Australian Politics Forum - Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia

mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 34535 Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #30 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:02pm Valkie wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:00pm: Gnads got owned. Gweggy, you are slipping again. Yes i am Greg. Only one person thinks you a hate-mongering idiot.
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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #31 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:02pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:01pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:59pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:55pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:17pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 1:04pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 12:59pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 12:57pm:

And for anyone about to say "Oh but that's just the Old Testament!":

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.‘
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 ” ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'”

and:

“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished."

(Matthew 5:17-18)”

But Christians around the world aren't taken their written word seriously enough to kill people hey Mothballs?

Some are. But that is beside the point. Nowhere in the Qu'ran does it call for death to apostates. Yet it does so clearly in the Bible.

Did you miss the part where i quoted that only about 4.21% of Muslims want the death penalty for aposty?

I highlighted it and everything.

Got any links to support that ... piece of apologist BS?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

Quote:

Quran: (4:89)-"They wish that you should reject faith as they reject faith, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in "full submission" to Muhammad's teachings. This verse explains what should happen to Muslims who do not have faith.

Quote:

Quran: (9:11-12) -"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

And there are many Hadith & Sira calling for the same :

death to apostates. Roll Eyes

Mothra is owned!!! Grin

Read my reply to him, you imbecile.

Gnads got owned.

Furthermore i had already addressed that verse in an earlier post AND the verse that follows it.

Gnads should have done his homework better.

I;m confused you silly old fart. You said thre's no reference to killing apostates in the koran . But it says this- until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them..

You were owned!!!

Read my reply .. you absolute muppet.

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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #32 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:04pm

Verse 89, as I said is most quoted as the reason to kill apostates, however verse 90 lays out clear rules. Kill them, EXCEPT if they are seeking refuge from you (living in your city), if they are living between your city, and a city you have a treaty with, if they come to your city, and if they do not want to fight. Then it goes a step further to even imply that we should be good to them, because if Allah had willed, they could have overtaken us, so we should be perfectly happy that they do not want to fight or cause problems and simply accept them. The last part of the verse says it all

So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

So if they become and apostate, but do not fight you, then offer them peace, Allah does not want you to fight against them.

https://www.quora.com/Do-a-large-number-of-Muslims-support-the-death-penalty-for...

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 28107 Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #33 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:11pm 2 different Qurans are there?
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Mr Hammer

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #34 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:12pm

stupid tart-

Quran
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should reject faith as they reject faith, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in "full submission" to Muhammad's teachings. This verse explains what should happen to Muslims who do not have faith.
Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith that establish the death sentence for apostates are Quran verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, 9:66.

Hadith and Sira
The most reliable Hadith collection contain numerous accounts of Muhammad and his companions putting people to death for leaving Islam. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Those who obey the Messenger obey Allah."

Sahih Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Sahih Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Sahih Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'" This verse from the Hadith is worse than it appears because it isn't speaking solely of apostates, but those who say they believe but don't put their religion into practice.

Sahih Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses'."

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe, who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" - upon finding out that grammatical changes could be made. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

al-Muwatta of Imam Malik (36.18.15) - "The Messenger of Allah said, "If someone changes his religion - then strike off his head."

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).

Islamic Law:

There is also a consensus by all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (i.e., Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafii), as well as classical Shiite jurists, that apostates from Islam must be put to death. The process of declaring a person to be an apostate is known as takfir and the disbeliever is called a murtad.

Averroes (d. 1198), the renowned philosopher and scholar of the natural sciences, who was also an important Maliki jurist, provided this typical Muslim legal opinion on the punishment for apostasy: "An apostate...is to be executed by agreement in the case of a man, because of the words of the Prophet, 'Slay those who change their din [religion]'...Asking the apostate to repent was stipulated as a condition...prior to his execution."

The contemporary (i.e., 1991) Al-Azhar (Cairo) Islamic Research Academy endorsed manual of Islamic Law, Umdat al-Salik (pp. 595-96) states: "Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst...

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 28107 Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #35 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:13pm Hizb ut Tahirs version of ignoring apostates
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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 34535 Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #36 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:13pm Gnads wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:11pm: 2 different Qurans are there? Of course. Muslims are the only people to twist the words of their holy book ...
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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 34535 Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #37 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:15pm Gnads wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:13pm: Hizb ut Tahirs version of ignoring apostates Yes. They are very bad people. We've established that. We are all in agreement. Your point?
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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20230 Gordon Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #38 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:15pm The liberal democratic Muslims who favour a Islamic reform always stress the need to remove the killing of apostates from Islam.
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Gnads

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #39 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:15pm

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:59pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:55pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:17pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 1:04pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 12:59pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 12:57pm:

And for anyone about to say "Oh but that's just the Old Testament!":

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.‘
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 ” ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'”

and:

“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished."

(Matthew 5:17-18)”

But Christians around the world aren't taken their written word seriously enough to kill people hey Mothballs?

Some are. But that is beside the point. Nowhere in the Qu'ran does it call for death to apostates. Yet it does so clearly in the Bible.

Did you miss the part where i quoted that only about 4.21% of Muslims want the death penalty for aposty?

I highlighted it and everything.

Got any links to support that ... piece of apologist BS?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

Quote:

Quran: (4:89)-"They wish that you should reject faith as they reject faith, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in "full submission" to Muhammad's teachings. This verse explains what should happen to Muslims who do not have faith.

Quote:

Quran: (9:11-12) -"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

And there are many Hadith & Sira calling for the same :

death to apostates. Roll Eyes

Mothra is owned!!! Grin

Read my reply to him, you imbecile.

Gnads got owned.

Furthermore i had already addressed that verse in an earlier post AND the verse that follows it.

Gnads should have done his homework better.

In your ferking dreams sweetheart Roll Eyes

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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mothra

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #40 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:19pm

Gnads wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:15pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:59pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:55pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:17pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 1:04pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 12:59pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 12:57pm:

And for anyone about to say "Oh but that's just the Old Testament!":

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.‘
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 ” ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'”

and:

“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished."

(Matthew 5:17-18)”

But Christians around the world aren't taken their written word seriously enough to kill people hey Mothballs?

Some are. But that is beside the point. Nowhere in the Qu'ran does it call for death to apostates. Yet it does so clearly in the Bible.

Did you miss the part where i quoted that only about 4.21% of Muslims want the death penalty for aposty?

I highlighted it and everything.

Got any links to support that ... piece of apologist BS?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

Quote:

Quran: (4:89)-"They wish that you should reject faith as they reject faith, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in "full submission" to Muhammad's teachings. This verse explains what should happen to Muslims who do not have faith.

Quote:

Quran: (9:11-12) -"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

And there are many Hadith & Sira calling for the same :

death to apostates. Roll Eyes

Mothra is owned!!! Grin

Read my reply to him, you imbecile.

Gnads got owned.

Furthermore i had already addressed that verse in an earlier post AND the verse that follows it.

Gnads should have done his homework better.

In your ferking dreams sweetheart Roll Eyes

Did you not notice?

Pity, you might have learned something.

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Valkie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16096 Central Coast Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #41 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:20pm mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:02pm: Valkie wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:00pm: Gnads got owned. Gweggy, you are slipping again. Yes i am Greg. Only one person thinks you a hate-mongering idiot. Now, now, is that nice? You will have to go to the back of gweggys brain if you dont play nice.
Back to top	I HAVE A DREAM A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM. A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM. SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU IP Logged

mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 34535 Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #42 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:21pm And Hammer, if you are going to quote from threligionofpeace, don't be too shy to admit it. Granted, it's a hate site for raving loonies (as wee have established) but you should always cite your sources.
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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 28107 Gender:	Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia Reply #43 - Mar 28^th, 2017 at 8:23pm
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia
Reply #44 - Mar 29^th, 2017 at 9:29am

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:43pm:

Gnads wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 7:17pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 1:04pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 12:59pm:

mothra wrote on Mar 28^th, 2017 at 12:57pm:

And for anyone about to say "Oh but that's just the Old Testament!":

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.‘
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 ” ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'”

and:

“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished."

(Matthew 5:17-18)”

But Christians around the world aren't taken their written word seriously enough to kill people hey Mothballs?

Some are. But that is beside the point. Nowhere in the Qu'ran does it call for death to apostates. Yet it does so clearly in the Bible.

Did you miss the part where i quoted that only about 4.21% of Muslims want the death penalty for aposty?

I highlighted it and everything.

Got any links to support that ... piece of apologist BS?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

Quote:

Quran: (4:89)-"They wish that you should reject faith as they reject faith, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in "full submission" to Muhammad's teachings. This verse explains what should happen to Muslims who do not have faith.

Quote:

Quran: (9:11-12) -"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

And there are many Hadith & Sira calling for the same :

death to apostates. Roll Eyes

Alas Gnads, the problem with using thereligionofpeace for a source is you only get told what raving loonies with an agenda want to tell you.

Now, what follows Qu'ran: (4:89)@

Why that would be Qu'ran (4:90) Kill them, except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

I've already mentioned that on this thread.

He he

Gnads gets owned again.

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