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chapter 9 (Read 27313 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #210 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:34am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 5:04pm:
That does not make sense.


Just don't reply to a post I made in one thread, in a different thread. Its actually very simple FD.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #211 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 12:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2016 at 10:08am:
4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then
kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.



Gandalf does this say to slaughter the infidel wherever you find them, except for the ones you have a treaty with, unless they violate that treaty somehow?
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #212 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 3:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 12:33pm:
Gandalf does this say to slaughter the infidel wherever you find them, except for the ones you have a treaty with, unless they violate that treaty somehow?


Perhaps if you took that quote in isolation, but not if you took into consideration all of the preceding verses - starting from verse 1:

Quote:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.


which is followed in a logical sequence by...

Quote:
Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].


Clearly, from the outset this entire chapter concerns only those polytheists that had entered into treaties with the muslims. It then makes a clear distinction between those who had remained true to the treaty, and those who had not. The former are put in an "exempted" status.

So the sequence in your question is more accurately:

Among the polytheists to whom the muslims had a treaty with, exempt those who had been true to their treaty, then give the rest a certain number of months grace period to reestablish their treaties that they had broken - after which "kill the musrhiken wherever you find them".
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #213 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 4:50pm
 
I see mushriken were killed at the avenue of Las Ramblas yesterday.

The infallible perfect never to be changed doctrine, gleaming like the beacon of hate and slaughter it is, as the jihadists rapturously mutilate mangle and murder the unbelievers, in their spiritual journey to islamic paradise.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #214 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 6:37pm
 
Quote:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.


The version I quoted in the opening posts does not even have the "this is a declaration" bit at the start of verse one. But it does for verse 3:

3. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind

Are you serioyusly telling us that a declaration from Allah to all mankind should only be interpretted to include non-Muslims who have a treaty with Muslims and then violated it?

Were there any Muslim theologians who interpreted chapter 9 your way in the first century of Islam? Or did they only come up with this lie after they were no longer in a position to slaughter the infidel wherever they found them and had to instead project a more benign image for political reasons?

Quote:
Clearly, from the outset this entire chapter concerns only those polytheists that had entered into treaties with the muslims.


Wrong. Most of the chapter is about Muslims, and the third verse, which is actually closer to the verses in question (verses 4 and 5) states quite clearly that it concerns all mankind.

Quote:
It then makes a clear distinction between those who had remained true to the treaty, and those who had not. The former are put in an "exempted" status.


The ones who had a treaty and remained true to it are exempted from the "slaughter the infidel" bit. This is exactly what I said. The broken treaty is clearly presented as an exception to an exception.

Quote:
Among the polytheists to whom the muslims had a treaty with, exempt those who had been true to their treaty, then give the rest a certain number of months grace period to reestablish their treaties that they had broken - after which "kill the musrhiken wherever you find them".


Is this consistent with Muhammad's actions? For example in attacking Mecca?

Or the instructions from the rightly guided Caliphs to the generals they sent out to slaughter the infidel?
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #215 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 4:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 6:37pm:
The version I quoted in the opening posts does not even have the "this is a declaration"


splitting hairs FD. Are you seriously trying to tell me there is some meaningful difference between:

"[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists."

and

"Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger () to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.?

Both refer to those "with whom you made a treaty" as the frame of reference for the chapter. Even if we just look at the version you quoted - can you explain how it makes sense to firstly declare "freedom from obligation" towards those that have a treaty with the muslims - and then 2 verses later declare that actually, you have to remain true to those you have a treaty with?

You're peddling nonsense. The only way this verse makes sense is if its talking only about the mushriken to whom they have a treaty - and the ones that remain faithful to the treaty are exempted, while the others firstly have a grace period to make amends, after which its open season.

freediver wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 6:37pm:
3. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind

Are you serioyusly telling us that a declaration from Allah to all mankind should only be interpretted to include non-Muslims who have a treaty with Muslims and then violated it?


Firstly, you're not making any sense. Its calling on "mankind" to bear witness to the fact that Allah is disassociating responsibility from the Mushriken - not telling "mankind" they are being disassociated. Secondly, don't get carried away with the interpretation of "mankind". The word is  "Al-Nas" - which is simply "the people". Sahih international interprets it as "the people". But either way, 'mankind' is not out of place - its the difference between "Mankind! - Allah disassociates Himself from those mushriken who will not amend their treaty with the muslims" and  "O People! Allah disassociates Himself from those mushriken who will not amend their treaty with the muslims". Either works - one is just a bit more grandiose.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #216 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 7:30pm
 
Quote:
Are you seriously trying to tell me there is some meaningful difference between


Sure there is. You claimed that the "this" in your version was a reference to the entirety of chapter 9. That interpretation is not possible with the version in the OP. You are basically seeking out the slightest ambiguity in language and inserting an elaborate fairy tale in its place. There is nothing to suggest that verse 1 is limiting the entirety of the chapter to people with whom the Muslims have a treaty. That is inconsistent with what the rest of the verse says and is inconsistent with the actions of Muhammad and the rightly guided Caliphs.

Quote:
Firstly, you're not making any sense. Its calling on "mankind" to bear witness to the fact that Allah is disassociating responsibility from the Mushriken - not telling "mankind" they are being disassociated. Secondly, don't get carried away with the interpretation of "mankind". The word is  "Al-Nas" - which is simply "the people". Sahih international interprets it as "the people". But either way, 'mankind' is not out of place - its the difference between "Mankind! - Allah disassociates Himself from those mushriken who will not amend their treaty with the muslims" and  "O People! Allah disassociates Himself from those mushriken who will not amend their treaty with the muslims". Either works - one is just a bit more grandiose.


Verses 3 and 5 make a general reference to Mushriken. Verse 4 makes an exception for those who have a treaty. Why would you interpret it any other way than as general statements about Mushriken, with an exception for those with a treaty?

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2016 at 10:08am:
3. And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad ) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then
kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.




You expect us to believe that Muhammad intended it to be limited to those Mushriken with whom the Muslims have a treaty, even though he forgot to state this explicitly or even implicitly, and even though his own actions contradict such an interpretation.

Were there any Muslim theologians who interpreted chapter 9 your way in the first century of Islam? Or did they only come up with this lie after they were no longer in a position to slaughter the infidel wherever they found them and had to instead project a more benign image for political reasons?

Quote:
Among the polytheists to whom the muslims had a treaty with, exempt those who had been true to their treaty, then give the rest a certain number of months grace period to reestablish their treaties that they had broken - after which "kill the musrhiken wherever you find them".


Is this consistent with Muhammad's actions? For example in attacking Mecca?
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #217 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 7:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 7:30pm:
Sure there is. You claimed that the "this" in your version was a reference to the entirety of chapter 9. That interpretation is not possible with the version in the OP.


Please explain your logic. And no, nothing hinges on whether or not the verse contains a "this".

And you still haven't addressed the fact that verse 1 completely contradicts your interpretation that the mushriken who have a treaty with the muslims are exempted.

freediver wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 7:30pm:
Why would you interpret it any other way than as general statements about Mushriken, with an exception for those with a treaty?


Because it specifically says its about mushriken with a treaty - in the very first verse.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #218 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 8:28pm
 
Quote:
Please explain your logic.


Quote:
1. Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger () to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.


This is not an all encompassing statement intended to limit the application of the entire chapter. Nor is your version, but it is a bit easier to misrepresent it that way with the mangled English in your version.

Quote:
And you still haven't addressed the fact that verse 1 completely contradicts your interpretation that the mushriken who have a treaty with the muslims are exempted.


No it does not. Happy now?

Quote:
Because it specifically says its about mushriken with a treaty - in the very first verse.


The first verse refers to treaties. It does not say that the entire chapter is about people with a treaty. You only have to look at the rest of the chapter to see that is not what it is about. You are inventing content of the Koran.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #219 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 8:31pm
 
Quote:
1. Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger () to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.


What are the obligations that Muhammad is free from regarding the Mushriken with a treaty? Here's one:

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2016 at 10:08am:
5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then
kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.



Gandalf you never seem to be able to put the entire thing into a coherent message. You can only ever pick out a few words at a time. For example, here is a rational interpretation:

Kill the Mushriken wherever you find them, unless:

a) they convert to Islam and pay Islamic taxes; or

b) they have a treaty - unless Muslims can invent some kind of violation on which to discard the entire treaty; or

c) they come to you as refugees from your slaughtering of their friends and family, seeking protection


Can you do the same with your interpretation, or does all the meaning get lost in obfuscation?
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #220 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 9:07pm
 
Hatred leads to the dark side Freediver. And the dark side fishes in the no-take MPA zones.

Sad
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #221 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 4:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 8:31pm:
Gandalf you never seem to be able to put the entire thing into a coherent message. You can only ever pick out a few words at a time. For example, here is a rational interpretation:

Kill the Mushriken wherever you find them, unless:


That might make sense if that command came in the very first verse, with all the exemptions following after it. Instead of opening the chapter by specifically singling out the mushriken with whom the muslims have a treaty with, and putting them on notice.


freediver wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 8:28pm:
It does not say that the entire chapter is about people with a treaty. You only have to look at the rest of the chapter to see that is not what it is about. You are inventing content of the Koran.


Do you agree that the only mushriken chapter 9 does specifically refer to are those who have a treaty with the muslims? Are we to just presume that after opening the chapter by referring specifically to those mushriken who have a treaty, it then switches to other mushriken without actually saying so? Is this yet another example of FD's Quran version that doesn't really mean what it says?

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Re: chapter 9
Reply #222 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:36pm
 
Quote:
That might make sense if that command came in the very first verse, with all the exemptions following after it. Instead of opening the chapter by specifically singling out the mushriken with whom the muslims have a treaty with, and putting them on notice.


So every verse is like a sub-clause to the previous verse? Are you making this up as you go along?

Quote:
Do you agree that the only mushriken chapter 9 does specifically refer to are those who have a treaty with the muslims?


No. There are several references to Mushriken. Also, it does not make sense for verse 4 to make a specific exception for those with a treaty if the entire chapter is already limited to those who have a treaty and have broken it. The only rational explanation for a general exception for those with a treaty is that the following verse is an even more general reference to Mushriken.

Quote:
Are we to just presume that after opening the chapter by referring specifically to those mushriken who have a treaty, it then switches to other mushriken without actually saying so?


It does say so. Kill the Mushriken, except for the ones you have a treaty with, except if they violated it.

What it does not say is that the entire chapter is restricted to the Mushriken who have a trety and violated it.

Gandalf you never seem to be able to put the entire thing into a coherent message. You can only ever pick out a few words at a time. For example, here is a rational interpretation:

Kill the Mushriken wherever you find them, unless:

a) they convert to Islam and pay Islamic taxes; or

b) they have a treaty - unless Muslims can invent some kind of violation on which to discard the entire treaty; or

c) they come to you as refugees from your slaughtering of their friends and family, seeking protection


Can you do the same with your interpretation, or does all the meaning get lost in obfuscation?
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #223 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:07am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:36pm:
o every verse is like a sub-clause to the previous verse? Are you making this up as you go along?


Um Hello FD - you literally just introduced the notion that this chapter is a set of "sub-clauses" to previous verses in that chapter. I'll remind you:

freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:36pm:
Kill the Mushriken wherever you find them, unless:

a) they convert to Islam and pay Islamic taxes; or

b) they have a treaty - unless Muslims can invent some kind of violation on which to discard the entire treaty; or

c) they come to you as refugees from your slaughtering of their friends and family, seeking protection


And worse, its not even in the order that you put it in. It specifies the mushriken whom the muslims have a treaty with in the very first verse, followed by declaring that those who have been true to that treaty are exempted - before saying "kill the mushriken wherever you find them". Your interpretation quite simply can only make sense if the "kill the mushriken wherever you find them" verse came at the very beginning, after which it sets out the "sub-clauses" for exemption. Instead of coming after the chapter had already specified only the mushriken who had a treaty with the muslims (either upheld or violated) - and then going on and exempting those who had been faithful to the treaty. All coming before the "kill the mushriken" verse.

freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:36pm:
No. There are several references to Mushriken.


Thats not what I asked FD -again: do you agree that the only mushriken chapter 9 does specifically refer to are those who have a treaty with the muslims? Can you find me a specific reference to mushrken to whom no treaty has been made with the muslims? If not, why on earth should we assume that the chapter is about mushriken in general after opening the chapter with specific reference to mushriken with a treaty in the very first verse - and never mentioning any other mushriken?


freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:36pm:
What it does not say is that the entire chapter is restricted to the Mushriken who have a trety and violated it.


It does in effect - by only ever talking about mushriken to whom a treaty has been made -
from the very first verse. You can't reconcile the fact that the chapter never once makes any mention of Mushriken that have no treaty. And you certainly haven't reconciled why in a chapter supposedly about killing all mushriken - treaty or no - it makes any sense at all to open the chapter by specifying mushriken to whom a treaty is made - and never giving any indication that its actually about other mushriken as well.
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #224 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:17am
 
Quote:
Um Hello FD - you literally just introduced the notion that this chapter is a set of "sub-clauses" to previous verses in that chapter. I'll remind you:


Yes Gandalf, based on what the verses say, not what order they appear in.

Are you saying that every verse is like a sub-clause to the previous verse?

Gandalf you never seem to be able to put the entire thing into a coherent message. You can only ever pick out a few words at a time. For example, here is a rational interpretation:

Kill the Mushriken wherever you find them, unless:

a) they convert to Islam and pay Islamic taxes; or

b) they have a treaty - unless Muslims can invent some kind of violation on which to discard the entire treaty; or

c) they come to you as refugees from your slaughtering of their friends and family, seeking protection


Can you do the same with your interpretation, or does all the meaning get lost in obfuscation?

IS this too hard for you Gandalf?
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