Australian Politics Forum

crocodile Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6682 Gender:	Re: Pell walks Reply #15 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:12am John Smith wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 10:13am: nope ... i don't agree. He covered up abuse and should be jailed for it He wasn't charged with that.
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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #16 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:14am

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 10:21am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 10:20am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 10:13am:

nope ... i don't agree. He covered up abuse and should be jailed for it

That wasn't what he was charged with. They can charge him with that now

Spot

Wasn't there a plan to release someything from the RC to that effect?

I thought so but it disappeared

Spot

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 72761 Gender:	Re: Pell walks Reply #17 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:15am crocodile wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:12am: John Smith wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 10:13am: nope ... i don't agree. He covered up abuse and should be jailed for it He wasn't charged with that. he should have been
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Aussie

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #18 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:19am

In an earlier Thread of last year I wrote:

Quote:

The bloke on the left was addressing the ultimate question which is basically what role does an Appeal Court have when the question is put to it that the verdict of the Jury is under attack as being perverse. I would have answered that this way.

"It is long established that a Jury verdict can properly be appealed as this one is on the basis that the evidence does not support a finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And yes, that does place this Court in the position of having to review all the evidence as we have done and then consider that question. Your responsibility as an appeal court cannot be absolved by simply saying that it is the job of the Jury to arrive at conclusions of fact and it is all over door shut......because the High Court has given you the duty of looking at that verdict and then testing it against the weight of each bit of evidence and the entirety of it."

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 37824 Gender:	Re: Pell walks Reply #19 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:25am The High Court put it another way. (Its Brief Statement is to be found in the link.) Link.
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21113 A cat with a view	Re: Pell walks Reply #20 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:29am Good decision. Yadda said.... Quote: IMO, Pell's conviction was fundamentally unsafe. No person should be convicted in a court of law, in Australia, on the evidence accusation of ONE witness. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1551687942/5#5 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1565844268/19#19
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Captain Nemo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8650 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Pell walks Reply #21 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:37am For all the difficulties ... I think a jury system where 12 people good and true sit for days hearing evidence and come to a conclusion about guilt or innocence is the best system. To have a small number of 'overpaid bookworms' overturn the verdict is, in my opinion, a bad result.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #22 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:37am

Yadda wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:29am:

Good decision.

Yadda said....

Quote:

IMO, Pell's conviction was fundamentally unsafe.

No person should be convicted in a court of law, in Australia, on the evidence accusation of ONE witness.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1551687942/5#5

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1565844268/19#19

It was one person's word against another's.

Very strange.

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Aussie

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #23 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:42am

Captain Nemo wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:37am:

For all the difficulties ... I think a jury system where 12 people good and true sit for days hearing evidence and come to a conclusion about guilt or innocence is the best system.

To have a small number of 'overpaid bookworms' overturn the verdict is, in my opinion, a bad result. Sad

Look at the other side of that same coin. How could 12 people good and true come to the guilty decision beyond a reasonable doubt given the totality of the evidence, including what has been described as 'opportunity' evidence? My conclusion is that inadvertently, they allowed a bias against the Institution (which is obviously guilty) to assuage their mind into the guilty verdict against Pell. In other words, "This bastard is guilty of something just like the Church is, so cop this, Pell. You'll do as the sacrificial lamb."

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Captain Nemo

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #24 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:45am

Aussie wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:42am:

Captain Nemo wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:37am:

For all the difficulties ... I think a jury system where 12 people good and true sit for days hearing evidence and come to a conclusion about guilt or innocence is the best system.

To have a small number of 'overpaid bookworms' overturn the verdict is, in my opinion, a bad result. Sad

Look at the other side of that same coin. How could 12 people good and true come to the guilty decision beyond a reasonable doubt given the totality of the evidence, including what has been described as 'opportunity' evidence? My conclusion is that inadvertently, they allowed a bias against the Institution (which is obviously guilty) to assuage their mind into the guilty verdict against Pell. In other words, "This bastard is guilty of something just like the Church is, so cop this, Pell. You'll do as the sacrificial lamb."

That's possible, but I'd rather have a system where the verbal and non-verbal indicators are judged over a period rather than some panel who were not there to experience the whole trial up close and personal.

"It's the vibe." ?

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Yadda

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #25 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 12:00pm

Captain Nemo wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 11:37am:

For all the difficulties ... I think a jury system where 12 people good and true sit for days hearing evidence and come to a conclusion about guilt or innocence is the best system.

To have a small number of 'overpaid bookworms' overturn the verdict is, in my opinion, a bad result. Sad

There wasn't enough evidence for the jury [the 12 people good and true], to come to any reasonable and safe decision to convict.

The judge was a complete goose imo, to allow the jury to proceed to any legal 'determination'.

The jury convicted Pell on the accusation [as 'evidence'] of one person.

There was no other hard evidence provided, to substantiate the accusation [as 'evidence'] of one person.

This court case was purely a case of one accuser, ....and one person [the person being accused], denying the accusation.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Aussie

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #26 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 12:02pm

Quote:

That's possible, but I'd rather have a system where the verbal and non-verbal indicators are judged over a period rather than some panel who were not there to experience the whole trial up close and personal.

"It's the vibe." ?

Yes, but that ignores the reality that one person might be a very very convincing liar. The basic point is.....guilt HAS to be established beyond reasonable doubt. That is impossible if there is acceptable uncontradicted other evidence which puts in doubt the version of the 'convincing liar.'

I have long been a critic of (especially) Magistrates who, by some voodoo beyond my ken, found that a Copper was telling the truth and a Defendant who disagreed with the Copper, was not....a one v one scenario, but for reasons incomprehensible, the Beak would pull out the old chestnut, "I prefer the evidence of Constable Plod over the Defendant....convicted."

This High Court decision is a very good and timely reminder to those Judges at lower levels that guilt MUST be established beyond reasonable found and that includes being able to cast aside available arguments (based on evidence) which put the Crown case in question.

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President Elect, The Mechanic

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #27 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 12:11pm

How this came to this I'll never know...

there was never any "Hard Evidence" for this to go to trial in the first place...

and what ever he may or may not have done in regards to anything else during this life had NOTHING to do with this case...

straight away... again... people are saying .. oh... but what about the coverup of peados in the church...

has this case got anything to do with that???

NO!

He was originally convicted of two counts of kiddy fiddling...

the "other" guy is dead...

He went to his grave always denying that anything had ever happened... He said that Pell had never touched them...

as for Pell now... He is innocent of the crime that he spent over 12 months in Jail for...

who's going to pay him compensation??

maybe he should start civil action as well?

I think he'll retire from the church and go away and die in some quiet corner... or maybe he'll surprise everyone and go back to Rome...

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96730 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Pell walks Reply #28 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 12:13pm In the wild west he would have been hanged after the first trial. I never thought there was enough evidence - it was one man's word against another.
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Fuzzball Gold Member Offline Posts: 6381 Australia Gender:	Re: Pell walks Reply #29 - Apr 7^th, 2020 at 12:15pm Gnads wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 10:24am: John Smith wrote on Apr 7^th, 2020 at 10:13am: nope ... i don't agree. He covered up abuse and should be jailed for it Yep I agree that he should have been convicted for his part in covering up for paedophile abusing priests. And he definitely did that. Agree 100%
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