Quote:Right, you just asked if I quoted it here or "some unrelated thread in the last 6 months". Are you now pretending you knew all along that I actually did quote my source?
Anyway feel free to actually check the source I have already quoted. All will be revealed I promise. At the end of the quote is a link which will tell you exactly where I "got it from".
Stop being a slippery Muslim Gandalf. I told you which bits I wanted you sources for. You did not supply a link.
Quote:So sorry for being a slippery muslim, but I do take the view that if you respond directly to evidence I post, and even directly quote the very evidence I posted - then its pretty dumb to turn around and start playing the "err what evidence?" game.
It is not evidence if you just make it up Gandalf.
Quote:But for the sake of putting an end to an inanely stupid tangent, the post in which I provided the "easily above 1 million" (direct quote) estimate, along with the url of the source (university site, written by an actual expert in the field) is post# 52. And just for your reference, the post in which you directly quoted this estimate, but inexplicably knew nothing about it, is post# 55.
Gandalf, this is what your quote said:
Systematic research on the demography and treatment of Muslim slaves in early modern Europe still remains to be done.How do you get from that to these two claims:
Quote:Its estimated the Europeans had around 1 million muslim slaves during the 'Barbary' period, which was roughly the same as the number of European slaves held by the Barbary states.
Quote:In the process they directly slaughtered or were responsible for the death of more people than at any time in the history of mankind.
Quote:Yes. The diseases didn't spread because of some benign, innocent non-disruptive contact with the natives. They spread because the imperialistic Europeans barged in uninvited to rape and pillage and make slaves
That's how the flu spreads, is it? by rape and pillage?
Quote:Are you now clear on the "easily above 1 million" (not my quote) muslim slave claim?
You source claims to extrapolate to this number for all of Europe and for the entire early modern period.
Quote:The other claim, "In the process they directly slaughtered or were responsible for the death of more people than at any time in the history of mankind." - as already clearly explained is my own claim, that is based on the bleeding obvious. Do you need me to go through the figures again?
Sure. Let's start with the total, which for some reason you are reluctant to give.
Quote:And constrained they most definitely are at the moment
So I ask again Gandalf, are you seriously suggesting we plan on doing any of these things indefinitely? Does that pass your common sense test? Are you really arguing that the need for military intervention to establish democracy mean we are not actually establishing democracy because of the military intervention?
Quote:You're not disputing this basic point - despite your protestations that the US is somehow "trying" to establish democracy.
Yes I am. I am saying it is inevitable, and the US and allies do what they do knowing this. You cannot give people a say in how they are governed at the same time as expecting to maintain control of the situation.
Quote:Really, the only argument you can make here is that Afghan democracy will "inevitably" take flight, but only after the US either relinquishes control, or is forced out of Afghanistan politics.
Duh. The US will leave when they leave. They will either leave voluntarily or will be forced out. Great insight there Gandalf. Do you have a point, or are you just desperate to dismiss the bleeding obvious - that the west is dragging the Muslim world by the nose into the 19th century - as some kind of sinister conspiracy?
Quote:Indeed it is - but just because a particular policy direction is clearly bad and short-sighted and makes things "inherently unstable"
You miss the point Gandalf. I am not criticising it for 'creating instability'. I am saying that what you pretend is our true agenda is a condition that cannot go on existing. It will either transition to functioning democracy or revert back to dictatorship. You mistake a transition to fully functional democracy as implying violent instability.
Quote:Your own personal theory on whats the best system to create stable and safe governments for western interests is entirely irrelevant to what western leaders think and do.
What is this theory of mine Gandalf?
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