Australian Politics Forum - The Australian Wars

MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #120 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:37am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:36am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 6:11am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2022 at 10:03pm:

The more I see of this the more disgusted I become with the history re-writer fantasists and their lies - and the more I become alienated from your Noble Abos.

Maybe the idiots should have left it well enough alone before the truth came out.

There's something you need to accept - the history you were taught as a child was biased towards the colonists. It whitewashed (pardon the pun) atrocities committed by the British, then Australian, authorities out of non-indigenous memory. Australianism became defined through 'wild colonial boys', a sheep rustling swagman, convicts as happy scamps, salt-of-the-earth non-indigenous farmers, gold prospectors, European entrepreneurs and explorers - anything but native peoples' heroics.

However, here's the thing - this is not about right vs wrong; it's about right vs right and wrongs committed for wrongs done.

In the case of the convicts, as depraved as most of them were, did not come to Australia by choice, and yet were forced to survive by any means necessary.

The free colonists may have come here by choice but, equally, once here, were also forced to survive by any means necessary.

In this struggle for survival, violent conflict between aboriginal peoples and colonists was guaranteed.

Not only that, the harsh truth is that it is irreconcilable. Ethno-chauvinism is innate in humans as is the longevity of cultural memory - as countless world conflicts confirm.

There will never be a time when aboriginal peoples will feel compensated (no matter what reparations are delivered).

Grievance culture can and does span hundreds of years, if not millennia.

Sadly for your argument - and that is a lie - those are the figures from that record written that I posted.
.

Who wrote the records?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #121 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:43am

I don't need to get my mind around anything - I got my mind around the figures and incidents written down and worked out who did what, and as Jordan Peterson said - commenting on something is not the same as approving or disapproving of it. However, to constantly harp on what 'the settlers did to the Abos' without reference to what the Abos did to the settlers is disingenuous to say the least.

It's a level of maturity that some of you can only dream of.

I'll be here to say "I told you so!" when this all goes to hell.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #122 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:45am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:36am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 6:11am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2022 at 10:03pm:

The more I see of this the more disgusted I become with the history re-writer fantasists and their lies - and the more I become alienated from your Noble Abos.

Maybe the idiots should have left it well enough alone before the truth came out.

There's something you need to accept - the history you were taught as a child was biased towards the colonists. It whitewashed (pardon the pun) atrocities committed by the British, then Australian, authorities out of non-indigenous memory. Australianism became defined through 'wild colonial boys', a sheep rustling swagman, convicts as happy scamps, salt-of-the-earth non-indigenous farmers, gold prospectors, European entrepreneurs and explorers - anything but native peoples' heroics.

However, here's the thing - this is not about right vs wrong; it's about right vs right and wrongs committed for wrongs done.

In the case of the convicts, as depraved as most of them were, did not come to Australia by choice, and yet were forced to survive by any means necessary.

The free colonists may have come here by choice but, equally, once here, were also forced to survive by any means necessary.

In this struggle for survival, violent conflict between aboriginal peoples and colonists was guaranteed.

Not only that, the harsh truth is that it is irreconcilable. Ethno-chauvinism is innate in humans as is the longevity of cultural memory - as countless world conflicts confirm.

There will never be a time when aboriginal peoples will feel compensated (no matter what reparations are delivered).

Grievance culture can and does span hundreds of years, if not millennia.

Sadly for your argument - and that is a lie - those are the figures from that record written that I posted.

Clearly you have no problem with Aborigines spearing defenceless women and children.

It has zero to do with ethno-chauvinism - and all to do with the records, and the reality that this ludicrous program is white-washing Aborignal brutality that lead to retaliation, and clearly if I never gave such things a thought until this discussion came along, there was zero 'ethno-chauvinism' involved in my views.Not going to bother with the rest - the Abos didn't have a written history so there can be no comparison.

You remind me of Austrians denying Austrian culpability in Nazi atrocities, despite the evidence.

But you're too old to be undoctrinated.

Of course aboriginal peoples would have committed atrocities - particularly after they were evicted from their lands arising from the notion that they were trespassers in the own lands and thieves of its resources.

As I said, this is about right vs right and wrongs committed for wrongs done.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #123 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:45am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:37am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:36am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 6:11am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2022 at 10:03pm:

The more I see of this the more disgusted I become with the history re-writer fantasists and their lies - and the more I become alienated from your Noble Abos.

Maybe the idiots should have left it well enough alone before the truth came out.

There's something you need to accept - the history you were taught as a child was biased towards the colonists. It whitewashed (pardon the pun) atrocities committed by the British, then Australian, authorities out of non-indigenous memory. Australianism became defined through 'wild colonial boys', a sheep rustling swagman, convicts as happy scamps, salt-of-the-earth non-indigenous farmers, gold prospectors, European entrepreneurs and explorers - anything but native peoples' heroics.

However, here's the thing - this is not about right vs wrong; it's about right vs right and wrongs committed for wrongs done.

In the case of the convicts, as depraved as most of them were, did not come to Australia by choice, and yet were forced to survive by any means necessary.

The free colonists may have come here by choice but, equally, once here, were also forced to survive by any means necessary.

In this struggle for survival, violent conflict between aboriginal peoples and colonists was guaranteed.

Not only that, the harsh truth is that it is irreconcilable. Ethno-chauvinism is innate in humans as is the longevity of cultural memory - as countless world conflicts confirm.

There will never be a time when aboriginal peoples will feel compensated (no matter what reparations are delivered).

Grievance culture can and does span hundreds of years, if not millennia.

Sadly for your argument - and that is a lie - those are the figures from that record written that I posted.
.

Who wrote the records?

As I said - are you prepared to say that every record is just a lie? And as I laid out earlier, since the verbal records of the Cheeses say the same thing about the actual Appin incident, apart from saying that there was no call to surrender, why would any of the others be any different?

If there was no intent or knowledge of ongoing conflict, why did that group seek to hide itself?

Can you PROVE that any actual records are false?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #124 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:49am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:43am:

I don't need to get my mind around anything - I got my mind around the figures and incidents written down and worked out who did what, and as Jordan Peterson said - commenting on something is not the same as approving or disapproving of it. However, to constantly harp on what 'the settlers did to the Abos' without reference to what the Abos did to the settlers is disingenuous to say the least.

It's a level of maturity that some of you can only dream of.

I'll be here to say "I told you so!" when this all goes to hell.

To view the wrongs that aboriginal peoples could have inflicted on colonists as being equal in capacity and extent is a testament to your age and indoctrination.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #125 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:57am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:45am:

Can you PROVE that any actual records are false?

Given the writers of those records of conflicts between aboriginals and colonists were from the latter, they were not impartial observers.

Certainly, the horror stories of the hell that was (particularly) the NSW colony did not escape the knowledge of NZ settlers.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #126 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:57am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:49am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:43am:

I don't need to get my mind around anything - I got my mind around the figures and incidents written down and worked out who did what, and as Jordan Peterson said - commenting on something is not the same as approving or disapproving of it. However, to constantly harp on what 'the settlers did to the Abos' without reference to what the Abos did to the settlers is disingenuous to say the least.

It's a level of maturity that some of you can only dream of.

I'll be here to say "I told you so!" when this all goes to hell.

To view the wrongs that aboriginal peoples could have inflicted on colonists as being equal in capacity and extent is a testament to your age and indoctrination.

Well - those are the fig-yures, Major Kong.

'could have inflicted' - white-washing again... 'equal in capacity' - well - I figure at least fourteen Whites from sneak attacks including several women and no shown number of children, meaning more than fourteen all told, compares pretty well with nineteen Abo combatants killed.

Did the Abos take any prisoners? Or did they just spear defenceless women and children? Clearly the 'settlers' did or that woman would not be here to talk about here greatwhatever-grandma being taken away and taught civilisation so that her descendant could wear wedding rings, wear clothes, drive a car, eat well, and live in a nice house while speaking on national television .......

Clearly everything you say is a testament to your age and indoctrination.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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AusGeoff

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #127 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:04am

In my opinion it's a waste of brainpower attempting to conflate what
happened 240 years ago as regards white-aboriginal interactions with
those of today. Social norms have changed enormously in that time.
So it was only natural that the First Fleet crew saw the aborigines as
primitive, dangerous killers.

Also, numerous of the transported "convicts" were not murderers or rapists.
John Hudson was sentenced to transportation at age nine for breaking and
entering. Most had committed nonviolent offenses, mainly theft. Among the
wide range of items they were convicted of stealing were livestock, tea,
clothes, bedding, watches, mugs, and handkerchiefs. They were most
commonly sentenced to seven years of exile in Australia.

The First Fleet carried about 1,500 people. Only half of them—about 775—
were convicts. The rest were free settlers or crew.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #128 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:07am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:32am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 6:47am:

Gnads wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2022 at 8:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2022 at 8:19am:

Frank wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2022 at 8:11pm:

It is a truth that no matter how many treaties are signed, or how many truth commissions are held, the intention is not to reconcile but rather to reinforce a permanent sense of guilt in mainstream Australians. And it is a truth that in the wretched Indigenous settlements little will change as a result.

Agreed; something else is required to fix that wretchedness.

The CDEP was a start, unfortunately cancelled by neoliberal market ideologues who expect people to lift themselves out of the generational poverty and social dysfunction into which they sank, in those settlements.

Quote:

But you know what isn’t the truth? Claiming whitey is the source of all Indigenous misery.

Of course there was plenty of misery on the First Fleet also, and still plenty of economic hardship among many non-blacks in Oz; misery has personal as well as external causes - see how your extreme 'personal responsibility' mantra leads you astray?

Quote:

Reconcile that progs
As always, you are all carried away by idiotic ideology.

addressed above; your conservative, extreme 'personal responsibilty' mantra has much to answer for the economic dysfunction (unemployment, homelessnes) in modern times, including in black communities.

Do you have anything besides the scrapped CDEP to harp on about?

Yes: the gap...which must be eradicated, one way or another.

Simply ahouting 'personal responsibility' is NOT going to close the gap.

And neither is a voice or a treaty.

You can lead an Abo to a watering hole but you can't make him drink

Yes you can; drunkenness and hence incarceration were markedly reduced when the CDEP was introduced and readily taken up in black communities.

Quote:

How do you propose to get them to do that?

Addressed above.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #129 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:10am

Anyone who looks dispassionately and without rose coloured one way glasses at these incidents can see clearly that they were in no way 'genocidal' moves, but were, rather, retaliatory moves against murderers, and as I said, it is only when such things come up and people of good will actually look at the incidents etc, that they see the real truth.

The truth overall is seen by the fact that countless Aboriginals remained in the Sydney area and did reasonably well, a reality proven by their ability to lay claim to Goat Island, the most expensive piece of real estate in Sydney Harbour. If those who were handed this national park are not locals... why was it handed to them at all?

Every argument put forward by the revisionists falls under its own lack of weight.

Up until actually looking at these things, I accepted that at times past there had been some dire things done to Abos, some of them apparently without any real reason, but a dispassionate review of what is recorded gives a different picture in many such incidents.

So I will ask you - if all these learned professors of history were true historians - what sources did they use to arrive at the conclusion that the records of the time must all be false, and that, by contrast, verbal (Chinese Whispers) histories 100% correct, even when clearly totally biased one way?

I'll bet that if you go and have a chat with some person who's just spent twenty year in prison, their story will not be the same as the official one.... Cool

Come back, good buddies...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #130 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:11am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:57am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:49am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:43am:

I don't need to get my mind around anything - I got my mind around the figures and incidents written down and worked out who did what, and as Jordan Peterson said - commenting on something is not the same as approving or disapproving of it. However, to constantly harp on what 'the settlers did to the Abos' without reference to what the Abos did to the settlers is disingenuous to say the least.

It's a level of maturity that some of you can only dream of.

I'll be here to say "I told you so!" when this all goes to hell.

To view the wrongs that aboriginal peoples could have inflicted on colonists as being equal in capacity and extent is a testament to your age and indoctrination.

Well - those are the fig-yures, Major Kong.

'could have inflicted' - white-washing again... 'equal in capacity' - well - I figure at least fourteen Whites from sneak attacks including several women and no shown number of children, meaning more than fourteen all told, compares pretty well with nineteen Abo combatants killed.

Did the Abos take any prisoners? Or did they just spear defenceless women and children? Clearly the 'settlers' did or that woman would not be here to talk about here greatwhatever-grandma being taken away and taught civilisation so that her descendant could wear wedding rings, wear clothes, drive a car, eat well, and live in a nice house while speaking on national television .......

Clearly everything you say is a testament to your age and indoctrination.

Spears vs guns - They say don't take a knife to a gunfight.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #131 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:12am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:57am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 10:45am:

Can you PROVE that any actual records are false?

Given the writers of those records of conflicts between aboriginals and colonists were from the latter, they were not impartial observers.

Certainly, the horror stories of the hell that was (particularly) the NSW colony did not escape the knowledge of NZ settlers.

To be fair, white men WERE hanged according to law in early NSW (1830's iirc) for murdering blacks.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #132 - Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:14am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:07am: