Australian Politics Forum - Who are they after in ABC ?

greggerypeccary

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #75 - Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:09pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:08pm:

lee wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 4:40pm:

A child, hidden in blankets, in a fire fight, dies from a stray bullet and it is murder?

If it was your child, what would you call it?

Date: 27/3/2011

Location: Sah Zafar, Chora Valley

Description: Australian and Afghan troops conducting a ‘cordon and callout operation’ were sent to a location where it was hoped they would capture a high-value Taliban target. As they moved along a road they were shot at from a concealed area. The Australians returned fire and immediately moved up to the location from where the shots originated. There they found a dead man and a fatally injured child.

More for the apologists:

Date: 28/2/2013

Location: Char Chineh District, Uruzgan Province

Description: Australian and Afghan troops were conducting a sweep through a remote region. The Australians reportedly picked up radio chatter from insurgents indicating an “imminent threat”, and pinpointed two insurgents 1.3 kilometres away from a checkpoint they had set up. They called in a helicopter strike, but then saw the helicopter’s fire hit an area a few hundred metres from where they believed the insurgents were. They halted the air strike and went to where the shots had hit, finding two dead Afghan boys and three dead donkeys.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16441 Gender:	Re: Who are they after in ABC ? Reply #76 - Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:28pm greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:08pm: If it was your child, what would you call it? It doesn't matter what I would call it. Murder is premeditated. "Unlawful killing of a human with malice aforethought"
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 131605 Gender:	Re: Who are they after in ABC ? Reply #77 - Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:30pm lee wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:28pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:08pm: If it was your child, what would you call it? It doesn't matter what I would call it. Murder is premeditated. So, capital punishment is murder.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16441 Gender:	Re: Who are they after in ABC ? Reply #78 - Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:35pm greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:30pm: So, capital punishment is murder. If you want. It saves the government heaps. Although of course that ignores - "Unlawful killing of a human with malice aforethought"
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #79 - Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:42pm

lee wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:35pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:30pm:

So, capital punishment is murder.

If you want.

It saves the government heaps.

Nope.

I've read several reports on the subject.

Most, if not all, say that the death penalty costs more.

"Consequently, while cost is not the only factor to be considered, when it comes down to an argument regarding the benefits of the death penalty to society, the argument that it is cheaper to execute someone than keep them alive in prison for the rest of their lives is utterly wrong."

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lee

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #80 - Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:49pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:42pm:

"Consequently, while cost is not the only factor to be considered, when it comes down to an argument regarding the benefits of the death penalty to society, the argument that it is cheaper to execute someone than keep them alive in prison for the rest of their lives is utterly wrong."

Please give the cost breakdown of how it is cheaper. One off execution v lifelong incarceration costs. Meals, Accommodation, Medical.

But you are getting further away from your "murder of children".

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #81 - Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:55pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 4:17pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 4:07pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 4:07pm:

Fuzzball wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 3:56pm:

The so called journalists and their informants et al who have divulged classified operational information about Australian troops in Afghanistan and possibly other theatres of conflict where they serve.

This in NOT freedom of the press, it is treason.

Lol

And what about the children that were murdered by our troops?

when was that?

Between 2009-2013, during which special forces troops shot dead insurgents along with unarmed men and children.

Blame the people in the Liberal party and Labor Party who sent them there. I wouldn't of sent them. I have never given a farc about Afghanistan.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #82 - Jun 7^th, 2019 at 3:35am

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 4:22pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 4:20pm:

Read summaries of 10 cases between 2009-2013 in which special forces troops shot dead insurgents, but also unarmed men and children.

Date: 26/9/2013

Location: Spin Kecha village, north west Uruzgan Province

Description: While searching a compound as part of an operation targeting a high value Taliban target, special forces soldiers saw a man, later named as Bismillah Azadi, allegedly pointing a pistol at them. Bismillah was shot and killed by two special forces soldiers, but they were unaware of a child hidden in blankets near him. The child was later discovered with a single gunshot wound to the abdomen and within five minutes was pronounced dead. A payment to the child’s family of $US1,500 was made.

Manslaughter - no intent.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #83 - Jun 7^th, 2019 at 7:22am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 3:35am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 4:22pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 4:20pm:

Read summaries of 10 cases between 2009-2013 in which special forces troops shot dead insurgents, but also unarmed men and children.

Date: 26/9/2013

Location: Spin Kecha village, north west Uruzgan Province

Description: While searching a compound as part of an operation targeting a high value Taliban target, special forces soldiers saw a man, later named as Bismillah Azadi, allegedly pointing a pistol at them. Bismillah was shot and killed by two special forces soldiers, but they were unaware of a child hidden in blankets near him. The child was later discovered with a single gunshot wound to the abdomen and within five minutes was pronounced dead. A payment to the child’s family of $US1,500 was made.

Manslaughter - no intent.

The child's family will be so relieved to hear that.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #84 - Jun 7^th, 2019 at 7:30am

lee wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:49pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 6^th, 2019 at 5:42pm:

"Consequently, while cost is not the only factor to be considered, when it comes down to an argument regarding the benefits of the death penalty to society, the argument that it is cheaper to execute someone than keep them alive in prison for the rest of their lives is utterly wrong."

Please give the cost breakdown of how it is cheaper. One off execution v lifelong incarceration costs. Meals, Accommodation, Medical.

Financial Facts About the Death Penalty

Reviewing 15 state studies of death penalty costs conducted between 2000 and 2016, the study found that, across the country, seeking the death penalty imposes an average of approximately $700,000 more in case-level costs than not seeking death. The researchers wrote that "all of these studies have found ... that seeking and imposing the death penalty is more expensive than not seeking it." The Oklahoma study reviewed 184 first-degree murder cases from Oklahoma and Tulsa counties in the years 2004-2010 and analyzed costs incurred at the pre-trial, trial, sentencing, and post-sentencing (appeals and incarceration) stages. Capital prosecutions, it found, cost the counties more than 1½ times the amount of incarceration costs than did non-capital trials because capital defendants spent an average of 324 more days in jail prior to and during death penalty trials.

Death penalty vs. life in prison: The costs

The comptroller's report cited the greater expense on the increased complexity of the case, the increased number of agencies in people involved in the case, more time spent by both the prosecution and defense for preparation and more steps in the appellate process.

DEATH PENALTY COST

The greatest costs associated with the death penalty occur prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings (appeals) were abolished, the death penalty would still be more expensive than alternative sentences.

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lee

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #85 - Jun 7^th, 2019 at 11:49am

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 7:30am:

The Oklahoma study reviewed 184 first-degree murder cases from Oklahoma and Tulsa counties in the years 2004-2010 and analyzed costs incurred at the pre-trial, trial, sentencing, and post-sentencing (appeals and incarceration) stages. Capital prosecutions, it found, cost the counties more than 1½ times the amount of incarceration costs than did non-capital trials because capital defendants spent an average of 324 more days in jail prior to and during death penalty trials.

Oh referencing the States with their interminable appeals process proves so much for Australia. Grin

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macman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2435 australia Gender:	Re: Who are they after in ABC ? Reply #86 - Jun 7^th, 2019 at 12:26pm So, Ita has accused the AFP of intimidation eh righties. Even the right wing plant reckons it was over the top. And in not so many words she pointed the finger as to who is behind it. What now Liar, lets hear your spin.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #87 - Jun 7^th, 2019 at 12:27pm

lee wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 11:49am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 7:30am:

The Oklahoma study reviewed 184 first-degree murder cases from Oklahoma and Tulsa counties in the years 2004-2010 and analyzed costs incurred at the pre-trial, trial, sentencing, and post-sentencing (appeals and incarceration) stages. Capital prosecutions, it found, cost the counties more than 1½ times the amount of incarceration costs than did non-capital trials because capital defendants spent an average of 324 more days in jail prior to and during death penalty trials.

Oh referencing the States with their interminable appeals process proves so much for Australia. Grin

My god, you struggle.

We don't have capital punishment in Australia.

Roll Eyes

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mothra

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #88 - Jun 7^th, 2019 at 12:32pm

lee wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 11:49am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 7:30am:

The Oklahoma study reviewed 184 first-degree murder cases from Oklahoma and Tulsa counties in the years 2004-2010 and analyzed costs incurred at the pre-trial, trial, sentencing, and post-sentencing (appeals and incarceration) stages. Capital prosecutions, it found, cost the counties more than 1½ times the amount of incarceration costs than did non-capital trials because capital defendants spent an average of 324 more days in jail prior to and during death penalty trials.

Oh referencing the States with their interminable appeals process proves so much for Australia. Grin

Are you saying we wouldn't have an exhaustive appeals process for the death penalty?

Just a finding of guilty and out the back with a AR-15 like China?

Always interesting to see what Ozpol members really desire for our country.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Who are they after in ABC ?
Reply #89 - Jun 7^th, 2019 at 12:40pm

mothra wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 12:32pm:

lee wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 11:49am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 7^th, 2019 at 7:30am:

The Oklahoma study reviewed 184 first-degree murder cases from Oklahoma and Tulsa counties in the years 2004-2010 and analyzed costs incurred at the pre-trial, trial, sentencing, and post-sentencing (appeals and incarceration) stages. Capital prosecutions, it found, cost the counties more than 1½ times the amount of incarceration costs than did non-capital trials because capital defendants spent an average of 324 more days in jail prior to and during death penalty trials.

Oh referencing the States with their interminable appeals process proves so much for Australia. Grin

Are you saying we wouldn't have an exhaustive appeals process for the death penalty?

Just a finding of guilty and out the back with a AR-15 like China?

Always interesting to see what Ozpol members really desire for our country.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they want.

Another thing people like lee don't understand, is that it takes on average about 11 to 12 years to find out if people on death row have been wrongfully convicted.

So, carrying out the barbaric execution immediately after trial would (and has) result in the murder of many innocent people.

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