Australian Politics Forum - All Muslims support genocide

Yadda

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #450 - Jul 5^th, 2019 at 10:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 3:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 3:52pm:

Even the slaughter of one Jew is genocide, G - even if they reduced the number down to zero.

He seems to be saying that even if you believe zero were slaughtered, you still have to spinelessly apologise for a hypothetical slaughter of hundreds... because err.. they don't want to put themselves in a position of disputing history?... or something like that.

Honestly I can't make head nor tail of that argument.

Can you?

You have a point gandalf.

It is only a hypothetical slaughter [of hundreds].

And the source of this account is only recorded within ISLAMIC religious texts.

And everyone knows, that even the Koran itself, is very likely a simply a concocted 'religious text'.

'Pasted' together [fabricated] by 7th century Mohammedan holy men.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1561780557/7#7
Quote:

......the oldest known fragments of the Koran were discovered, in the 1970's, in a local mosque, in Sanna, Yemen,
a German ISLAMIC scholar was invited to do preservation work, on those fragments of the Koran.....

Quote:

.......The first person to spend a significant amount of time examining the Yemeni fragments, in 1981, was Gerd-R. Puin, a specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Koranic paleography based at Saarland University, in Saarbrücken, Germany. Puin, who had been sent by the German government to organize and oversee the restoration project, recognized the antiquity of some of the parchment fragments, and his preliminary inspection also revealed unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment. Enticing, too, were the sheets of the scripture written in the rare and early Hijazi Arabic script: pieces of the earliest Korans known to exist, they were also palimpsests -- versions very clearly written over even earlier, washed-off versions. What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D.

I'm sure that Mohammed, didn't really commit any serious atrocities.

How could he, ...if his 'persona' was only a figment of some Mohammedan holy men's imaginations ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #451 - Jul 5^th, 2019 at 10:16pm

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Quote:

What actually happened as a matter of historical fact (which neither of us know for sure) is neither here nor there to the only issue that matters here - which is what muslims actually believe. The only way your jibberish could possibly come close to making sense was if you arrogantly assume that it definitely did happen, and furthermore that all muslims must secrety accept that it happened

The vast majority openly accept that it happened - hence the problem for those theoretical Muslims of yours who hold that if those vast majority are correct, the foundation of their faith is an evil man.

No it isn't. You are making no sense at all.

What your saying is even if I believe Muhammad committed no atrocity, I must somehow still believe he is evil - because most muslims do believe he did commit an atrocity.

How on earth did this absurd brain fart pass as plausible even in your confused mind?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #452 - Jul 5^th, 2019 at 10:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5^th, 2019 at 10:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Quote:

What actually happened as a matter of historical fact (which neither of us know for sure) is neither here nor there to the only issue that matters here - which is what muslims actually believe. The only way your jibberish could possibly come close to making sense was if you arrogantly assume that it definitely did happen, and furthermore that all muslims must secrety accept that it happened

The vast majority openly accept that it happened - hence the problem for those theoretical Muslims of yours who hold that if those vast majority are correct, the foundation of their faith is an evil man.

No it isn't. You are making no sense at all.

What your saying is even if I believe Muhammad committed no atrocity, I must somehow still believe he is evil - because most muslims do believe he did commit an atrocity.

How on earth did this absurd brain fart pass as plausible even in your confused mind?

No Gandalf, that is not what I am saying.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #453 - Jul 5^th, 2019 at 10:46pm

You are saying that muslims who deny Muhammad committed any genocide can still somehow be compelled to accept that the foundation of their religion is an evil man - right?

Or if you are not saying that, how on earth is the fact that the majority of muslims believe he committed an atrocity a problem in any way for these genocide deniers?

Feel free to actually expand upon and properly explain your brain farts for once FD.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #454 - Jul 6^th, 2019 at 8:19am

Because it makes a question of historical fact, in which they are the minority among Muslims, the only barrier to them concluding that Muhammad was evil. They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad. That's why you offered up your "academic" support for Muhammad's genocide at the same time as denying it. They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.

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Frank

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #455 - Jul 6^th, 2019 at 8:43pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5^th, 2019 at 10:46pm:

You are saying that muslims who deny Muhammad committed any genocide can still somehow be compelled to accept that the foundation of their religion is an evil man - right?

Or if you are not saying that, how on earth is the fact that the majority of muslims believe he committed an atrocity a problem in any way for these genocide deniers?

Feel free to actually expand upon and properly explain your brain farts for once FD.

Mohammed was not evil merely for his murdering the Jews. He was a low character on almost every account.

To regard him, as Muslim like you do, as the best of men, is a willful auto-mindfvck on a colossal, organised scale. You all know its bollocks but you are all too afraid of each other to break rank.

The guy was a dishonest, thick yet cunning, manipulative sex maniac. His successors were just like him, his legacy has been you stupid sons of Mohammed murdering each other and anyone else you can lay your hands on IN HIS NAME!!!

Dishonest, blinkered, murderous in the face of criticism - sons of Mohammed.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #456 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 11:09am

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2019 at 8:19am:

They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.

You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2019 at 8:19am:

They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.

Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide. The individuals themselves have no agency at all to come to their own conclusions and consider context. No way can a muslim say "you know, executing members of an entire army who treated with the enemy while under siege is one thing, but rounding up and gassing all jews, just for being jews - well thats something quite different".

Are you yourself allowed to pick and choose FD? For example, would you be prepared to call the annhialation of say the Australian Aborigines as genocide? American Indians? the Incas?

Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #457 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 12:39pm

Quote:

You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks.

I think every Muslim who has posted here has given us a variation on this same theme, but none have come close to you in the number of different versions and excuses.

Quote:

That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

Can you give an example that does not involve Muslims supporting genocide? Or is your only point that Muslims can be more creative than I give them credit for in rationalising their support for genocide?

BTW, I think rationalise is the wrong term. It ultimately rests on an emotional reaction, or cognitive dissonance. I doubt Muslims consciously realise they have to support genocide because their religion paints them into a corner.

Quote:

here is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority.

You can make up any story you want. You often do. But can you back it up?

Quote:

Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide.

You are confused Gandalf

Quote:

Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?

No, because unlike you, I do not support genocide.

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Yadda

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #458 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 12:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 11:09am:

You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks.

Thats one out of millions.

That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

ARGUMENT;

gandalf

Here is another way in which every individual moslem is able to determine which actions are good, and which actions are evil.....

------- >

ISLAMIC law, is ISLAM.

It is ISLAMIC law, which 'informs' all of mainstream ISLAM, and which 'informs' authoritative ISLAMIC doctrine and on lawful behaviour.

Within ISLAM, for the devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by ISLAMIC law.

And within ISLAM, for the devout moslem, all things are verboten and haram, if they are NOT permitted by ISLAMIC law.

You must know that gandalf.

QUESTION;
But what determines and informs ISLAMIC law ?

Every word of the Koran, are Allah's words - which conveys information which Allah wished to make known to every believer.
[the Koran itself, states that, that, is the Korans purpose. Koran 5.47-48 Koran 3.2-3
]

And what the Koran either prohibits or permits, is the primary guide to authoritative ISLAMIC law.

You must know that gandalf.

.

Yadda said....
What behaviour is permitted [halal], to moslems?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376746834/6#6

Yadda said....
The inerrant Koran???
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0

"Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)."
Koran 3.2-3

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #459 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 10:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 11:09am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2019 at 8:19am:

They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.

You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2019 at 8:19am:

They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.

Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide. The individuals themselves have no agency at all to come to their own conclusions and consider context. No way can a muslim say "you know, executing members of an entire army who treated with the enemy while under siege is one thing, but rounding up and gassing all jews, just for being jews - well thats something quite different".

Are you yourself allowed to pick and choose FD? For example, would you be prepared to call the annhialation of say the Australian Aborigines as genocide? American Indians? the Incas?

Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?

G, I'm curious. Please give this one a stab, I'm really really keen to know what you think.

Why do you answer?

That's all. Why do you do it?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #460 - Jul 11^th, 2019 at 11:17am

Karnal wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 11:09am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2019 at 8:19am:

They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.

You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2019 at 8:19am:

They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.

Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide. The individuals themselves have no agency at all to come to their own conclusions and consider context. No way can a muslim say "you know, executing members of an entire army who treated with the enemy while under siege is one thing, but rounding up and gassing all jews, just for being jews - well thats something quite different".

Are you yourself allowed to pick and choose FD? For example, would you be prepared to call the annhialation of say the Australian Aborigines as genocide? American Indians? the Incas?

Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?

G, I'm curious. Please give this one a stab, I'm really really keen to know what you think.

Why do you answer?

That's all. Why do you do it?

I refuse to believe that someone could intentionally be so obtuse.

It simply defies belief that someone seemingly so intelligent could give these sorts of "arguments" with a straight face. I guess I'm hoping (against hope) that its a simple misunderstanding somewhere.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #461 - Jul 11^th, 2019 at 11:33am

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 12:39pm:

ou can make up any story you want. You often do. But can you back it up?

make up any stories eh. You mean like saying transparent crap like "They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it."? Can you back that up? Actually scratch that, don't bother answering.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 12:39pm:

You are confused Gandalf

We apparently "support" genocide not because we defend Hitler's holocaust, or the Armenian killings or the annhialation of the Australian aborigines - or any actual genocide - but because we supposedly support the killing of the Banu Qurayza men. Something that you insist is a genocide, but pretty much no one else does.

So yeah, it entirely comes down to what you interpret as genocide. To the absurd extent that even when we contend it was the execution only of a few handpicked ringleaders - its still genocide.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 12:39pm:

No, because unlike you, I do not support genocide.

You haven't answered my question FD - do you consider the annhialation of the Australian Aborigines or American Indians by the British/British descendents as 'genocide'? According to you, denying a genocide is a genocide gets you well on the way to supporting genocide.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: All Muslims support genocide
Reply #462 - Jul 11^th, 2019 at 12:52pm

Quote:

We apparently "support" genocide not because we defend Hitler's holocaust, or the Armenian killings or the annhialation of the Australian aborigines - or any actual genocide - but because we supposedly support the killing of the Banu Qurayza men. Something that you insist is a genocide, but pretty much no one else does.

Plenty of others do.

Quote:

So yeah, it entirely comes down to what you interpret as genocide. To the absurd extent that even when we contend it was the execution only of a few handpicked ringleaders - its still genocide.

How were they picked?

Quote:

ou haven't answered my question FD - do you consider the annhialation of the Australian Aborigines or American Indians by the British/British descendents as 'genocide'? According to you, denying a genocide is a genocide gets you well on the way to supporting genocide.

That is not what I am saying Gandalf.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: All Muslims support genocide Reply #463 - Jul 11^th, 2019 at 1:21pm Do you consider the annhialation of natives in Australia and the Americas by white settlers genocide FD? You haven't said.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50551 At my desk.	Re: All Muslims support genocide Reply #464 - Jul 13^th, 2019 at 8:16am I am not that familiar with the details. The Tasmanian aborigines probably count. I don't consider accidentally introduced diseases, and the deaths they cause, to be genocide.
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