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The Australian Wars - Culture is Life (Read 9491 times)
MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #135 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:24am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:10am:
Anyone who looks dispassionately and without rose coloured one way glasses at these incidents can see clearly that they were in no way 'genocidal' moves, but were, rather, retaliatory moves against murderers, and as I said, it is only when such things come up and people of good will actually look at the incidents etc, that they see the real truth.


So, land dispossession can be discounted as a motivator for aboriginal retaliation.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #136 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:27am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:14am:
So he'll only drink Great Northern if you buy it for him? 


Wrong -  as is always the case with your extremist personal responsibility' delusion.

Blacks take to grog when they are unemployed on poverty-level 'sit-down money'. 

Quote:
Could it be because of refusal to accept 'mainstream' training and education alongside everyone else - (gasps) - equally?


Training and education can't be imposed on dysfunctional communities, you have to fix the dysfunction first.

Quote:
So it was just a question of 'free money or I don't play!'....


The CDEP offered appropriate work - as practically as possible - in the communitites. Two birds with one stone: employment and a living wage.

Quote:
Another argument that falls flat of it own lack of support for the hot air inside it.   Cool  Roll Eyes  Cheesy


Your extremist 'personal responsibility' delusion - combined with your neoliberal "market forces" ideology  -  f**ks you every time.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #137 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:34am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:27am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:14am:
So he'll only drink Great Northern if you buy it for him? 


Wrong -  as is always the case with your extremist personal responsibility' delusion.

Blacks take to grog when they are unemployed on poverty-level 'sit-down money'. 

Quote:
Could it be because of refusal to accept 'mainstream' training and education alongside everyone else - (gasps) - equally?


Training and education can't be imposed on dysfunctional communities, you have to fix the dysfunction first.

Quote:
So it was just a question of 'free money or I don't play!'....


The CDEP offered appropriate work - as practically as possible - in the communitites. Two birds with one stone: employment and a living wage.

[quorte]Another argument that falls flat of it own lack of support for the hot air inside it.   Cool  Roll Eyes  Cheesy


Your extremist 'personal responsibilty' delusion - combined with your neoliberal "market forces" ideology  -  f**ks you every time.
[/quote]

Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin  So you say that saying people should take personal responsibility it extremist now?  Good joke... so Big Daddy in the Government will fix everything, but Biog Daddy also genocided the Cheeses and causes all their problems? *shakes head in disbelief*

Again - where was the skills base that persisted to the benefit of the communities - dried up the moment the money dried up.  Make-work and an excuse to hand out money and say they're not on the dole and the government is doing something.

"My" 'neoliberal market forces ideology'?  What rock have you been hiding under all your life?

You must be a school kid.

Offer some valid solutions, not endless hyperbole and repetition.

Nah then - what about that absurd assertion that the land was 'cleared' of Cheeses, and yet they were there to claim Goat Island?  What about those dire Cheese crimes of murdering innocent women and children?

Just plain old genocide?

Here's a piccie from 1830 after the land was 'cleared' of them... just another falsehood, you say?

...
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #138 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:47am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:24am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:10am:
Anyone who looks dispassionately and without rose coloured one way glasses at these incidents can see clearly that they were in no way 'genocidal' moves, but were, rather, retaliatory moves against murderers, and as I said, it is only when such things come up and people of good will actually look at the incidents etc, that they see the real truth.


So, land dispossession can be discounted as a motivator for aboriginal retaliation.


So - what is the motivator for White retaliation?  Land dispossession is sufficient justification for the murder of innocent women and children?

So if someone's land is resumed by government to build a highway, that someone is entitled to kill the contractors and their wives and children?

Their concept of land ownership was different - they had plenty to share but their tribal 'culture' prevented them from sharing even with their neighbours - they felt they owned all they could see simply by looking at it - that old Imperial idea long dead in the West.  It was overtaken then - and is long gone now - hence no more land claims.

They lost - get used to it.

Here's some civilised ones having a go at it, kinda reminds you of some places today, eh?

...

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« Last Edit: Sep 24th, 2022 at 12:05pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #139 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 12:15pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:47am:
So - what is the motivator for White retaliation?  Land dispossession is sufficient justification for the murder of innocent women and children?


Land dispossession is the primary motivator for killings of all kinds - and war.

There isn't a human culture that has ever existed whose inhabitants have not killed indiscriminately to defend their territory.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #140 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 12:16pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:47am:
Here's some civilised ones having a go at it, kinda reminds you of some places today, eh?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5ccc16a2f8135a3129ad6904/157195486...


Who drew that, do you think? An aboriginal or a colonist?

British artists were skilled at making the Irish look like white apes.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #141 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:09pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 12:16pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:47am:
Here's some civilised ones having a go at it, kinda reminds you of some places today, eh?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5ccc16a2f8135a3129ad6904/157195486...


Who drew that, do you think? An aboriginal or a colonist?

British artists were skilled at making the Irish look like white apes.


Probably posed like a lot of newsie photos are.  They'd have a vested (sic) interest in making the colonies look exotic and interesting - here are some of my pet Blacks playing in the yard .... ho, ho, ho... come to the colonies and you can see such sights yourself!!

I can't seriously imagine the artist as a young woman standing on the side of a battle drawing with pencils and crayons as the fighting goes along...

"Hold that spear thrust - let me get it just right there!  Good fellow!  Now just hold it for one minute ...... don't move, either of you!"

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #142 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:12pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 12:15pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:47am:
So - what is the motivator for White retaliation?  Land dispossession is sufficient justification for the murder of innocent women and children?


Land dispossession is the primary motivator for killings of all kinds - and war.

There isn't a human culture that has ever existed whose inhabitants have not killed indiscriminately to defend their territory.


True - and nobody is saying it was not a reason - though I balk at 'justification' for the murder of innocents - but look at Ukraine. Clearly any 'genocidal' intentions were on the part of the Indigenous determined to throw Whartey back into the sea.... Whartey took many of them into the fold and (gasps) civilised them... you may dispute the methods etc, but the reality was not genocide.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #143 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:14pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:34am:
So you say that saying people should take personal responsibility it extremist now?


No, I'm saying YOUR extremist and  unbalanced  'personal responsibility' delusion  f**ks YOU; external causes always have consequences for people's achievements in life, as well as and regardless of abilities re personal responsibility which of course is also required for successful living. 

Quote:
"My" 'neoliberal market' forces ideology'?  What rock have you been hiding under all your life?


Play on words? The neoliberal 'market forces' ideology which you claim MUST alone determine wages outcomes; it's mainstream economic crap which doesn't excuse you one bit for repeating it. 

Quote:
Nah then - what about that absurd assertion that the land was 'cleared' of Cheeses,


Well.... I suppose John Macarthur's sheep farmlands WERE cleared of blacks......

Quote:
and yet they were there to claim Goat Island?  What about those dire Cheese crimes of murdering innocent women and children?

Just plain old genocide?


I'll let Meister sort you out with all that.

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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #144 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:21pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:09pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 12:16pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:47am:
Here's some civilised ones having a go at it, kinda reminds you of some places today, eh?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5ccc16a2f8135a3129ad6904/157195486...


Who drew that, do you think? An aboriginal or a colonist?

British artists were skilled at making the Irish look like white apes.


Probably posed like a lot of newsie photos are.  They'd have a vested (sic) interest in making the colonies look exotic and interesting - here are some of my pet Blacks playing in the yard .... ho, ho, ho... come to the colonies and you can see such sights yourself!!

I can't seriously imagine the artist as a young woman standing on the side of a battle drawing with pencils and crayons as the fighting goes along...

"Hold that spear thrust - let me get it just right there!  Good fellow!  Now just hold it for one minute ...... don't move, either of you!"


Was it even a live scene, or just something from the wild imagination of a colonial artist?

It looks no different to how the British portrayed the Irish, just replace the black faces with white ape-like ones and you'd have an image of what the British thought of the Irish.

There were celebrations in Ireland at the news of the Queen's death.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #145 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:22pm
 
P.S.  do you imagine the passing of those murdered White women was easy?  Why are such things not mentioned, and only the armed assaults on Cheese groups at the waterhole depicted etc?

One-sided history is not history.... and there is no concept of balance.... one can only arrive at an approximation of the truth through research and through applying standards of evaluation of sources.

Had an argument with a Montyophile who claimed that Market Garden was Ike's plan - not Monty's - so Monty wasn't responsible for a monumental disaster.  EVERY source says that Monty came up with the idea on false assumptions, and nagged Ike until he got limited approval, which he then expanded in a Patton 'rock soup' way into a major offensive.

You can re-read and re-write history - but you must in the end rely on sources that can be verified and which stand up to the 'pub test'.  That woman crying over her greatwhatever-grandma being carried off into civilisation does not stand the pub test, since clearly she did well out of that, and yet the emotion rules the discussion and not the realities.

How many of my female ancestors, and yours, do you imagine were 'stolen' and ended up in some bloke's breeding chain? How many of my Irish ancestors suffered dispossession by Cromwell?  How many of my German Jewish ancestors were persecuted and even killed?  How many Scottish etc were beaten into the ground so their land could be taken?

Should I now be weeping about it and saying that means I am savagely disadvantaged here and now today?

Do I now get to claim all those ancestral lands?
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #146 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:22pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:12pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 12:15pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 11:47am:
So - what is the motivator for White retaliation?  Land dispossession is sufficient justification for the murder of innocent women and children?


Land dispossession is the primary motivator for killings of all kinds - and war.

There isn't a human culture that has ever existed whose inhabitants have not killed indiscriminately to defend their territory.


True - and nobody is saying it was not a reason - though I balk at 'justification' for the murder of innocents - but look at Ukraine. Clearly any 'genocidal' intentions were on the part of the Indigenous determined to throw Whartey back into the sea.... Whartey took many of them into the fold and (gasps) civilised them... you may dispute the methods etc, but the reality was not genocide.

And who gave the colonists possession of the land? Other colonists?
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #147 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:29pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:22pm:
How many of my female ancestors, and yours, do you imagine were 'stolen' and ended up in some bloke's breeding chain? How many of my Irish ancestors suffered dispossession by Cromwell?  How many of my German Jewish ancestors were persecuted and even killed?  How many Scottish etc were beaten into the ground so their land could be taken?

Should I now be weeping about it and saying that means I am savagely disadvantaged here and now today?

Do I now get to claim all those ancestral lands?

Did you experience life as an Irishman, Scotsman, German-Jew or Australian? What is your primary cultural identity?
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #148 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:31pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:29pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:22pm:
How many of my female ancestors, and yours, do you imagine were 'stolen' and ended up in some bloke's breeding chain? How many of my Irish ancestors suffered dispossession by Cromwell?  How many of my German Jewish ancestors were persecuted and even killed?  How many Scottish etc were beaten into the ground so their land could be taken?

Should I now be weeping about it and saying that means I am savagely disadvantaged here and now today?

Do I now get to claim all those ancestral lands?

Did you experience life as an Irishman, Scotsman, German-Jewish or Australian? What is your primary cultural identity?


Australian - same as the Cheeses or they forfeit all benefits and rights - and very poor upbringing - many Cheeses had it far better, let me tell you.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #149 - Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:34pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24th, 2022 at 1:22pm:
How many of my Irish ancestors suffered dispossession by Cromwell? 

A childhood friend of mine was Irish by descent (parents Irish) and he would recount lurid tales of Cromwell pitchforking babies.

Cultural memory when shackled to cultural identity is forever.
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