Australian Politics Forum - The Australian Wars

MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #180 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:37am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 10:58am:

Interestingly today, some academics are grappling with the problem of maintaining a 'living' black culture, by adopting the concept of black ownership of land which they are free to develop in their own way thereby preserving the culture.

I think that's madness, as well as contradictory; ownership of land is NOT part of black culture.

A more practical idea, to account for black dispossession, would be government housing for blacks (and whites) who cannot access the private housing market; housing ownership rates in Oz are falling, will soon drop below 50%.

Judging by that, I'm guessing you're punching 75 in the face.

A black culture? You'd be laughed out of Africa, Polynesia, Melanesia, Micronesia and all of Asia with that little nugget of 50s-style rhetoric; as you would be among aboriginal peoples in Australia.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #181 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:38am

Frank wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:26am:

Aboriginal relation to the land is not in any way like 'land right's or ownership. It is radically different to ownership, in fact. But since neither contemporary urban Aborigines nor non-Aborigines can comprehend or reproduce or articulate that radically different relationship, and because the entire contemporary legal, philosophical, political system is deaf and blind to it, those ancient relationships are expressed in concepts and language that misses the point.

"The Australian people of the pre-conquest era did not avoid agriculture because they didn’t know how plants grow. The proposition would be absurd, given they were acute observers of the plants around them and the plants’ life cycles. Instead, they regarded the fertility and the reproductive spark that maintained plant populations via seeds to be spiritual, not a matter of secular human technology."

Aboriginal law, similarly, is nothing like Western law. While there is continuity between, say, Greco-Roman antiquity and contemporary Western concepts, law, etc, there is nothing connecting ancient Aboriginal ways of seeing the world and our contemporary way of seeing, regardless of Aboriginality or otherwise.

There was an irreversible paradigm shift between two radically incompatible ways of seeing and being when the British arrived.

Well said.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #182 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:38am

Frank wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:26am:

Aboriginal relation to the land is not in any way like 'land right's or ownership. It is radically different to ownership, in fact. But since neither contemporary urban Aborigines nor non-Aborigines can comprehend or reproduce or articulate that radically different relationship, and because the entire contemporary legal, philosophical, political system is deaf and blind to it, those ancient relationships are expressed in concepts and language that misses the point.

"The Australian people of the pre-conquest era did not avoid agriculture because they didn’t know how plants grow. The proposition would be absurd, given they were acute observers of the plants around them and the plants’ life cycles. Instead, they regarded the fertility and the reproductive spark that maintained plant populations via seeds to be spiritual, not a matter of secular human technology."

Aboriginal law, similarly, is nothing like Western law. While there is continuity between, say, Greco-Roman antiquity and contemporary Western concepts, law, etc, there is nothing connecting ancient Aboriginal ways of seeing the world and our contemporary way of seeing, regardless of Aboriginality or otherwise.

There was an irreversible paradigm shift between two radically incompatible ways of seeing and being when the British arrived.

Are you aboriginal?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #183 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:52am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:37am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 10:58am:

Interestingly today, some academics are grappling with the problem of maintaining a 'living' black culture, by adopting the concept of black ownership of land which they are free to develop in their own way thereby preserving the culture.

I think that's madness, as well as contradictory; ownership of land is NOT part of black culture.

A more practical idea, to account for black dispossession, would be government housing for blacks (and whites) who cannot access the private housing market; housing ownership rates in Oz are falling, will soon drop below 50%.

Judging by that, I'm guessing you're punching 75 in the face.

A black culture? You'd be laughed out of Africa, Polynesia, Melanesia, Micronesia and all of Asia with that little nugget of 50s-style rhetoric; as you would be among aboriginal peoples in Australia.

Care to elucidate....

So how does a "living black culture" (an anachronism if we are talikng about a hunter-gatherer culture) get preserved in the modern world.

By adopting communist ownership of land by the state?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #184 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:56am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:52am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:37am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 10:58am:

Interestingly today, some academics are grappling with the problem of maintaining a 'living' black culture, by adopting the concept of black ownership of land which they are free to develop in their own way thereby preserving the culture.

I think that's madness, as well as contradictory; ownership of land is NOT part of black culture.

A more practical idea, to account for black dispossession, would be government housing for blacks (and whites) who cannot access the private housing market; housing ownership rates in Oz are falling, will soon drop below 50%.

Judging by that, I'm guessing you're punching 75 in the face.

A black culture? You'd be laughed out of Africa, Polynesia, Melanesia, Micronesia and all of Asia with that little nugget of 50s-style rhetoric; as you would be among aboriginal peoples in Australia.

Care to elucidate....

So how does a "living black culture" (an anachronism if we are talikng about a hunter-gatherer culture) get preserved in the modern world.

Can you elucidate on black culture, then maybe white culture - just in case there are, say, Italians and Slavs reading this?

They might want to be educated on how it's all just white culture.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #185 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 12:07pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:56am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:52am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 11:37am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 10:58am:

Interestingly today, some academics are grappling with the problem of maintaining a 'living' black culture, by adopting the concept of black ownership of land which they are free to develop in their own way thereby preserving the culture.

I think that's madness, as well as contradictory; ownership of land is NOT part of black culture.

A more practical idea, to account for black dispossession, would be government housing for blacks (and whites) who cannot access the private housing market; housing ownership rates in Oz are falling, will soon drop below 50%.

Judging by that, I'm guessing you're punching 75 in the face.

A black culture? You'd be laughed out of Africa, Polynesia, Melanesia, Micronesia and all of Asia with that little nugget of 50s-style rhetoric; as you would be among aboriginal peoples in Australia.

Care to elucidate....

So how does a "living black culture" (an anachronism if we are talikng about a hunter-gatherer culture) get preserved in the modern world.

Can you elucidate on black culture, then maybe white culture - just in case there are, say, Italians and Slavs reading this?

They might want to be educated on how it's all just white culture.

You failed to answer my question (....too difficult?) , preferring to ask yours instead.

Slavs and Italians left the hunter-gather culture behind millenia ago.

Now there's nothing wrong with preserving ancient costumes, song, and dance, but the economic basis of all culture today must be relevent or practicable in today's global world....

Also, many black cultures up until colonization (like all human cultures before c.6 millenia ago) had no writing...

So I ask again, how do you ensure the survival of a "living black culture", other than through preserving aspects of the culture like art and (non-written....) language ?

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« Last Edit: Sep 25^th, 2022 at 12:20pm by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #186 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 12:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

You failed to answer my question (....too difficult?) , preferring to ask yours instead.

Slavs and Italians left the hunter-gather culture behind millenia ago.

Now there's nothing wrong with preserving ancient costumes, song, and dance, but the economic basis of all culture today must be relevent or practicable in today's global world....

Also, many black cultures up until colonization (like all human cultures before c.6 millenia ago) had no writing...

So I ask again, how do you ensure the survival of a "living black culture", other than through preserving aspects of the culture like art and (non-written....) language ?

So black culture to you is hunter-gatherer culture.

Any differences in cultures between say, south-western Aboriginal cultures and north-western ones?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #187 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 1:34pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 12:25pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

You failed to answer my question (....too difficult?) , preferring to ask yours instead.

Slavs and Italians left the hunter-gather culture behind millenia ago.

Now there's nothing wrong with preserving ancient costumes, song, and dance, but the economic basis of all culture today must be relevent or practicable in today's global world....

Also, many black cultures up until colonization (like all human cultures before c.6 millenia ago) had no writing...

So I ask again, how do you ensure the survival of a "living black culture", other than through preserving aspects of the culture like art and (non-written....) language ?

So black culture to you is hunter-gatherer culture.

Specifically, black culture in Oz in 1788.

How do you perserve that culture - or what aspects of it - into the modern world.

Quote:

Any differences in cultures between say, south-western Aboriginal cultures and north-western ones?

No doubt, the different climate would have ensured a difference; but you are confusing "the black culture" of 1788 with the surviving black culture of now (whatever it is).

Given that reality, it's impossible to preserve a "living black culture" in the modern era, without defining what aspects of the original culture are defunct and which are not.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #188 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 1:45pm

Well - the CEDP will fix all that.........

What was Black Culture in 1788? Anybody? Bit of fishing, hunting, fighting, yabbying, oystering, breeding, moving where the mood of the requirements took you... bit of bluing with the neighbouring tribes over your land boundaries... whatever your spears could guarantee you... bloody imperialism at its very worst, that was.....

Ummm .... that's a hard one..... I love all the generalisations and assumptions that go into these discussions, along with the tiniest element of analytical thought and actually looking at things and thinking about them....

Now - about this culture....... what was it exactly? Can you feel the mighty chasm opening beneath your feet once again, all you zealots?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #189 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 3:01pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 1:45pm:

Well - the CEDP will fix all that.........

What was Black Culture in 1788? Anybody? Bit of fishing, hunting, fighting, yabbying, oystering, breeding, moving where the mood of the requirements took you... bit of bluing with the neighbouring tribes over your land boundaries... whatever your spears could guarantee you... bloody imperialism at its very worst, that was.....

Ummm .... that's a hard one..... I love all the generalisations and assumptions that go into these discussions, along with the tiniest element of analytical thought and actually looking at things and thinking about them....

Now - about this culture....... what was it exactly? Can you feel the mighty chasm opening beneath your feet once again, all you zealots?

It was a long-lived, illiterate hunter-gatherer culture with its own oral mythologies, oral tribal laws, and artistic expressions.

Those oral mythologies and artistic expressons have survived into our time, but the law and economic base of the hunter-gatherer culture has not survived, nor can it.

That's where the CDEP comes in, to close the gap......

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Frank

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #190 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 3:57pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 10:58am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:31pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:27pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:24am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:10am:

Anyone who looks dispassionately and without rose coloured one way glasses at these incidents can see clearly that they were in no way 'genocidal' moves, but were, rather, retaliatory moves against murderers, and as I said, it is only when such things come up and people of good will actually look at the incidents etc, that they see the real truth.

So, land dispossession can be discounted as a motivator for aboriginal retaliation.

You cannot be disposed of anything you don't own.

You can be dispossessed of land you occupy by ancient custom.

Whose ancient custom?

Gnads made a confused statement about "ownership" of land.

I just pointed out 'history's' custom: 6OK years ago, hunter-gatherers entered Oz and occupied the land (which really had been 'terra nullius'...).

Interestingly today, some academics are grappling with the problem of maintaining a 'living' black culture, by adopting the concept of black ownership of land which they are free to develop in their own way thereby preserving the culture.

I think that's madness, as well as contradictory; ownership of land is NOT part of black culture.

A more practical idea, to account for black dispossession, would be government housing for blacks (and whites) who cannot access the private housing market; housing ownership rates in Oz are falling, will soon drop below 50%.

(Meanwhile , I'm pleased to see the CCP has finally taken control of the chaotic free-market housing outcomes in China, by reaffirming houses are for living in, not private investment; the CCP is guaranteeing funds to ensure completion of housing already paid for, and to ensure stabilization of Evergrande's debt, thus avoiding the housing crash expected by Western economists].

Yeah, coz government is a familiar concept, unlike land ownership.... Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #191 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 4:10pm

Frank wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 3:57pm:

Yeah, coz government is a familiar concept, unlike land ownership.... Roll Eyes

still .....we all need houses, not land, to live in....and ownership of land and housing is a secondary consideration, especially as neoliberal markets are pricing more and more people out of the housing market.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #192 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 7:55pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 3:01pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 1:45pm:

Well - the CEDP will fix all that.........

What was Black Culture in 1788? Anybody? Bit of fishing, hunting, fighting, yabbying, oystering, breeding, moving where the mood of the requirements took you... bit of bluing with the neighbouring tribes over your land boundaries... whatever your spears could guarantee you... bloody imperialism at its very worst, that was.....

Ummm .... that's a hard one..... I love all the generalisations and assumptions that go into these discussions, along with the tiniest element of analytical thought and actually looking at things and thinking about them....

Now - about this culture....... what was it exactly? Can you feel the mighty chasm opening beneath your feet once again, all you zealots?

It was a long-lived, illiterate hunter-gatherer culture with its own oral mythologies, oral tribal laws, and artistic expressions.

Those oral mythologies and artistic expressons have survived into our time, but the law and economic base of the hunter-gatherer culture has not survived, nor can it.

That's where the CDEP comes in, to close the gap......

Ah - so that now the culture has changed, they will have no trouble getting by in a more orderly and organiser society...

Ship 'em all off to re-education camp and train them to do something... count how much it has cost - then turn 'em loose to make a living on their own without any further support... out their learned skills to use and fix their communities while earning from doing so.

That's the productive way.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #193 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 7:56pm

Reprise - takes another bow:-

Well - I guess they didn't learn their lesson at Appin all those years ago after running around and murdering more than sixteen Whites, including women and children, in their ethnic cleansing/genocide against Whites ... and when Whartey cunningly snuck up on them and caught them napping while in hiding and took down fourteen armed combatants in a melee in the dark with a few not so innocent bystanders included.

When you run with the wild dogs killing sheep - you die with the wild dogs....

Now they run around murdering society by proxy while feeding off it .... and nobody mounts an operation against them... instead all the spiritually, morally and cerebrally blind, mentally lame and halt, and drug-addled on New City Hall Righteousness (NCHR) actually change history to make it into something it never was.

They stand at the gates (gatekeepers), lumping people (as the generationophobes do) into neat little boxes in their own minds, like Dr Mengele - and determine on a purely arbitrary basis which facts and reports and histories will be sent to work for the cause and which will go to the Social Scientist gas chambers...

Blacks raping and murdering women and children - GOOD! Whites killing combatants and taking children into protection - BAD!

Seriously - this country has become very, very sick.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Brian Ross

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Re: The professionally offended are offended
Reply #194 - Sep 25^th, 2022 at 9:02pm

It appears that the title of the thread should be changed. Why? Because the professionally offended are offended by the very idea that an alternative version of history is perceived by some people. The professionally offended appear unwilling to accept that historical revision looks at events with fresh eyes and new perceptions. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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