Australian Politics Forum - Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia

mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #60 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:25pm

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:14pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:22pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:14pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:04pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 10:07am:

Did you see Hammer trying to introduce the same verse again as "evidence" (in his unreferenced copy and paste bomb from thereligionofpeace) after it had already been explained three times?

This, and the citing from Gnads, came after i had already addressed it back on the first page.

But Hammer has to get the wooden spoon.

Just goes to show, Islamophobes only read what they want to read ... and what they want to read is the extremist and widely discredited cite, thereligionofpeace.

And you do the exactly the same to suit your agenda. Roll Eyes

Hypocrites much.

Not at all. I read thereligionofpeace. And Jidadwatch .. and all sorts of hateful, extremist propaganda.

How else do you think i am able to discredit it so readily?

the difference between you and i is i don't accept it at face value. I do my research.

That is how you got owned.

And boy, did he get owned! Grin

Not as owned as you & your Dhimmi mate Mothballs.

I'm sincerely sorry for you that you have refused this opportunity to be further educated.

Is holding onto hatred really so important to you?

tell me Gnads, what do you think that will achieve?

There is much in Islam to criticise. For example, why do some scholars and leaders continue to follow a highly questionable verse in the Hadith that allegedly calls for apostasy, despite the arguments of a great many scholars and Islam clerics who claim that it is to be overlooked?

What marks this difference?

How do we engage with those who are opposed and help them to be heard?

Do you think your way is going to do that? The way of falsehood and hatred?

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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #61 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:28pm

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:19pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 1:46pm:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 1:31pm:

most of these threads involve mothra and gwegs addiction to a certain emotional state.

when you are mediocre and you dont have a lot going on in your life, you tend to be in a state of permanent "pissed off edness".

to keep feeding this state (because emotional states are addictive and the addict needs his hit), gweg and mothra need to keep the hate flowing.

it would be best if those of the noble right ceased feeding the addicts the drug they seek.

they both need to be weaned off this cycle of "unfocused discontent" and "drawing state from the environment" and then they can look deep inside themselves and try to draw peace and contentment from within.

as long as there is an environment and they keep getting fed the insults which they are sooooo addicted to, there is no hope for them to move up.

The noble rightard needs to stop interacting with them, in a spirit of contribution.

Horse-boy, once again demonstrating he has absolutely no idea what is going on.

Greg and (and others) are speaking up against hate.

By doing so, we are, make some people very angry.

It is the that don't want to let go of their hate ... and they similarly hate having their hatred challenged with cool, even-handed facts.

Let go of your prejudice against the left Horse-boy. It's severely clouding your observational skills.

Piffle .... it's your bent perception.

It's not hate ... it's being a realist & seeing what's happening globally on the subject.

All you & Peccarhead are trying to do is to shut down debate by calling people racists, islamaphobes etc. etc

and claiming your sources are impeccable & actual fact.

But you're not seeing what is happening globally.

Globally most Islamic countries do not execute people for apostasy.

Globally only 4% of Muslims favour death for apostasy.

You are superimposing the practices of particularly nasty countries with varied human rights abuses onto the main body of Islam.

It is unfair, unwise and serves only to generate hatred and fear.

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Gnads

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #62 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 3:00pm

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:18pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:13pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:14pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:04pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 10:07am:

Did you see Hammer trying to introduce the same verse again as "evidence" (in his unreferenced copy and paste bomb from thereligionofpeace) after it had already been explained three times?

This, and the citing from Gnads, came after i had already addressed it back on the first page.

But Hammer has to get the wooden spoon.

Just goes to show, Islamophobes only read what they want to read ... and what they want to read is the extremist and widely discredited cite, thereligionofpeace.

And you do the exactly the same to suit your agenda. Roll Eyes

Hypocrites much.

Not at all. I read thereligionofpeace. And Jidadwatch .. and all sorts of hateful, extremist propaganda.

How else do you think i am able to discredit it so readily?

the difference between you and i is i don't accept it at face value. I do my research.

That is how you got owned.

You're so full of yourself you'll explode.

You discredit nothing .... the links you post attempt to

And for every link either I or you post there's one to counter it

seems a moot point

bottom line is you wear rose coloured glasses & believe in the tooth fairy.

No Gnads. Wrong on all counts.

There is no proclamation in the Quran for death to apostates. This has been proven. You were wrong. You believed a hate site and didn't do your own research. You got busted. Best you move on to the next point. Holding onto your mistakes is not serving you in any productive way.

And of course there aare always going to be links to counter other links. The trick is to analyse what you read, read the counter argument and discern the truth from that.

The other trick is to go to reputable sources.

I went straight to the Quran.

You went to thereligionofpeace.

Not by you.

https://www.clearquran.com/downloads/quran-english-translation-clearquran-editio...
Quote:

Chapter 47. Muhammad -

3. That is because those who disbelieve follow
falsehoods, while those who believe follow
the truth from their Lord. Allah thus cites for
the people their examples.
4. When you encounter those who disbelieve,
strike at their necks. Then, when you have
routed them, bind them firmly. Then, either
release them by grace, or by ransom, until
war lays down its burdens. Had Allah willed,
He could have defeated them Himself, but He
thus tests some of you by means of others. As
for those who are killed in the way of Allah,
He will not let their deeds go to waste.

Quote:

Chapter 9. Repentance:-
5. When the Sacred Months have passed, kill
the polytheists wherever you find them. And
capture them, and besiege them, and lie in
wait for them at every ambush.
14. Fight them. Allah will punish them at your
hands, and humiliate them, and help you
against them, and heal the hearts of a believing
people.

Quote:

29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah,
nor in the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah
and His Messenger have forbidden, nor abide
by the religion of truth—from among those
who received the Scripture—until they pay
the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

There is plenty of reference throughout the book that "non-believers" ... and apostates are non believers ..

are to be killed.

You've owned no one & nothing.

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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #63 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 3:42pm

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 3:00pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:18pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:13pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:14pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:04pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 10:07am:

Did you see Hammer trying to introduce the same verse again as "evidence" (in his unreferenced copy and paste bomb from thereligionofpeace) after it had already been explained three times?

This, and the citing from Gnads, came after i had already addressed it back on the first page.

But Hammer has to get the wooden spoon.

Just goes to show, Islamophobes only read what they want to read ... and what they want to read is the extremist and widely discredited cite, thereligionofpeace.

And you do the exactly the same to suit your agenda. Roll Eyes

Hypocrites much.

Not at all. I read thereligionofpeace. And Jidadwatch .. and all sorts of hateful, extremist propaganda.

How else do you think i am able to discredit it so readily?

the difference between you and i is i don't accept it at face value. I do my research.

That is how you got owned.

You're so full of yourself you'll explode.

You discredit nothing .... the links you post attempt to

And for every link either I or you post there's one to counter it

seems a moot point

bottom line is you wear rose coloured glasses & believe in the tooth fairy.

No Gnads. Wrong on all counts.

There is no proclamation in the Quran for death to apostates. This has been proven. You were wrong. You believed a hate site and didn't do your own research. You got busted. Best you move on to the next point. Holding onto your mistakes is not serving you in any productive way.

And of course there aare always going to be links to counter other links. The trick is to analyse what you read, read the counter argument and discern the truth from that.

The other trick is to go to reputable sources.

I went straight to the Quran.

You went to thereligionofpeace.

Not by you.

https://www.clearquran.com/downloads/quran-english-translation-clearquran-editio...
Quote:

Chapter 47. Muhammad -

3. That is because those who disbelieve follow
falsehoods, while those who believe follow
the truth from their Lord. Allah thus cites for
the people their examples.
4. When you encounter those who disbelieve,
strike at their necks. Then, when you have
routed them, bind them firmly. Then, either
release them by grace, or by ransom, until
war lays down its burdens. Had Allah willed,
He could have defeated them Himself, but He
thus tests some of you by means of others. As
for those who are killed in the way of Allah,
He will not let their deeds go to waste.

Quote:

Chapter 9. Repentance:-
5. When the Sacred Months have passed, kill
the polytheists wherever you find them. And
capture them, and besiege them, and lie in
wait for them at every ambush.
14. Fight them. Allah will punish them at your
hands, and humiliate them, and help you
against them, and heal the hearts of a believing
people.

Quote:

29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah,
nor in the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah
and His Messenger have forbidden, nor abide
by the religion of truth—from among those
who received the Scripture—until they pay
the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

There is plenty of reference throughout the book that "non-believers" ... and apostates are non believers ..

are to be killed.

You've owned no one & nothing.

Yes, i have proven you quite wrong. Those verses do not apply to apostates. You're stretching. They apply to war.

There is no recommendation that apostates be executed in the Quran.

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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #64 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 3:43pm

And once again you have cherry picked verses out of context to try to justify your hatred. Why do you do this?

Read the verses before and after:

9.4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

9.6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

9.13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

And try to understand the verses you quote in context:

47.4 So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

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freediver

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #65 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 4:23pm

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 3:43pm:

And once again you have cherry picked verses out of context to try to justify your hatred. Why do you do this?

Read the verses before and after:

9.4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

9.6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

9.13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

And try to understand the verses you quote in context:

47.4 So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

Sounds delightful Mothra. Thanks. So Allah orders Muslims to slaughter non-Muslims as a test of the Muslims?

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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #66 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:09pm

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 4:23pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 3:43pm:

And once again you have cherry picked verses out of context to try to justify your hatred. Why do you do this?

Read the verses before and after:

9.4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

9.6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

9.13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

And try to understand the verses you quote in context:

47.4 So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

Sounds delightful Mothra. Thanks. So Allah orders Muslims to slaughter non-Muslims as a test of the Muslims?

Surely an esteemed scholar of the Quran such as yourself understands the context of this verse?

It was ordained when Muslims were a targeted and persecuted minority.

It simply means take up arms, lest be taken over. And for them to trust in Allah to aid them.

Would you like to discuss all of the calls to violence in the Bible FD? Or is it just Islam that has piqued your fancy?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47540 At my desk.	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #67 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:32pm Quote: It was ordained when Muslims were a targeted and persecuted minority. Crap. Muhammad preached peace and tolerance when Muslims were a minority. He preached rape and pillage as soon as they gained enough military strength.
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Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 40723 Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #68 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:41pm mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 11:57am: Absolutely disgusting sentiments. Thank goodness most Muslims don't think like this! Well, they are apostates then, because islam is very clear about death for those who leave Islam. Not accepting clear-cut Islamic teaching is thereby leaving Islam.
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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #69 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:51pm

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:32pm:

Quote:

It was ordained when Muslims were a targeted and persecuted minority.

Crap. Muhammad preached peace and tolerance when Muslims were a minority. He preached rape and pillage as soon as they gained enough military strength.

Overly siplistic, as no doubt Karnal and Gandalf have told you many, many times.

At the time this Surah was ordained, the Muslims had left Mecca where they were persecuted, to arrive in Medina. The Meccans sent an army after them. The small settlement of Muslims in Medina were under siege conditions.

The only option for the Muslims was to either accept domination or fight for their beliefs.

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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #70 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:51pm

Frank wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:41pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 11:57am:

Absolutely disgusting sentiments.

Thank goodness most Muslims don't think like this!

Well, they are apostates then, because islam is vry clear about death for those who leave Islam. Not accepting clear-cut Islamic teaching is thereby leaving Islam.

Read the thread, Frank,

You've got some catching up to do.

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Gnads

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #71 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:55pm

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:28pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:19pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 1:46pm:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 1:31pm:

most of these threads involve mothra and gwegs addiction to a certain emotional state.

when you are mediocre and you dont have a lot going on in your life, you tend to be in a state of permanent "pissed off edness".

to keep feeding this state (because emotional states are addictive and the addict needs his hit), gweg and mothra need to keep the hate flowing.

it would be best if those of the noble right ceased feeding the addicts the drug they seek.

they both need to be weaned off this cycle of "unfocused discontent" and "drawing state from the environment" and then they can look deep inside themselves and try to draw peace and contentment from within.

as long as there is an environment and they keep getting fed the insults which they are sooooo addicted to, there is no hope for them to move up.

The noble rightard needs to stop interacting with them, in a spirit of contribution.

Horse-boy, once again demonstrating he has absolutely no idea what is going on.

Greg and (and others) are speaking up against hate.

By doing so, we are, make some people very angry.

It is the that don't want to let go of their hate ... and they similarly hate having their hatred challenged with cool, even-handed facts.

Let go of your prejudice against the left Horse-boy. It's severely clouding your observational skills.

Piffle .... it's your bent perception.

It's not hate ... it's being a realist & seeing what's happening globally on the subject.

All you & Peccarhead are trying to do is to shut down debate by calling people racists, islamaphobes etc. etc

and claiming your sources are impeccable & actual fact.

But you're not seeing what is happening globally.

Globally most Islamic countries do not execute people for apostasy.

Globally only 4% of Muslims favour death for apostasy.

You are superimposing the practices of particularly nasty countries with varied human rights abuses onto the main body of Islam.

It is unfair, unwise and serves only to generate hatred and fear.

You have no idea in reality about Islam & it's doctrine of dominance over others.

Yet if only 4% prescribe death to apostates & unbelievers.........

the other 96% are allowing them to rule the roost

and in Western countries that other 96% where they have more freedoms to stop that radical 4% ...

are doing SFA!!!!!!!!!!

Who the hell in our PC political spectrum is allowing the people who belong to this so called only 4% into our country .... & every other western country that has done the so called humanitarian thing.......

let people of this mindset in?

Don't talk shyte about the majority of Muslims when they are doing absolutely jackshit to prevent these people following them around the globe when they have supposedly fled because of Islamic extremism.

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Gnads

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #72 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:59pm

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 3:42pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 3:00pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:18pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 2:13pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:14pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 12:04pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 10:07am:

Did you see Hammer trying to introduce the same verse again as "evidence" (in his unreferenced copy and paste bomb from thereligionofpeace) after it had already been explained three times?

This, and the citing from Gnads, came after i had already addressed it back on the first page.

But Hammer has to get the wooden spoon.

Just goes to show, Islamophobes only read what they want to read ... and what they want to read is the extremist and widely discredited cite, thereligionofpeace.

And you do the exactly the same to suit your agenda. Roll Eyes

Hypocrites much.

Not at all. I read thereligionofpeace. And Jidadwatch .. and all sorts of hateful, extremist propaganda.

How else do you think i am able to discredit it so readily?

the difference between you and i is i don't accept it at face value. I do my research.

That is how you got owned.

You're so full of yourself you'll explode.

You discredit nothing .... the links you post attempt to

And for every link either I or you post there's one to counter it

seems a moot point

bottom line is you wear rose coloured glasses & believe in the tooth fairy.

No Gnads. Wrong on all counts.

There is no proclamation in the Quran for death to apostates. This has been proven. You were wrong. You believed a hate site and didn't do your own research. You got busted. Best you move on to the next point. Holding onto your mistakes is not serving you in any productive way.

And of course there aare always going to be links to counter other links. The trick is to analyse what you read, read the counter argument and discern the truth from that.

The other trick is to go to reputable sources.

I went straight to the Quran.

You went to thereligionofpeace.

Not by you.

https://www.clearquran.com/downloads/quran-english-translation-clearquran-editio...
Quote:

Chapter 47. Muhammad -

3. That is because those who disbelieve follow
falsehoods, while those who believe follow
the truth from their Lord. Allah thus cites for
the people their examples.
4. When you encounter those who disbelieve,
strike at their necks. Then, when you have
routed them, bind them firmly. Then, either
release them by grace, or by ransom, until
war lays down its burdens. Had Allah willed,
He could have defeated them Himself, but He
thus tests some of you by means of others. As
for those who are killed in the way of Allah,
He will not let their deeds go to waste.

Quote:

Chapter 9. Repentance:-
5. When the Sacred Months have passed, kill
the polytheists wherever you find them. And
capture them, and besiege them, and lie in
wait for them at every ambush.
14. Fight them. Allah will punish them at your
hands, and humiliate them, and help you
against them, and heal the hearts of a believing
people.

Quote:

29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah,
nor in the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah
and His Messenger have forbidden, nor abide
by the religion of truth—from among those
who received the Scripture—until they pay
the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

There is plenty of reference throughout the book that "non-believers" ... and apostates are non believers ..

are to be killed.

You've owned no one & nothing.

Yes, i have proven you quite wrong. Those verses do not apply to apostates. You're stretching. They apply to war.

There is no recommendation that apostates be executed in the Quran.

No they apply to everyone who is a non believer.

The repetition that there is no recommendation regarding apostates is just pedantic.

Something that you & peccarhead excel at.

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Gnads

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #73 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 6:02pm

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:32pm:

Quote:

It was ordained when Muslims were a targeted and persecuted minority.

Crap. Muhammad preached peace and tolerance when Muslims were a minority. He preached rape and pillage as soon as they gained enough military strength.

Exactly right..... Muhammad & his mates wrote the Koran ... not Allah.

If only rose coloured glasses would give her a headache

it would be a head well deserved of one.

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freediver

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #74 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 6:06pm

mothra wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:51pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2017 at 5:32pm:

Quote:

It was ordained when Muslims were a targeted and persecuted minority.

Crap. Muhammad preached peace and tolerance when Muslims were a minority. He preached rape and pillage as soon as they gained enough military strength.

Overly siplistic, as no doubt Karnal and Gandalf have told you many, many times.

At the time this Surah was ordained, the Muslims had left Mecca where they were persecuted, to arrive in Medina. The Meccans sent an army after them. The small settlement of Muslims in Medina were under siege conditions.

The only option for the Muslims was to either accept domination or fight for their beliefs.

The Meccans sent an army after them because Muhammad was using Medina as a base from which to rob Meccan caravans.

The "accept domination" schtick is BS. The Meccans wanted to stop Muhammad robbing caravans. After one battle that they won, the went back to Mecca rather than pressing their advantage because they thought Muhammad was dead and that would be the end of it. It was not the culture at the time for one religion to dominate another. Muhammad introduced that. It was literally a multicultural and multireligious society.

Had they not been beholden to a giant douchebag, they would have seen the clear option of not robbing Meccan caravans.

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