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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51219 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #270 - Sep 1^st, 2017 at 8:55pm My problem is that you are answering a different question to the one asked.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #271 - Sep 1^st, 2017 at 8:59pm freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2017 at 8:55pm: My problem is that you are answering a different question to the one asked. No you're right FD - it isn't consistent - Muhammad spared the Meccans after he conquered the city. My bad.
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freediver

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #272 - Sep 1^st, 2017 at 9:06pm

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2017 at 9:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18^th, 2017 at 3:56pm:

So the sequence in your question is more accurately:

Among the polytheists to whom the muslims had a treaty with, exempt those who had been true to their treaty, then give the rest a certain number of months grace period to reestablish their treaties that they had broken - after which "kill the musrhiken wherever you find them".

How many months grace period did Muhammad give the Meccans to re-establish their treaty?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #273 - Sep 1^st, 2017 at 9:15pm So your issue isn't that Muhammad retaliated against treaty breakers, its that he didn't give a 4 month grace period? Do you think the 2 contexts might have been a little different?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51219 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #274 - Sep 1^st, 2017 at 9:23pm My issue is that your spin is inconsistent with Muhammad's actions. You sprout all sorts of fairytale versions of Islam that are inconsistent with what the Koran says and what Muhammad did. Then when the inconsistency is pointed out you pretend you cannot understand the question, or you say it is OK because of Muslim victimhood.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #275 - Sep 1^st, 2017 at 9:41pm

freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2017 at 9:23pm:

My issue is that your spin is inconsistent with Muhammad's actions. You sprout all sorts of fairytale versions of Islam that are inconsistent with what the Koran says and what Muhammad did. Then when the inconsistency is pointed out you pretend you cannot understand the question, or you say it is OK because of Muslim victimhood.

Chapter 9 came after the conquest of Mecca. It was referring specifically to other tribes who had made a treaty with Muhammad, but were in the process of breaking them. Do you think the two contexts might have been a little different?

Also, do you think its interesting that Muhammad gave this rather extraordinary grace period right after he had conquered the most powerful tribe in Arabia, and overran the biggest city? Do you think that says something about Muhammad's preferences when it comes to war or peace?

Again I ask - is the issue you have not with Muhammad retaliating against treaty breakers, but that he didn't give the Meccans a 4 month grace period like he gave the other tribes after he had conquered Mecca? Is your argument that when faced with violations of treaties, if he doesn't give massive concessions like a 4 month grace period every time - he is necessarily a warmonger and a hypocrite?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51219 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #276 - Sep 1^st, 2017 at 9:44pm Same question. Same answer.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #277 - Sep 1^st, 2017 at 10:15pm

freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2017 at 9:44pm:

Same question. Same answer.

Is the only "inconsistency" you are pointing out to me that chapter 9 gives a 4 month grace period for treaty breakers, while the Meccans didn't?

Does that inconcsistency make Muhammad a warmonger and a hypocrite - even though in both instances we are talking about people who attacked (broke their treaty) him first?

Is it normal for you to criticise all pre-medieval rulers who retaliate against the violation of treaties and shriek about hypocricy and what not - or only when its Muhammad?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51219 At my desk.	Re: chapter 9 Reply #278 - Sep 2^nd, 2017 at 10:10am That's the only one I was pointing out with that particular quote. Muhammad is the only warmonger that people feel compelled to turn into something else.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #279 - Sep 2^nd, 2017 at 7:18pm freediver wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2017 at 10:10am: Muhammad is the only warmonger that people feel compelled to turn into something else. Thats a courageous statement if ever I've heard one FD.
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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #280 - Sep 2^nd, 2017 at 7:25pm Take a look around, Gandalf, there's any number of beliefs to choose from, but you just had to choose one that stinks of death and corruption.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #281 - Sep 2^nd, 2017 at 7:39pm issuevoter wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2017 at 7:25pm: Take a look around, Gandalf, there's any number of beliefs to choose from, but you just had to choose one that stinks of death and corruption. My choice of religion really does bother you doesn't it issue? In a funny way I actually feel flattered
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freediver

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #282 - Sep 2^nd, 2017 at 8:23pm

Quote:

Is the only "inconsistency" you are pointing out to me that chapter 9 gives a 4 month grace period for treaty breakers, while the Meccans didn't?

The Meccans were actually pushing for a peace treaty when Muhammad attacked. Muhammad negotiated to end the previous treaty, and when they realised what his intentions were, they tried to renegotiate it. Muhammad merely demonstrates the infinite flexibility of Islam in sanctioning mass murder then pretending to take the higher ground afterwards. Muslims will make all sorts of claims about Islam being about restraint, then offer all sorts of excuses, like the Muslims were afraid or were victims.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: chapter 9 Reply #283 - Sep 4^th, 2017 at 7:36am freediver wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2017 at 8:23pm: The Meccans were actually pushing for a peace treaty when Muhammad attacked. Muhammad negotiated to end the previous treaty, and when they realised what his intentions were, they tried to renegotiate it. Sounds like historical revisionism. Please provide your evidence.
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freediver

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #284 - Sep 4^th, 2017 at 2:20pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca

After the incident, Quraysh sent a delegation to Muhammad, petitioning to maintain the treaty with the Muslims and offering material compensation.

...

Meanwhile, Abu Sufyan ibn Harb travelled back and forth between Muhammad and Mecca, still trying to reach a settlement in order to avoid conquest.

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