Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2010 at 12:43am:


That particular comment was used for something Freediver said that was not related to DV.  You've totally wrenched it out of its context.

In as far as the finger is pointed at Muslims as the only perpetrators of this act then it's being holier than thou ..

- Axle

Umm if you care to read my post yet again.. you will notice that I never mentioned the word MUSLIM. That may possibly be because I'm more concerned with the contravention of Australian law aspect and how the crime in question has been euphemised/hidden/protected within Australia.

Oh and could you please read the topic of the title again .. I am hoping the penny will drop insofar as discussion context is concerned.

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2010 at 12:57am:


I'm not altogether sure that it has been religiously institutionalised. There are articles on the net  from Muslim scholars that don't  take that view. Of course, there may be others who do condone it. But let's be fair about this, and I made a similar point earlier.,you will find a diverse range of opinion - agreeable and disagreeable - in large groups.

And I have already stated that DV is not ok and it is to be denounced.

What I find obnoxious from some commentary here is the  underlying subtext of stereotyping. Muslims aren't one big monolithic group  in which everyone in it thinks the same.

In as far as you have particular Muslim groups or individuals that condone DV , then , sure , speak up against it.

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2010 at 12:57am:



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You were properly quoted and addressed.

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I'm just trying to figure out what you are trying to say Axle. For example, you said the following:

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in reference to someone who promotes the legalisation of domestic violence. I am at a loss to figure out what this means, if not claiming we shouldn't take the moral high ground. Perhaps you should explain, rather than criticising others for having no idea what you are on about.

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How about you stick to the one I actually made then?

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Axle, the finger is being pointed at everyone who promotes wife beating. It's just so happens that muslims are the only people doing so. If you recall, my approach to this is to let Muslims themselves decide what Islam is and to criticise them for their own views. Thus, my criticism of Abu need not have anything at all to do with Islam. He promotes wife beating. I criticise him for it. Simple. You would be hard pressed to find other people promoting wife beating, and I think you would find that Australians in general would be more openly critical of a non-Muslim promoting wife beating than a Muslim promoting it. You in fact demonstrate this. If Abu was just some violent redneck wife beater you would not hold back. But because he is a Muslim you expect everyone to walk on eggshells in case Islam is tainted merely because it's followers (and Muhammed himself) promote domestic violence.

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...unless it is part of a religious indoctrination, in which case you must defend the religion at the same time. It is kind of hard to denounce something when you spend all your time defending it. Even when people completely ignore the fact that Abu is a Muslim and focus only on his promotion of wife beating, you seem compelled to step in and defend Islam and place all kinds of caveates on your criticism before you can bring yourself to actually denounce anything. This is the sort of limp wristed approach to human rights that sees society stand by while the weak get beaten into submission because you are afraid of upsetting or misreprepresenting the wife beaters. You seem to think it is more important to avoid upsetting Muslim men than to protect the victims of domestic violence.

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Abu also takes that view. According to him, domestic violence is not institutionalised. Islam merely allows the 'reasonable' use of force to correct a wife who has stopped listening or rebelled against her husbands commands. Abu is very shy about going into details - what you see here is the culmination of about 30 pages of discussion with him, where he occasionally lets another detail slip, only to find it backfires and makes him look even worse. I suggest that without asking your 'scholars' for the same details of what they actually mean, you don't know what they actually mean. Remember, Islam is more than a religion. It is a state, political, financial and economic system. Islam's representatives should be viewed in the same way as a politicians defending their own set of policies. Anything less is naive.

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According to Abu he is a mainstream Muslim and his views are representative.

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I have  repeatedly explained.

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YOU have made the claim that Islam promotes DV . In fact, you say that it's part and parcel of their religious-political- legal philosophy. That's just a wild claim which you haven't supported. In fact, it seems from what I have found contrary to their position, at least in some quarters.  I found the following link which contradicts your assertion:

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2010/07/11/2950543.htm

I would also add that in a large religion like Islam you will obtain a diversity of opinion, interpretation, practice. This alone circumvents any attempt to tar the lot with one brush.


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Come on mate, your whole diatribe is one gross generalisation.

It's there for anyone to see to scroll back . However, I will render it in a nutshell. You have contended that Islam's a political-religious philosophical system promotes DV.  You have also gone beyond the DV issue and have hystrionically stated that if push came to shove they would all want to see Sharia law introduced -with no evidence that would stand anywhere outside a mob with a noose. We've only got your imaginings of would be the case and maybe some odd conversations you purportedly have had with some Muslims.  

Do you see anything wrong with that? If not, then your not rationally discussing the issue.

As far as I've been able to ascertain from my net searches. There seems to be about 46 "Muslim" countries. Of that lot some have a few elements of this Sharia law, one country says that it has pure Sharia law- Saudi Arabia, and then there's probably Iran.

Yeah right, the Muslim hordes are going to give Australia Sharia law. Also given the fact that they're only about 1% of the population, it's hardly likely, is it?

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Again, I refer you to that link on ABC.net which contradicts your assertion.  I suggest that you read it.

Umm ,no, the finger isn't being pointed at everyone who promotes it, it's being squarely pointed at Muslims as a whole and not particular Muslims . I remind you of the title you gave to this thread - "Wife Beating In Islam"- contradicts what you have said there.

In any case, I had already said near my entry into this thread that if Abu is supporting DV then he is to be criticised for it.  Again, I would point out that Muslims are a diverse lot and obviously not all of them believe that their faith or system condones DV.
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Rubbish.  I have clearly stated that anyone who promotes DV is to be denounced. What part of that don't you understand? I have only taken umbrage where there has been an attempt to stereotype an entire group- which you, unfortunately, do.  

Freediver, you forgot to add that the Muslims eat their children too.  

There is no standing back, as far I know Muslims in Australia are subject to the same laws as everyone else.

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According to Joe from Westboro Baptists his views are mainstream and representative. Do you reckon that we condemn all Christians on what Joe from Westboro says or just Joe and his particular nook of the Christian faith?

If Abu has said what he is accused of saying then he  falls on his own words and the same to anyone who so subscribes. But that's where it ends. Those Muslims who do not condone it should not be tarred

In any case, I had already said near my entry into this thread that if Abu is supporting DV then he is to be criticised for it.  

- Axle

What do you mean IF?? Go back and read this topic .. and the topics surrounding this one. It's unwise to jump into a topic mid stream and start telling other posters who have been travelling along in here for weeks now .. what the state of play is. And your posts to date have done just that.

You state he is to be criticized for it .. but I don't see YOU bothering to look back and read the relevant disturbing posts NOR do I see you bothering to criticise or even challenge such posts.

If anything I've only seen you sit there being apologetic and dismissive. One can hardly be blamed for concluding you're a lazy hypocrite of epic proportions.

Lisa,

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Perhaps Axle is referring to statements of mine like this one:
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Where it's CLEARLY stated Islam does not permit domestic violence and abuse. Your only attempt to hang onto this argument is to try and blur the idea of a disciplinary slap on the wrist with domestic violence, and so far you've failed quite miserably.

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Yeh we can see that...