Australian Politics Forum - Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy

Mattyfisk

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #60 - Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 8:41am:

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2017 at 7:11pm:

Way to shift the goal posts Gandalf. Are you saying you now agree with me, but offer an et tu as some kind of argument?

Yes it is an 'et tu' argument - but not the way you think.

Your kindergarten logic that the west made war on the muslim world to stop slavery is flawed on two counts: 1. this supposedly anti-slave west was itself enjoying a thriving slave industry of its own at the time of the war you cite and 2. if the war was in response to the muslims taking western slaves, there is no reason why the same logic can't apply in reverse - ie why not say the muslims were waging war against the west to stop the enslavement of muslims? Its obviously a dumb argument to make, but no more so than yours.

You've done it now, G. FD's going to put you in Spineless Apologetics for saying the Muslims invaded us in the name of Freeeeedom.

Gandalf said...

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #61 - Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:42pm

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm:

Quote:

Yes it is an 'et tu' argument - but not the way you think.

Looks like the standard irrational et tu to me Gandalf.

Quote:

this supposedly anti-slave west was itself enjoying a thriving slave industry of its own at the time of the war you cite

Bans on slavery in the west began prior to the Barbary wars. The anti-slavery movement had been active for a very long time.

In any case, why would you expect the west to permit Muslims to wage war on them in a quest for slaves until slavery had been entirely eradicated in the west? Is this some idiotic Islamic notion of fairness? Or are you just upset that the west won and brought an end to institutionalised sex slavery, thus depriving Muslims of the primary historical mechanism for spreading Islam?

Quote:

if the war was in response to the muslims taking western slaves, there is no reason why the same logic can't apply in reverse - ie why not say the muslims were waging war against the west to stop the enslavement of muslims?

Because they were not. Though I am not surprised that a Muslim would simply discard the facts when they are inconvenient. They were following Muhammad's example of stealing everything they could, killing anyone who stood in their way, and catching slaves whenever they were in a position to do so.

Western nations killed a lot of Muslims to bring the slave trade to an end. They destroyed the Barbary slave trading ports. They followed this up with more of that "foreign interference" Muslims constantly whine about to end local slave trade and eventually free slaves in the Muslim world.

Contrary to your Islam-inspired BS spin, the timing of this is entirely consistent with the ending of slavery in the west. Meanwhile, Australian Muslims today are still travelling across the world to die for ISIS and participate in the newly resurrected Islamic trade in sex slaves. They do this in the name of Islam, not because it is all George Bush's fault. The west is still leading Muslim nations by the nose into the 19th century.

That's right. Look how successful we are at leading the Saudis by the nose.

We're bringing them Freeeedom. Every day, in every way, things keep getting better and better, no?

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moses

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #62 - Oct 24^th, 2017 at 2:48pm

muslims are exactly where you'd expect them to be, after 1400 years of islam.

How can anything be other than what it is, as muslims are totally subservient to the ravings of a deformed psychopath muhammad.

He created islam by giving his moon god allah a refashion.

Under muhammads' lunacy, the ancient moon god allah became a monotheistic god of hatred, muhammad taught that killing was compulsory, non-muslims and muslims who are considered to be hypocrites and corrupters are to be slaughtered by the higher grade of muslims.

These muslim assassins are to be given hour'is and little boys as a reward for their foul atrocities committed against mankind.

This is exactly what is happening today 1400 years later.

The irony is that many muslims who are the legitimate target of the killer muslims, are so deluded and brain washed they actually lie to try and excuse the very cause of all islamic terror problems (islamic doctrine).

The blood will always flow until truth prevails and someone (muslims and apologists), decide to question the perversion in the qur'an.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #63 - Oct 24^th, 2017 at 2:55pm

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm:

In any case, why would you expect the west to permit Muslims to wage war on them in a quest for slaves until slavery had been entirely eradicated in the west? Is this some idiotic Islamic notion of fairness? Or are you just upset that the west won and brought an end to institutionalised sex slavery, thus depriving Muslims of the primary historical mechanism for spreading Islam?

The first problem here is you labelling the Barbery Wars a "quest for slaves". At the very least you are being disingenuous. From your own source:

At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. If ships of a given country failed to pay, pirates would attack the ship and take their goods, and often enslave crew members or hold them for ransom.

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm:

They were following Muhammad's example of stealing everything they could, killing anyone who stood in their way, and catching slaves whenever they were in a position to do so.

And the Maltese and other Christian pirates who raped and pillaged and traded hundreds of thousands of muslim slaves - what sinister prophet were they following? Perhaps they were secretly muslim.

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm:

Western nations killed a lot of Muslims to bring the slave trade to an end. They destroyed the Barbary slave trading ports. They followed this up with more of that "foreign interference" Muslims constantly whine about to end local slave trade and eventually free slaves in the Muslim world.

On planet earth, in the actual past, western nations killed a lot of muslims to build themselves extraordinarily profitable empires. In fact they occupied virtually all of the muslim world at one point - as well as great swathes of the rest of the world. In the process they directly slaughtered or were responsible for the death of more people than at any time in the history of mankind. Even more than the muslims. This was in pursuit of wealth, not some altruistic campaign against slavery or rape.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #64 - Oct 24^th, 2017 at 4:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 2:55pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm:

In any case, why would you expect the west to permit Muslims to wage war on them in a quest for slaves until slavery had been entirely eradicated in the west? Is this some idiotic Islamic notion of fairness? Or are you just upset that the west won and brought an end to institutionalised sex slavery, thus depriving Muslims of the primary historical mechanism for spreading Islam?

The first problem here is you labelling the Barbery Wars a "quest for slaves". At the very least you are being disingenuous. From your own source:

At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. If ships of a given country failed to pay, pirates would attack the ship and take their goods, and often enslave crew members or hold them for ransom.

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm:

They were following Muhammad's example of stealing everything they could, killing anyone who stood in their way, and catching slaves whenever they were in a position to do so.

And the Maltese and other Christian pirates who raped and pillaged and traded hundreds of thousands of muslim slaves - what sinister prophet were they following? Perhaps they were secretly muslim.

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm:

Western nations killed a lot of Muslims to bring the slave trade to an end. They destroyed the Barbary slave trading ports. They followed this up with more of that "foreign interference" Muslims constantly whine about to end local slave trade and eventually free slaves in the Muslim world.

On planet earth, in the actual past, western nations killed a lot of muslims to build themselves extraordinarily profitable empires. In fact they occupied virtually all of the muslim world at one point - as well as great swathes of the rest of the world. In the process they directly slaughtered or were responsible for the death of more people than at any time in the history of mankind. Even more than the muslims. This was in pursuit of wealth, not some altruistic campaign against slavery or rape.

Well yes, but we did try. Every little bit helps, you know.

If the Muselman won't accept our help, what to do?

We installed marvellous despots to take care of them, and this is the thanks we get. Well I'm sorry, Muslims, but you could learn to show a little more gratitude and respect.

Typical.

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freediver

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #65 - Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:40pm

Quote:

The first problem here is you labelling the Barbery Wars a "quest for slaves". At the very least you are being disingenuous. From your own source:
At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. If ships of a given country failed to pay, pirates would attack the ship and take their goods, and often enslave crew members or hold them for ransom.

Sounds like a quest for slaves to me.

Quote:

And the Maltese and other Christian pirates who raped and pillaged and traded hundreds of thousands of muslim slaves - what sinister prophet were they following? Perhaps they were secretly muslim.

I'm sure if they had found out about Islam (by other means than becoming a galley slave) they would have appreciated the open religius sanction of rape and pillage. A billion Muslims can't be wrong eh?

Quote:

On planet earth, in the actual past, western nations killed a lot of muslims to build themselves extraordinarily profitable empires. In fact they occupied virtually all of the muslim world at one point - as well as great swathes of the rest of the world.

We are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan right now, for the purpose of establishing democracy.

Quote:

In the process they directly slaughtered or were responsible for the death of more people than at any time in the history of mankind.

How many Gandalf?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #66 - Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:56pm

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:40pm:

Quote:

The first problem here is you labelling the Barbery Wars a "quest for slaves". At the very least you are being disingenuous. From your own source:
At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. If ships of a given country failed to pay, pirates would attack the ship and take their goods, and often enslave crew members or hold them for ransom.

Sounds like a quest for slaves to me.

Quote:

And the Maltese and other Christian pirates who raped and pillaged and traded hundreds of thousands of muslim slaves - what sinister prophet were they following? Perhaps they were secretly muslim.

I'm sure if they had found out about Islam (by other means than becoming a galley slave) they would have appreciated the open religius sanction of rape and pillage. A billion Muslims can't be wrong eh?

Quote:

On planet earth, in the actual past, western nations killed a lot of muslims to build themselves extraordinarily profitable empires. In fact they occupied virtually all of the muslim world at one point - as well as great swathes of the rest of the world.

We are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan right now, for the purpose of establishing democracy.

Are we?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #67 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 8:45am

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:40pm:

Sounds like a quest for slaves to me.

Then you have a reading comprehension problem. Here it is again:

At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea.

Its estimated the Europeans had around 1 million muslim slaves during the 'Barbary' period, which was roughly the same as the number of European slaves held by the Barbary states. In light of this, explain to me FD how your fairy tale about one side representing the evil slavers and one side representing the noble anti-slavers stacks up?

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:40pm:

We are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan right now, for the purpose of establishing democracy.

Rubbish. We are/were occupying Iraq and Afghanistan for the purposes of eliminating the threat of terrorists and attempting to create stability. And if that means propping up anti democracy, and strongmen who directly work against democracy (eg Karzai, Al-Maliki) - we have proven we are willing to do so.

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:40pm:

How many Gandalf?

- estimates between 2-13 million in Congo alone during King Leopold's brutal rule

- would you care to hazard a guess as to how many millions of native Indians were slaughtered by European imperialists In South, Central and North America combined? I think we can safely assume it runs into the millions.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #68 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 11:33am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 8:45am:

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:40pm:

Sounds like a quest for slaves to me.

Then you have a reading comprehension problem. Here it is again:

At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea.

Its estimated the Europeans had around 1 million muslim slaves during the 'Barbary' period, which was roughly the same as the number of European slaves held by the Barbary states. In light of this, explain to me FD how your fairy tale about one side representing the evil slavers and one side representing the noble anti-slavers stacks up?

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:40pm:

We are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan right now, for the purpose of establishing democracy.

Rubbish. We are/were occupying Iraq and Afghanistan for the purposes of eliminating the threat of terrorists and attempting to create stability. And if that means propping up anti democracy, and strongmen who directly work against democracy (eg Karzai, Al-Maliki) - we have proven we are willing to do so.

freediver wrote on Oct 24^th, 2017 at 6:40pm:

How many Gandalf?

- estimates between 2-13 million in Congo alone during King Leopold's brutal rule

- would you care to hazard a guess as to how many millions of native Indians were slaughtered by European imperialists In South, Central and North America combined? I think we can safely assume it runs into the millions.

True, G, but we did all that to bring them Freeeeeedom.

We went in to free the slaves, stop the cannibals and stand up for women's rights.

That's FD's case, and we're sticking to it.

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #69 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 12:19pm

Quote:

At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea

.

What do you think would have happened to American merchants if the Americans had not paid this tribute?

If, as you claim, the Barbarians were doing this to end the slavery of Muslims, why did they not demand this instead of tribute?

Quote:

In light of this, explain to me FD how your fairy tale about one side representing the evil slavers and one side representing the noble anti-slavers stacks up?

One side represents the people who brought slavery to an end, both internally and externally. The other side is the group who had to have this imposed on them and to this day are trying to reintroduce institutionalised sex slavery as a mechanism for spreading their religion. Nothing you have said actually contradicts this. Your only complaint appears to be that Muslim slavers were not given the free reign to rape and pillage you seem to think they deserve.

You are throwing out a lot of claims without backing them up, such as:

Quote:

Its estimated the Europeans had around 1 million muslim slaves during the 'Barbary' period, which was roughly the same as the number of European slaves held by the Barbary states.

Quote:

In the process they directly slaughtered or were responsible for the death of more people than at any time in the history of mankind.

Where did you get these claims from Gandalf? Is this the one where the British are at fault for a drought in India?

Quote:

Rubbish. We are/were occupying Iraq and Afghanistan for the purposes of eliminating the threat of terrorists and attempting to create stability. And if that means propping up anti democracy, and strongmen who directly work against democracy (eg Karzai, Al-Maliki) - we have proven we are willing to do so.

So you actually agree we are hanging around to set up democracy, but just disagree with the spin that we are hanging round to set up democracy? Does it bother you that every little step the Muslim world takes towards civilised society is by direct intervention from non-Muslim nations? The Arab spring gave birth to ISIS. The only hope for these Muslims is to be babysat by the very people they blame for all their problems.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #70 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 1:22pm

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 12:19pm:

So you actually agree we are hanging around to set up democracy, but just disagree with the spin that we are hanging round to set up democracy?

Is that what you think G's saying?

But I'm curious. Do you actually agree with the spin that we are hanging round to set up democracy?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #71 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 1:25pm

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 12:19pm:

Does it bother you that every little step the Muslim world takes towards civilised society is by direct intervention from non-Muslim nations?

Now I'm even more curious. Can you name one direct intervention by non-Muslim nations that has led the Muslim world towards civilised society?

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy Reply #72 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 4:51pm Quote: Now I'm even more curious. Can you name one direct intervention by non-Muslim nations that has led the Muslim world towards civilised society? Civilized muslim society? At the back of the cave with all the unicorns.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #73 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 6:33pm

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 12:19pm:

What do you think would have happened to American merchants if the Americans had not paid this tribute?

Possible enslavement. But it doesn't make it a "quest for slaves". The "quest" was quite clearly the payment of tribute. Or as your own source clearly states: At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. It doesn't say "at issue was the Barbary pirates taking of slaves" or similar. It was at most a side issue - and an issue that clearly both sides were equally engaging in.

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 12:19pm:

If, as you claim, the Barbarians were doing this to end the slavery of Muslims

I did not claim that. Read what I said again.

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 12:19pm:

You are throwing out a lot of claims without backing them up, such as

I quoted my source for the first claim. Read it again.

The second claim is stating the bleeding obvious. Shall we add them up FD? How many Indians in North, central and South America died because of European imperialism/greed? Into the millions, no question. How many Africans were slaughtered as a result of the European rape of their resources? Estimated between 2-13 million in Congo alone during just a few short years of King Leopold's reign of terror. And thats barely scratching the surface. We haven't even talked about the rape and pillage of Asia. Can you think of any other period in history of roughly the same time frame in which as many people were slaughtered or died as a direct result of imperialism? I doubt the muslims even came close to that death toll even in 1400 years.

freediver wrote on Oct 25^th, 2017 at 12:19pm:

So you actually agree we are hanging around to set up democracy

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

Again, we are (were) in Iraq and Afghanistan to stop the threat of terrorism, not see the set up democracy. And usually that means supporting and propping up distinctly anti-democratic and corrupt thugs like Karzai and Maliki.

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« Last Edit: Oct 25^th, 2017 at 6:51pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Ahmadis sentenced to death for blasphemy
Reply #74 - Oct 25^th, 2017 at 7:28pm

Quote:

Possible enslavement. But it doesn't make it a "quest for slaves". The "quest" was quite clearly the payment of tribute. Or as your own source clearly states: At issue was the Barbary pirates' demand for tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. It doesn't say "at issue was the Barbary pirates taking of slaves" or similar. It was at most a side issue - and an issue that clearly both sides were equally engaging in.

It doesn't say taking of slaves because the Americans were paying tribute as an alternative to becoming victims of Islamic slavery. Now, see if you can join the dots. Would you say that the paying of tribute was connected to the issue of slavery?

Quote:

I did not claim that. Read what I said again.

This is what you said:

Quote:

ie why not say the muslims were waging war against the west to stop the enslavement of muslims?

Why did you ask such a stupid question Gandalf?

Quote:

I quoted my source for the first claim. Read it again.

Did you quote it in this thread? Or some unrelated thread six months ago?

Quote:

The second claim is stating the bleeding obvious. Shall we add them up FD?

Yes. And while you are at it, how about you offer a bit more detail than waving your arms in the air and blurting rubbish about millions of people? Where did you get this claim from? Are you just parroting what your imam told you? Why are you so afraid to reveal your sources?

Quote:

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

My bad. I misread. So you don't think we are trying to establish democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan? If these countries did end up with functioning democracies, would you say it happened despite western interference, rather than because of it? Would you say the same thing about slavery - that all the western intervention to end slavery was actually doing the opposite, but the Muslim world just happened to stop slavery at the same time?

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