Australian Politics Forum - Islam: a pedophile's dream?

Soren

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #210 - Dec 5^th, 2014 at 5:12pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 4^th, 2014 at 10:25pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 4^th, 2014 at 9:58pm:

But nobody has ever said that holy war is specific to Islam or that it was invented by Islam. You come up with this crap to excuse Islam from any responsibility and to dishonestly misrepresent those who are not as spineless, squishy and dishonest as you.

So, then, Soren why are you getting a tizzy in your bonnet when I make the point that Christianity has a long, long, history of waging Holy Wars?

The reality is, everything you hold against Islam, Christianity has done as badly yet you turn a blind eye to it, you get upset when you're reminded of it and attack anybody who dares to make that point. So immature, so silly really but I suppose anal retentiveness does that to you... Roll Eyes

This is simply untrue. Islam and Christianity are vastly different kinds of ideas. Simply look at the difference between societies that are in the Western European mould with their Christian, Enlightened trajectory and countries in the Islamic Arab mould. The difference is stark. A world view that puts love and individual worth at its centre is obviously very different from one that starts out from submission to a unfathomable potentate. Medieval Christianity and Islam may have been similar but the the trajectories of the two belief systems are very different and not at all parallel.

The West has moved on and evolved. It has learned from its mistakes and in many ways - political, social, artistic, environmental, religious etc - it is showing a better way to the rest of the world because of of its core motivations of love and individual worth. Islam is not evolving but is still at the stage where it wants to return to its origins, 1400 years on.

The Australian way - ie Western liberal democratic way of organising society and the relationships of strangers and resolving political, social disputes, finding negotiated common ground, allowing differences to be honestly held, freedoms upheld, individual potential and effort cherished etc are examples to the Islamic world and the rest of the non-Western world. I cannot think of a single genuinely Islamic example that would make Australia or the West better. Open debate shunned, contrary opinion suppressed, freedoms are curtailed, individuals are subordinated to the clan and the tribe. No love, no individual worth.

Love thy god and your neighbour as yourself versus submit to Allah and treat Mohammed as the best of men. These are going take you in obviously different directions as the examples of, say, Scandinavia and Arabia demonstrate

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Brian Ross

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #211 - Dec 5^th, 2014 at 7:32pm

Soren wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 5:12pm:

This is simply untrue. Islam and Christianity are vastly different kinds of ideas.

Rather amazing really, when you consider that Islam is built on the beliefs of Christianity and Judaism, Soren.

Quote:

Simply look at the difference between societies that are in the Western European mould with their Christian, Enlightened trajectory and countries in the Islamic Arab mould.

Mmm, different cultures produce different outcomes, Soren. Who'd have thought it? Roll Eyes

It's like suggesting that 'cause the UK and Japan are both Island nations at the periphery of their respective continents, they will have similar outcomes in their societies. Superficial thinking built around superficial understanding. Roll Eyes

Quote:

The difference is stark. A world view that puts love and individual worth at its centre is obviously very different from one that starts out from submission to a unfathomable potentate. Medieval Christianity and Islam may have been similar but the the trajectories of the two belief systems are very different and not at all parallel.

Not quite true. The major difference is that Europe has suffered no where near the external interference that the Arab world has. And note, I differentiate the Arab world from the rest of the Muslim world, Soren 'cause your view of Islam is that all Muslims are essentially Arabs. It's part of your strawman view of Islam. Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #212 - Dec 5^th, 2014 at 8:18pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 7:32pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 5:12pm:

This is simply untrue. Islam and Christianity are vastly different kinds of ideas.

Rather amazing really, when you consider that Islam is built on the beliefs of Christianity and Judaism, Soren.

Bollocks.

Islam is built on a set of MISUNDERSTANDINGS of Judaism and Christianity.

It is no improvement on either Judaism or Christianity. That shows you just how gigantic a misunderstanding it is.

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freediver

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #213 - Dec 5^th, 2014 at 9:41pm

Quote:

"Christianity" - as in "Christian civilization" has transformed into a irreligious, secular force. There are two sides to it - on the one hand it has brought democracy and freedom and human rights to the nations that created it. On the other hand, it has brought neo-colonialism, oppression and great suffering to most of the third world. Large parts of the non-western world are still reeling from the most horrendous period of genocides and economic rape the world has ever seen.

What did "most of the third world" have before Europe introduced them oppression and suffering?

Did it bring democracy and freedom and human rights to any other nations?

Quote:

This oppression continues to this day with the continued economic pillaging of third world resources - to the detriment of the local populations. Mostly this is done by outsourcing the oppression to corrupt native client regimes, but occasionally direct western intervention rears its ugly head - Iraq being the most blatant in recent years, and most recently - Libya. Fanboys like FD will cheer this on as "fighting for freedom" and thus give it legitimacy.

Is our attempt to establish a democratic government in Iraq just another example of our "continued economic pillaging of third world resources"? How about our fight against ISIS? More pillaging? How about a bit of rape?

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Note here that I am not at all saying that IS is necessarily a case of the oppressed defending against the oppressor - I don't see evidence of that at all. IS is clearly an aggressive and expansionist force in its own right. But it exists in a region, and a world of opposing aggressive and expansionist forces

You mean Iraq's new democracy that they are hell bent on destroying?

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Thus we need to dispense with this nonsense that we are the force of good, combating the forces of evil - such that our involvement in these conflicts are entirely about liberating people from oppression.

Right. It is entirely about our "continued economic pillaging of third world resources." You've been reading Falah's old posts haven't you?

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Yes, but Christianity was only ever used by Western civilisation, starting with Constantine, through the crusades, and into the colonial period. Military powers have used Christianity to consolidate their hold on power, using everything from the divine right of kings to the doctrine of papal infailability to the expansionist colonial project of Christening the primitive races. Christianity is as much an ideology as a religion, and the above doctrines had no theological basis. Despite this, they were held as sacred truths for centuries. Heretics who disagreed were tortured and put to death.
As an ideology used by vested powers, Islam is no different. Since the Iranian revolution in the modern era, we’ve seen Islam used in the same way.

You can't think of any earlier examples?

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To me, there’s no difference between the Ayotollah calling for a millennial struggle against the Great Satan and the US president calling for a coalition to defeat the Axis of Evil. When the holy books get used to sell wars, there is little difference between church and state.

Because only religious people use the concept of evil? Or because the US is just as evil as it's enemies?

Quote:

It's like suggesting that 'cause the UK and Japan are both Island nations at the periphery of their respective continents, they will have similar outcomes in their societies. Superficial thinking built around superficial understanding.

Actually it had quite a lot to do with their success. Do you think it is a coincidence that Britain is an Island and that their navy conquered the world, while their main competitors were dealing with hostile neighbours with which they shared a land border?

Quote:

Not quite true. The major difference is that Europe has suffered no where near the external interference that the Arab world has.

Except of course when the Arab world was trying to conquer Europe, and nearly succeeded.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #214 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:29am

freediver wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 9:41pm:

What did "most of the third world" have before Europe introduced them oppression and suffering?

Well lets see, The Americas has civilizations - some very advanced. After Europeans came, they were wiped out. Utterly. China - a once powerful civilization - became a basket case after the Boxer Rebellion. Would you deny that what was probably the greatest genocide the world has ever seen - when King Leopold attempted to seize control of the rubber trade in The Congo - represents Europeans introducing oppression and suffering to that country?

freediver wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 9:41pm:

You mean Iraq's new democracy that they are hell bent on destroying?

Yes. ISIS' openly boast they want to conquer the entire Middle East and North Africa and most of Eastern Europe I believe. And its quite hilarious to think that one of the countries clearly in their firing line (Turkey), is still funding and supporting them. But with a fighting force estimated at around 10 thousand (latest I heard), I guess its not hard to see why many don't take them seriously. Their gains to date mostly consists of capturing uninhabited desert

freediver wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 9:41pm:

Right. It is entirely about our "continued economic pillaging of third world resources." You've been reading Falah's old posts haven't you?

You don't have to draw that conclusion to acknowledge that the US have demonstrated time and time again that they are perfectly willing to support oppressors and help them suppress deomcracy and freedom movements. That is an entirely reasonable basis to conclude that our military interventions are not a force for good and that we are always interested in liberating people from oppression.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49963 At my desk.	Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream? Reply #215 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:38am Quote: Well lets see, The Americas has civilizations - some very advanced. And the Europeans introduced oppression and suffering to these civilisations? What were they like beforehand, other than having civilisations?
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Soren

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #216 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:42am

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 7:32pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 5:12pm:

This is simply untrue. Islam and Christianity are vastly different kinds of ideas.

Rather amazing really, when you consider that Islam is built on the beliefs of Christianity and Judaism, Soren.

Quote:

Simply look at the difference between societies that are in the Western European mould with their Christian, Enlightened trajectory and countries in the Islamic Arab mould.

Mmm, different cultures produce different outcomes, Soren. Who'd have thought it? Roll Eyes

Firstly, Islam is built on a misunderstanding of both Judaism and Christianity, that is why it is not an improvement on either.

Secondly, the cultural difference comes from the religious difference because religion shapes culture. It is not the only influence but it is central and unmistakable. Religion is a soccial and cultural fact.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #217 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:43am

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:38am:

And the Europeans introduced oppression and suffering to these civilisations? What were they like beforehand, other than having civilisations?

Umm wait FD, is your argument that the Europeans didn't systematically annihilate all the civilizations in South, Central and North America?

Would you agree that King Leopold introduced a great deal of oppression and suffering to The Congo?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #218 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 2:56pm

Soren wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:42am:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 7:32pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 5:12pm:

This is simply untrue. Islam and Christianity are vastly different kinds of ideas.

Rather amazing really, when you consider that Islam is built on the beliefs of Christianity and Judaism, Soren.

Quote:

Simply look at the difference between societies that are in the Western European mould with their Christian, Enlightened trajectory and countries in the Islamic Arab mould.

Mmm, different cultures produce different outcomes, Soren. Who'd have thought it? Roll Eyes

Firstly, Islam is built on a misunderstanding of both Judaism and Christianity, that is why it is not an improvement on either.

This is what you claim, Soren. It is not what the believers of Islam claim. Who should we believe? You, an inveterate Islamophobe who persecutes Muslims for their beliefs or the Muslims themselves? Roll Eyes

Quote:

Secondly, the cultural difference comes from the religious difference because religion shapes culture. It is not the only influence but it is central and unmistakable. Religion is a soccial and cultural fact.

Ah, which came first, the chicken or the egg, Soren?

What is "Muslim Culture"? Is it Arabic culture? Persian culture? Central Asian culture? North African culture, West African culture? East African culture? South Asian culture? South East Asian culture? All are very different in fundamental aspects, you seem to believe they are all the same and monolithic for some reason? Oh, that's right, you like arguing against a strawman viewpoint, don't you? Makes it all so much easier, doesn't it? It's like suggesting that Lutherans are representative of all Christians... Roll Eyes

The reality is that it is very much a two way street, Soren. Religion shapes culture, pre-existing culture shapes the religion. Clever, evangelical religions place themselves over the pre-existing culture and absorb it. We are coming up to the holiest festival of Christianity, yet "Christmas" has decidedly pagan roots, now doesn't it, Soren? It may, obstensibly celebrate the birth of Christ but its been laid over the top of the pre-existing non-Christian festivals which occurred in and around mid-winter.

Quote:

The celebratory customs associated in various countries with Christmas have a mix of pagan, pre-Christian, Christian, and secular themes and origins.[28] Popular modern customs of the holiday include gift giving, Christmas music and caroling, an exchange of Christmas cards, church celebrations, a special meal, and the display of various Christmas decorations, including Christmas trees, Christmas lights, nativity scenes, garlands, wreaths, mistletoe, and holly. In addition, several closely related and often interchangeable figures, known as Santa Claus, Father Christmas, Saint Nicholas, and Christkind, are associated with bringing gifts to children during the Christmas season and have their own body of traditions and lore.[29]

[Source

Those customs did not spring from no where, Soren, they came from the pagan and pre-Christian religions. Christianity just cleverly decided, quite blatantly to take them over to enhance it's own festival and gain the allegiance of converts. Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Dec 6^th, 2014 at 3:04pm by Brian Ross »

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Brian Ross

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #219 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 3:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:43am:

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:38am:

And the Europeans introduced oppression and suffering to these civilisations? What were they like beforehand, other than having civilisations?

Umm wait FD, is your argument that the Europeans didn't systematically annihilate all the civilizations in South, Central and North America?

Would you agree that King Leopold introduced a great deal of oppression and suffering to The Congo?

Quote:

It is estimated that during the Spanish conquest of the Americas up to eight million indigenous people died, mainly through disease.[37] Acts of brutality in the Caribbean and the systematic annihilation occurring on the Caribbean islands prompted Dominican friar Bartolomé de las Casas to write Brevísima relación de la destrucción de las Indias ("A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies") in 1552. Las Casas wrote that the indigenous population on the Spanish colony of Hispaniola had been reduced from 400,000 to 200 in a few decades.[38] His works were among those that gave rise to the term Leyenda Negra (Black Legend) to describe anti-Spanish propaganda.[39]

With the initial conquest of the Americas completed, the Spanish implemented the encomienda system. In theory, encomienda placed groups of indigenous peoples under Spanish oversight to foster cultural assimilation and conversion to Christianity, but in practice led to the legally sanctioned exploitation of natural resources and forced labor under brutal conditions with a high death rate. Though the Spaniards did not set out to exterminate the indigenous peoples, believing their numbers to be inexhaustible, their actions led to the annihilation of entire tribes such as the Arawak.[40] In the 1760s, an expedition despatched to fortify California, led by Gaspar de Portolà and Junípero Serra, was marked by slavery, forced conversions and genocide through the introduction of disease.[41]

[Source]
Quote:

Estimates of population decline in the Americas from the first contact with Europeans in 1492 until the turn of the 20th century depend on the estimation of the initial pre-contact population. In the early 20th century, scholars estimated low populations for the pre-contact Americas, with Alfred Kroeber's estimate as low as 8,4 million people in the entire hemisphere. Archaeological findings and a better overview of early censuses have contributed to much higher estimates. Dobyns (1966) estimated a pre-contact population of 90-112 million. Denevan's more conservative estimate was 57.3 million.[18] Russell Thornton (1987) arrived at a figure around 70 million.[19] Depending on the estimate of the initial population, by 1900 the indigenous population can be said to have declined by more than 80%, due mostly to the effects of diseases such as smallpox, measles and cholera, but also violence and warfare by colonizers against the Indians.

[Source]

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Soren

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #220 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 4:12pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 2:56pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:42am:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 7:32pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 5:12pm:

This is simply untrue. Islam and Christianity are vastly different kinds of ideas.

Rather amazing really, when you consider that Islam is built on the beliefs of Christianity and Judaism, Soren.

Quote:

Simply look at the difference between societies that are in the Western European mould with their Christian, Enlightened trajectory and countries in the Islamic Arab mould.

Mmm, different cultures produce different outcomes, Soren. Who'd have thought it? Roll Eyes

Firstly, Islam is built on a misunderstanding of both Judaism and Christianity, that is why it is not an improvement on either.

This is what you claim, Soren. It is not what the believers of Islam claim. Who should we believe? You, an inveterate Islamophobe who persecutes Muslims for their beliefs or the Muslims themselves? Roll Eyes

Look at the societies that are based on Islam today and tell me it's not a gigantic balls up.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream? Reply #221 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 4:12pm Yes Brian, but you have to admit all those native American corpses sure did appreciate all the democracy and freedom the Europeans brought them.
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 43667	Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream? Reply #222 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 4:17pm polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 4:12pm: Yes Brian, but you have to admit all those native American corpses sure did appreciate all the democracy and freedom the Europeans brought them. Ah, makes it easier to convince them that they are now partaking of Freeeeedom.
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Soren

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #223 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 4:17pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 3:08pm:

Quote:

It is estimated that during the Spanish conquest of the Americas up to eight million indigenous people died, mainly through disease.[37] Acts of brutality in the Caribbean and the systematic annihilation occurring on the Caribbean islands prompted Dominican friar Bartolomé de las Casas to write Brevísima relación de la destrucción de las Indias ("A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies") in 1552. Las Casas wrote that the indigenous population on the Spanish colony of Hispaniola had been reduced from 400,000 to 200 in a few decades.[38] His works were among those that gave rise to the term Leyenda Negra (Black Legend) to describe anti-Spanish propaganda.[39]

With the initial conquest of the Americas completed, the Spanish implemented the encomienda system. In theory, encomienda placed groups of indigenous peoples under Spanish oversight to foster cultural assimilation and conversion to Christianity, but in practice led to the legally sanctioned exploitation of natural resources and forced labor under brutal conditions with a high death rate. Though the Spaniards did not set out to exterminate the indigenous peoples, believing their numbers to be inexhaustible, their actions led to the annihilation of entire tribes such as the Arawak.[40] In the 1760s, an expedition despatched to fortify California, led by Gaspar de Portolà and Junípero Serra, was marked by slavery, forced conversions and genocide through the introduction of disease.[41]

[Source]
Quote:

Estimates of population decline in the Americas from the first contact with Europeans in 1492 until the turn of the 20th century depend on the estimation of the initial pre-contact population. In the early 20th century, scholars estimated low populations for the pre-contact Americas, with Alfred Kroeber's estimate as low as 8,4 million people in the entire hemisphere. Archaeological findings and a better overview of early censuses have contributed to much higher estimates. Dobyns (1966) estimated a pre-contact population of 90-112 million. Denevan's more conservative estimate was 57.3 million.[18] Russell Thornton (1987) arrived at a figure around 70 million.[19] Depending on the estimate of the initial population, by 1900 the indigenous population can be said to have declined by more than 80%, due mostly to the effects of diseases such as smallpox, measles and cholera, but also violence and warfare by colonizers against the Indians.

[Source]

ANd now they are getting restitution, support, privileges.

What do the minorities under the Islamic State and the Islamic state of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Nigeria etc get? The sword or a bullet.

The West can and does self-correct. Islam cannot and does not. It is trapped in needing to conform to Mohammed's example.

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Soren

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Re: Islam: a pedophile's dream?
Reply #224 - Dec 6^th, 2014 at 4:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

Yes Brian, but you have to admit all those native American corpses sure did appreciate all the democracy and freedom the Europeans brought them.

Are the Muslim slave traders compensating the blacks of Africa?
No. They are still trading in slaves.

That's the difference, Gandy. The West stopped some centuries ago. Your lot - yes, they are Muslims - are still carrying on with the biz of killing and slave trading because Mohammed did so.

You may be very uncomfortable by this but the Islamic state is very Koran and hadith based. They are not mixing in German folk tales and Aboriginal dreamtime. Their narrative, their explanation and justifications, their appeal to second and third generation Muslims in the West - all come from Islam.

Islam is the answer, innit?

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