acted swiftly to punish the Palestinians economically for the free and fair election of Hamas in 2006. The US's track record in both Iraq and Afghanistan - eg propping up anti-democratic despots, and suppressing genuine grassroots democratic movements - confirms this common sense view.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #78 - Oct 26^th, 2017 at 5:05pm

Black slaves in islam?

a selection from this site tells us

In the over 13 centuries of the Arab slave trade in Africa unknown number of Africans were enslaved and shipped to the Middle East. It is claimed that a vast majority of the male black slaves, estimated at around 80%, were castrated.

The Caliphate in Baghdad at the beginning of the 10th Century had 7,000 black eunuchs and 4,000 white eunuchs in his palace. The Arab slave trade typically dealt in the sale of castrated male slaves. Black boys at the age of eight to twelve had their scrotum and penis completely amputated. Around 9 out of 10 bled to death during the procedure, but
the high price brought by eunuchs on the market made the practice profitable.

while parts of this site say

Black Slavery in the Middle East
It was more widespread and brutal than the American counterpart

The United States abolished the importation of slaves in 1808. Before that, 361,000 African slaves had been imported into English-speaking North America. [1] Through natural increase, their number in the United States rose to 1.75 million in 1825 and 4.5 million in 1861. By contrast, from the time of the Arab conquest of the Middle East in the seventh century, approximately 14 million black slaves were imported into the area that extends from Morocco through Iran.

&

Consequently, of the 3,000 female slaves emancipated in Zanzibar in 1860, only five percent had ever had a child. [5] Many of the children born to slave women were murdered. In 1856, the Anti-Slave Reporter observed that in Constantinople, the murder of the babies of black slave women was practiced “as a matter of course and without the least remorse.” As a result, in Constantinople, “it was commonplace for Turkish gentlemen to have numerous [black] concubines, [but] it was rare to see a mulatto.” [6]

then this one says in part

Another extremely cruel, dehumanizing and degrading aspect of Islamic slavery was the large-scale castration of male captives

&

it becomes evident that the overwhelming majority of the black slaves of the Islamic world were castrated;

&

The third reason for the high demand for eunuchs was homosexual infatuation of many Muslim rulers, generals and nobles. Eunuchs, kept for carnal indulgence, also called ghilman, used to be handsome young boys. They used to wear ‘rich and attractive uniforms and often beautified and perfumed their bodies in effeminate fashion.’ The concept
of ghilman comes from the following verses of the Quran, which describes heavenly male attendants (ghilman) in paradise:'
*‘Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well guarded.’ [Quran 52:24]
*‘There wait on them immortal youths, with bowls and ewers and a cup from a pure spring.’ [Quran 56:17–18]
*'Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. Quran 76:19
====================================================================

How stupid are black men today who bow down to islam?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #79 - Oct 26^th, 2017 at 6:46pm

moses wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 5:05pm:

Black Slavery in the Middle East
It was more widespread and brutal than the American counterpart

moses wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 5:05pm:

The United States abolished the importation of slaves in 1808. Before that, 361,000 African slaves had been imported into English-speaking North America.

moses wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 5:05pm:

By contrast, from the time of the Arab conquest of the Middle East in the seventh century, approximately 14 million black slaves were imported into the area that extends from Morocco through Iran.

Current estimates are that about 12 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic,[5] although the number purchased by the traders was considerably higher, as the passage had a high death rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

So an estimated total of 12 million slaves arrived alive in the Americas (little bit more than 361 thousand) - in a 300 year or so period. Compared to (your source's) estimate of 13 million slaves traded in the entire area Iran to Morocco over a period of around 1400 years.

Does that change the perspective somewhat moses?

« Last Edit: Oct 26^th, 2017 at 6:53pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #80 - Oct 26^th, 2017 at 6:51pm

moses wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 5:05pm:

How stupid are black men today who bow down to islam?

Probably almost as stupid as someone who falls for your blatantly dishonest spin of comparing apples to oranges - by comparing only the smallest arena of the Atlantic slave trade (English speaking North America) with the entire Islamic slave trade

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #81 - Oct 26^th, 2017 at 7:24pm

Quote:

Of course it is. But it doesn't make it a "quest for slaves". The "quest" was to extort money from merchant vessels - not to round up slaves.

I expect they would have put a fairly neutral price on it.

Quote:

Yes. You even requoted it. Are you really that clueless as to what people post FD?

Perhaps you shouyld just tell me instead of playing silly games Gandalf.

Quote:

Are you serious? You seriously don't think that European imperialism hasn't killed millions? Here you go, this is a good a starting point as any:

Were the Europeans responsible for disease, famine and falling birth rate?

And also, there was far more to your claim than that. Where did you get the actual claim from? Did you research it independently, or did you parrot something your Imam told you and now seek out some kind of validation?

Quote:

It is estimated that during the initial Spanish conquest of the Americas up to eight million indigenous people died, marking the first large-scale act of genocide of the modern era

Wasn't this mostly attributable to disease also?

Quote:

Clearly the US is keen on establishing something that they can label as a "democracy" for obvious PR purposes.

Would it be fair to say they pursue this goal by creating an actual democracy? And would it also be fair to say that the PR purposes are a reflection of the value placed on democracy by voters in the west?

Quote:

The question is what that actually is in practice. Common sense dictates that where they still have a say on the matter (which is not really the case for Iraq anymore), they are not going to "try" to achieve, or even allow to happen a democratic outcome that threatens their interests.

I'd say they are a bit more focussed on killing off ISIS than interfering. Also, the west was highly critical of the religious exclusion that happened through democratic processes in Iraq and has sought to interfere by making the government more inclusive. Hardly sinister stuff, Gandalf. You have to be pretty desperate for excuses to blame the evil west for the problems Muslims create for themselves to use that as an example.

Quote:

Much the same as when the EU, with US support, acted swiftly to punish the Palestinians economically for the free and fair election of Hamas in 2006.

Are you suggesting that the presence of democracy is a get-out-of-jail-free card for the consequences of government policy? Isn't that like saying it was wrong to depose Hitler because he was elected?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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moses

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #82 - Oct 27^th, 2017 at 8:00am

gandalf wrote Reply #79 - Yesterday at 6:46pm & Reply #80 - Yesterday at 6:51pm

Quote:

Why restrict your comparison to North America? Was it because you were afraid to reveal the fact that in the slave trades, the total figures between the two civilizations are actually comparable?

Meanwhile, in actual, non cherry-picked history:

So an estimated total of 12 million slaves arrived alive in the Americas (little bit more than 361 thousand) - in a 300 year or so period. Compared to (your source's) estimate of 13 million slaves traded in the entire area Iran to Morocco over a period of around 1400 years.

Does that change the perspective somewhat moses?

Probably almost as stupid as someone who falls for your blatantly dishonest spin of comparing apples to oranges - by comparing only the smallest arena of the Atlantic slave trade (English speaking North America) with the entire Islamic slave trade

My perspective has not changed one iota gandi.

I, as most normal people do, have an inbuilt aversion to slavery, I know it is wrong.

Where does my antipathy come from?

I am fortunate enough to have been born in an era and civilization, where slavery is an abomination.

However I know slavery was widely accepted in most societies from the dawn of time.

When the campaign to abolish slavery began, somewhere around about 250 years ago, my perception is that it was white people from Europe (Britain / France etc.) and America, who were at the very forefront of the movement to abolish slavery.

It most certainly was not any muslims who were agitating for the end of slavery 250 years ago.

Also the practice of "complete" castrates, which means their penis and testicles were cut off (eunuchs), is one of the most depraved and putrid evils of the slave trade,

Who relished in this evil deed gandi?

muslims loved it.

At least the American and European wanted entire slaves as this meant they could breed more slaves and not have to buy them.

So for my part I think muslims should hang their head in shame when it comes to the subject of slavery.

muslims were slave traders from day one of islam, they murdered babies who were born of their black concubines, they slaughtered untold millions of black males who did not survive the "complete castration" (eunuchs) process.

muslims are a sick people with their bacha bazi” and ghilman, a perverted qur'an which promises these little boys in allahs' brothel in the sky.

When it comes to slavery and depraved behaviour towards their fellow man gandi, muslims are at the very bottom of the heap.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #83 - Oct 27^th, 2017 at 9:47am

freediver wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 7:24pm:

Perhaps you shouyld just tell me instead of playing silly games Gandalf.

It is literally the only source I have quoted on the subject, and you requoted it in its entirety - clearly without even having read it. Who is playing silly games now? Estimated around 1 million muslim slaves taken based on extrapolation of known figures. Comparable to the number of European slaves taken by muslims. So can we start whining about Europeans 'raping and pillaging' and, oh yes, your favourite ' "depopulating" muslim lands in some barbaric "quest for slaves"? (which by the way, since I evidently need to keep pointing it out - is just a stupid argument as yours)

freediver wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 7:24pm:

Were the Europeans responsible for disease, famine and falling birth rate?

European diseases like small pox? - obviously. Particularly when they were spread deliberately. Do you seriously think that massive cultural and upheaval that comes with invasion and brutal occupation, along with all the terror campaigns that come with that - is not going to have an adverse impact on things like birth rates and famine?

Or shall we ask wikipedia? Remember, wikipedia is rock solid, otherwise it would be corrected within half an hour - remember?

1. Congo:

Quote:

2. South America:

Quote:

With the initial conquest of the Americas completed, the Spanish implemented the encomienda system. In theory, encomienda placed groups of indigenous peoples under Spanish oversight to foster cultural assimilation and conversion to Christianity, but in practice led to the legally sanctioned exploitation of natural resources and forced labor under brutal conditions with a high death rate. Though the Spaniards did not set out to exterminate the indigenous peoples, believing their numbers to be inexhaustible, their actions led to the annihilation of entire tribes such as the Arawak.[33] In the 1760s, an expedition despatched to fortify California, led by Gaspar de Portolà and Junípero Serra, was marked by slavery, forced conversions and genocide through the introduction of disease.

freediver wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 7:24pm:

And also, there was far more to your claim than that. Where did you get the actual claim from?

That there were more people slaughtered by European colonialism than at any other period previously seen in history? I call it stating the bleeding obvious - and yes, I made it up. Because its so bleeding obvious. Shall we add them up? few million in the Americas, few million in Africa, probably a few million in Asia - thats quite a few million, in a shockingly small period of time (~300 years). FD can you think of any other period prior to that, of around 300 years (or even longer if you like), where so many people have been killed as a result of imperialism (or any other action)? Obviously not - why? Because at no other point in history did any power have such reach, such technology and such power to cause so much destruction. Not because Europeans are inherently bad - and I'm sure the muslims would have done similar if they had the technology and wealth the Europeans had. It was the first time in which the world became "global". Before that, people just concentrated on slaughtering/subjugating in their own isolated little pockets. Even when empires grew big (eg Mongols, muslim), they didn't have the technology or resources to create as much destruction as the Europeans could. Of course the Europeans have exceeded themselves even of that impressive feat - as we saw from the near-apocalyptic carnage of WWI and WWII.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #84 - Oct 27^th, 2017 at 9:49am

freediver wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 7:24pm:

Would it be fair to say they pursue this goal by creating an actual democracy?

No. Creating an "actual democracy" wouldn't involve allowing Karzai to rig elections, or vetting candidates before they were allowed to stand.

freediver wrote on Oct 26^th, 2017 at 7:24pm:

You are really answering your own question regarding why the US wouldn't establish an "actual democracy" in Afghanistan or Iraq. It goes back to my point about common sense. If the west is going to oppose and actively undermine a group like Hamas in the event that they are democratically elected - and let me be clear, they may well be justified in doing so - why on earth would they facilitate their election in the first place? Thus the US would never countenance the possibility that belligerent candidates such as the Taliban could some day be freely and fairly elected to power in Afghanistan. So they take steps to ensure that is never a possibility in the first place. That is why they vet candidates before election and dictate who can and cannot stand for election. You're not seriously saying an "actual democracy" involves voting only for candidates that have been pre-approved by a foreign occupying power are you?

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy Reply #85 - Oct 27^th, 2017 at 11:44am I thought gandalf switched to Islam for spiritual reasons and not for political ones, or is that the same thing?
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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #86 - Oct 27^th, 2017 at 12:36pm

Quote:

It is literally the only source I have quoted on the subject

I didn't ask you to quote it. I asked where you got it from. Can you tell the difference? Do you often quote sources and pretend you wrote it yourself?

Quote:

European diseases like small pox? - obviously. Particularly when they were spread deliberately.

In what percentage of new world deaths would you say the disease was deliberately spread?

Are you also holding Europeans accountable for the cases that were not deliberate?

Quote:

That there were more people slaughtered by European colonialism than at any other period previously seen in history?

No Gandalf. I am asking you to stop being a slippery Muslim and back up what you actually said:

Quote:

Its estimated the Europeans had around 1 million muslim slaves during the 'Barbary' period, which was roughly the same as the number of European slaves held by the Barbary states.

Quote:

In the process they directly slaughtered or were responsible for the death of more people than at any time in the history of mankind.

Which of these are you trying to pass someone else's writing off as your own? Where did you get these claims from?

Quote:

No. Creating an "actual democracy" wouldn't involve allowing Karzai to rig elections, or vetting candidates before they were allowed to stand.

So it is only a real democracy if people can only get elected if we allow them to, but it is also not a democracy if we vet the candidates? Are you trying to define democracy out of existence?

Quote:

Because supporting democracy is not the same thing as giving elected leaders free reign on the global stage. Your point is completely irrelevant. Whether Hamas gets elected democratically has nothing at all to do with whether they get on with other governments. Democracy merely allows the population to correct the problem internally. It does not force them to, as the case of Hamas shows.

Quote:

Thus the US would never countenance the possibility that belligerent candidates such as the Taliban could some day be freely and fairly elected to power in Afghanistan. So they take steps to ensure that is never a possibility in the first place.

This is not possible Gandalf. You cannot control eternity. Democracy provides the mechanism for the majority to seize power and wield it how they will. It is inevitable that this will happen, no matter how many constraints it starts off with. The people will either lose democracy completely, or take charge of it. The middle ground that you suggest is our real agenda is inherently unstable.

Your suggestion flies in the face of common sense. If we did not want the Iraqi and Afghan people to control their own countries, then setting up democracy would be the last thing we would do, even if we only got them 80% of the way there.

Quote:

That is why they vet candidates before election and dictate who can and cannot stand for election. You're not seriously saying an "actual democracy" involves voting only for candidates that have been pre-approved by a foreign occupying power are you?

No. Nor does it involve occupying the country. Nor does it involve killing leaders, like we did with Saddam. Are you seriously suggesting we plan on doing any of these things indefinitely? Does that pass your common sense test?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #87 - Oct 27^th, 2017 at 2:38pm

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

I didn't ask you to quote it. I asked where you got it from.

Right, you just asked if I quoted it here or "some unrelated thread in the last 6 months". Are you now pretending you knew all along that I actually did quote my source?

Anyway feel free to actually check the source I have already quoted. All will be revealed I promise. At the end of the quote is a link which will tell you exactly where I "got it from". So sorry for being a slippery muslim, but I do take the view that if you respond directly to evidence I post, and even directly quote the very evidence I posted - then its pretty dumb to turn around and start playing the "err what evidence?" game. But for the sake of putting an end to an inanely stupid tangent, the post in which I provided the "easily above 1 million" (direct quote) estimate, along with the url of the source (university site, written by an actual expert in the field) is post# 52. And just for your reference, the post in which you directly quoted this estimate, but inexplicably knew nothing about it, is post# 55.

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

Are you also holding Europeans accountable for the cases that were not deliberate?

Yes. The diseases didn't spread because of some benign, innocent non-disruptive contact with the natives. They spread because the imperialistic Europeans barged in uninvited to rape and pillage and make slaves. But please, feel free to demonstrate your ability in spin and give us a jolly yarn about how imperialists who invade in order to rape and pillage - are somehow not responsible for the decimating effects of the small pox and common cold viruses they bring along with them.

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

Which of these are you trying to pass someone else's writing off as your own? Where did you get these claims from?

Are you now clear on the "easily above 1 million" (not my quote) muslim slave claim? Or would you like me to explain more about what you have already seen and requoted? The other claim, "In the process they directly slaughtered or were responsible for the death of more people than at any time in the history of mankind." - as already clearly explained is my own claim, that is based on the bleeding obvious. Do you need me to go through the figures again? By the way, you haven't answered my question - can you think of any other period in history where the actions of one power or civilization was responsible - indirectly and directly for so many deaths? You do agree that it runs into the millions right? Its almost certain that the muslims didn't even come close to creating as much death and suffering in 1400 years as the Europeans achieved in a mere ~300 years - wouldn't you agree?

« Last Edit: Oct 27^th, 2017 at 2:46pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #88 - Oct 27^th, 2017 at 3:13pm

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

And constrained they most definitely are at the moment - by the US and her allies, who
will not allow an "actual democracy" while ever they have the power to control Afghanistan. You're not disputing this basic point - despite your protestations that the US is somehow "trying" to establish democracy. Really, the only argument you can make here is that Afghan democracy will "inevitably" take flight, but only after the US either relinquishes control, or is forced out of Afghanistan politics. Even if you retreat to a "democracy was only possible because of US action" argument - its very different from the one you are attempting here - that the US is trying to create an "actual democracy". That is not their aim IMO - their aim is to eliminate the threat of terrorism. And no, I don't accept that (at least in the minds of US policy makers), creating a true democracy is the best remedy for that. The history of US active suppression of true democratic movements in regions of strategic interest suggests the exact opposite.

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

The middle ground that you suggest is our real agenda is inherently unstable.

Indeed it is - but just because a particular policy direction is clearly bad and short-sighted and makes things "inherently unstable", doesn't mean US leaders won't pursue it anyway. And its evident that the US in recent years have quite a flare for "inherently unstable" when it comes to their ventures in the middle east - wouldn't you agree?

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

If we did not want the Iraqi and Afghan people to control their own countries, then setting up democracy would be the last thing we would do

Your own personal theory on whats the best system to create stable and safe governments for western interests is entirely irrelevant to what western leaders think and do. As it turns out, there are plenty of examples in history (Iran, Chile, Nicuragua) where the US has done the exact opposite of what you suggest here. Instead they decided in their wisdom, to create despots who tirelessly suppressed democratic movements.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #89 - Oct 27^th, 2017 at 10:37pm

Plenty of examples? Your examples, G, are the rule. Uncle has never tried to establish "democracy" in another country, including Afghanistan and Iraq. The US even avoids the description of democracy for itself.

The jig's up. FD's silly Freeedom ruse got called out in Iraq. He's been shown all this, G, time and time again. We had these chats before you even came here. The pre-2007 FD once had them himself. Remember, FD once said exactly what you're saying now. No speaka da English, no?

The post-2007 FD is an imposter. The best he can do is complain about your spelling.

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