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Aussie

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #345 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 2:04pm

Quote:

I accept the High Court found Pell's conviction unjust and overturned it based on the evidence presented in his trial....However in forming my own opinion I can weigh all the accusations and known history of George Pell to form my opinion (Or do you claim I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts)....Only a complete idiot would not have known about the abuse going on under his nose and Pell is not an idiot???

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

So.....if you were on that Jury, you would have convicted Pell because he must (in your opinion) have known that others were abusing kids, even though he had not?

Yes or no, Phil?

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 113061 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Pell walks Reply #346 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 2:07pm Where is full interview with Bolt? I can only find 38 seconds of it here: https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6148718483001
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philperth2010

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #347 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 2:41pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 2:04pm:

Quote:

I accept the High Court found Pell's conviction unjust and overturned it based on the evidence presented in his trial....However in forming my own opinion I can weigh all the accusations and known history of George Pell to form my opinion (Or do you claim I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts)....Only a complete idiot would not have known about the abuse going on under his nose and Pell is not an idiot???

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

So.....if you were on that Jury, you would have convicted Pell because he must (in your opinion) have known that others were abusing kids, even though he had not?

Yes or no, Phil?

If I was on the jury the question you pose would have been irrelevant and not even put to me to consider....My point is I am entitled to weigh every accusation and known fact in forming my opinion, I am not constrained to only consider evidence put forward in the trial....I also question your claim that Pell did not know that others were abusing kids under his leadership when witness have testified Pell was told of abuse and brushed aside such allegations....You also failed to answer if you believe I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts???

Huh

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/may/21/vatican-official-george-p...

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Rider

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #348 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 2:44pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 2:04pm:

Quote:

I accept the High Court found Pell's conviction unjust and overturned it based on the evidence presented in his trial....However in forming my own opinion I can weigh all the accusations and known history of George Pell to form my opinion (Or do you claim I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts)....Only a complete idiot would not have known about the abuse going on under his nose and Pell is not an idiot???

Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

So.....if you were on that Jury, you would have convicted Pell because he must (in your opinion) have known that others were abusing kids, even though he had not?

Yes or no, Phil?

Yes a unanimous decision by the high court. It is a shameful indictment of Victoria's police force, prosecutors, judges .... oh, and of course, the feral dogs in the abc and most every other media snivelling schitt weasel.

This was not the way to atone for the disgraceful crimes committed. A couple of pointy headed judges need to resign.

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #349 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:19pm

Quote:

If I was on the jury the question you pose would have been irrelevant and not even put to me to consider....My point is I am entitled to weigh every accusation and known fact in forming my opinion, I am not constrained to only consider evidence put forward in the trial....I also question your claim that Pell did not know that others were abusing kids under his leadership when witness have testified Pell was told of abuse and brushed aside such allegations....You also failed to answer if you believe I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts???

Huh Huh

Believe what you like Phil. Come to whatever opinion you prefer. Personally, I have zero faith that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden or that there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, but that's just me, I guess.

So, having answered your question, how about the same courtesy? If you were on that Jury, would you have convicted Pell of the charges made against him?

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philperth2010

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #350 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:38pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:19pm:

Quote:

If I was on the jury the question you pose would have been irrelevant and not even put to me to consider....My point is I am entitled to weigh every accusation and known fact in forming my opinion, I am not constrained to only consider evidence put forward in the trial....I also question your claim that Pell did not know that others were abusing kids under his leadership when witness have testified Pell was told of abuse and brushed aside such allegations....You also failed to answer if you believe I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts???

Huh Huh

Believe what you like Phil. Come to whatever opinion you prefer. Personally, I have zero faith that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden or that there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, but that's just me, I guess.

So, having answered your question, how about the same courtesy? If you were on that Jury, would you have convicted Pell of the charges made against him?

You answered SFA mate and instead made an off the cuff remark insinuating I have based my opinion on emotion not facts which is bullshit....If I was a juror on Pell's trial I have no idea what verdict I would have reached based only on the facts presented, however the witness (you believe is a liar and fraud) was apparently very believable and had no ulterior motive to pursue Pell over false allegations....I have every right to believe in Pell's guilt and accept the accusations made against him!!!

Roll Eyes

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Aussie

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #351 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:45pm

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:19pm:

Quote:

If I was on the jury the question you pose would have been irrelevant and not even put to me to consider....My point is I am entitled to weigh every accusation and known fact in forming my opinion, I am not constrained to only consider evidence put forward in the trial....I also question your claim that Pell did not know that others were abusing kids under his leadership when witness have testified Pell was told of abuse and brushed aside such allegations....You also failed to answer if you believe I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts???

Huh Huh

Believe what you like Phil. Come to whatever opinion you prefer. Personally, I have zero faith that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden or that there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, but that's just me, I guess.

So, having answered your question, how about the same courtesy? If you were on that Jury, would you have convicted Pell of the charges made against him?

You answered SFA mate and instead made an off the cuff remark insinuating I have based my opinion on emotion not facts which is bullshit....If I was a juror on Pell's trial I have no idea what verdict I would have reached based only on the facts presented, however the witness (you believe is a liar and fraud) was apparently very believable and had no ulterior motive to pursue Pell over false allegations....I have every right to believe in Pell's guilt and accept the accusations made against him!!!

Roll Eyes

What are those 'facts' Phil?

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philperth2010

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #352 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 4:09pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:45pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:19pm:

Quote:

If I was on the jury the question you pose would have been irrelevant and not even put to me to consider....My point is I am entitled to weigh every accusation and known fact in forming my opinion, I am not constrained to only consider evidence put forward in the trial....I also question your claim that Pell did not know that others were abusing kids under his leadership when witness have testified Pell was told of abuse and brushed aside such allegations....You also failed to answer if you believe I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts???

Huh Huh

Believe what you like Phil. Come to whatever opinion you prefer. Personally, I have zero faith that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden or that there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, but that's just me, I guess.

So, having answered your question, how about the same courtesy? If you were on that Jury, would you have convicted Pell of the charges made against him?

You answered SFA mate and instead made an off the cuff remark insinuating I have based my opinion on emotion not facts which is bullshit....If I was a juror on Pell's trial I have no idea what verdict I would have reached based only on the facts presented, however the witness (you believe is a liar and fraud) was apparently very believable and had no ulterior motive to pursue Pell over false allegations....I have every right to believe in Pell's guilt and accept the accusations made against him!!!

Roll Eyes

What are those 'facts' Phil?

The fact Pell has been accused by multiple people whom all tell a similar story about his abuse....The fact he was in charge of priests whom were moved because of abusing children which Pell claims to know nothing about....The fact the Church have a history of telling lies and covering up abuse (whilst Pell was in charge)....The fact that I am entitled to reach what ever opinion I want based on what ever evidence I chose to accept....Your problem is you believe opinion needs to be proven in a court of law and that accusations carry no weight in accessing someone's guilt or innocence....Why do you believe those making allegations against Pell are liars and frauds mate???

Huh

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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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Bobby.

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #353 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 4:32pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 2:07pm:

Where is full interview with Bolt?

I can only find 38 seconds of it here:

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6148718483001

It says at the bottom:

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6148718483001

This must-see televised interview will air on Tuesday
14 April at 7pm, only on Sky News Australia.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #354 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 6:17pm

"Causes of wrongful conviction

Causes of wrongful conviction are generally either specific to individuals or systemic in nature. Causes relevant to the individual include factors such as mental problems that may lead an individual to make a false confession (such as John Mark Kerr who publicly confessed to murdering beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey but was later cleared by DNA evidence - see The Age 2006). Common systemic causes are incorrect/false eyewitness identification, flawed scientific/forensic evidence, fault/incorrect/self-serving informer evidence, police or prosecutor misconduct or overzealousness to secure a conviction, false confessions, faulty legal representation, tunnel vision and, perhaps, the effects of the media tainting a jury (Weathered 2007). Eyewitness error is said to be the most common cause of wrongful convictions (Campbell & Denov 2004 citing Huff, Rattner & Sagarin 1986). In many cases a confluence of these circumstances contribute to wrongful conviction - for example, an overzealous prosecution combined with faulty legal representation (Huff 2002a; MacFarlane 2005). While there have been a number of wrongful convictions brought about as a result of false/faulty forensic evidence, paradoxically, many wrongful convictions are discovered by the utilisation and/or re-evaluation of such evidence (Matthews 2004; The Age 2007)."

https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi356

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Gnads

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #355 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 6:43pm

cods wrote on Apr 12^th, 2020 at 5:31pm:

Gnads wrote on Apr 12^th, 2020 at 4:47pm:

cods wrote on Apr 12^th, 2020 at 1:04pm:

Gnads wrote on Apr 12^th, 2020 at 10:22am:

cods wrote on Apr 12^th, 2020 at 9:32am:

Gnads wrote on Apr 12^th, 2020 at 8:35am:

Belgarion wrote on Apr 10^th, 2020 at 1:27pm:

Gnads wrote on Apr 10^th, 2020 at 10:22am:

It's not my opinion that he was mentioned in the Royal Commission into Institutional Child Sexual Abuse.

It's not my opinion that he was at the wheel/in charge when covering up for paedo priests & moving them around was happening.

That's a fact.

It is my opinion & that of others that he should be held accountable for that, along with any other church hierarchy & priests that have been a party to those church policies.

Whilst the current church policy of silence, lying & deception which are hardly religious virtues, remains......

then this sort of thing will continue.

Are you an agreeable party to that?

You do not understand how the law works. Pell was on trial for the sexual abuse of two altar boys at a specific time and in a specific place. Nothing else is relevant, including anything you may have read in the media concerning Royal Commissions or anything else.

I understand perfectly.

He was mentioned questioned about his knowledge & deliberate covering up & moving of paedophile preists long before the charges of his own sexual abuse of children against him were ever made & laid.

His was involved in that & was consequentially mentioned in the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse which started in 2013.

At least 2 years or more before actual sexual abuse charges against him emerged.

So he should be accountable for that - outside the current case & him winning his appeal against his conviction.

Capisce?

sure! if thats what is appropriate ANOTHER TRIAL...

its the law...got nothing to do with Pell...

he may well have DELIBERATELY covered up ,,

but to me he was more likely following the orders from the Vatican ... in those days the church was far more important..

It's got everything to do with him.

It's aiding & abetting a crime.

So you're still making excuses for him like the blind faithful. Roll Eyes

wrong...

it would need a separate trial : Roll Eyes

how hard uis that to understand..

I have no blind faith as you call is I am not a catholic...

I thought his trial was a shocker.. even I could see so much wrong with it...it wasnt a fair go.....I am talking about the justice not the man....

I dont seriously know if he is guilty or not of the crime he was charged with.....I wasnt there.. and I refuse to judge anyone without clear cut evidence or in this case

beyond reasonable doubt...

which as you have seen was prove to be wanting... Angry

Well durrrrh ..... I'm not speaking about the trial that convicted him of actual abuse himself, sent him to jail or the current appeal process that has seen his conviction quashed.

After the number of times I've explained that... how hard is it for you to understand?

It has to do all his activities in protecting/covering up for & hiding paedophile priests in new locations where they(under his charge) continued to molest more victims....... for decades.

Pell wasn't the only senior Catholic involved ... you'd see that if you watched Revelations ..... but a lot of them are dead.

So he has a case to answer.

Getting back to your comments about this current conviction & appeal case ....... why do you think his testimony trumps someone elses?

he didnt testify... Roll Eyes

now you are not speaking about his latest court trial, Roll Eyes

but you have already made up your mind that he should be tried because he definitely moved around paedo priests....knowing they were paedos...so he was enabling and abetting Roll Eyes

....is it now a crime to follow the rulings of your employer???.....

I didnt know that!

as for revelations I did try watching it didnt finish it...it was very biased the interviewer made no secret of how she felt I thought that was wrong wrong wrong...

he of course was absolving himself confessing like he did......

this is I feel something Pell would also be doing

as they believe in confessing ones sins allows them to enter the house of the lord...

whats he got to lose???????...

you hold Pell responsible what about the POPE?

If the rulings of your employer are in fact criminal i.e. covering up criminal acts.....

then of course it's a crime.

You say you didn't know that? Good grief. Roll Eyes

If you worked for a company that told you to commit fraud on your customers .... would you just go along with that? Or blow the whistle?

If you did go along & got caught would you think you should get off the hook because you were following instructions?

They are priests, sick criminal child abusing priests ... not soldiers/military following orders.

And for what they have done they are not men of God.

The sanctity of the confessional should be scrapped .... & yes I do blame the Pope.

He is the head honcho & where the last buck stops.

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cods

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #356 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 6:44pm

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 4:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:45pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:19pm:

Quote:

If I was on the jury the question you pose would have been irrelevant and not even put to me to consider....My point is I am entitled to weigh every accusation and known fact in forming my opinion, I am not constrained to only consider evidence put forward in the trial....I also question your claim that Pell did not know that others were abusing kids under his leadership when witness have testified Pell was told of abuse and brushed aside such allegations....You also failed to answer if you believe I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts???

Huh Huh

Believe what you like Phil. Come to whatever opinion you prefer. Personally, I have zero faith that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden or that there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, but that's just me, I guess.

So, having answered your question, how about the same courtesy? If you were on that Jury, would you have convicted Pell of the charges made against him?

You answered SFA mate and instead made an off the cuff remark insinuating I have based my opinion on emotion not facts which is bullshit....If I was a juror on Pell's trial I have no idea what verdict I would have reached based only on the facts presented, however the witness (you believe is a liar and fraud) was apparently very believable and had no ulterior motive to pursue Pell over false allegations....I have every right to believe in Pell's guilt and accept the accusations made against him!!!

Roll Eyes

What are those 'facts' Phil?

The fact Pell has been accused by multiple people whom all tell a similar story about his abuse....The fact he was in charge of priests whom were moved because of abusing children which Pell claims to know nothing about....The fact the Church have a history of telling lies and covering up abuse (whilst Pell was in charge)....The fact that I am entitled to reach what ever opinion I want based on what ever evidence I chose to accept....Your problem is you believe opinion needs to be proven in a court of law and that accusations carry no weight in accessing someone's guilt or innocence....Why do you believe those making allegations against Pell are liars and frauds mate???

Huh

seriously you really are looking at this the complete wrong way

he was tried on ONE ACCOUNT and one account only... that is what I am discussing....

what others have said or think doesnt come into it.....

this person whos case we are talking about because its the one Pell was found guilty of...

gave his version of what happened on this day in 1996..

apart from a boy who claimed he wasnt abused but is now dead....no other name was mentioned..... Angry

you are making things up to fit your take on this and thats sad....

words are not true evidence unless they are backed up.....I found it hard to believe that this happened the way this man remembers..

I have to be able to believe this could in fact happen.....and I didnt believe it not one word of it...

I try not to get hysterical and point fingers....if it sells papers sometime its bled for all its worth....

this trial is one mans word against another......think carefully phil....he supposedly had two 13 year old boys giving him oral sex whilst dressed on Archbishops robes which needs a person to help him get them on and off..

he is also supposed to have left the steps of the Cathedral after greeting his worshipers...

to rush back before the choir left the building in the hope he would catch two boys......who sneaked their way to the
sacristy to taste the wine... Roll Eyes

even the choir master never noticed them going... Sad

its sad its horrible I have a member of my family who was abused not by the Catholic church but by a Brother at a Catholic school...

he still tenses up when it comes on TV......he has been compensated but it doesnt take away the years of living with it does it?....

but making Pell pay for everything others did doesnt sit well with me..

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cods

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #357 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 6:48pm

Gnads wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 6:43pm:

If the rulings of your employer are in fact criminal i.e. covering up criminal acts.....

then of course it's a crime.

You say you didn't know that? Good grief.

If you worked for a company that told you to commit fraud on your customers .... would you just go along with that? Or blow the whistle?

If you did go along & got caught would you think you should get off the hook because you were following instructions?

They are priests, sick criminal child abusing priests ... not soldiers/military following orders.

And for what they have done they are not men of God.

The sanctity of the confessional should be scrapped .... & yes I do blame the Pope.

He is the head honcho & where the last buck stops

it was in reference to the church...

if a person dies on a building site then the company he worked for is charged with negligence....not the forman or the person who gave him instructions on the site...

the boss man is always charged with the crime...

accept in this case. Sad

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Aussie

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #358 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 6:53pm

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 4:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:45pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 13^th, 2020 at 3:19pm:

Quote:

If I was on the jury the question you pose would have been irrelevant and not even put to me to consider....My point is I am entitled to weigh every accusation and known fact in forming my opinion, I am not constrained to only consider evidence put forward in the trial....I also question your claim that Pell did not know that others were abusing kids under his leadership when witness have testified Pell was told of abuse and brushed aside such allegations....You also failed to answer if you believe I am not entitled to form such an opinion based on all known facts???

Huh Huh

Believe what you like Phil. Come to whatever opinion you prefer. Personally, I have zero faith that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden or that there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, but that's just me, I guess.

So, having answered your question, how about the same courtesy? If you were on that Jury, would you have convicted Pell of the charges made against him?

You answered SFA mate and instead made an off the cuff remark insinuating I have based my opinion on emotion not facts which is bullshit....If I was a juror on Pell's trial I have no idea what verdict I would have reached based only on the facts presented, however the witness (you believe is a liar and fraud) was apparently very believable and had no ulterior motive to pursue Pell over false allegations....I have every right to believe in Pell's guilt and accept the accusations made against him!!!

Roll Eyes

What are those 'facts' Phil?

The fact Pell has been accused by multiple people whom all tell a similar story about his abuse....The fact he was in charge of priests whom were moved because of abusing children which Pell claims to know nothing about....The fact the Church have a history of telling lies and covering up abuse (whilst Pell was in charge)....The fact that I am entitled to reach what ever opinion I want based on what ever evidence I chose to accept....Your problem is you believe opinion needs to be proven in a court of law and that accusations carry no weight in accessing someone's guilt or innocence....Why do you believe those making allegations against Pell are liars and frauds mate???

Huh

Can you tell me why those alleged "facts" never became part of either of the two Pell Trials? Are you asserting that the Crown failed to call relevant witnesses? What level of legal incompetence are you alleging?

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Gnads

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Re: Pell walks
Reply #359 - Apr 13^th, 2020 at 6:56pm

BTW Sarah Ferguson did a top job in Revelations .... she didn't take any of the wishy washy bs off Vincent Ryan or Gerard McGrath....... the latter who belonged to the order St. John of God(what a joke) abused children in Catholic Institutions in both New Zealand & Australia.

Institutions that took in young children who had intellectual & physical disabilities.

Sorry Cods ...... you just cannot play this evil down..... & brush it off with ... following your employers instruction.

The Catholic Church & it's priests don't pay tax .... how is it really an employer of supposed men of God.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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