Australian Politics Forum - The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia

polite_gandalf

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #120 - Aug 8^th, 2022 at 3:54pm

freediver wrote on Aug 6^th, 2022 at 7:59am:

Quote:

Years ago, FD, I got you to admit that hate speech that can lead to violence should be banned.

Can you quote me?

found this gem from before I joined:

freediver wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:09pm:

Freedom of speech is generally understood to exclude harming others - eg slander, inciting violence. This is where freedom of speech comes into conflict with other basic freedoms and rights. It never excludes the right to criticise other people's beliefs.

Of course you're not saying *YOU* subscribe to this "generally understood" dictum, but lets assume you do (and feel free to correct this).

What do you mean by "inciting violence"?

In this epic thread, you disagreed that making a public call to "behead those who insult the prophet" exceeded the limits of free speech - even in the context of a violent protest. My view was, and continues to be, this was a clear cut case of "inciting violence" - and as such, should be banned.

So again, what do you actually mean by "inciting violence"? In the same thread I got you to admit that "A direct and serious threat to kill someone should be illegal." Personally I consider extremists rampaging through the streets demanding that cartoonists who insult the prophet should be killed as a very "direct and serious threat to kill someone". Especially when we consider that this was literally what was happening in Europe at the time, and that would-be murderers who would happily kill in the name of Islam would know exactly who the protesters were referring to - if not their addresses and phone numbers.

But thats just me.

My point is, I think I have proven that both you and I agree on where freedom of speech ends - namely when it becomes incitement to violence. Its just that we disagree on exactly what constitutes incitement to violence.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #121 - Aug 8^th, 2022 at 5:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 3:54pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 6^th, 2022 at 7:59am:

Quote:

Years ago, FD, I got you to admit that hate speech that can lead to violence should be banned.

Can you quote me?

found this gem from before I joined:

freediver wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:09pm:

Freedom of speech is generally understood to exclude harming others - eg slander, inciting violence. This is where freedom of speech comes into conflict with other basic freedoms and rights. It never excludes the right to criticise other people's beliefs.

Of course you're not saying *YOU* subscribe to this "generally understood" dictum, but lets assume you do (and feel free to correct this).

What do you mean by "inciting violence"?

In this epic thread, you disagreed that making a public call to "behead those who insult the prophet" exceeded the limits of free speech - even in the context of a violent protest. My view was, and continues to be, this was a clear cut case of "inciting violence" - and as such, should be banned.

So again, what do you actually mean by "inciting violence"? In the same thread I got you to admit that "A direct and serious threat to kill someone should be illegal." Personally I consider extremists rampaging through the streets demanding that cartoonists who insult the prophet should be killed as a very "direct and serious threat to kill someone". Especially when we consider that this was literally what was happening in Europe at the time, and that would-be murderers who would happily kill in the name of Islam would know exactly who the protesters were referring to - if not their addresses and phone numbers.

But thats just me.

My point is, I think I have proven that both you and I agree on where freedom of speech ends - namely when it becomes incitement to violence. Its just that we disagree on exactly what constitutes incitement to violence.

That sounds sensible. 18c should be amended to remove other, entirely subjective limits to free speech.

http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/rda1975202/s18c.html

(Had a look at that thread - Lestat, what a unit! Grin

)

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freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #122 - Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:24pm

Quote:

What do you mean by "inciting violence"?

Not "hate speech that can lead to violence".

Basically, you have to convince a jury that that there was a clear and imminent risk of violence, and that a reasonable person would have forseen the violence as a consequence, plus a few other caveats such as public interest, truth etc. Plus, and I am not sure how to work this in, but you would also have to exclude a situation where a person gets assaulted as a result of saying the wrong thing in the wrong pub, and then gets charged with inciting vioence against themselves.

An example: going to a BLM rally, waiting till the violence starts, pointing at the nearest white person, and shouting "OMG, that guy just stabbed three black people".

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #123 - Aug 9^th, 2022 at 12:01pm

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

Not "hate speech that can lead to violence".

why not? Why bother splitting hairs? - if it *DOES* lead to violence, then it is inciting violence - no?

Quote:

Basically, you have to convince a jury that that there was a clear and imminent risk of violence, and that a reasonable person would have forseen the violence as a consequence,

Easy as pie. Just get a popular imam to stand in front of the cameras and declare "gays are scum who should be killed" in a country or community where gays are already under threat - and watch the vigilante killings pile up. Change 'gays' to 'jews', or whatever oppressed minority you like. I suspect prophet-insulting cartoonists might be your personal preference.

That is clearly "hate speech that can lead to violence" - and indeed does lead to violence (there are indisputably heaps of real life stories where these types of things actually happened).

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

An example: going to a BLM rally, waiting till the violence starts, pointing at the nearest white person, and shouting "OMG, that guy just stabbed three black people".

You are stubbornly sticking to your guns on "fire in a theatre"- type statements as being the only possibility here, and refusing to contemplate the possibility that actual hate speech can, and does, lead to violence.

Or maybe you do. Would it be fair to describe your position as "free speech is so important that it must be protected at all costs - *EVEN IF* it can lead to violence"?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #124 - Aug 9^th, 2022 at 3:58pm *
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Yadda

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #125 - Aug 9^th, 2022 at 6:51pm

'HATE SPEECH' AND SUCH......

If a non-moslem, within a 1st world nation, accuses a moslem of wrongdoing [IN LAW], that is an accusation IN LAW.

But if a non-moslem in an ISLAMIC law jurisdiction accuses a moslem of wrongdoing, the non-moslem commits an offence against ISLAMIC law,
AND, AND, AND, the non-moslem in making his accusation, is committing A HATE CRIME [against all moslems].

Today, moslems want every accusation against a moslem [by a non-moslem] to be always regarded, IN LAW, as A HATE CRIME [just like they do in ISLAMIC law jurisdictions],
even in 1st world nations.

In an ISLAMIC law jurisdiction, a disbeliever is not permitted to bring an accusation IN LAW against a believer.

100% true.

OBSERVATION;
The crime, or non-crime, is committed, 'In the eye of the beholder' [of those who judge the circumstances].

e.g.
In the U.S. in 2020, crimes of murder and of arson against property, by BLM supporters, were described by a CNN reporter as 'Mostly Peaceful'.

In the U.S. in 2020, we can all see, WOKE, LEFTIST, PROGRESSIVE values on display.

----- >

CNN Claims Kenosha Protests Are ‘Fiery But Mostly Peaceful’ As City Burns Behind Reporter

01 min
August 25th, 2020
https://youtu.be/klVhCkhOTRQ

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« Last Edit: Aug 9^th, 2022 at 6:56pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #126 - Aug 9^th, 2022 at 9:25pm

Quote:

why not? Why bother splitting hairs?

Freedom of speech.

Quote:

if it *DOES* lead to violence, then it is inciting violence - no?

For want of a nail.

Quote:

Easy as pie. Just get a popular imam to stand in front of the cameras and declare "gays are scum who should be killed" in a country or community where gays are already under threat - and watch the vigilante killings pile up. Change 'gays' to 'jews', or whatever oppressed minority you like. I suspect prophet-insulting cartoonists might be your personal preference.

You are right. Islam is incompatible with freedom of speech.

Quote:

You are stubbornly sticking to your guns on "fire in a theatre"- type statements as being the only possibility here, and refusing to contemplate the possibility that actual hate speech can, and does, lead to violence.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #127 - Aug 11^th, 2022 at 4:18pm feel free to provide a readable and coherent answer FD. You can start with explaining what "for want of a nail" - in this context means.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49890 At my desk.	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #128 - Aug 11^th, 2022 at 5:50pm Are you familiar with the proverb, and the legal principle based on it?
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 49896 Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #129 - Aug 12^th, 2022 at 12:34pm
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #130 - Aug 15^th, 2022 at 12:42pm freediver wrote on Aug 11^th, 2022 at 5:50pm: Are you familiar with the proverb, and the legal principle based on it? No. Do please elaborate. Preferably with reference to the topic we are discussing.
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Frank

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #131 - Aug 15^th, 2022 at 1:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 15^th, 2022 at 12:42pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 11^th, 2022 at 5:50pm:

Are you familiar with the proverb, and the legal principle based on it?

No. Do please elaborate. Preferably with reference to the topic we are discussing.

“For the want of a nail the shoe was lost,
For the want of a shoe the horse was lost,
For the want of a horse the rider was lost,
For the want of a rider the battle was lost,
For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe-nail.”

― Benjamin Franklin

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 49896 Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #132 - Aug 15^th, 2022 at 1:10pm Brian Ross wrote on Mar 17^th, 2021 at 3:17pm: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Free speech
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #133 - Aug 16^th, 2022 at 1:43pm Here you go FD, I'll give you a conversation starter: hate speech that leads to violence is not incitement to violence. discuss...
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Yadda

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #134 - Aug 16^th, 2022 at 2:36pm

@ Reply #133,

Discuss [blind] hatred [e.g. hate speech 'in the mosque'] and its consequences you say ?

AL WALAA WAL BARAA

The principle religious precept of ISLAM [and of ISLAMIC law],
is the [religiously justified] HATRED of every disbeliever, and of every person who rejects the PRIMACY of ISLAMIC law.

And, ISLAMIC religious strictures, plainly state, that every moslem, to remain a moslem,
must also hate, and fight, and kill disbelievers, until Allah's religion is followed by everyone ?

.

HATRED OF ALL NON-MOSLEMS, is PURE mainstream ISLAMIC doctrine.

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Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1608864099/1#1
Quote:

ARGUMENT;
The religious strictures of ISLAM require the follower of ISLAM;
1/ to love and to serve Allah's religion,
and,
2/ to hate all things which are deemed to be, NON-ISLAMIC.

".....loving and hating for the sake of Allah."

The religious strictures of ISLAM itself, determine what type of life is acceptable to ISLAM. [a not uncommon situ, for followers of any religion]

And these religious strictures, 'nominate' [for the edification of the believer] every item [and idea] in this world, as being either ISLAMICALLY approved, or not.

And those 'things' which are not ISLAMICALLY approved, are to be rejected and hated, by the follower of ISLAM.

INCLUDING, all disbelievers. e.g. Koran 60.4

.

FURTHER;

WWW search....
AL WALAA WAL BARAA, "Islamic jurists"

Essentially, it translates as;

".....loving and hating for the sake of Allah."

It means, LOVING your moslem brothers. .....as per ISLAMIC religious precepts.

It means, HATING the non-moslem. .....as per ISLAMIC religious precepts.

It means, being a moslem.

It means, OBEYING ISLAMIC LAW !

Pure Al-wala' wa-l-bara' in the Koran....

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred...."
Koran 58.22

"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."
Koran 9.23

.

ANOTHER EVIDENCE;

IMAGE.....

Self-Described ‘Islamic Bonnie and Clyde’ Guilty of Plot to Attack ‘Non-Believers,’

.

Oct 06, 2018

Quote:

By Christine Douglass-Williams on Oct 06, 2018

Australia: “Islamic Bonnie and Clyde” plotted New Year’s Eve jihad stabbing attack on non-Muslims

A couple who described themselves as an “Islamic Bonnie and Clyde” have been found guilty in an Australian court of planning a New Year’s Eve terrorist stabbing attack on non-Muslims.

Sameh Bayda and Alo-Bridget Namoa, both 21, were charged last year with the offences.

Now the two will enter prison, where they will likely join forces with other jihadists.

In February 2016, Sameh Bayda said to investigators that she wanted to do an “Islamic Bonnie and Clyde on the Kaffir.”

Prosecutors alleged Bayda.....said each believed they had a “religious obligation to attack non-believers”.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/10/australia-islamic-bonnie-and-clyde-plotted-ne...

NOW TELL ME AGAIN.....

What justification did that young "Aussie" moslem couple give,
to explain their want, to kill their 'fellow' Australians ???

------- >

Quote:

Prosecutors alleged Bayda.....said each believed they had a “religious obligation to attack non-believers”.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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