Australian Politics Forum - muslims push for sharia in auss

Mattyfisk

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #90 - Mar 20^th, 2010 at 7:55pm

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2010 at 6:18pm:

Abu seems to think there is one set of rules, and the differences between what states do is down to them not actually following Shariah law.

The stoning bit seems to be universally considered to be part of Shariah law.

Yes - I believe it's in the koran. And Abu may well be right.

But to use another analogy, which state has a purely lassez fairre economy? No one does because - with the exception, perhaps, of the Wild West - it doesn't gell with democracy.

I'd say the same is probably true of Shariah law in the modern world. In Iran, for example, stoning was recently banned because of legal difficulties over the burden of proof and popular outcries.

What's also important to note with the practice of stoning, is that it was first prescribed in Leviticus for crimes such as breaking the Sabbath.

Islam sees itself as the successor of Judeo-Christianity (without reference, I guess, to whomever has not sinned should cast the first stone). Stoning is certainly not a common practice within Muslim countries. The worst, most barbarous country I can think of is Saudi Arabia, which seems to follow a very purist form of Shariah law.

But it's an American ally, so it's safe.

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Soren

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #91 - Mar 20^th, 2010 at 8:20pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 20^th, 2010 at 7:55pm:

The worst, most barbarous country I can think of is Saudi Arabia, which seems to follow a very purist form of Shariah law.

But it's an American ally, so it's safe.

Are we to understand that an American policy of outright elimination of every single odious regime would meet your approval? Are you saying that America's role ought to be to allow only liberal democracies to exist?

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freediver

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #92 - Mar 20^th, 2010 at 9:25pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 20^th, 2010 at 7:55pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2010 at 6:18pm:

Abu seems to think there is one set of rules, and the differences between what states do is down to them not actually following Shariah law.

The stoning bit seems to be universally considered to be part of Shariah law.

Yes - I believe it's in the koran. And Abu may well be right.

But to use another analogy, which state has a purely lassez fairre economy? No one does because - with the exception, perhaps, of the Wild West - it doesn't gell with democracy.

I'd say the same is probably true of Shariah law in the modern world. In Iran, for example, stoning was recently banned because of legal difficulties over the burden of proof and popular outcries.

What's also important to note with the practice of stoning, is that it was first prescribed in Leviticus for crimes such as breaking the Sabbath.

Islam sees itself as the successor of Judeo-Christianity (without reference, I guess, to whomever has not sinned should cast the first stone). Stoning is certainly not a common practice within Muslim countries. The worst, most barbarous country I can think of is Saudi Arabia, which seems to follow a very purist form of Shariah law.

But it's an American ally, so it's safe.

So what's your point? Shariah law is bad, but it's OK because it's so bad that rational people reject it? There are a lot of people dieing in the process of ridding their societies of shariah.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #93 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 8:58am

Soren wrote on Mar 20^th, 2010 at 8:20pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 20^th, 2010 at 7:55pm:

The worst, most barbarous country I can think of is Saudi Arabia, which seems to follow a very purist form of Shariah law.

But it's an American ally, so it's safe.

Are we to understand that an American policy of outright elimination of every single odious regime would meet your approval? Are you saying that America's role ought to be to allow only liberal democracies to exist?

No. America under George Bush said this - with qualifications for their buddies. The two countries that have more to do with the funding, training and supplying of terrorists than anyone else are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

And America brought "Democracy" to Iraq.

But let me put the question to you: are we to understand that you want the outright elimination of everything Islamic?

Freediver, my point's in the post: Shariah law does not necessarily include stoning.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: muslims push for sharia in auss Reply #94 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 9:18am Mattyfisk wrote on Mar 24^th, 2010 at 8:58am: Freediver, my point's in the post: Shariah law does not necessarily include stoning. "Not necessarily"?! No bloody political/legal system should include it at all.
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abu_rashid

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #95 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 9:31am

Actually Karnal, the fault here is with the Muslims who talk about implementing Shari'ah law. This is not Shari'ah law at all. It's merely a few aspects of family and contract law that they mean. They shouldn't use the word Shari'ah law, knowing how susceptible Westerners are to basing their opinions about things on very little knowledge of them.

It's like Aboriginal tribal laws in parts of Australia or Jewish Halachic laws in Britain, they are not actually implementing those law systems, but merely some non-binding parts of them used amongst mutually agreeing parties and having recognition under the common law.

Like with everything else regarding Islam though, we only hear about the supposed mountain, never the molehill that better fits the reality.

Ignorant people are usually ignorant for a reason, because they don't have the capacity to think beyond a very limited scope.

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 92476 Gender:	Re: muslims push for sharia in auss Reply #96 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 9:33am I should have written rarely, Helian, but I can't come to terms with stoning either. I certainly can't defend this one.
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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: muslims push for sharia in auss Reply #97 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 9:43am Quote: It's merely a few aspects of family and contract law that they mean. If it isn't Sharia law, where are these rulings coming from?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #98 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 10:00am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 24^th, 2010 at 9:31am:

Actually Karnal, the fault here is with the Muslims who talk about implementing Shari'ah law. This is not Shari'ah law at all. It's merely a few aspects of family and contract law that they mean. They shouldn't use the word Shari'ah law, knowing how susceptible Westerners are to basing their opinions about things on very little knowledge of them.

That is human nature, Abu. Most (if not all) people (Muslims as well) have strong opinions on a range of subjects (particularly politics) based on the little information available to them. The responsibility is on the informers to inform and not make it a "Western ignorance thing" when they fail to communicate (and no one should imagine the job should be easy).

We all know how susceptible Muslims are to this very human trait themselves and how some are prepared to load themselves up with explosives to demonstrate their opinion.

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abu_rashid

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #99 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 11:26am

Jordan,

Does Australia implement Aboriginal Tribal law? Does Britain implement Jewish Halachic law? No. Just because you take a few non-binding things from a law system doesn't mean you're implementing that law system, it's just ludicrous to claim it is. This is nothing but a "scare campaign".

helian,

Quote:

That is human nature, Abu. Most (if not all) people (Muslims as well) have strong opinions on a range of subjects (particularly politics) based on the little information available to them.

If that were the case, then we'd think they'd have the same strong opinions about Jewish Halachic law or Aboriginal Tribal law, but they don't. In Halachic law for instance did you know that if a man rapes a girl, and it's outside the city limits, then he simply has to marry her, can never divorce her, and must pay her father 50 shekels. Now I don't think anyone believes this part of Halachic law will ever be implemented in Britain, yet they are convinced that Muslims will implement stoning. It's just ridiculous really, and I'm shocked someone such as yourself would be subscribing to and proliferating this garbage.

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Happy

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #100 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 12:14pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 24^th, 2010 at 10:00am:

….
We all know how susceptible Muslims are to this very human trait themselves and how some are prepared to load themselves up with explosives to demonstrate their opinion.

I just hope that OUR, WESTERN way of life is protected from being run over by fast breeding members of any religious order bent on taking over the World.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #101 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 12:34pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 24^th, 2010 at 11:26am:

If that were the case, then we'd think they'd have the same strong opinions about Jewish Halachic law or Aboriginal Tribal law, but they don't. In Halachic law for instance did you know that if a man rapes a girl, and it's outside the city limits, then he simply has to marry her, can never divorce her, and must pay her father 50 shekels. Now I don't think anyone believes this part of Halachic law will ever be implemented in Britain, yet they are convinced that Muslims will implement stoning. It's just ridiculous really, and I'm shocked someone such as yourself would be subscribing to and proliferating this garbage.

Enough of the mock shock and outrage, Abu, we're not kids. I am not proliferating anything about Sharia law.

Fear of Muslims is clearly the reason people are inclined to believe the more outlandish claims about Muslims and Islam. Something that is not helped by Muslims' demanding that cartoonists who dare to depict Muhammad should die, should be murdered.

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jordan484

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Re: muslims push for sharia in auss
Reply #102 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 12:44pm

Quote:

Does Australia implement Aboriginal Tribal law? Does Britain implement Jewish Halachic law? No. Just because you take a few non-binding things from a law system doesn't mean you're implementing that law system, it's just ludicrous to claim it is. This is nothing but a "scare campaign".

Don't avoid my question by asking other questions. Do me the courtesy of answering me first, then I will do you the courtesy of answering your questions.

If these rulings do not come from Sharia law, where do they come from?

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: muslims push for sharia in auss Reply #103 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 12:44pm So are just as docile as the rest here helian. I held out some hope for you, but not anymore.
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: muslims push for sharia in auss Reply #104 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 12:46pm Jordan, lots of things "come from other things" but they are not those things. Panadeine comes from Opium, but it is not opium, hundreds of medicines come from urine but they are not urine. I have answered you already, you simply don't get it, because you're just too simple.
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