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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #195 - Jun 29^th, 2010 at 8:10pm

Upon A Current Affair tonight, there was Fred Nile walking the streets of a very 'muslimised' suburb in Sydney, telling Muslims that he was pushing for legislation for 'Banning the Burqa'.
Now this is where I get embarressed to be an Australian.
Besides seeing a bigotted man use Christianity to his own ends, I see him/Christianity use 'Politics' against Mohommedism ...specifically those in Sydney. Here goes the same old 'Religious Conflict' between the Monotheisms, this time, over here in Oz.
How dare Christians exploit other people's views to their own ends.
Where do they get off thinking that everyone else shares their 'Christian views/beliefs/etc' ?
Maybe they are jealous of all the attention that the Islamic community are getting and are feeling left out ?
None-the-less I think Fred Nile and Christians should be 'banned' from something that doesn't involve them.

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locutius

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #196 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 10:10am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 29^th, 2010 at 1:32pm:

Quote:

What set my alarm bells going was the fact that he thought music should be banned and defended Osama Bin Laden

In Islam there is the Quran and Hadith. The Quran is the word of God, and the Hadith are narrations by the companions of Muhammad and were compiled after his death - in some cases hundreds of years after. Stoning for adultery, the forbidding of music etc - these are all Hadith. Shia and Sunni Muslims have different Hadith, but all have the same Quran. Many Hadith contradict the Quran.

Suicide bombings are forbidden by the Quran, but extremists manage to twist Hadith to suit their own purposes. Most of the Talibani laws were based on Hadith, as are those in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries.

Here are some verses from the Quran relating to suicide:

Quote:

(2:195) You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

(4:29) O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

Cat Stevens (Yusef Islam) bought into the 'music is forbidden' thing for years. Only recently has he started using guitar and other instruments in his singing.

This is something that was also debated extensively...how can a human document contradict a accepted (supposedly) devine document. In every case shouldn't the human document bow unequivocally to the document of higher authority....therefore there can be no real contradiction.

And yet, and yet these grey areas repeatedly crop up allowing a wide range of tribal behaviours within Islam and recieving no criticism from the inside as a matter of doctrine.

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locutius

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #197 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 10:16am

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 29^th, 2010 at 8:10pm:

Upon A Current Affair tonight, there was Fred Nile walking the streets of a very 'muslimised' suburb in Sydney, telling Muslims that he was pushing for legislation for 'Banning the Burqa'.
Now this is where I get embarressed to be an Australian.
Besides seeing a bigotted man use Christianity to his own ends, I see him/Christianity use 'Politics' against Mohommedism ...specifically those in Sydney. Here goes the same old 'Religious Conflict' between the Monotheisms, this time, over here in Oz.
How dare Christians exploit other people's views to their own ends.
Where do they get off thinking that everyone else shares their 'Christian views/beliefs/etc' ?
Maybe they are jealous of all the attention that the Islamic community are getting and are feeling left out ?
None-the-less I think Fred Nile and Christians should be 'banned' from something that doesn't involve them.

As much as I'd like to see Fred Nile banned from leaving his house. He is free to speak his mind and luckily at least show us what a complete and utter wanker actually look like.

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muso

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #198 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 11:15am

freediver wrote on Jun 29^th, 2010 at 6:17pm:

muso wrote on Jun 29^th, 2010 at 10:22am:

locutius wrote on Jun 29^th, 2010 at 9:18am:

Exactly...The other thing about this political system called Islam is the authority that is, according to other Muslims that have posted here, automatic, autocratic and universially recognised and the obligations of obediance that are inherited by followers of Islam and a Caliphate.

IMHO, the Muslims who have posted here are not exactly representative of the whole. Converts to any world view generally get the wrong end of the stick and go off like a headless chook.

What set my alarm bells going was the fact that he thought music should be banned and defended Osama Bin Laden.

- and if you believe that Muslims don't make friends outside their faiths, well I know for a fact that it's not true.

You've been given a bum steer, mate. Most Muslims would not agree with them.

It's no worse than Roman Catholicism.

You are confusing Islam with Muslims. Everyone is a hyporcrit. There is a Muslim guy at work who seems to do everything wrong. This doesn't mean Islam is a laid back ideology. He acknowledges himself as a 'bad' Muslim. Which makes me wonder what he would do if people he regarded as 'good' Muslims started asking him to do bad things. It's like it was designed to get the Hitlers to flaot to the top.

Ok, fair enough. So would you take the same approach for Christianity? Let's not be guilty of confusing Christians with Christianity. Judge it as it is written, not as it's practiced? It's only fair if that's how you're going to treat Islam.

And while you're at it, get the most extremist Christian whacko fundamentalist possible to interpret the Bible. Then you'd probably find that when it comes to present the looney tunes nut-job grand prize, it would be actually be very difficult to pick a clear winner between the two branches of Abrahamic monotheism.

If you really want to emulate the forum, you should really get a Muslim (or even a Militant Atheist) to give a distorted view of Christianity and quote it totally out of context.

No. That wouldn't be fair, would it?

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« Last Edit: Jun 30^th, 2010 at 11:21am by muso »

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freediver

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #199 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 6:50pm

Quote:

Ok, fair enough. So would you take the same approach for Christianity? Let's not be guilty of confusing Christians with Christianity. Judge it as it is written, not as it's practiced? It's only fair if that's how you're going to treat Islam.

Actually, I prefer to judge both by the ideology as it is defined by the followers. There is all sorts of strange things in the Koran. Instead, I asked Abu about it. What he said caused me a lot of concern.

My point in bringing this up is that it is the Islamic ideology, not Muslims directly, that we have been criticising.

Quote:

And while you're at it, get the most extremist Christian whacko fundamentalist possible to interpret the Bible. Then you'd probably find that when it comes to present the looney tunes nut-job grand prize, it would be actually be very difficult to pick a clear winner between the two branches of Abrahamic monotheism.

The difference is that you don't get mainstream Christians calling themselves 'bad' Christians in comparison to the lunatics and waiting for one of these whackjobs to sieze control so that they can be forced into line. It is not just the extremisim of people like Abu that is the problem, it is the sheer number of them, and the fact that the moderates defer to them rather than keeping them in line. Abu does not come across as a lunatic. He goes to great lengths to conceal the extremism of his views. He is rational enough despite his belief to realise which bits of it we ought to be shielded from.

Quote:

No. That wouldn't be fair, would it?

Which is why I asked an actual Muslim about Islam.

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mozzaok

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #200 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 7:32pm

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 29^th, 2010 at 8:10pm:

Upon A Current Affair tonight, there was Fred Nile walking the streets of a very 'muslimised' suburb in Sydney, telling Muslims that he was pushing for legislation for 'Banning the Burqa'.
Now this is where I get embarressed to be an Australian.
Besides seeing a bigotted man use Christianity to his own ends, I see him/Christianity use 'Politics' against Mohommedism ...specifically those in Sydney. Here goes the same old 'Religious Conflict' between the Monotheisms, this time, over here in Oz.
How dare Christians exploit other people's views to their own ends.
Where do they get off thinking that everyone else shares their 'Christian views/beliefs/etc' ?
Maybe they are jealous of all the attention that the Islamic community are getting and are feeling left out ?
None-the-less I think Fred Nile and Christians should be 'banned' from something that doesn't involve them.

It is absolutely the most embarrassing thing, to have wackos like Fred Niles pushing for a cause that you believe is right, because that gets the cause marginalised as being in the realm of the wackos, when this particular issue should not be.
The thing about banning the burqa, is wrong, it should just be a general rule about not going masked in public, and balaclavas, or people walking down the street in full face helmets, would fall under the same ban.

It is just about people showing enough respect and consideration for their fellow citizens, to accept face to face contact as a fair and reasonable expectation, in a free and open society.

I would be equally affronted by christians wearing face coverings as anyone else, as this is most definitely not a religious question for me.
The fact that the resistance comes from a group that is religious, some of whom seek to isolate it's female members from any face to face contact, is not irrelevant, but it is neither the determining factor either.
It is the behaviour of this group that has brought this issue to a head.

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freediver

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #201 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 7:35pm

I don't have an issue with face covering either. It is fine for skiing, or getting around on a motorbike, or fancy dress, or breaking and entering, so why not as a religious expression also?

There are very clear boundaries where face covering is specifically prhibited and this is justified. A blanket ban is not. Otherwise we will end up needing a licence to wear sunglasses. Carefull what you wish for.

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mozzaok

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #202 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 8:00pm

Sorry FD, but we have been well and truly over this, facial contact is normal in our society, wearing masks is not.
Ours society already sets rules for standards of dress, and we all accept those, but now we have to address this new issue of masking one's face in public because a new set of migrants has said, once more, that we should make special allowances for them, that we should change our sensibilities to suit them, that we should respect their values above our own, and I do not go along with that.

If catholic nuns masked up, my objections would be the same.

I also disagree with the contention that any well balanced human being would ever feel the need to mask up in public, and the claim of it being a woman's choice is a fallacious argument.
If it were just a choice that a person may choose of their own free will, then it's prevalence would not be restricted to a small number of females from one particular religious group.

Their reasoning is that they feel less "perved on" if they are masked up.
It certainly does not make them less "looked at", because publicly declaring your separateness, and difference from the society you are in, by masking up, would actually draw more looks than being just another face in the crowd.
So their wearing a mask is a statement from them that all men will have sexual intentions towards them, if they see their faces, and I find that argument pretty uncompelling.

I firmly believe that men imposed this dress code onto women they considered as possessions, a very long time ago, and people who cling to this anachronistic custom, are helping to isolate and subjugate women, either intentionally, or unintentionally.

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freediver

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #203 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 9:04pm

Quote:

Sorry FD, but we have been well and truly over this, facial contact is normal in our society, wearing masks is not.

So we have the freedom to be normal, but not to be wierd?

Quote:

Ours society already sets rules for standards of dress, and we all accept those, but now we have to address this new issue of masking one's face in public because a new set of migrants has said, once more, that we should make special allowances for them

It is not special. It is a fundamental human right. Our society has never had a rule banning face masks, except in very specific circumstances where it is justified.

Quote:

that we should change our sensibilities to suit them

WTF?

Quote:

I also disagree with the contention that any well balanced human being would ever feel the need to mask up in public

So freedom should only be extended to the 'well balanced'?

Quote:

and the claim of it being a woman's choice is a fallacious argument

I agree. Women are incapable making their own decision and need a man to tell them what to do. But what if a man wants to mask up, or dress as a woman?

Quote:

Their reasoning is that they feel less "perved on" if they are masked up.

So you think we should only grant people freedom if you approve of their motives? How do you know what motivates Muslim women, and how do you know they are all the same?

Quote:

It certainly does not make them less "looked at", because publicly declaring your separateness, and difference from the society you are in, by masking up, would actually draw more looks than being just another face in the crowd.

I'm sure they would appreciate your concern. Another man telling them how to live their life.

Quote:

So their wearing a mask is a statement from them that all men will have sexual intentions towards them, if they see their faces, and I find that argument pretty uncompelling.

So now they need to make a compelling argument to maintain their rights? BTW, you have read an aweful lot into their actions. Has it ever occurred to you to simply ask these women why they do it, rather than telling them? It's really not that hard. Surely it is the least you could do before destroying their rights.

Quote:

I firmly believe that men imposed this dress code onto women they considered as possessions, a very long time ago, and people who cling to this anachronistic custom, are helping to isolate and subjugate women, either intentionally, or unintentionally.

So you want to deny them freedom because their choice subjugates women? Isn't this the exact same argument Abu makes for banning women from wearing revealing clothing? What makes you think it sounds any more convincing coming from you?

Choose any item of clothing, and no doubt a man has forced a woman to wear it. Since when is that a valid reason for banning women from wearing it in order to protect them from men who would tell them what they can and cannot wear?

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47563 At my desk.	Re: Ban the Burqa Reply #204 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 9:09pm Do any of you realise how smug an sanctimonious you sound, telling women what they can and cannot wear because you think it is protecting them from men who would tell them what they can and cannot wear?
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mozzaok

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #205 - Jun 30^th, 2010 at 11:51pm

Well while you are sticking up for freedom, for freedom's sake, maybe you could also campaign for a man's right to beat his wife, if she accepts it of her own free will. Grin

It is obviously her right to give her husband the right to treat her that way, if she so chooses, and how dare we in this country try and impose our standards onto them.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39540 Gender:	Re: Ban the Burqa Reply #206 - Jul 1^st, 2010 at 8:11am I wonder if france, denmark and sweden could turn the clock back 20 years that they would ban the burqa, minarets and make immigration to those who will NOT assimilate very much harder ? I think they would.
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muso

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #207 - Jul 1^st, 2010 at 9:47am

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2010 at 6:50pm:

It is not just the extremisim of people like Abu that is the problem, it is the sheer number of them, and the fact that the moderates defer to them rather than keeping them in line. Abu does not come across as a lunatic. He goes to great lengths to conceal the extremism of his views. He is rational enough despite his belief to realise which bits of it we ought to be shielded from.

I agree with most of what you say there, but if he's so deferred to by the bulk of Muslims, why do you think he was banned from Muslim Village?

I know quite a few Muslims in Africa, and without exception, they would certainly not defend some of these extremist views, particularly the one about banning all music, which I find appalling.

There are extremist clerics, but most Muslims distance themselves from them. I spent some time in Indonesia. It's a very tolerant society, though dominated by Islam. I talked to a few people over lunch and the subject changed to Amrozi, the Bali bomber. They all agreed that this guy had a few marbles loose, and it was obviously not a show for my benefit. Extremist Muslims are certainly not welcomed by the bulk of ordinary Indonesians, and the same goes for the Gulf countries. I've never been to Yemen though.

If you want to know how a religion is practiced, don't ask the Imams or the Priests - or the newly converted who are keen to show what good Muslims they are in their own misguided way.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #208 - Jul 1^st, 2010 at 10:20am

muso ????????

Quote:

.......If you want to know how a religion is practiced, don't ask the Imams or the Priests ........

surely those that have studied it have the best idea of HOW is should be practised?
you are saying, the majority have it wrong ?
surely some from muslim village should ahve come here to discuss.
No, they run a closed shop there and they offer up prayers for terrorists.
I call that support.

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It_is_the_Darkness Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4000 in a ReTardis Gender:	Re: Ban the Burqa Reply #209 - Jul 1^st, 2010 at 11:21am A moslem woman was shot in the knee-caps today at Bendigo. ...some things never change.
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