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Member Run Boards >> Islam >> All Muslims support genocide
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1543371381

Message started by freediver on Nov 28th, 2018 at 12:16pm

Title: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Nov 28th, 2018 at 12:16pm
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.

This manifests itself in a variety of ways. For example, every Muslim who has posted here has attempted to excuse Muhammad's genocide by claiming that the three large Jewish tribes of Medina were party to the treaty of Medina and that each successively violated it, thus being to blame for their own genocide. This story appears to be a recent fabrication and Muslims refuse to discuss it's origin.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1543103591

Gandalf has been even more creative in coming up with ways to support genocide, trotting out such classics as:
* tough titties, off with their heads
* they were literally a mindless collective of treacherous Jews without an individual personality
* only the warriors were executed (Muhammad identified the warriors with a genital inspection)
* the Jews made it up
* it is perfectly reasonable to deny the genocide happened, or attempt to downplay its extent, at the same time as supporting the genocide
* if wikipedia gives an example of a historian who thinks the treaty was actually a unilateral declaration by Muhammad, and that the copies of the treaty we have today list all the party tribes (the Jewish tribes are omitted), the only reasonable way to interpret this is as wikipedia claiming that not a single other historian in the world reaches the same conclusion

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 28th, 2018 at 2:07pm

freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 12:16pm:
if wikipedia gives an example of a historian who thinks the treaty was actually a unilateral declaration by Muhammad, and that the copies of the treaty we have today list all the party tribes (the Jewish tribes are omitted), the only reasonable way to interpret this is as wikipedia claiming that not a single other historian in the world reaches the same conclusion


lol not even close.

Are you really that clueless FD?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Nov 28th, 2018 at 6:55pm
You are choosing to be both trivial and wrong Gandalf. Is that preferable to discussing the support for genocide among Muslims?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:08am
oh you wanted to "discuss" did you FD? Good one.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Nov 29th, 2018 at 10:14am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:08am:
oh you wanted to "discuss" did you FD? Good one.


Sometimes a question is just a question.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:08am:
oh you wanted to "discuss" did you FD? Good one.


That's the general idea Gandalf. Are you attempting to post on an online forum without "discussing"?

Have you ever met a Muslim who does not support genocide?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:00pm

freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:08am:
oh you wanted to "discuss" did you FD? Good one.


That's the general idea Gandalf. Are you attempting to post on an online forum without "discussing"?

Have you ever met a Muslim who does not support genocide?


Sorry FD, but no one initiates a genuine and serious discussion by asking such a deliberately absurd question that has no other purpose than to offend and score cheap points.

By the way, are we sticking to the ridiculous idea that the mass execution of a few hundred enemy soldiers during a time of war constitutes "genocide"?

You know, few hundred executed soldiers, a few million men women and children put to death - no difference really is there?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:04pm

freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:08am:
oh you wanted to "discuss" did you FD? Good one.


That's the general idea Gandalf. Are you attempting to post on an online forum without "discussing"?


I was wondering that myself, FD. Are you attempting to post on an online forum without discussing?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:28pm
FD's efforts at "discussion" generally go something like this: "hey you, muslim, you people are scum of the earth who blindly follow a genocidal pedophile prophet. Now lets have a civil and constructive discussion about that."

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Bias_2012 on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:52pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:28pm:
Now lets have a civil and constructive discussion about that."



Why do muslims kill people in the streets with whatever they can lay their hands on, trucks, guns, bombs, cars, knives, etc?

How many people would a muslim kill if there were no police around at the time? just one, maybe two, maybe twenty - how many would they slaughter?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 29th, 2018 at 2:29pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:52pm:
Why do muslims kill people in the streets with whatever they can lay their hands on, trucks, guns, bombs, cars, knives, etc?


Because they are psychopaths?


Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:52pm:
How many people would a muslim kill if there were no police around at the time? just one, maybe two, maybe twenty - how many would they slaughter?


As many as is humanly possible I would imagine.

Are these trick questions bias?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by xeej on Nov 29th, 2018 at 2:38pm
Its like Grandmoofta Alf promotes terrorism with every single post.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Bias_2012 on Nov 29th, 2018 at 2:44pm

J.D. wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 2:38pm:
Its like Grandmoofta Alf promotes terrorism with every single post.



Yes, not a civil or constructive bone in Gandalf's body, just excuses and sarcasm

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:15pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 2:44pm:

J.D. wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 2:38pm:
Its like Grandmoofta Alf promotes terrorism with every single post.



Yes, not a civil or constructive bone in Gandalf's body, just excuses and sarcasm


civil? Although the bar is low, I'm pretty confident I am the most civil contributor here.

You started yesterday's discussion by implying that I show my kids videos of killings as the first step to their "Islamic education".

Now you kick off another one by clearly implying that we are all inclined towards killing as many people on the street as we can.

And you have the temerity to lecture over civility and constructiveness? Lol

Thanks, but I'll stick with "excuses and sarcasm" over deliberately offensive hate mongering.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:32pm
The thing is gandi, what are you going to do about your religion motivating people to perpetrate the many and varied atrocities they commit in the name of allah?

How long do we have to listen to all the excuses?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by greggerypeccary on Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:34pm

moses wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:32pm:
The thing is gandi, what are you going to do about your religion motivating people to perpetrate the many and varied atrocities they commit in the name of allah?

How long do we have to listen to all the excuses?


It's actually people like you who make the excuses.

You do realise that, don't you?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Nov 29th, 2018 at 4:02pm
The real cause of Islamic terrorism: “We are motivated by our religion, by our Qur’an and Sunnah”
May 31, 2017 9:02 am

An enormous study involving in-depth interviews with 45,000 respondents led by former German minister of Justice, Christian Pfeiffer,

The many interviews showed that Islam is distinguished by being the only religion that makes people more prone to violence the more religious one becomes.

“Islam’s religious texts call upon its followers to commit violence and to fight to a much higher degree than any other religion. The texts in Islam are clearly distinct from those of other religions’ texts, as they to a much higher degree call for violence and aggression against followers of other faiths. There are also direct incitements to terror.

terrorist said during an interview:

“The zeal for jihad always struck me when I would sit in my room and read Qur’an with English translation.”

“We are motivated by our religion, by our Qur’an and Sunnah and we are not ashamed of that,”


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:21pm

moses wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:32pm:
The thing is gandi, what are you going to do about your religion motivating people to perpetrate the many and varied atrocities they commit in the name of allah?

How long do we have to listen to all the excuses?


*MY* religion does no such thing moses.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by xeej on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:21pm:

moses wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:32pm:
The thing is gandi, what are you going to do about your religion motivating people to perpetrate the many and varied atrocities they commit in the name of allah?

How long do we have to listen to all the excuses?


*MY* religion does no such thing moses.

So there Moses, and that should be the end of the matter.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:26pm

J.D. wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:24pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:21pm:

moses wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:32pm:
The thing is gandi, what are you going to do about your religion motivating people to perpetrate the many and varied atrocities they commit in the name of allah?

How long do we have to listen to all the excuses?


*MY* religion does no such thing moses.

So there Moses, and that should be the end of the matter.


Well one would certainly think so. But I am quite confident moses will continue holding me responsible for other people's religion and beliefs.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by xeej on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:40pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:26pm:

J.D. wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:24pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 6:21pm:

moses wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 3:32pm:
The thing is gandi, what are you going to do about your religion motivating people to perpetrate the many and varied atrocities they commit in the name of allah?

How long do we have to listen to all the excuses?


*MY* religion does no such thing moses.

So there Moses, and that should be the end of the matter.


Well one would certainly think so. But I am quite confident moses will continue holding me responsible for other people's religion and beliefs.

Your religion certainly works in mysterious ways.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Nov 29th, 2018 at 7:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:00pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:08am:
oh you wanted to "discuss" did you FD? Good one.


That's the general idea Gandalf. Are you attempting to post on an online forum without "discussing"?

Have you ever met a Muslim who does not support genocide?


Sorry FD, but no one initiates a genuine and serious discussion by asking such a deliberately absurd question that has no other purpose than to offend and score cheap points.

By the way, are we sticking to the ridiculous idea that the mass execution of a few hundred enemy soldiers during a time of war constitutes "genocide"?

You know, few hundred executed soldiers, a few million men women and children put to death - no difference really is there?


It was not the initiation Gandalf. It was my third post in the thread. It's not my fault you were attempting to post without actually discussing anything.

How did Muhammad (tgp) identify which ones were soldiers? By inspecting their genitals?

Also, are you suggesting the Muhammad's genocide does not count as genocide because he did not achieve the mass death tolls we are capable of in modern times with industrial methods? I'll have to add that to my list. I already have the genital inspection one, BTW.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by xeej on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:41pm
Muslims have balls! pffft.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 30th, 2018 at 7:47am

freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 7:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:00pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 8:08am:
oh you wanted to "discuss" did you FD? Good one.


That's the general idea Gandalf. Are you attempting to post on an online forum without "discussing"?

Have you ever met a Muslim who does not support genocide?


Sorry FD, but no one initiates a genuine and serious discussion by asking such a deliberately absurd question that has no other purpose than to offend and score cheap points.

By the way, are we sticking to the ridiculous idea that the mass execution of a few hundred enemy soldiers during a time of war constitutes "genocide"?

You know, few hundred executed soldiers, a few million men women and children put to death - no difference really is there?


It was not the initiation Gandalf. It was my third post in the thread. It's not my fault you were attempting to post without actually discussing anything.

How did Muhammad (tgp) identify which ones were soldiers? By inspecting their genitals?

Also, are you suggesting the Muhammad's genocide does not count as genocide because he did not achieve the mass death tolls we are capable of in modern times with industrial methods? I'll have to add that to my list. I already have the genital inspection one, BTW.


What is tgp FD?

I'm suggesting its not a genocide because it was an alleged standard run-of-the-mill mass execution of prisoners. It happens literally all the time in just about every war.

It obviously trivialises the intended meaning of genocide which is wholesale indiscriminate killing of an entire ethnic/cultural group - men, women and children.

Slaughtering 6 million jews in a deliberate effort to eliminate the entire jewish population counts as genocide. Putting to death a few hundred soldiers for collusion with the enemy - is not.

But yes yes, I know, Muhammad definitely would have killed 6 million jews - 6 billion even - if only he had the means. We all know Muhammad was literally worse than Hitler or any other human that has ever lived.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Nov 30th, 2018 at 1:09pm
Gandalf have you ever met a Muslim who does not support genocide?

Do you think that being so well versed in justifying and supporting Muhammad's genocide contributes to modern genocides committed by Muslims?


Quote:
I'm suggesting its not a genocide because it was an alleged standard run-of-the-mill mass execution of prisoners.


So all you have to do to avoid a charge of genocide is imprison the whole tribe first?

It seems a little strange to use terms like standard and run-of-the mill to describe the mass execution of prisoners.


Quote:
It obviously trivialises the intended meaning of genocide which is wholesale indiscriminate killing of an entire ethnic/cultural group - men, women and children.


The tribe ceased to exist as a cultural group after all the men were executed.


Quote:
Slaughtering 6 million jews in a deliberate effort to eliminate the entire jewish population counts as genocide. Putting to death a few hundred soldiers for collusion with the enemy - is not.


How did Muhammad identify the soldiers? By inspecting their genitals?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 30th, 2018 at 2:10pm

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 1:09pm:
Gandalf have you ever met a Muslim who does not support genocide?


That is insulting and nasty - deliberately so. And obviously ridiculous. Shame on you.


freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 1:09pm:
It seems a little strange to use terms like standard and run-of-the mill to describe the mass execution of prisoners.


Why? Executing captured enemy soldiers is about as standard and run-of-the-mill as you can get. Which is why its a complete insult to equate it to genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Nov 30th, 2018 at 3:06pm
gandalf wrote; Reply #17 - Yesterday at 6:21pm


Quote:
*MY* religion does no such thing moses.


Gandi gandi gandi, how long are you going to keep sticking your head in the sand and try to ignore the 64% of the qur'an which has the overall theme of hatred of the kufir.

Your favoured couple of lines figuratively speaking, which indicate a position of tolerance are so far outweighed and outnumbered by the verses which advocate the exact opposite.

Now this is the problem gandi it's the overweighing bad bits of the qur'an which cause and motivate islamic terrorism.

Why are muslims the top 26 listed (last time I looked) global religious terrorist organizations?

You will have to stop ducking and diving one day gandi, you will have to find the courage to own islams' problems.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by goldkam on Nov 30th, 2018 at 3:14pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:52pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:28pm:
Now lets have a civil and constructive discussion about that."



Why do muslims kill people in the streets with whatever they can lay their hands on, trucks, guns, bombs, cars, knives, etc?

How many people would a muslim kill if there were no police around at the time? just one, maybe two, maybe twenty - how many would they slaughter?


Firstly a distinction should be drawn between Muslims and Muslim Extremists they are actually different. It seems the media, politicians and society in general like to blanket a perception across an entire religion.

Secondly....you should rephrase to a Muslim extremist. The vast vast majority of Muslims conduct themselves in a law abiding and respectful manner. Thus the answer to that question is they wouldn't.....

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Nov 30th, 2018 at 3:58pm
Every muslim terrorist is totally convinced he / she is obeying the qur'an and will go to paradise.

The problem is the qur'an as it now stands.

There is not a single muslim on this earth who does not believe that the qur'an is perfect and infallible.

If you support the cause and motivation, you by definition support the terrorism engendered.

The answer is right in front of everybody, the qur'an has to be reviewed and the evil it contains has to be purged.

islamic terrorism is religious terrorism, it is ideological terrorism, you fight ideology with ideology, in this case the qur'an has to questioned, the ideology in it which causes islamic terrorism (human rights atrocities) has to be removed.

However the leftards and muslims fight this tooth and nail, as they know truth will destroy islam, so they bend over backwards to try and stop a reformation of islam, preferring instead the status quo of bloodshed death and destruction as we fight islamic terrorism.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Nov 30th, 2018 at 4:14pm
Moses, Moses, Moses, how long are you going to keep sticking your head in the sand and try to ignore the 64% of the Bible which has the overall theme of hatred of the Infidiel.

Your favoured couple of lines figuratively speaking, which indicate a position of tolerance are so far outweighed and outnumbered by the verses which advocate the exact opposite.

Now this is the problem Moses it's the overweighing bad bits of the Bible which cause and motivate Christian terrorism.

Why are Christians in the top 26 listed (last time I looked) global religious terrorist organizations?

You will have to stop ducking and diving one day Moses, you will have to find the courage to own Christians' problems.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Nov 30th, 2018 at 4:18pm
Every Christian terrorist is totally convinced he / she is obeying the Bible and will go to paradise.

The problem is the Bible as it now stands.

There is not a single Christian on this earth who does not believe that the Bible is perfect and infallible.

If you support the cause and motivation, you by definition support the terrorism engendered.

The answer is right in front of everybody, the Bible has to be reviewed and the evil it contains has to be purged.

Christian terrorism is religious terrorism, it is ideological terrorism, you fight ideology with ideology, in this case the Bible has to be questioned, the ideology in it which causes Christian terrorism (human rights atrocities) has to be removed.

However the Rightards and Christians fight this tooth and nail, as they know truth will destroy Christianity, so they bend over backwards to try and stop a reformation of Christianity preferring instead the status quo of bloodshed death and destruction as we fight Christian terrorism.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Nov 30th, 2018 at 5:48pm

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 4:18pm:
Every Christian terrorist is totally convinced he / she is obeying the Bible and will go to paradise.

The problem is the Bible as it now stands.

There is not a single Christian on this earth who does not believe that the Bible is perfect and infallible.

If you support the cause and motivation, you by definition support the terrorism engendered.

The answer is right in front of everybody, the Bible has to be reviewed and the evil it contains has to be purged.

Christian terrorism is religious terrorism, it is ideological terrorism, you fight ideology with ideology, in this case the Bible has to be questioned, the ideology in it which causes Christian terrorism (human rights atrocities) has to be removed.

However the Rightards and Christians fight this tooth and nail, as they know truth will destroy Christianity, so they bend over backwards to try and stop a reformation of Christianity preferring instead the status quo of bloodshed death and destruction as we fight Christian terrorism.



Thank you, ijit, you may be seated.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Nov 30th, 2018 at 5:57pm

Frank wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 5:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 4:18pm:
Every Christian terrorist is totally convinced he / she is obeying the Bible and will go to paradise.

The problem is the Bible as it now stands.

There is not a single Christian on this earth who does not believe that the Bible is perfect and infallible.

If you support the cause and motivation, you by definition support the terrorism engendered.

The answer is right in front of everybody, the Bible has to be reviewed and the evil it contains has to be purged.

Christian terrorism is religious terrorism, it is ideological terrorism, you fight ideology with ideology, in this case the Bible has to be questioned, the ideology in it which causes Christian terrorism (human rights atrocities) has to be removed.

However the Rightards and Christians fight this tooth and nail, as they know truth will destroy Christianity, so they bend over backwards to try and stop a reformation of Christianity preferring instead the status quo of bloodshed death and destruction as we fight Christian terrorism.



Thank you, ijit, you may be seated.


Oh, lordy, lordy!  This child has soiled itself!  Please, can you come to Aisle 4 and collect it?  It's spreading itself all over the floor!  Can we have a mop and bucket, please?  To Aisle 4!  Quickly, before it spreads!  Please, Patrons, can you avoid Aisle 4 for a while while we clean this mess up?  Can someone please come and collect this child, immediately?  Please?   ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Nov 30th, 2018 at 7:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 1:09pm:
Gandalf have you ever met a Muslim who does not support genocide?


That is insulting and nasty - deliberately so. And obviously ridiculous. Shame on you.


I think it is your answer that is rediculous.


Quote:

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 1:09pm:
It seems a little strange to use terms like standard and run-of-the mill to describe the mass execution of prisoners.


Why? Executing captured enemy soldiers is about as standard and run-of-the-mill as you can get. Which is why its a complete insult to equate it to genocide.


When Muslims talk about slaughtering captured enemy soldiers, is it possible they actually mean a tribe that lives in the same city and surrenders without a fight?

How did Muhammad (tgp) know which ones were soldiers? By inspecting their genitals?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Nov 30th, 2018 at 7:16pm
@Reply #30 - Today at 4:18pm

I see ole lying scum a rising

I see more lies are on the way

I see excuses and a lying'

I see ole lying scum today


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:29pm
FD what is tgp?


freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 7:10pm:
I think it is your answer that is rediculous.


You are literally implying that all muslims support genocide. That is obviously offensive - please don't pretend it is not intentional and said for no other purpose than to demonize us. And you are still pretending this is about having a sensible discussion?



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:33pm

Quote:
You are literally implying that all muslims support genocide.


That's just your opinion.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:34pm
FD what is tgp?

Third time lucky?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:36pm

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:33pm:

Quote:
You are literally implying that all muslims support genocide.


That's just your opinion.


Sorry, I wrote that without noticing the thread title. Change 'implying' to 'saying'

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:36pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:33pm:

Quote:
You are literally implying that all muslims support genocide.


That's just your opinion.


Sorry, I wrote that without noticing the thread title. Change 'implying' to 'saying'


Am I literally saying it?

Do you think I should be more polite about the whole genocide thing?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:45pm
what is tgp FD?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Nov 30th, 2018 at 10:43pm
@Reply #34 - Today at 7:16pm

I see ole lying scum a rising

I see more lies are on the way

I see excuses and a lying'

I see ole lying scum today


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 1st, 2018 at 7:39am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30th, 2018 at 8:45pm:
what is tgp FD?


It's a tla Gandalf.

Can you see how being so well versed in supporting and approving genocide might contribute to modern Muslims committing genocide?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 1st, 2018 at 11:15am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29th, 2018 at 1:28pm:
FD's efforts at "discussion" generally go something like this: "hey you, muslim, you people are scum of the earth who blindly follow a genocidal pedophile prophet. Now lets have a civil and constructive discussion about that."


Yes, but he follows it up by playing the old Muslim evasion game.

Cunning, no?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 7:57am
Gandalf you appear to be falling back on accusing me of being impolite, rather than incorrect, when I say that all Muslims support genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 7th, 2018 at 2:00pm
The Great Prophet?

I don't mean anything by it FD, I'm honestly just curious. Its ok to answer this one.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 7th, 2018 at 2:13pm

freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 7:57am:
Gandalf you appear to be falling back on accusing me of being impolite, rather than incorrect, when I say that all Muslims support genocide.


I think you are trying to get attention and create a scene by thinking up thread titles with what you must think are terribly clever and edgy memes. You do this all the time - the headline 'ABC proves muslims are lazy" is just one that comes to mind. The most farcical thing about this even more than your seeming inability to understand why implying that the entire muslim population supports genocide could possibly be incorrect - is claiming with a straight face that you are merely trying to generate constructive discussion.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 7th, 2018 at 6:59pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 7:57am:
Gandalf you appear to be falling back on accusing me of being impolite, rather than incorrect, when I say that all Muslims support genocide.


I think you are trying to get attention and create a scene by thinking up thread titles with what you must think are terribly clever and edgy memes. You do this all the time - the headline 'ABC proves muslims are lazy" is just one that comes to mind. The most farcical thing about this even more than your seeming inability to understand why implying that the entire muslim population supports genocide could possibly be incorrect - is claiming with a straight face that you are merely trying to generate constructive discussion.


The Koran advocates the genocide of the Jews as a prerequisite to world peace.  Are you arguing with Allah/Mohammed? Can you be a Muslims if you reject selected parts of God's final revelation through the final prophet?


You Muslims are a pathetic bunch of rationalists, literalists, intellectually, philosophically, theologically completely farked by the Koran and Mohammed and your idiotic lack of imagination and ability to be intelligent and to have a sense of proportion. You have been painted into the dogmatic, idiotic fvckwit corner by Mohammed, your archetypal Muslims.  You persecute the Muslims with imagination. You are the modern day possessed, FFS, forever going apeshite over nothing. Islam is giving you all heavy psychosis.


Leave Islam, it f vcks you in the head and the heart.i



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 7th, 2018 at 9:17pm

Frank wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
The Koran advocates the genocide of the Jews as a prerequisite to world peace. 


tsk tsk you're telling porkies old boy. yawn, rolls eyes.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:15am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 7:57am:
Gandalf you appear to be falling back on accusing me of being impolite, rather than incorrect, when I say that all Muslims support genocide.


I think you are trying to get attention and create a scene by thinking up thread titles with what you must think are terribly clever and edgy memes. You do this all the time - the headline 'ABC proves muslims are lazy" is just one that comes to mind. The most farcical thing about this even more than your seeming inability to understand why implying that the entire muslim population supports genocide could possibly be incorrect - is claiming with a straight face that you are merely trying to generate constructive discussion.


Am I literally implying it?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:38am
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/223275/in-the-battle-between-the-jews-and-the-muslims-at-the-end-of-time-the-aggressors-will-be-the-jew

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 9th, 2018 at 6:34pm

freediver wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:15am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 7:57am:
Gandalf you appear to be falling back on accusing me of being impolite, rather than incorrect, when I say that all Muslims support genocide.


I think you are trying to get attention and create a scene by thinking up thread titles with what you must think are terribly clever and edgy memes. You do this all the time - the headline 'ABC proves muslims are lazy" is just one that comes to mind. The most farcical thing about this even more than your seeming inability to understand why implying that the entire muslim population supports genocide could possibly be incorrect - is claiming with a straight face that you are merely trying to generate constructive discussion.


Am I literally implying it?


Sorry, you're literally saying it. Forgot the thread title again. Silly me.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 9th, 2018 at 6:36pm

Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:38am:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/223275/in-the-battle-between-the-jews-and-the-muslims-at-the-end-of-time-the-aggressors-will-be-the-jew


All ahadith quotes, nothing from the quran old boy.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 9th, 2018 at 7:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 6:36pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:38am:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/223275/in-the-battle-between-the-jews-and-the-muslims-at-the-end-of-time-the-aggressors-will-be-the-jew


All ahadith quotes, nothing from the quran old boy.

Oh? Hadiths have nuffin' to do wiv nuffin' Islam now? Since when?? Mohammed's  sayings are now trash and mere hearsay about an irrelevant meshuggeh's unislamic gibberish?? When did you get that memo?
Cuz Mohammed has nuffin to do wiv Islam or nuffin. Cuz Muhammed has nuffin to do with the Koran neither. Different cuz.






Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 9th, 2018 at 8:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 6:34pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:15am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 7:57am:
Gandalf you appear to be falling back on accusing me of being impolite, rather than incorrect, when I say that all Muslims support genocide.


I think you are trying to get attention and create a scene by thinking up thread titles with what you must think are terribly clever and edgy memes. You do this all the time - the headline 'ABC proves muslims are lazy" is just one that comes to mind. The most farcical thing about this even more than your seeming inability to understand why implying that the entire muslim population supports genocide could possibly be incorrect - is claiming with a straight face that you are merely trying to generate constructive discussion.


Am I literally implying it?


Sorry, you're literally saying it. Forgot the thread title again. Silly me.


It's not a meme Gandalf. It's a statement.

All. Muslims. Support. Genocide.

Let's play multiple choice excuses.

* tough titties, off with their heads
* they were literally a mindless collective of treacherous Jews without an individual personality
* only the warriors were executed (Muhammad identified the warriors with a genital inspection) - repeat this three times
* the Jews made it up
* it is perfectly reasonable to deny the genocide happened, or attempt to downplay its extent, at the same time as supporting the genocide
* if wikipedia gives an example of a historian who thinks the treaty was actually a unilateral declaration by Muhammad, and that the copies of the treaty we have today list all the party tribes (the Jewish tribes are omitted), the only reasonable way to interpret this is as wikipedia claiming that not a single other historian in the world reaches the same conclusion
* it's not a proper genocide unless it's a holocaust
* it was just your average, ordinary every slaughter, cruisin' with Mo's Bactrian, to catch a pretty daughter....

Not sure how you managed a rant about the thread title while forgetting about the thread title.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 10th, 2018 at 8:10am

freediver wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 8:55pm:
All. Muslims. Support. Genocide.


Thanks FD. You're right - lets not gloss this over with silly talk of 'memes'. You are literally demonizing the entire population of muslims as bloodthirsty monsters. All 1.8 billion of us. But at least its not a meme, thats the important thing wot?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 10th, 2018 at 8:12am

Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 7:19pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 6:36pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:38am:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/223275/in-the-battle-between-the-jews-and-the-muslims-at-the-end-of-time-the-aggressors-will-be-the-jew


All ahadith quotes, nothing from the quran old boy.

Oh? Hadiths have nuffin' to do wiv nuffin' Islam now? Since when?? Mohammed's  sayings are now trash and mere hearsay about an irrelevant meshuggeh's unislamic gibberish?? When did you get that memo?
Cuz Mohammed has nuffin to do wiv Islam or nuffin. Cuz Muhammed has nuffin to do with the Koran neither. Different cuz.


You said the Quran said it.

You were wrong.

I take the quaint view that these small details of fact vs fiction actually matter.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 10th, 2018 at 12:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 8:10am:

freediver wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 8:55pm:
All. Muslims. Support. Genocide.


Thanks FD. You're right - lets not gloss this over with silly talk of 'memes'. You are literally demonizing the entire population of muslims as bloodthirsty monsters. All 1.8 billion of us. But at least its not a meme, thats the important thing wot?


No Gandalf. I am saying that all Muslims support genocide. Think of it like saying that all Nazis support genocide. This does not mean there are no polite Nazis with an aversion to getting their own hands dirty. It merely means that they all support genocide.

You are projecting onto my statement your view that only a "bloodthirsty monster" would support genocide, but as you yourself have argued, it is apparently possible to support genocide in a purely academic sense.

And you were right then to some extent. Here we are, talking about your excuses for slaughtering large numbers of innocent people, in a perfectly calm and rational manner, year after year. I presume you have not killed a single Jew in all that time. The ideology of Islam permits even people like you to jump on the bloodthirsty monster's bandwagon. I am still not sure how this works, but there is no rush.

You are the polite Nazi, the whore with a heart of gold, the noble savage. You are interesting.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Dec 10th, 2018 at 3:07pm
"Adolf Hitler used what is now called the Armenian holocaust as his model for an even greater holocaust. Ottoman Turks developed techniques later used by the Nazis, such as piling 90 people into a train car with a capacity of 36, and leaving them locked in for days, terrified, starving, and often dead.

"Hitler was even more impressed with how the Turks got away with genocide. When Hitler on Aug. 22, 1939, explained that his plans to invade Poland included the formation of death squads that would exterminate men, women, and children, he asked, ‘Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?’

"The Ottoman Turk government set up and paid special killing squads. The Ministry of the Interior gave instructions to ‘exterminate all males under 50, priests and teacher, leave girls and children to be Islamized.’ Historians and journalists have estimated that Turks killed 800,000 to 1 million Armenians in 1915 alone, and an additional 200,000 to 500,000 over the next seven years.

provincial governor Jevdet Bey gained the nickname ‘the horseshoe master’ because he nailed horseshoes to the feet of Armenians.

told of killing squads that planted their swords in the ground, blade up, at intervals of several yards. Killers on horseback each grabbed a girl, rode their horses at a controlled gallop, and tried to throw the girl so she would be impaled on a sword: ‘If the killer missed and the girl was only injured, she would be scooped up again until she was impaled on the protruding blade.’

They took the clothes off the girls. They made them bend down. And after raping them, they made them sit on the pointed wood,


nazis' and muslims what a toxic mix of human filth.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:05pm

freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 12:24pm:
No Gandalf. I am saying that all Muslims support genocide. Think of it like saying that all Nazis support genocide. This does not mean there are no polite Nazis with an aversion to getting their own hands dirty. It merely means that they all support genocide.

You are projecting onto my statement your view that only a "bloodthirsty monster" would support genocide, but as you yourself have argued, it is apparently possible to support genocide in a purely academic sense.

And you were right then to some extent. Here we are, talking about your excuses for slaughtering large numbers of innocent people, in a perfectly calm and rational manner, year after year. I presume you have not killed a single Jew in all that time. The ideology of Islam permits even people like you to jump on the bloodthirsty monster's bandwagon. I am still not sure how this works, but there is no rush.

You are the polite Nazi, the whore with a heart of gold, the noble savage. You are interesting.



So really, you're only point is that all musllms, while not all necessarily bloodthirsty monsters, all of them, to a man, woman and child, want large numbers of innocent people to be slaughtered - just as long as their hands don't get dirty?

Personally, I think someone can only support genocide if they firstly feel comfortable (and apparently morally superior) by dehumanizing entire populations with outrageous and offensive blanket slurs like "all muslims support genocide". But don't worry FD, you've definitely got the high moral ground on this one.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:07pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:05pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 12:24pm:
No Gandalf. I am saying that all Muslims support genocide. Think of it like saying that all Nazis support genocide. This does not mean there are no polite Nazis with an aversion to getting their own hands dirty. It merely means that they all support genocide.

You are projecting onto my statement your view that only a "bloodthirsty monster" would support genocide, but as you yourself have argued, it is apparently possible to support genocide in a purely academic sense.

And you were right then to some extent. Here we are, talking about your excuses for slaughtering large numbers of innocent people, in a perfectly calm and rational manner, year after year. I presume you have not killed a single Jew in all that time. The ideology of Islam permits even people like you to jump on the bloodthirsty monster's bandwagon. I am still not sure how this works, but there is no rush.

You are the polite Nazi, the whore with a heart of gold, the noble savage. You are interesting.



So really, you're only point is that all musllms, while not all necessarily bloodthirsty monsters, all of them, to a man, woman and child, want large numbers of innocent people to be slaughtered - just as long as their hands don't get dirty?

Personally, I think people don't support genocide unless they firstly dehumanize people with outrageous and offensive blanket slurs like "all muslims support genocide". But don't worry FD, you've definitely got the high moral ground on this one.


Some are more than happy to get their hands dirty. Including about 100 Aussie Muslims currently raping and pillaging their way across the middle east. Though I imagine a lot of them are dead by now.

If you have forgotten what my point is again, check the thread title. You have now spent about four pages forgetting my one and only point.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:09pm

freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
If you have forgotten what my point is again, check the thread title.


Don't worry FD, I won't forget you dehumanizing the entire muslim population with an outrageous blanket slur.

Good point.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:09pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:07pm:
If you have forgotten what my point is again, check the thread title.


Don't worry FD, I won't forget you dehumanizing the entire muslim population with an outrageous blanket slur.

Good point.


Then, you could read the opening post to see my justification for the claim. Don't worry Gandalf, it does not involve any mindless collectives.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:19pm
Ah yes, good point FD - you used the quote of one muslim to dehumanize the entire population - 1.8 billion men women and children. Good show. Where's that retard map again?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:23pm

freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:10pm:
Don't worry Gandalf, it does not involve any mindless collectives.


Wouldn't dream of it FD. You quoting a single individual to apply a group-think hive mind upon the entire 1.8 billion muslim men women and children might be a lot of things, but it definitely doesn't involve any mindless collectives. No sir

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:24pm

freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 12:16pm:
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.

This manifests itself in a variety of ways. For example, every Muslim who has posted here has attempted to excuse Muhammad's genocide by claiming that the three large Jewish tribes of Medina were party to the treaty of Medina and that each successively violated it, thus being to blame for their own genocide. This story appears to be a recent fabrication and Muslims refuse to discuss it's origin.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1543103591

Gandalf has been even more creative in coming up with ways to support genocide, trotting out such classics as:



freediver wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 8:55pm:
* tough titties, off with their heads
* they were literally a mindless collective of treacherous Jews without an individual personality
* only the warriors were executed (Muhammad identified the warriors with a genital inspection) - repeat this three times
* the Jews made it up
* it is perfectly reasonable to deny the genocide happened, or attempt to downplay its extent, at the same time as supporting the genocide
* if wikipedia gives an example of a historian who thinks the treaty was actually a unilateral declaration by Muhammad, and that the copies of the treaty we have today list all the party tribes (the Jewish tribes are omitted), the only reasonable way to interpret this is as wikipedia claiming that not a single other historian in the world reaches the same conclusion
* it's not a proper genocide unless it's a holocaust
* it was just your average, ordinary every slaughter, cruisin' with Mo's Bactrian, to catch a pretty daughter....


There is nothing in my arguments that is even remotely similar to your mindless collective of treacherous Jews argument. Your complaints are no different to a Nazi complaining about people demonising them, while trying to brush over the 6 million dead Jews.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 11th, 2018 at 8:22am

freediver wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:24pm:
There is nothing in my arguments that is even remotely similar to your mindless collective of treacherous Jews argument.


no, not at all...


Quote:
All Muslims support genocide


not even the full stop version:


Quote:
All. Muslims. Support. Genocide.


Its just a perfectly reasonable, considered rational assessment - based on extensive investigation and intimate surveys of the entire muslim population.

But please FD, go ahead and quote a single individual muslim to prove your point about 1.8 billion men women and children again.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm
I told you what it is based on Gandalf. You have spent 5 pages ignoring what I actually posted and substituting your own hysterical misrepresentation.

It is no different to a Nazi complaining about Nazis being "demonised" while ignoring the elephant in the room - the six million dead Jews.

I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide. All Muslims support and defend his actions. Therefor all Muslims support genocide. If you want to prove me wrong, all you have to do is find a Muslim who thinks Muhammad was wrong to slaughter those Jews.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide.


Yes! Because FD says so.

Have you ever heard the concept of a logical fallacy FD?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Dec 11th, 2018 at 4:09pm
They misinterpreted it?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 11th, 2018 at 5:58pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 8:12am:

Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 7:19pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 6:36pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:38am:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/223275/in-the-battle-between-the-jews-and-the-muslims-at-the-end-of-time-the-aggressors-will-be-the-jew


All ahadith quotes, nothing from the quran old boy.

Oh? Hadiths have nuffin' to do wiv nuffin' Islam now? Since when?? Mohammed's  sayings are now trash and mere hearsay about an irrelevant meshuggeh's unislamic gibberish?? When did you get that memo?
Cuz Mohammed has nuffin to do wiv Islam or nuffin. Cuz Muhammed has nuffin to do with the Koran neither. Different cuz.


You said the Quran said it.

You were wrong.

I take the quaint view that these small details of fact vs fiction actually matter.

A small detail which, for the purpose of the point, doesn't matter. 'Scholars' are quoting those hadiths.   It's an article of faith for Muslims, sunni and shia.


The Koran is a mish-mash, thrown together in the most bizarre manner, as are the hadiths.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2018 at 7:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide.


Yes! Because FD says so.

Have you ever heard the concept of a logical fallacy FD?


Again Gandalf, there are plenty of my own arguments you could attempt to refute, rather than making them up for me.

Even when you choose the genocide denial option, you still argue in support of Muhammad genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:38am

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 7:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide.


Yes! Because FD says so.

Have you ever heard the concept of a logical fallacy FD?


Again Gandalf, there are plenty of my own arguments you could attempt to refute, rather than making them up for me.

Even when you choose the genocide denial option, you still argue in support of Muhammad genocide.


FD how do I even begin to attempt to refute such a mind-numbingly stupid statement as "all muslims support genocide"? It belittles us both if I treat this as an actual reasonable argument that can be debated rationally and reasonably. The best I can do is simply to point out how mind-numbingly stupid it is. And nasty, and vindictive and utterly utterly bigoted.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 7:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide.


Yes! Because FD says so.

Have you ever heard the concept of a logical fallacy FD?


Again Gandalf, there are plenty of my own arguments you could attempt to refute, rather than making them up for me.

Even when you choose the genocide denial option, you still argue in support of Muhammad genocide.


FD how do I even begin to attempt to refute such a mind-numbingly stupid statement as "all muslims support genocide"? It belittles us both if I treat this as an actual reasonable argument that can be debated rationally and reasonably. The best I can do is simply to point out how mind-numbingly stupid it is. And nasty, and vindictive and utterly utterly bigoted.


I'm glad you finally figured out what the thread title says Gandalf. It's never too late to read the first post. We are only 5 pages in.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Aussie on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:14pm
What is tpg and tla?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:10pm
They are three letter acronyms Aussie.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Aussie on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:16pm

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:10pm:
They are three letter acronyms Aussie.


Yisss, Effendi, yisss......so now I know what the tla is but you forget to say what the tpg is.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2018 at 9:44pm
That's an ISP Aussie.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 12th, 2018 at 10:16pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 7:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide.


Yes! Because FD says so.

Have you ever heard the concept of a logical fallacy FD?


Again Gandalf, there are plenty of my own arguments you could attempt to refute, rather than making them up for me.

Even when you choose the genocide denial option, you still argue in support of Muhammad genocide.


FD how do I even begin to attempt to refute such a mind-numbingly stupid statement as "all muslims support genocide"? It belittles us both if I treat this as an actual reasonable argument that can be debated rationally and reasonably. The best I can do is simply to point out how mind-numbingly stupid it is. And nasty, and vindictive and utterly utterly bigoted.



The title of this thread and many others tries to get you and Muslims like you to say what, if anything, you are prepared to repudiate in the Koran and the hadiths.


But you are prepared to reject none of them yet claims some sort of reforming mission and progressive status, separate from the mindless Pakis baying for tthe blood of a woman merely because she drank from a Muslim cup.

You have not repudiated any of the texts of the koran and the hadiths that teach the need to kill off the Jews before peace can arrive on earth. You do not repudiate Mahomet's killing sprees but twist them into 'self-defence' as if wiping out entire population that have been defeated can be regarded as 'self-defence' and claiming, laughably self-servingly- divine guidance in every occasion.

What a hideous man and what fools who follow him as the best of men.  Your self-deception is staggering.






Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 13th, 2018 at 7:53am

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:01pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 7:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide.


Yes! Because FD says so.

Have you ever heard the concept of a logical fallacy FD?


Again Gandalf, there are plenty of my own arguments you could attempt to refute, rather than making them up for me.

Even when you choose the genocide denial option, you still argue in support of Muhammad genocide.


FD how do I even begin to attempt to refute such a mind-numbingly stupid statement as "all muslims support genocide"? It belittles us both if I treat this as an actual reasonable argument that can be debated rationally and reasonably. The best I can do is simply to point out how mind-numbingly stupid it is. And nasty, and vindictive and utterly utterly bigoted.


I'm glad you finally figured out what the thread title says Gandalf. It's never too late to read the first post. We are only 5 pages in.


Less catchy or 'meme-e', but a far more accurate thread title would be something like "All muslims support Muhammad's action against the Banu Qurayza, which I and almost certainly no one else, completely illogically, interpret as genocide"

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Aussie on Dec 13th, 2018 at 9:13am

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 9:44pm:
That's an ISP Aussie.


Mo is an ISP?  Huh?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 13th, 2018 at 12:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 7:53am:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:01pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 7:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide.


Yes! Because FD says so.

Have you ever heard the concept of a logical fallacy FD?


Again Gandalf, there are plenty of my own arguments you could attempt to refute, rather than making them up for me.

Even when you choose the genocide denial option, you still argue in support of Muhammad genocide.


FD how do I even begin to attempt to refute such a mind-numbingly stupid statement as "all muslims support genocide"? It belittles us both if I treat this as an actual reasonable argument that can be debated rationally and reasonably. The best I can do is simply to point out how mind-numbingly stupid it is. And nasty, and vindictive and utterly utterly bigoted.


I'm glad you finally figured out what the thread title says Gandalf. It's never too late to read the first post. We are only 5 pages in.


Less catchy or 'meme-e', but a far more accurate thread title would be something like "All muslims support Muhammad's action against the Banu Qurayza, which I and almost certainly no one else, completely illogically, interpret as genocide"


So you agree with me on the facts, you just want to put a positive spin on the mass slaughter of innocent Jews? Is this why it took you 6 pages to acknowledge the elephant in the room?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Dec 13th, 2018 at 2:01pm
why did you murder all those Banu Qurayza muhammad?

qur'an 8.67: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made a great slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 13th, 2018 at 2:58pm

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 12:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 7:53am:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:01pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 7:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'll spell it out for you again. Muhammad committed genocide.


Yes! Because FD says so.

Have you ever heard the concept of a logical fallacy FD?


Again Gandalf, there are plenty of my own arguments you could attempt to refute, rather than making them up for me.

Even when you choose the genocide denial option, you still argue in support of Muhammad genocide.


FD how do I even begin to attempt to refute such a mind-numbingly stupid statement as "all muslims support genocide"? It belittles us both if I treat this as an actual reasonable argument that can be debated rationally and reasonably. The best I can do is simply to point out how mind-numbingly stupid it is. And nasty, and vindictive and utterly utterly bigoted.


I'm glad you finally figured out what the thread title says Gandalf. It's never too late to read the first post. We are only 5 pages in.


Less catchy or 'meme-e', but a far more accurate thread title would be something like "All muslims support Muhammad's action against the Banu Qurayza, which I and almost certainly no one else, completely illogically, interpret as genocide"


So you agree with me on the facts, you just want to put a positive spin on the mass slaughter of innocent Jews? Is this why it took you 6 pages to acknowledge the elephant in the room?


No I don't agree with you on the facts FD. That should be pretty clear by now.

And I would be surprised if there's a single person other than you who would seriously consider the execution of a few hundred POWs as genocide. Its quite an insult to victims of actual genocide, actually. But we all know its a favourite theme of yours - like the 1948 war of independence was of course an attempted repeat of the holocaust. No exaggeration or superlative is too great when it comes to you demonizing muslims.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2018 at 12:17pm

Quote:
And I would be surprised if there's a single person other than you who would seriously consider the execution of a few hundred POWs as genocide.


Obviously if you failed to mention that they were also every adult male from the same tribe of a mindless collective of treacherous Jews, and that the war never actually happened, due to them surrendering without a fight, it would never occur to people to think it was a genocide. Particularly if you also omitted that it was part of a broader campaign in which all three large Jewish tribes in Medina ended up dead or repeatedly forced to leave their homes.

But most people would consider those omissions to be deceptive.

But just to humour you, I will add it to your ever growing multiple choice list of genocide apologetics:

* tough titties, off with their heads
* they were literally a mindless collective of treacherous Jews without an individual personality
* only the warriors were executed (Muhammad identified the warriors with a genital inspection) - repeat this three times
* the Jews made it up
* it is perfectly reasonable to deny the genocide happened, or attempt to downplay its extent, at the same time as supporting the genocide
* if wikipedia gives an example of a historian who thinks the treaty was actually a unilateral declaration by Muhammad, and that the copies of the treaty we have today list all the party tribes (the Jewish tribes are omitted), the only reasonable way to interpret this is as wikipedia claiming that not a single other historian in the world reaches the same conclusion
* it's not a proper genocide unless it's a holocaust
* it was just your average, ordinary every slaughter, cruisin' with Mo's Bactrian, to catch a pretty daughter....
* it was merely the mass execution of POWs - move along people, nothing to see here

BTW, can you give an example of a genocide that has happened that was not in the context of war and people being taken prisoner in large numbers? Does your excuse apply equally to every other genocide in the history of genocides, or is this a special excuse that only Muslims can use when promoting genocide?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by greggerypeccary on Dec 14th, 2018 at 12:18pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:16pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:10pm:
They are three letter acronyms Aussie.


Yisss, Effendi, yisss......so now I know what the tla is but you forget to say what the tpg is.


Total Peripherals Group?    :-/

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by greggerypeccary on Dec 14th, 2018 at 12:22pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:16pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:10pm:
They are three letter acronyms Aussie.


Yisss, Effendi, yisss......so now I know what the tla is but you forget to say what the tpg is.


Maybe it's TGP - The Great Prophet, The Greatest Person?   :-/


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 14th, 2018 at 2:53pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 12:17pm:
BTW, can you give an example of a genocide that has happened that was not in the context of war and people being taken prisoner in large numbers?


Put it this way, do any of the other countless examples of mass execution of POWs throughout all of history count as 'genocide' in your book, or is this the only one?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Dec 14th, 2018 at 4:25pm
The Forgotten Holocaust: The Armenian Genocide

Between 1915 and 1923, the Ottoman and Turkish governments systematically exterminated Armenians, virtually wiping out the more than 2 million Armenians present in the Ottoman Empire in 1915.

Armenians were stripped of their possessions then marched into the surrounding desert and left there to die without food, water, or shelter.

Many others were slaughtered in mass burnings, drownings, and gassings right there in their villages.

Others still were transported via railway to one of about two dozen concentration camps in the empire's eastern region, where they were starved, poisoned, or otherwise dispatched en masse.

It was the first modern genocide in world history.


Evil depraved muslims, the bane of civilization.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Cu Chullain on Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:01am

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 12:22pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:16pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:10pm:
They are three letter acronyms Aussie.


Yisss, Effendi, yisss......so now I know what the tla is but you forget to say what the tpg is.


Maybe it's TGP - The Great Prophet, The Greatest Person?   :-/


Even you can't believe that. Let's go with something closer to the truth, The Genocidal Prophet and be done with this questioning over an acronym. Any nay sayers?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Laugh till you cry on Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:13am

Cu Chullain wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 12:01am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 12:22pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:16pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 8:10pm:
They are three letter acronyms Aussie.


Yisss, Effendi, yisss......so now I know what the tla is but you forget to say what the tpg is.


Maybe it's TGP - The Great Prophet, The Greatest Person?   :-/


Even you can't believe that. Let's go with something closer to the truth, The Genocidal Prophet and be done with this questioning over an acronym. Any nay sayers?


I'm glad you made that clear:

https://youtu.be/m9iaEWrYv3k

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2018 at 2:43pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 2:53pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2018 at 12:17pm:
BTW, can you give an example of a genocide that has happened that was not in the context of war and people being taken prisoner in large numbers?


Put it this way, do any of the other countless examples of mass execution of POWs throughout all of history count as 'genocide' in your book, or is this the only one?


Sure, like the ones where they took the whole tribe into custody before slaughtering them. But most people would go with genocide first. I don't see how a Nazi would have any more difficulty than you claiming the holocaust was merely slaughtering POWs.

It really hasn't dawned on you how feeble your excuses for genocide are, has it?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2018 at 3:00pm
http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Muslims_Promote_Genocide

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 15th, 2018 at 7:56pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 2:43pm:
I don't see how a Nazi would have any more difficulty than you claiming the holocaust was merely slaughtering POWs.


Sorry FD, could you just clarify for us - you are actually saying there is no difference between the holocaust and a 7th century mass execution of a few hundred male POWs?

Do you reckon its just a little bit of an insult to jewish survivors of the holocaust to insist that what their people went through was not really any different to any run-of-the-mill wartime massacre - even ones that targeted only military aged males?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 16th, 2018 at 5:59am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 7:56pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 2:43pm:
I don't see how a Nazi would have any more difficulty than you claiming the holocaust was merely slaughtering POWs.


Sorry FD, could you just clarify for us - you are actually saying there is no difference between the holocaust and a 7th century mass execution of a few hundred male POWs?

Do you reckon its just a little bit of an insult to jewish survivors of the holocaust to insist that what their people went through was not really any different to any run-of-the-mill wartime massacre - even ones that targeted only military aged males?


What I am actually saying is in the bit you quoted.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 17th, 2018 at 1:44pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2018 at 5:59am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 7:56pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 2:43pm:
I don't see how a Nazi would have any more difficulty than you claiming the holocaust was merely slaughtering POWs.


Sorry FD, could you just clarify for us - you are actually saying there is no difference between the holocaust and a 7th century mass execution of a few hundred male POWs?

Do you reckon its just a little bit of an insult to jewish survivors of the holocaust to insist that what their people went through was not really any different to any run-of-the-mill wartime massacre - even ones that targeted only military aged males?


What I am actually saying is in the bit you quoted.


What you also said was that the alleged mass execution of the Banu Qurayza was a genocide. Since then you have been bringing in the nazis at every possible opportunity.

Some people can put two and two together FD.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 17th, 2018 at 6:33pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 1:44pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2018 at 5:59am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 7:56pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 2:43pm:
I don't see how a Nazi would have any more difficulty than you claiming the holocaust was merely slaughtering POWs.


Sorry FD, could you just clarify for us - you are actually saying there is no difference between the holocaust and a 7th century mass execution of a few hundred male POWs?

Do you reckon its just a little bit of an insult to jewish survivors of the holocaust to insist that what their people went through was not really any different to any run-of-the-mill wartime massacre - even ones that targeted only military aged males?


What I am actually saying is in the bit you quoted.


What you also said was that the alleged mass execution of the Banu Qurayza was a genocide. Since then you have been bringing in the nazis at every possible opportunity.

Some people can put two and two together FD.

Islam generally and Mohammed's conduct in particular have very strong affinities with nazi thinking. The submit or I'll kill you is an obvious and inescapable example of the totalitarian violence that is Islam.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 1:44pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2018 at 5:59am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 7:56pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 2:43pm:
I don't see how a Nazi would have any more difficulty than you claiming the holocaust was merely slaughtering POWs.


Sorry FD, could you just clarify for us - you are actually saying there is no difference between the holocaust and a 7th century mass execution of a few hundred male POWs?

Do you reckon its just a little bit of an insult to jewish survivors of the holocaust to insist that what their people went through was not really any different to any run-of-the-mill wartime massacre - even ones that targeted only military aged males?


What I am actually saying is in the bit you quoted.


What you also said was that the alleged mass execution of the Banu Qurayza was a genocide. Since then you have been bringing in the nazis at every possible opportunity.

Some people can put two and two together FD.


Yes, but what do they come up with?

There are all sorts of comparisons you can make between Islam and Nazism. Let me know if you would like me to bump the thread.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:48pm
Gandalf,

Does Israel have the right to exist?



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:52am

Frank wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:48pm:
Gandalf,

Does Israel have the right to exist?


A silly and pointless debate.

It exists because it can, and because no one is able to prevent it so. Just like every other country that survives today.

Might is right, thats really all there is to it.

The real question though is, is it sustainable, and if it is, for how long? Demographics are against them. Are they shooting themselves in the foot by stubbornly holding on to the west bank and claiming it as part of Israel - while at the same time refusing citizenship rights for the majority of the people under their sovereignty (and no, Palestinians are not uniformly snubbing Israeli citizenship, and yes, most applicants are rejected by Israel)? A society that tries to maintain a permanent sub-class of discriminated non-citizens is not a viable society IMO. From where I stand they have but two choices - assuming an entire withdrawal from the WB is out of the question (facts on the ground and all that): 1. grant citizenship rights to all people under their control - in which case Israel will cease to exist as a 'jewish' state. or 2. Attempt to maintain the status quo forever - in which case they will probably eventually implode economically - due to both maintaining the occupation, and international pressure.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:56am

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:30pm:
Yes, but what do they come up with?


a guy desparate to equate "all muslims" with nazis.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:30pm:
Yes, but what do they come up with?


a guy desparate to equate "all muslims" with nazis.


I do not equate. I compare and contrast. The Nazis got things done. Muslims crap on their own plate. But they both slaughtered Jews, and would continue to do so if we did not stand in their way.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:25pm

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:28pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:30pm:
Yes, but what do they come up with?


a guy desparate to equate "all muslims" with nazis.


I do not equate. I compare and contrast. The Nazis got things done. Muslims crap on their own plate. But they both slaughtered Jews, and would continue to do so if we did not stand in their way.


Yes, muslims are the same as nazis - except muslims are much less competent.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:52am:

Frank wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:48pm:
Gandalf,

Does Israel have the right to exist?


A silly and pointless debate.

It exists because it can, and because no one is able to prevent it so. Just like every other country that survives today.



It's the heart of the matter -and you deflect from it like all Muslims.

If Muslim countries would recognise Israel's right to exist there would not have been '67 war and the WB and Gaza would still be under Jordanian and Egyptian rule and the creation of any Palestinian state out of them would be an entirely internal Arab Muslim issue, nothing to do with Israel.

But Muslim will never recognise Israel - yes, Paki B, never ever -  because that would go against the heart of Islam and the Koran. To have a Jewish reconquista is unbearable for the Muslims and they will never allow that tiny sliver of a Jewish state to live in peace and cooperation with its Muslim neighbours.
Islam is NOT a religion of peace and Israel is a daily reminder, if a reminder was needed.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm

Frank wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:52am:

Frank wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:48pm:
Gandalf,

Does Israel have the right to exist?


A silly and pointless debate.

It exists because it can, and because no one is able to prevent it so. Just like every other country that survives today.



It's the heart of the matter -and you deflect from it like all Muslims.

If Muslim countries would recognise Israel's right to exist there would not have been '67 war and the WB and Gaza would still be under Jordanian and Egyptian rule and the creation of any Palestinian state out of them would be an entirely internal Arab Muslim issue, nothing to do with Israel.

But Muslim will never recognise Israel - yes, Paki B, never ever -  because that would go against the heart of Islam and the Koran. To have a Jewish reconquista is unbearable for the Muslims and they will never allow that tiny sliver of a Jewish state to live in peace and cooperation with its Muslim neighbours.
Islam is NOT a religion of peace and Israel is a daily reminder, if a reminder was needed.


never ever? Like Egypt, like Jordan, like Indonesia.. is that what you mean frank?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Aussie on Dec 18th, 2018 at 6:52pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:52am:

Frank wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:48pm:
Gandalf,

Does Israel have the right to exist?


A silly and pointless debate.

It exists because it can, and because no one is able to prevent it so. Just like every other country that survives today.



It's the heart of the matter -and you deflect from it like all Muslims.

If Muslim countries would recognise Israel's right to exist there would not have been '67 war and the WB and Gaza would still be under Jordanian and Egyptian rule and the creation of any Palestinian state out of them would be an entirely internal Arab Muslim issue, nothing to do with Israel.

But Muslim will never recognise Israel - yes, Paki B, never ever -  because that would go against the heart of Islam and the Koran. To have a Jewish reconquista is unbearable for the Muslims and they will never allow that tiny sliver of a Jewish state to live in peace and cooperation with its Muslim neighbours.
Islam is NOT a religion of peace and Israel is a daily reminder, if a reminder was needed.


never ever? Like Egypt, like Jordan, like Indonesia.. is that what you mean frank?


*Boom!*

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:25pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:28pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:30pm:
Yes, but what do they come up with?


a guy desparate to equate "all muslims" with nazis.


I do not equate. I compare and contrast. The Nazis got things done. Muslims crap on their own plate. But they both slaughtered Jews, and would continue to do so if we did not stand in their way.


Yes, muslims are the same as nazis - except muslims are much less competent.

Thanks for clearing that up.


See. Not identical. Now you can disagree with what I actually say instead of inventing your own version.

Can you give an example of a Muslim country from the last century that was as "effective" as the Nazis? Afghanistan under the Taliban perhaps?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 19th, 2018 at 8:45am

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:25pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:28pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:30pm:
Yes, but what do they come up with?


a guy desparate to equate "all muslims" with nazis.


I do not equate. I compare and contrast. The Nazis got things done. Muslims crap on their own plate. But they both slaughtered Jews, and would continue to do so if we did not stand in their way.


Yes, muslims are the same as nazis - except muslims are much less competent.

Thanks for clearing that up.


See. Not identical. Now you can disagree with what I actually say instead of inventing your own version.

Can you give an example of a Muslim country from the last century that was as "effective" as the Nazis? Afghanistan under the Taliban perhaps?


It was not an invention. Morally, nazis and muslims are literally identical in your book - or if anything muslims are worse. Thats all I've been ever saying, and it is a repugnant and deeply deeply offensive view.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 19th, 2018 at 11:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 6:48pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 5:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:52am:

Frank wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:48pm:
Gandalf,

Does Israel have the right to exist?


A silly and pointless debate.

It exists because it can, and because no one is able to prevent it so. Just like every other country that survives today.



It's the heart of the matter -and you deflect from it like all Muslims.

If Muslim countries would recognise Israel's right to exist there would not have been '67 war and the WB and Gaza would still be under Jordanian and Egyptian rule and the creation of any Palestinian state out of them would be an entirely internal Arab Muslim issue, nothing to do with Israel.

But Muslim will never recognise Israel - yes, Paki B, never ever -  because that would go against the heart of Islam and the Koran. To have a Jewish reconquista is unbearable for the Muslims and they will never allow that tiny sliver of a Jewish state to live in peace and cooperation with its Muslim neighbours.
Islam is NOT a religion of peace and Israel is a daily reminder, if a reminder was needed.


never ever? Like Egypt, like Jordan, like Indonesia.. is that what you mean frank?



Me'h.

A peace treaty so the '67 war could be concluded.  I don't think there was anything in that about Israel's right to exist within pre-67 borders.

West Jerusalem, now recognised by the Us, Oz, Brazil etc, as Israel's capital, was always part of Israel since 47 and before that, during Roman times. West Jerusalem was captured FROM the Jordanians in 67 after the Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrian attacked Israel.

Jerusalem was never the capital of any Muslim entity. Still isn't.


Indonesia never recognised Israel - they wouldn't be fuming now about Australia' move of the embassy if they had.




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Dec 19th, 2018 at 11:26pm

Quote:
Morally, nazis and muslims are literally identical in your book - or if anything muslims are worse.


Question/. Do muslims believe that in the future they are going to kill all the Jews?

Answer/. Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.

Stones are going to speak and help muslims kill Jews?

Why do I get the feeling that the muzzies are at the top of the evil tree?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 19th, 2018 at 11:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 19th, 2018 at 8:45am:
It was not an invention. Morally, nazis and muslims are literally identical in your book - or if anything muslims are worse. Thats all I've been ever saying, and it is a repugnant and deeply deeply offensive view.

Muslism have been at least as ruthless and murderous in the name of their ideology as nazis in theirs. hence the comparison.

Islam precedes Stalinism and Nazism and has been showing the way to them: blindly fanatic, murderous, monomaniac.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:12pm
https://www.afr.com/news/economy/jews-are-the-first-peoples-of-israel--with-a-right-to-exist-20170306-gurkqg

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:36pm

Frank wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
https://www.afr.com/news/economy/jews-are-the-first-peoples-of-israel--with-a-right-to-exist-20170306-gurkqg


Presumably their "right to exist" extends to the right to drive people out of their homes at gun point.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 20th, 2018 at 5:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:36pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
https://www.afr.com/news/economy/jews-are-the-first-peoples-of-israel--with-a-right-to-exist-20170306-gurkqg


Presumably their "right to exist" extends to the right to drive people out of their homes at gun point.


Like Mohammed drove the Jews out, you mean?   The Muslims are doing that very well. Where are the 'assimilated and flourishing Jews' of Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Pakistan

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 20th, 2018 at 6:37pm

Frank wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 5:37pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:36pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
https://www.afr.com/news/economy/jews-are-the-first-peoples-of-israel--with-a-right-to-exist-20170306-gurkqg


Presumably their "right to exist" extends to the right to drive people out of their homes at gun point.


Like Mohammed drove the Jews out, you mean?   The Muslims are doing that very well. Where are the 'assimilated and flourishing Jews' of Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Pakistan


soooo... the zionists were justified in ethnically cleansing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians at gunpoint - because of an incident 1400 years ago?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 21st, 2018 at 12:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 6:37pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 5:37pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:36pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 20th, 2018 at 1:12pm:
https://www.afr.com/news/economy/jews-are-the-first-peoples-of-israel--with-a-right-to-exist-20170306-gurkqg


Presumably their "right to exist" extends to the right to drive people out of their homes at gun point.


Like Mohammed drove the Jews out, you mean?   The Muslims are doing that very well. Where are the 'assimilated and flourishing Jews' of Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Pakistan


soooo... the zionists were justified in ethnically cleansing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians at gunpoint - because of an incident 1400 years ago?


Ooh no. The Zionists are justified in ethnic cleansing because your Muselman is tinted. Inferior culture, you see.

And that's the old boy's argument in a nutshell.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 21st, 2018 at 1:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 19th, 2018 at 8:45am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 7:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 2:25pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 12:28pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 18th, 2018 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 7:30pm:
Yes, but what do they come up with?


a guy desparate to equate "all muslims" with nazis.


I do not equate. I compare and contrast. The Nazis got things done. Muslims crap on their own plate. But they both slaughtered Jews, and would continue to do so if we did not stand in their way.


Yes, muslims are the same as nazis - except muslims are much less competent.

Thanks for clearing that up.


See. Not identical. Now you can disagree with what I actually say instead of inventing your own version.

Can you give an example of a Muslim country from the last century that was as "effective" as the Nazis? Afghanistan under the Taliban perhaps?


It was not an invention. Morally, nazis and muslims are literally identical in your book - or if anything muslims are worse. Thats all I've been ever saying, and it is a repugnant and deeply deeply offensive view.


Islam is worse, because Muhammad made a religion out of fascism. It destroyed western civilisation, and Muhammad got his thousand year reich. We got rid of the Nazis after a decade or so. Muslims are still raping and pillaging their way across the middle east, just like Muhammad did.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 21st, 2018 at 2:56pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 1:04pm:
Islam is worse, because Muhammad made a religion out of fascism. It destroyed western civilisation, and Muhammad got his thousand year reich. We got rid of the Nazis after a decade or so. Muslims are still raping and pillaging their way across the middle east, just like Muhammad did.


This is FD pretending he wasn't trying to demonize an entire population by implying that every muslim man woman and child are literally as evil as genocidal nazis - and subtly trying to turn it into a far less offensive slur against a mere ideology.

I must say FD, for all your confused and illogical mumblings, your skill at deliberately bluring the lines between legitimate criticism of ideology and bigoted racist attacks against a group of people - is second to none.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 9:04am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 2:56pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 21st, 2018 at 1:04pm:
Islam is worse, because Muhammad made a religion out of fascism. It destroyed western civilisation, and Muhammad got his thousand year reich. We got rid of the Nazis after a decade or so. Muslims are still raping and pillaging their way across the middle east, just like Muhammad did.


This is FD pretending he wasn't trying to demonize an entire population by implying that every muslim man woman and child are literally as evil as genocidal nazis - and subtly trying to turn it into a far less offensive slur against a mere ideology.

I must say FD, for all your confused and illogical mumblings, your skill at deliberately bluring the lines between legitimate criticism of ideology and bigoted racist attacks against a group of people - is second to none.


Can you explain what you consider to be acceptable or legitimate criticism of Islam?

Also, are you suggesting that we must not let people's beliefs reflect badly on them? For example, are we not allowed to think less of Nazis on account of them being Nazis, or worse still, criticise them, in case someone decides Nazis need a safe space?

Would you like me to be more polite when I accuse you of justifying genocide with your mindless collective of treacherous Jews lie? BTW, where did you get that one from?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 9:38am

Quote:
trying to demonize an entire population by implying



:'( :'( :'(



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 2:09pm
I am implying that jihadists are only following islam / qur'an when they commit unspeakably depraved crimes against the unbeliever and hypocrite believers.

I am implying that *moderates* give passive support to these degenerate islamic activities, when they refuse to criticize and purge the evil in the qur'an which causes and motivates the  islamic jihadists' malefic deeds.

I am implying that sick leftards also support this islamic putrefaction by their never ending refusal to condemn islam for what it is, (a death cult). 

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 8:47pm
Are all Muslims - believing, devout - morons?


https://youtu.be/r93oq-VRm_w

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 24th, 2018 at 8:40am

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 9:04am:
Can you explain what you consider to be acceptable or legitimate criticism of Islam?


Its not rocket science, criticise the ideology and any individuals who specifically adhere to that ideology - without making blanket slurs that demonize an entire population.

case in point:
- "the belief that genocide is awesome - is repugnant and should be condemned. Furthermore, I condemn any muslim who holds such beliefs." - gets the gandalf tick of approval

- "all muslims support genocide" - is bigoted, racist, not to mention utterly baseless, rubbish.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 24th, 2018 at 9:19am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 8:40am:

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 9:04am:
Can you explain what you consider to be acceptable or legitimate criticism of Islam?


Its not rocket science, criticise the ideology and any individuals who specifically adhere to that ideology - without making blanket slurs that demonize an entire population.

case in point:
- "the belief that genocide is awesome - is repugnant and should be condemned. Furthermore, I condemn any muslim who holds such beliefs." - gets the gandalf tick of approval

- "all muslims support genocide" - is bigoted, racist, not to mention utterly baseless, rubbish.


How is it wacist Gandalf?

Also, other than you spending 12 pages dodging the basis for the claim, how is it  baseless? Have you not yet read the opening post?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 24th, 2018 at 10:25am

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 9:19am:
Also, other than you spending 12 pages dodging the basis for the claim, how is it  baseless?


most muslims don't support genocide. Insisting that the proof of this claim is reference to an alleged massacre by Muhammad of an unknown number of military aged males of a tiny tribe in the 7th century who are believed to have violated a treaty and initiated war against him - is the most facile attempt at logic you're likely to ever come across.

Using your tired old strategy of resorting to yet another 'reductio ad Hitlerum' to prop up your case, while none-to-subtly equating "all muslims" (every man woman and child) to genocidal nazis, just breaks the scales of stupid.

Would you like me to spend another 12 pages ramming that point home again?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 24th, 2018 at 10:27am

Quote:
most muslims don't support genocide. Insisting that the proof of this claim is reference to an alleged massacre by Muhammad of an unknown number of military aged males of a tiny tribe in the 7th century who are believed to have violated a treaty and initiated war against him - is the most facile attempt at logic you're likely to ever come across


So you are arguing that a massacre of Jews that even you support does not count as a "base" for an accusation that all Muslims support genocide?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Dec 24th, 2018 at 10:36am

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 10:27am:

Quote:
most muslims don't support genocide. Insisting that the proof of this claim is reference to an alleged massacre by Muhammad of an unknown number of military aged males of a tiny tribe in the 7th century who are believed to have violated a treaty and initiated war against him - is the most facile attempt at logic you're likely to ever come across


So you are arguing that a massacre of Jews that even you support does not count as a "base" for an accusation that all Muslims support genocide?


not if you can't provide a coherent explanation for why a standard run-of-the-mill mass execution of POWs is a 'genocide' - that is somehow morally equivalent to the slaughter of 6 million men women and children.

Not when it provides such an obvious platform for you to demonize evern muslim man woman and child as literally the same as genocidal nazis.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 24th, 2018 at 12:48pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 10:36am:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 10:27am:

Quote:
most muslims don't support genocide. Insisting that the proof of this claim is reference to an alleged massacre by Muhammad of an unknown number of military aged males of a tiny tribe in the 7th century who are believed to have violated a treaty and initiated war against him - is the most facile attempt at logic you're likely to ever come across


So you are arguing that a massacre of Jews that even you support does not count as a "base" for an accusation that all Muslims support genocide?


not if you can't provide a coherent explanation for why a standard run-of-the-mill mass execution of POWs is a 'genocide' - that is somehow morally equivalent to the slaughter of 6 million men women and children.

Not when it provides such an obvious platform for you to demonize evern muslim man woman and child as literally the same as genocidal nazis.


Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Aussie on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:14pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi


Neither were the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad Aussie. Though Muslims will claim that Muhammad was able to tell why was a "potential combatant" by inspecting their genitals.

Again Aussie, if you are going to defend Islam while pretending not to defend Islam, I suggest some other strategy besides your complete ignorance of Islam.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Aussie on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:32pm

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi


Neither were the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad Aussie. Though Muslims will claim that Muhammad was able to tell why was a "potential combatant" by inspecting their genitals.

Again Aussie, if you are going to defend Islam while pretending not to defend Islam, I suggest some other strategy besides your complete ignorance of Islam.


Oh...not militants at all, Effendi?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 24th, 2018 at 5:14pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:32pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi


Neither were the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad Aussie. Though Muslims will claim that Muhammad was able to tell why was a "potential combatant" by inspecting their genitals.

Again Aussie, if you are going to defend Islam while pretending not to defend Islam, I suggest some other strategy besides your complete ignorance of Islam.


Oh...not militants at all, Effendi?


No Aussie. Innocent Jews, slaughtered by Muhammad, which you and Gandalf now defend. At least from Gandalf it makes sense. No idea why you have so much to say on the topic, despite openly admitting that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Aussie on Dec 24th, 2018 at 5:18pm
So...why have you been referring to them as treacherous...if they were innocent, Effendi?

What were they innocent of Effendi?


Quote:
No idea why you have so much to say on the topic, despite openly admitting that you have no clue what you are talking about.


I know full well what I am talking about Effendi...and it sure isn't Islam I am talking about, of which I know SFA.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Dec 24th, 2018 at 6:55pm
I refer to them as treacherous and a mindless collective because that was the justification used by Gandalf to justify the genocide.


Quote:
I know full well what I am talking about Effendi


So why do you keep justifying the ridiculous things you say by insisting you know nothing about Islam?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 26th, 2018 at 7:06pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 8:40am:

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 9:04am:
Can you explain what you consider to be acceptable or legitimate criticism of Islam?


Its not rocket science, criticise the ideology and any individuals who specifically adhere to that ideology - without making blanket slurs that demonize an entire population.

case in point:
- "the belief that genocide is awesome - is repugnant and should be condemned. Furthermore, I condemn any muslim who holds such beliefs." - gets the gandalf tick of approval

- "all muslims support genocide" - is bigoted, racist, not to mention utterly baseless, rubbish.

How would you deal with the Jews in Israel if it all suddenly became Palestine, a single muslim country? (Which is what all you Muslim want).

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 28th, 2018 at 9:44pm

Frank wrote on Dec 26th, 2018 at 7:06pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 8:40am:

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 9:04am:
Can you explain what you consider to be acceptable or legitimate criticism of Islam?


Its not rocket science, criticise the ideology and any individuals who specifically adhere to that ideology - without making blanket slurs that demonize an entire population.

case in point:
- "the belief that genocide is awesome - is repugnant and should be condemned. Furthermore, I condemn any muslim who holds such beliefs." - gets the gandalf tick of approval

- "all muslims support genocide" - is bigoted, racist, not to mention utterly baseless, rubbish.

How would you deal with the Jews in Israel if it all suddenly became Palestine, a single muslim country? (Which is what all you Muslim want).

They are looking at their shoes, muttering darkly....


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 29th, 2018 at 11:42am
Moron or parody?

https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1078541562743668736?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Moron.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2018 at 1:26pm

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
I refer to them as treacherous and a mindless collective because that was the justification used by Gandalf to justify the genocide.


Exactly. You call them a treacherous mindless collective because G quoted you calling them a treacherous mindless collective.

G said it, FD. Did you put it in the Wiki?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2018 at 1:31pm

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi


Neither were the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad Aussie. Though Muslims will claim that Muhammad was able to tell why was a "potential combatant" by inspecting their genitals.

Again Aussie, if you are going to defend Islam while pretending not to defend Islam, I suggest some other strategy besides your complete ignorance of Islam.


That's true, Aussie. You should agree with FD because he knows all about Islam.

It's not good enough to defend people's right to follow a religion of their choice. You might not agree with what FD has to say, but you should fight to the death to blame Islam, no?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Dec 29th, 2018 at 3:47pm
People have the right to follow their religion of choice.

When one religion in particular is split into two schisms e.g.:

One side totally believes the many and varied verses of doctrine, which give acceptance to, pedophilia rape torture and mass murder as the satisfactory path for the adherents to follow.

The other side lies snivels and sneaks, as it tries to excuse the doctrine as being misunderstood mistranslated doctrine of peace.

Well in that case we then have the inalienable right to decry and denigrate, mock and ridicule such a toxic putrid religious cult.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:10pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 1:31pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi


Neither were the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad Aussie. Though Muslims will claim that Muhammad was able to tell why was a "potential combatant" by inspecting their genitals.

Again Aussie, if you are going to defend Islam while pretending not to defend Islam, I suggest some other strategy besides your complete ignorance of Islam.


That's true, Aussie. You should agree with FD because he knows all about Islam.

It's not good enough to defend people's right to follow a religion of their choice. You might not agree with what FD has to say, but you should fight to the death to blame Islam, no?



You should also defend people's right to criticise and oppose and reject any ideology or religion, Paki Bvgger. But with Islam that's verboten.

Freedom, innit.  Goes both ways or it ain't freedom -  which is what PBs like you and the Musulmans are trying to exploit  - one way freedom, one way tolerance.  "You can have any beliefs as long as you submit to Islam".





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:11pm

moses wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
People have the right to follow their religion of choice.

When one religion in particular is split into two schisms e.g.:

One side totally believes the many and varied verses of doctrine, which give acceptance to, pedophilia rape torture and mass murder as the satisfactory path for the adherents to follow.

The other side lies snivels and sneaks, as it tries to excuse the doctrine as being misunderstood mistranslated doctrine of peace.

Well in that case we then have the inalienable right to decry and denigrate, mock and ridicule such a toxic putrid religious cult.


We might not agree with what they say, Moses, but we'll fight to the death to tell them what they believe, innit.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:13pm

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 1:31pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi


Neither were the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad Aussie. Though Muslims will claim that Muhammad was able to tell why was a "potential combatant" by inspecting their genitals.

Again Aussie, if you are going to defend Islam while pretending not to defend Islam, I suggest some other strategy besides your complete ignorance of Islam.


That's true, Aussie. You should agree with FD because he knows all about Islam.

It's not good enough to defend people's right to follow a religion of their choice. You might not agree with what FD has to say, but you should fight to the death to blame Islam, no?



You should also defend people's right to criticse and oppose any ideology or religion, Paki Bvgger.

Freedom, innit.  Goes both ways or it ain't freedom -  which is what PBs like you and the Musulmans are trying to exploit  - one way freedom, one way tolerance.


I most certainly do, old boy. Here's moi defending FD's right to tell porkies.

I, you see, uphold that right.

You?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:39pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:13pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 1:31pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi


Neither were the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad Aussie. Though Muslims will claim that Muhammad was able to tell why was a "potential combatant" by inspecting their genitals.

Again Aussie, if you are going to defend Islam while pretending not to defend Islam, I suggest some other strategy besides your complete ignorance of Islam.


That's true, Aussie. You should agree with FD because he knows all about Islam.

It's not good enough to defend people's right to follow a religion of their choice. You might not agree with what FD has to say, but you should fight to the death to blame Islam, no?



You should also defend people's right to criticse and oppose any ideology or religion, Paki Bvgger.

Freedom, innit.  Goes both ways or it ain't freedom -  which is what PBs like you and the Musulmans are trying to exploit  - one way freedom, one way tolerance.


I most certainly do, old boy. Here's moi defending FD's right to tell porkies.

I, you see, uphold that right.

You?



Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:55pm

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:39pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:13pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 1:31pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Oh dear Effendi......


Quote:
Would you also argue that the holocaust was not a genocide because the victims were POWs?


I thought there were people in internment camps, not POWs.  They were not captured combatants, Effendi


Neither were the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad Aussie. Though Muslims will claim that Muhammad was able to tell why was a "potential combatant" by inspecting their genitals.

Again Aussie, if you are going to defend Islam while pretending not to defend Islam, I suggest some other strategy besides your complete ignorance of Islam.


That's true, Aussie. You should agree with FD because he knows all about Islam.

It's not good enough to defend people's right to follow a religion of their choice. You might not agree with what FD has to say, but you should fight to the death to blame Islam, no?



You should also defend people's right to criticse and oppose any ideology or religion, Paki Bvgger.

Freedom, innit.  Goes both ways or it ain't freedom -  which is what PBs like you and the Musulmans are trying to exploit  - one way freedom, one way tolerance.


I most certainly do, old boy. Here's moi defending FD's right to tell porkies.

I, you see, uphold that right.

You?



Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.


I see. So what does one call a strategy where you interrogate a member for months in a thread to get him to confess, and when he holds firm, pretending he confessed anyway?

What does one call the old Mindless Collective ruse? I'm curious.

Truthful hyperbole?

Alternative facts?

In the words of your prophet, please explain?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 29th, 2018 at 7:12pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
So what does one call a strategy where you interrogate a member for months in a thread to get him to confess, and when he holds firm, pretending he confessed anyway?

What does one call the old Mindless Collective ruse? I'm curious.

Truthful hyperbole?

Alternative facts?

In the words of your prophet, please explain?


Who gives a farck???


Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2018 at 8:05pm

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 7:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
So what does one call a strategy where you interrogate a member for months in a thread to get him to confess, and when he holds firm, pretending he confessed anyway?

What does one call the old Mindless Collective ruse? I'm curious.

Truthful hyperbole?

Alternative facts?

In the words of your prophet, please explain?


Who gives a farck???


Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.


I think you misread my question, old boy. I'll attempt to rephrase it for you. What do we call the old Mindless Collective ruse? This is where you trick someone into repeating your words, then you pretend they said it first.

Likewise, what do we call a spineless jellyfish who feigns horror that G supports the destruction of the Jewish race - as modelled by his sinister prophet when he executed what G calls a treacherous mindless collective of them?

And lucky last, what do we call a cunning old poster who pretends G's out to kill him and the jellyfish for insulting G's hideous genocidal prophet?

Stupid? Mendacious? Shurely shome mishtake? All three?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:11pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 8:05pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 7:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
So what does one call a strategy where you interrogate a member for months in a thread to get him to confess, and when he holds firm, pretending he confessed anyway?

What does one call the old Mindless Collective ruse? I'm curious.

Truthful hyperbole?

Alternative facts?

In the words of your prophet, please explain?


Who gives a farck???


Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.


I think you misread my question, old boy. I'll attempt to rephrase it for you. What do we call the old Mindless Collective ruse? This is where you trick someone into repeating your words, then you pretend they said it first.

Likewise, what do we call a spineless jellyfish who feigns horror that G supports the destruction of the Jewish race - as modelled by his sinister prophet when he executed what G calls a treacherous mindless collective of them?

And lucky last, what do we call a cunning old poster who pretends G's out to kill him and the jellyfish for insulting G's hideous genocidal prophet?

Stupid? Mendacious? Shurely shome mishtake? All three?

Islam wants to take over and dominate and they will lie to get there.

Like you.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2018 at 11:17pm

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 8:05pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 7:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
So what does one call a strategy where you interrogate a member for months in a thread to get him to confess, and when he holds firm, pretending he confessed anyway?

What does one call the old Mindless Collective ruse? I'm curious.

Truthful hyperbole?

Alternative facts?

In the words of your prophet, please explain?


Who gives a farck???


Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.


I think you misread my question, old boy. I'll attempt to rephrase it for you. What do we call the old Mindless Collective ruse? This is where you trick someone into repeating your words, then you pretend they said it first.

Likewise, what do we call a spineless jellyfish who feigns horror that G supports the destruction of the Jewish race - as modelled by his sinister prophet when he executed what G calls a treacherous mindless collective of them?

And lucky last, what do we call a cunning old poster who pretends G's out to kill him and the jellyfish for insulting G's hideous genocidal prophet?

Stupid? Mendacious? Shurely shome mishtake? All three?

Islam wants to take over and dominate and they will lie to get there.

Like you.


No no, that's not what I asked you, old chap. I think you misread the question again.

Allow me to really simplify it for you. Do you think it's a porkie to claim someone said something they didn't?

Please get back if you need me to make it even clearer. I'll do my best.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 30th, 2018 at 9:24am

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 11:17pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 8:05pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 7:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
So what does one call a strategy where you interrogate a member for months in a thread to get him to confess, and when he holds firm, pretending he confessed anyway?

What does one call the old Mindless Collective ruse? I'm curious.

Truthful hyperbole?

Alternative facts?

In the words of your prophet, please explain?


Who gives a farck???


Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.


I think you misread my question, old boy. I'll attempt to rephrase it for you. What do we call the old Mindless Collective ruse? This is where you trick someone into repeating your words, then you pretend they said it first.

Likewise, what do we call a spineless jellyfish who feigns horror that G supports the destruction of the Jewish race - as modelled by his sinister prophet when he executed what G calls a treacherous mindless collective of them?

And lucky last, what do we call a cunning old poster who pretends G's out to kill him and the jellyfish for insulting G's hideous genocidal prophet?

Stupid? Mendacious? Shurely shome mishtake? All three?

Islam wants to take over and dominate and they will lie to get there.

Like you.


No no, that's not what I asked you, old chap. I think you misread the question again.

Allow me to really simplify it for you. Do you think it's a porkie to claim someone said something they didn't?

Please get back if you need me to make it even clearer. I'll do my best.

You are making up crap, PB. No surprise.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2018 at 11:38am

Frank wrote on Dec 30th, 2018 at 9:24am:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 11:17pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 8:05pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 7:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
So what does one call a strategy where you interrogate a member for months in a thread to get him to confess, and when he holds firm, pretending he confessed anyway?

What does one call the old Mindless Collective ruse? I'm curious.

Truthful hyperbole?

Alternative facts?

In the words of your prophet, please explain?


Who gives a farck???


Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.


I think you misread my question, old boy. I'll attempt to rephrase it for you. What do we call the old Mindless Collective ruse? This is where you trick someone into repeating your words, then you pretend they said it first.

Likewise, what do we call a spineless jellyfish who feigns horror that G supports the destruction of the Jewish race - as modelled by his sinister prophet when he executed what G calls a treacherous mindless collective of them?

And lucky last, what do we call a cunning old poster who pretends G's out to kill him and the jellyfish for insulting G's hideous genocidal prophet?

Stupid? Mendacious? Shurely shome mishtake? All three?

Islam wants to take over and dominate and they will lie to get there.

Like you.


No no, that's not what I asked you, old chap. I think you misread the question again.

Allow me to really simplify it for you. Do you think it's a porkie to claim someone said something they didn't?

Please get back if you need me to make it even clearer. I'll do my best.

You are making up crap, PB. No surprise.


You really don't want to say, now do you?

Why is that?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Dec 30th, 2018 at 2:40pm

Quote:
We might not agree with what they say, Moses, but we'll fight to the death to tell them what they believe, innit.


They tell us what they believe.

Some of them take the evil in the qur'an at its' word, they revel in euphoric joy while committing every depraved human rights atrocity known to man.

Some of them know the depravity of the qur'an has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.

This puts them in a situation where they deliberately lie snivel and sneak, desperately trying to tell us the filth in the qur'an is *misinterpreted*.

So we have two sides both killing each other.

They starve their children, they needlessly put their children in mortal danger, millions of them are fleeing around the globe because some other muslims destroyed their homelands, they are the worlds top listed terrorist organizations.

Yes indeed what they believe has finally bore fruits, what a virulent mordant fruit, islam has yielded for muslims.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Dec 30th, 2018 at 7:32pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 30th, 2018 at 11:38am:

Frank wrote on Dec 30th, 2018 at 9:24am:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 11:17pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 10:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 8:05pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 7:12pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 29th, 2018 at 6:55pm:
So what does one call a strategy where you interrogate a member for months in a thread to get him to confess, and when he holds firm, pretending he confessed anyway?

What does one call the old Mindless Collective ruse? I'm curious.

Truthful hyperbole?

Alternative facts?

In the words of your prophet, please explain?


Who gives a farck???


Criticising and rejecting Islam is not a porky, Paki, it's not apostasy, it's not blasphemy in the West.  You don't have to study it to reject it, you don't have to make any concessions to it. People reject or dismiss dozens of ideologies and beliefs without knowing anything about them. There is nothing special about Muslims or Islam, even if they themselves think otherwise. It's ok to make fun of it or to regard it as the domain of morons, ignoramuses, superstitious and backward demon-possessed fools - OR WHATEVER.  Not special.

But of course we all know that they WILL kill you if criticise and mock them and their prophet and religion. So the likes of you bend over and pretend to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' when you are just cowardly and hypocritical and go along with their efforts to impose their sensibilities on all free-born peoples.


I think you misread my question, old boy. I'll attempt to rephrase it for you. What do we call the old Mindless Collective ruse? This is where you trick someone into repeating your words, then you pretend they said it first.

Likewise, what do we call a spineless jellyfish who feigns horror that G supports the destruction of the Jewish race - as modelled by his sinister prophet when he executed what G calls a treacherous mindless collective of them?

And lucky last, what do we call a cunning old poster who pretends G's out to kill him and the jellyfish for insulting G's hideous genocidal prophet?

Stupid? Mendacious? Shurely shome mishtake? All three?

Islam wants to take over and dominate and they will lie to get there.

Like you.


No no, that's not what I asked you, old chap. I think you misread the question again.

Allow me to really simplify it for you. Do you think it's a porkie to claim someone said something they didn't?

Please get back if you need me to make it even clearer. I'll do my best.

You are making up crap, PB. No surprise.


You really don't want to say, now do you?

Why is that?



You routinely misrepresent people and their views, you distort and lie like the other propagandists of the 'progressive' (totalitarian) Left. 






Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by gandalf on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:11am

Frank wrote on Dec 26th, 2018 at 7:06pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 8:40am:

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2018 at 9:04am:
Can you explain what you consider to be acceptable or legitimate criticism of Islam?


Its not rocket science, criticise the ideology and any individuals who specifically adhere to that ideology - without making blanket slurs that demonize an entire population.

case in point:
- "the belief that genocide is awesome - is repugnant and should be condemned. Furthermore, I condemn any muslim who holds such beliefs." - gets the gandalf tick of approval

- "all muslims support genocide" - is bigoted, racist, not to mention utterly baseless, rubbish.

How would you deal with the Jews in Israel if it all suddenly became Palestine, a single muslim country? (Which is what all you Muslim want).


The most feasible and likely outcome in the long term is to have a multi-ethnic/multi-religious single state. It will neither be a "jewish" nor "muslim" state. How can Israel lay claim to the title "jewish state" if the majority of its people are not jewish? If you count the occupied territories, which really should be considered de-facto Israeli territory, the jewish population is at this moment pretty much the same as the arab population. But demographics are changing rapidly - very soon the jews will be a minority of the greater Palestinian area. Israel should have relinquished its claim on the occupied territories years ago, so it could maintain its demographic supremacy, and rightly claim itself as a "jewish state". But now they are snookering themselves - by stubbornly insisting the WB is part of Israel, which gives them two equally crappy options - 1. it formalises its claim to the WB by granting citizenship to all the population under its control - which would of course quickly make the jews a minority in a so-called "jewish state". Or 2. it embarks on more ethnic cleansing - forcing the arabs en-masse to move to Jordan or some other neighbouring state. And I'm sure that option would go down like a lead balloon in the eyes of the international community.

Long story short, the long term viability of the "jewish state" seems impossible. Israel will surely eventually morph into a multi-ethnic, multi-relgious state where the ugly spectre of occupations, exclusive settlements and daily bloodshed become a distant bad memory.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 4th, 2019 at 9:22am
In such a scenario the Jews would be hated and hounded out as they have been from all other muslim countries.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:54pm

Quote:
We might not agree with what they say, Moses, but we'll fight to the death to tell them what they believe, innit.


They tell us what they believe.

Some of them take the evil in the Bible at it's word, they revel in euphoric joy while committing every depraved human rights atrocity known to man.

Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.

This puts them in a situation where they deliberately lie snivel and sneak, desperately trying to tell us the filth in the Bible is *misinterpreted*.

So we have two sides both killing each other.

They starve their children, they needlessly put their children in mortal danger, millions of them are fleeing around the globe because some Christians destroyed their homelands, they are the worlds top listed terrorist organizations.

Yes indeed what they believe has finally bore fruits, what a virulent mordant fruit, Christianity has yielded for Christians.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:12pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:54pm:

Quote:
We might not agree with what they say, Moses, but we'll fight to the death to tell them what they believe, innit.


They tell us what they believe.

Some of them take the evil in the Bible at it's word, they revel in euphoric joy while committing every depraved human rights atrocity known to man.

Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.

This puts them in a situation where they deliberately lie snivel and sneak, desperately trying to tell us the filth in the Bible is *misinterpreted*.

So we have two sides both killing each other.

They starve their children, they needlessly put their children in mortal danger, millions of them are fleeing around the globe because some Christians destroyed their homelands, they are the worlds top listed terrorist organizations.

Yes indeed what they believe has finally bore fruits, what a virulent mordant fruit, Christianity has yielded for Christians.

The mindless equivocation doesnt work, dick.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:38pm

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 1:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 12:54pm:

Quote:
We might not agree with what they say, Moses, but we'll fight to the death to tell them what they believe, innit.


They tell us what they believe.

Some of them take the evil in the Bible at it's word, they revel in euphoric joy while committing every depraved human rights atrocity known to man.

Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.

This puts them in a situation where they deliberately lie snivel and sneak, desperately trying to tell us the filth in the Bible is *misinterpreted*.

So we have two sides both killing each other.

They starve their children, they needlessly put their children in mortal danger, millions of them are fleeing around the globe because some Christians destroyed their homelands, they are the worlds top listed terrorist organizations.

Yes indeed what they believe has finally bore fruits, what a virulent mordant fruit, Christianity has yielded for Christians.

The mindless equivocation doesnt work, dick.


Got a reaction from you, Soren. Tsk, tsk.  You really need to work on your "presence" more.   ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:30pm
Lying scum wrote Reply #155 - Today at 12:54pm

Quote:
They tell us what they believe.

Some of them take the evil in the Bible at it's word, they revel in euphoric joy while committing every depraved human rights atrocity known to man.

Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.

This puts them in a situation where they deliberately lie snivel and sneak, desperately trying to tell us the filth in the Bible is *misinterpreted*.

So we have two sides both killing each other.

They starve their children, they needlessly put their children in mortal danger, millions of them are fleeing around the globe because some Christians destroyed their homelands, they are the worlds top listed terrorist organizations.

Yes indeed what they believe has finally bore fruits, what a virulent mordant fruit, Christianity has yielded for Christians.


Hey there lying scum still dependent on straight out lies to keep your place on a debate site?

Hers a little jig to cheer you up:

I see a lying scum is posting

I see his lies are everywhere

just another idiot from the leftwing

cos protecting muslim terrorists is his thing

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:37pm

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:30pm:
Lying scum wrote Reply #155 - Today at 12:54pm

Quote:
They tell us what they believe.

Some of them take the evil in the Bible at it's word, they revel in euphoric joy while committing every depraved human rights atrocity known to man.

Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.

This puts them in a situation where they deliberately lie snivel and sneak, desperately trying to tell us the filth in the Bible is *misinterpreted*.

So we have two sides both killing each other.

They starve their children, they needlessly put their children in mortal danger, millions of them are fleeing around the globe because some Christians destroyed their homelands, they are the worlds top listed terrorist organizations.

Yes indeed what they believe has finally bore fruits, what a virulent mordant fruit, Christianity has yielded for Christians.


Hey there lying scum still dependent on straight out lies to keep your place on a debate site?


I have "lied", how, Moses?

Here, here is a spot for you to post your evidence that i have, "knowingly told an untruth," right here, about what I said in that post:


Quote:










Will you man up and prove I have, "knowingly told an untruth," or will you, like all Islamophobes, slink away, back under your rock rather than face the truth about what I have posted?  Mmmm?

Over to you, Islamophobe.  Post your evidence or be damned in the eyes of all other posters.  Tsk, tsk.    ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:37pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:30pm:
Lying scum wrote Reply #155 - Today at 12:54pm
[quote]
They tell us what they believe.

Some of them take the evil in the Bible at it's word, they revel in euphoric joy while committing every depraved human rights atrocity known to man.

Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.

This puts them in a situation where they deliberately lie snivel and sneak, desperately trying to tell us the filth in the Bible is *misinterpreted*.

So we have two sides both killing each other.

They starve their children, they needlessly put their children in mortal danger, millions of them are fleeing around the globe because some Christians destroyed their homelands, they are the worlds top listed terrorist organizations.

Yes indeed what they believe has finally bore fruits, what a virulent mordant fruit, Christianity has yielded for Christians.


Hey there lying scum still dependent on straight out lies to keep your place on a debate site?


I have "lied", how, Moses?

Here, here is a spot for you to post your evidence that i have, "knowingly told an untruth," right here, about what I said in that post:

[quote]Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.
[/quote]

Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:37pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:30pm:
Lying scum wrote Reply #155 - Today at 12:54pm
[quote]
They tell us what they believe.

Some of them take the evil in the Bible at it's word, they revel in euphoric joy while committing every depraved human rights atrocity known to man.

Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.

This puts them in a situation where they deliberately lie snivel and sneak, desperately trying to tell us the filth in the Bible is *misinterpreted*.

So we have two sides both killing each other.

They starve their children, they needlessly put their children in mortal danger, millions of them are fleeing around the globe because some Christians destroyed their homelands, they are the worlds top listed terrorist organizations.

Yes indeed what they believe has finally bore fruits, what a virulent mordant fruit, Christianity has yielded for Christians.


Hey there lying scum still dependent on straight out lies to keep your place on a debate site?


I have "lied", how, Moses?

Here, here is a spot for you to post your evidence that i have, "knowingly told an untruth," right here, about what I said in that post:

[quote]Some of them know the depravity of the Bible has no place in a modern civilization, however they are in a bind as they are forbidden to question or purge the evil in their doctrine.


Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.
[/quote]

Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Jan 4th, 2019 at 7:01pm
Where is it set down in stone that christians are forbidden to question or purge the evil in doctrine?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4th, 2019 at 7:54pm

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 7:01pm:
Where is it set down in stone that christians are forbidden to question or purge the evil in doctrine?


In the teachings of Christianity (the religion), Moses.    ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:07pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 7:54pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 7:01pm:
Where is it set down in stone that christians are forbidden to question or purge the evil in doctrine?


In the teachings of Christianity (the religion), Moses.    ::)

Where?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?



Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:56pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)

Verbal criticism by Christians is now the same ballpark as Islamic jihadi murder, Bwian the Spineless, Stupid Apologist. You are a fmacking disgrace, a shameless fmacking disgrace.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:10pm

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)

Verbal criticism by Christians is now the same ballpark as Islamic jihadi murder, Bwian the Spineless, Stupid Apologist. You are a fmacking disgrace, a shameless fmacking disgrace.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should just overlook the millions of Christians killed by other Christians throughout history, right, Soren?   Tsk, tsk, such a shame that history trips you up all the time, isn't it?  How inconvenient...   ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:07pm
forkey tongue lied.

Nowhere in the Christian doctrine as espoused by Christ is questioning and purging of evil forbidden.

In fact the exact opposit is the case:

Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

1John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

So there it is, try every spirit make sure you're following the righteous one.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:19pm

moses wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:07pm:
forkey tongue lied.

Nowhere in the Christian doctrine as espoused by Christ is questioning and purging of evil forbidden.

In fact the exact opposit is the case:

Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

1John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

So there it is, try every spirit make sure you're following the righteous one.


He also said, John 8:7. "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”   You are not without sin, Moses, yet you are always willing to cast stones at Muslims and people who criticise your views.  Tsk, tsk, such hypocrisy from a follower of Christ.  Really?   ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:25pm
It's funny how you and karnal always try to hide your deceit behind one - liners forkey tongue.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:12pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:19pm:

moses wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:07pm:
forkey tongue lied.

Nowhere in the Christian doctrine as espoused by Christ is questioning and purging of evil forbidden.

In fact the exact opposit is the case:

Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

1John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

So there it is, try every spirit make sure you're following the righteous one.


He also said, John 8:7. "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”   You are not without sin, Moses, yet you are always willing to cast stones at Muslims and people who criticise your views.  Tsk, tsk, such hypocrisy from a follower of Christ.  Really?   ::) ::)


He is not throwing stones Brian. Or are you suggesting Jesus meant we cannot even criticise what we see as evil? Are you trying to equate snivelling cowardice with Christian doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:21pm

moses wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:25pm:
It's funny how you and karnal always try to hide your deceit behind one - liners forkey tongue.


John 8:7. "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at," me.  Tsk, tsk, such hypocrisy.   ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:24pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 5:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:19pm:

moses wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 4:07pm:
forkey tongue lied.

Nowhere in the Christian doctrine as espoused by Christ is questioning and purging of evil forbidden.

In fact the exact opposit is the case:

Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

1John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

So there it is, try every spirit make sure you're following the righteous one.


He also said, John 8:7. "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”   You are not without sin, Moses, yet you are always willing to cast stones at Muslims and people who criticise your views.  Tsk, tsk, such hypocrisy from a follower of Christ.  Really?   ::) ::)


He is not throwing stones Brian. Or are you suggesting Jesus meant we cannot even criticise what we see as evil? Are you trying to equate snivelling cowardice with Christian doctrine?




Answer my questions first, FD.  ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:18pm
Wunaway Bwian.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:44pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:18pm:
Wunaway Bwian.




Answer my questions first, FD.  ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:57pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:10pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)

Verbal criticism by Christians is now the same ballpark as Islamic jihadi murder, Bwian the Spineless, Stupid Apologist. You are a fmacking disgrace, a shameless fmacking disgrace.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should just overlook the millions of Christians killed by other Christians throughout history, right, Soren?   Tsk, tsk, such a shame that history trips you up all the time, isn't it?  How inconvenient...   ::) ::)

We live NOW, Bwian, not in past history. You must make moral choices NOW, spineless apologist git, not defer to what you think happened in other peoples' lifetimes and so cover your moral and actual cowardice and spinlessness with endless reflexive 'yeah-buts'.

You are a fmacking, squishy disgrace. Your wife did the honourable thing when she gave you the brusheroo. What she saw in you to begin with is the mystery and her eternal regret.





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm

Frank wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:10pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)

Verbal criticism by Christians is now the same ballpark as Islamic jihadi murder, Bwian the Spineless, Stupid Apologist. You are a fmacking disgrace, a shameless fmacking disgrace.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should just overlook the millions of Christians killed by other Christians throughout history, right, Soren?   Tsk, tsk, such a shame that history trips you up all the time, isn't it?  How inconvenient...   ::) ::)

We live NOW, Bwian, not in past history. You must make moral choices NOW,


And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.   In Russia, the events of WWII and WWI still loom in the public consciousness.  In Denmark?  Oh, I suppose they still hark back to the good ol' days when they were Vikings, rapin' and a pillagin' the coasts of Europe.  White Australia has a relatively short history.  Black Australia has one that stretches back 70 thousand years.  You?  You have a history the length of a blink of an eye it seems.  If it happened to someone else you're not interested.  To intelligent people, what happened 50, 100, 200, 300 years ago are still important.  Our modern world was shaped in the aftermath of WWI and then reshaped again, after WWII but it is all unimportant to you, right?  Soren you're an ignorant fool who refuses to learn.


Quote:
spineless apologist git, not defer to what you think happened in other peoples' lifetimes and so cover your moral and actual cowardice and spinlessness with endless reflexive 'yeah-buts'.

You are a fmacking, squishy disgrace. Your wife did the honourable thing when she gave you the brusheroo. What she saw in you to begin with is the mystery and her eternal regret.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  More ad hominem argument, hey, Soren?   I always know when you've lost the debate, you resort to insults and personal attacks.  Such a silly and pointless show of fireworks.  Tsk, tsk, run along, back to your little kiddies' playground where such tactics are tolerated.   You have never presented a single, coherent argument, Soren, ever.   ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:51am

Quote:
And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.


What motivates Australian Muslims to fly halfway round the world to die for a Caliphate rather than see democracy take hold in Iraq?

Why are you so afraid to admit the role that Islam plays in their decisions?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 6th, 2019 at 8:52am

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:51am:

Quote:
And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.


What motivates Australian Muslims to fly halfway round the world to die for a Caliphate rather than see democracy take hold in Iraq?

Why are you so afraid to admit the role that Islam plays in their decisions?




Answer my questions first, FD.  ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:50am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 8:52am:

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:51am:

Quote:
And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.


What motivates Australian Muslims to fly halfway round the world to die for a Caliphate rather than see democracy take hold in Iraq?

Why are you so afraid to admit the role that Islam plays in their decisions?




Answer my questions first, FD.  ::) ::)


Is this just some kind of compulsion to lie in defense of Islam?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 6th, 2019 at 12:48pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 9:50am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 8:52am:

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:51am:

Quote:
And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.


What motivates Australian Muslims to fly halfway round the world to die for a Caliphate rather than see democracy take hold in Iraq?

Why are you so afraid to admit the role that Islam plays in their decisions?




Answer my questions first, FD.  ::) ::)


Is this just some kind of compulsion to lie in defense of Islam?




Answer my questions first, FD.  ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:02pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:10pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)

Verbal criticism by Christians is now the same ballpark as Islamic jihadi murder, Bwian the Spineless, Stupid Apologist. You are a fmacking disgrace, a shameless fmacking disgrace.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should just overlook the millions of Christians killed by other Christians throughout history, right, Soren?   Tsk, tsk, such a shame that history trips you up all the time, isn't it?  How inconvenient...   ::) ::)

We live NOW, Bwian, not in past history. You must make moral choices NOW,


And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.   In Russia, the events of WWII and WWI still loom in the public consciousness.  In Denmark?  Oh, I suppose they still hark back to the good ol' days when they were Vikings, rapin' and a pillagin' the coasts of Europe.  White Australia has a relatively short history.  Black Australia has one that stretches back 70 thousand years.  You?  You have a history the length of a blink of an eye it seems.  If it happened to someone else you're not interested.  To intelligent people, what happened 50, 100, 200, 300 years ago are still important.  Our modern world was shaped in the aftermath of WWI and then reshaped again, after WWII but it is all unimportant to you, right?  Soren you're an ignorant fool who refuses to learn.

[quote]
spineless apologist git, not defer to what you think happened in other peoples' lifetimes and so cover your moral and actual cowardice and spinlessness with endless reflexive 'yeah-buts'.

You are a fmacking, squishy disgrace. Your wife did the honourable thing when she gave you the brusheroo. What she saw in you to begin with is the mystery and her eternal regret.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  More ad hominem argument, hey, Soren?   I always know when you've lost the debate, you resort to insults and personal attacks.  Such a silly and pointless show of fireworks.  Tsk, tsk, run along, back to your little kiddies' playground where such tactics are tolerated.   You have never presented a single, coherent argument, Soren, ever.   ::) ::)
[/quote]



So everyone with the same history thinks and acts the same way  Bwian?  We are all machines with no conscience, no freedom, nothing, just determinism.

You are too thick and blinkered by your ideology, Bwian.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 6th, 2019 at 8:48pm

Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:10pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)

Verbal criticism by Christians is now the same ballpark as Islamic jihadi murder, Bwian the Spineless, Stupid Apologist. You are a fmacking disgrace, a shameless fmacking disgrace.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should just overlook the millions of Christians killed by other Christians throughout history, right, Soren?   Tsk, tsk, such a shame that history trips you up all the time, isn't it?  How inconvenient...   ::) ::)

We live NOW, Bwian, not in past history. You must make moral choices NOW,


And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.   In Russia, the events of WWII and WWI still loom in the public consciousness.  In Denmark?  Oh, I suppose they still hark back to the good ol' days when they were Vikings, rapin' and a pillagin' the coasts of Europe.  White Australia has a relatively short history.  Black Australia has one that stretches back 70 thousand years.  You?  You have a history the length of a blink of an eye it seems.  If it happened to someone else you're not interested.  To intelligent people, what happened 50, 100, 200, 300 years ago are still important.  Our modern world was shaped in the aftermath of WWI and then reshaped again, after WWII but it is all unimportant to you, right?  Soren you're an ignorant fool who refuses to learn.

[quote]
spineless apologist git, not defer to what you think happened in other peoples' lifetimes and so cover your moral and actual cowardice and spinlessness with endless reflexive 'yeah-buts'.

You are a fmacking, squishy disgrace. Your wife did the honourable thing when she gave you the brusheroo. What she saw in you to begin with is the mystery and her eternal regret.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  More ad hominem argument, hey, Soren?   I always know when you've lost the debate, you resort to insults and personal attacks.  Such a silly and pointless show of fireworks.  Tsk, tsk, run along, back to your little kiddies' playground where such tactics are tolerated.   You have never presented a single, coherent argument, Soren, ever.   ::) ::)


So everyone with the same history thinks and acts the same way  Bwian?  We are all machines with no conscience, no freedom, nothing, just determinism.

You are too thick and blinkered by your ideology, Bwian.
[/quote]

I said, "shapes", not "determines", Soren.  Appears English is your second language.  Tsk, tsk, not to worry, I'm sure you can do a course for that.   ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 6th, 2019 at 8:57pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 8:48pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:10pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)

Verbal criticism by Christians is now the same ballpark as Islamic jihadi murder, Bwian the Spineless, Stupid Apologist. You are a fmacking disgrace, a shameless fmacking disgrace.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should just overlook the millions of Christians killed by other Christians throughout history, right, Soren?   Tsk, tsk, such a shame that history trips you up all the time, isn't it?  How inconvenient...   ::) ::)

We live NOW, Bwian, not in past history. You must make moral choices NOW,


And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.   In Russia, the events of WWII and WWI still loom in the public consciousness.  In Denmark?  Oh, I suppose they still hark back to the good ol' days when they were Vikings, rapin' and a pillagin' the coasts of Europe.  White Australia has a relatively short history.  Black Australia has one that stretches back 70 thousand years.  You?  You have a history the length of a blink of an eye it seems.  If it happened to someone else you're not interested.  To intelligent people, what happened 50, 100, 200, 300 years ago are still important.  Our modern world was shaped in the aftermath of WWI and then reshaped again, after WWII but it is all unimportant to you, right?  Soren you're an ignorant fool who refuses to learn.

[quote]
spineless apologist git, not defer to what you think happened in other peoples' lifetimes and so cover your moral and actual cowardice and spinlessness with endless reflexive 'yeah-buts'.

You are a fmacking, squishy disgrace. Your wife did the honourable thing when she gave you the brusheroo. What she saw in you to begin with is the mystery and her eternal regret.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  More ad hominem argument, hey, Soren?   I always know when you've lost the debate, you resort to insults and personal attacks.  Such a silly and pointless show of fireworks.  Tsk, tsk, run along, back to your little kiddies' playground where such tactics are tolerated.   You have never presented a single, coherent argument, Soren, ever.   ::) ::)


So everyone with the same history thinks and acts the same way  Bwian?  We are all machines with no conscience, no freedom, nothing, just determinism.

You are too thick and blinkered by your ideology, Bwian.


I said, "shapes", not "determines", Soren.  Appears English is your second language.  Tsk, tsk, not to worry, I'm sure you can do a course for that.   ::)
[/quote]
Personal and social histories 'shape' our moral choices, you say. What else plays a role, besides that particular 'shaping'  and how big is that role?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:24am

Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 8:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 8:48pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 7:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 8:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 10:10pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:31pm:

moses wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Failure on your part to prove that Christians are forbidden to question or purge evil give me the right to refer to you as lying scum.


Forgotten the past history of Christianity, Moses?

You have the Iconoclasm, the blasphemy crusades, the Thirty Years War, so and so on?  How do you explain those events, hey?   Christians, punishing their fellow Christians for their blasphemy against Christ and the beliefs of Christianity (the religion).   Oh, dearie, dearie, me, history trips you up again, hey?   ::)

Then, today, you have various extremist organisations such as Opus Dei which attack their fellow Christians for voicing their questioning of Christian belief.  What about the attacks on Christians who supported same-sex marriage?  All supposedly against Christian beliefs, right?  Tsk, tsk.  Run along, Moses, you're a loser.   ::) ::)

So Christians who question Christianity today are threatened with death or are killed, like Muslim apostates?

Is that what you are proposing, Bwian?


Some are, some aren't, just as most Muslims are ignored for their apostasy, Soren, so are most Christians today.   In the past, Christianity has just as bloody history as Islam though.  Never forget the fate of Roberto Calvi...


Quote:
Which Christians are attacked for questioning Christianity or supporting same-sex marriage. What 'attacks' are you referencing, despicable and dishonest, spineless dickheaddle? Back up your slanders, cowardly cockwomble.


Occasional physical attacks, Soren, more often than not, verbal ones.  Written ones in the many pages of "debate" in these fora.  Tsk, tsk, tripped up by reality, yet again, hey, Soren?   ::)

Verbal criticism by Christians is now the same ballpark as Islamic jihadi murder, Bwian the Spineless, Stupid Apologist. You are a fmacking disgrace, a shameless fmacking disgrace.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  I suppose we should just overlook the millions of Christians killed by other Christians throughout history, right, Soren?   Tsk, tsk, such a shame that history trips you up all the time, isn't it?  How inconvenient...   ::) ::)

We live NOW, Bwian, not in past history. You must make moral choices NOW,


And how do we make those moral choices, Soren?  What shapes our decisions?  Our personal and social histories.   In the Balkans, the Serbs talk as if their efforts to fight back the Ottoman Turks occurred yesterday, not 5-700 years ago.   In Russia, the events of WWII and WWI still loom in the public consciousness.  In Denmark?  Oh, I suppose they still hark back to the good ol' days when they were Vikings, rapin' and a pillagin' the coasts of Europe.  White Australia has a relatively short history.  Black Australia has one that stretches back 70 thousand years.  You?  You have a history the length of a blink of an eye it seems.  If it happened to someone else you're not interested.  To intelligent people, what happened 50, 100, 200, 300 years ago are still important.  Our modern world was shaped in the aftermath of WWI and then reshaped again, after WWII but it is all unimportant to you, right?  Soren you're an ignorant fool who refuses to learn.

[quote]
spineless apologist git, not defer to what you think happened in other peoples' lifetimes and so cover your moral and actual cowardice and spinlessness with endless reflexive 'yeah-buts'.

You are a fmacking, squishy disgrace. Your wife did the honourable thing when she gave you the brusheroo. What she saw in you to begin with is the mystery and her eternal regret.


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  More ad hominem argument, hey, Soren?   I always know when you've lost the debate, you resort to insults and personal attacks.  Such a silly and pointless show of fireworks.  Tsk, tsk, run along, back to your little kiddies' playground where such tactics are tolerated.   You have never presented a single, coherent argument, Soren, ever.   ::) ::)


So everyone with the same history thinks and acts the same way  Bwian?  We are all machines with no conscience, no freedom, nothing, just determinism.

You are too thick and blinkered by your ideology, Bwian.


I said, "shapes", not "determines", Soren.  Appears English is your second language.  Tsk, tsk, not to worry, I'm sure you can do a course for that.   ::)

Personal and social histories 'shape' our moral choices, you say. What else plays a role, besides that particular 'shaping'  and how big is that role? [/quote]

Not sure about you, Soren, but to me, what occurs in my past is my "social history".   Of course, we all know you believe that all Muslims are part of the Borg and unable to think for themselves and make decisions but hey, we all know you're a fool.   ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:26am

Personal and social histories 'shape' our moral choices, you say. What else plays a role, besides that particular 'shaping'  and how big is that role?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:45pm

Quote:
Not sure about you, Soren, but to me, what occurs in my past is my "social history".   Of course, we all know you believe that all Muslims are part of the Borg and unable to think for themselves and make decisions but hey, we all know you're a fool.


The only one here who actually invokes the mindless collective argument is Gandalf. Islam motivates him to do so. Not sure what motivates you to shut your eyes to it.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:54pm

freediver wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:45pm:

Quote:
Not sure about you, Soren, but to me, what occurs in my past is my "social history".   Of course, we all know you believe that all Muslims are part of the Borg and unable to think for themselves and make decisions but hey, we all know you're a fool.


The only one here who actually invokes the mindless collective argument is Gandalf. Islam motivates him to do so. Not sure what motivates you to shut your eyes to it.


Appears to me that the only one who actually invokes the "mindless collective argument," is you, FD.  So, when are you going to answer my questions or are you too cowardly to contemplate that, hey?    ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Jan 9th, 2019 at 10:16pm

Frank wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:26am:
Personal and social histories 'shape' our moral choices, you say. What else plays a role, besides that particular 'shaping'  and how big is that role?


Tintedness.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Jan 9th, 2019 at 10:18pm

freediver wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:45pm:

Quote:
Not sure about you, Soren, but to me, what occurs in my past is my "social history".   Of course, we all know you believe that all Muslims are part of the Borg and unable to think for themselves and make decisions but hey, we all know you're a fool.


The only one here who actually invokes the mindless collective argument is Gandalf. Islam motivates him to do so. Not sure what motivates you to shut your eyes to it.


And yet, the only one here who actually uses the term Mindless Collective is the one who made it up.

Now who was that, FD? We're still searching for answers.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Jan 9th, 2019 at 10:22pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 9:54pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:45pm:

Quote:
Not sure about you, Soren, but to me, what occurs in my past is my "social history".   Of course, we all know you believe that all Muslims are part of the Borg and unable to think for themselves and make decisions but hey, we all know you're a fool.


The only one here who actually invokes the mindless collective argument is Gandalf. Islam motivates him to do so. Not sure what motivates you to shut your eyes to it.


Appears to me that the only one who actually invokes the "mindless collective argument," is you, FD.  So, when are you going to answer my questions or are you too cowardly to contemplate that, hey?    ::)


FD? Good heavens. He thought it up?

And he's evading all your questions too?

That can't be right, Brian. FD keeps blaming G for invoking the Mindless Collective and spinelessly evading. Are you saying that's what FD is doing?

Shurely shome mishtake.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Apr 16th, 2019 at 6:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 16th, 2019 at 6:26pm:
Clearly there are more diplomatic ways of making the case for genocide - without so obviously showing that you are making the case for genocide.


;D

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Apr 17th, 2019 at 10:20am
It's all good. FD's just having a giggle.

He was tricking G all along, isn't it.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Apr 18th, 2019 at 3:09pm
then again, there's always the option of making up a phrase like "mindless collective of treacherous jews" and pretending some else said it - someone that you are trying to pin as a genocide supporter in the world's most desparate straw cluching exercise  ;)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on Apr 18th, 2019 at 6:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 18th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
then again, there's always the option of making up a phrase like "mindless collective of treacherous jews" and pretending some else said it - someone that you are trying to pin as a genocide supporter in the world's most desparate straw cluching exercise  ;)


What happened to executing gays who do it Mardi Gras-style?

Did FD give that one up when he started going for the Saudis?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Apr 19th, 2019 at 9:21am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 18th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
then again, there's always the option of making up a phrase like "mindless collective of treacherous jews" and pretending some else said it - someone that you are trying to pin as a genocide supporter in the world's most desparate straw cluching exercise  ;)


Am I unfairly characterising you as undiplomatic on your promotion of genocide?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 7th, 2019 at 9:41pm
Bump for Gandalf. Apparently this makes Muslims a mindless collective.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 7th, 2019 at 9:44pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 18th, 2019 at 6:37pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 18th, 2019 at 3:09pm:
then again, there's always the option of making up a phrase like "mindless collective of treacherous jews" and pretending some else said it - someone that you are trying to pin as a genocide supporter in the world's most desparate straw cluching exercise  ;)


What happened to executing gays who do it Mardi Gras-style?

Did FD give that one up when he started going for the Saudis?


Bump for FD. What sound does a jellyfish make?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 8th, 2019 at 11:19am
bump for FD - apparently saying all muslims support genocide is different to saying muslims are a mindless collective.

Who knew?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 8th, 2019 at 7:22pm
If I said all Nazis support genocide, would that imply Nazis are also a mindless collective?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 8th, 2019 at 7:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 8th, 2019 at 11:19am:
bump for FD - apparently saying all muslims support genocide is different to saying muslims are a mindless collective.

Who knew?

You must be mindless to follow Mohammed, a priapic warlord of dubious moral quality.  It IS mindless to follow such a man.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 9th, 2019 at 9:57am

freediver wrote on May 8th, 2019 at 7:22pm:
If I said all Nazis support genocide, would that imply Nazis are also a mindless collective?


Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief - given what Nazis are and what they believe. You are not a nazi if you don't hate non-whites and support violence to keep them excluded from white culture/society. In this modern day world of multiculturalism in the west, it is reasonable to assume this would necessitate genocide. This is the defining characteristic of being a nazi. But this is not arrived at "mindlessly" or "collectively" - genocide would be assessed as a necessary strategy by the nazi - logically and rationally.

Genocide for muslims on the other hand, is not a rational belief to arrive at given the core tenets (ie the 5 pillars). You arrive at that conclusion on the simplistic logic that Muhammad did it, therefore all muslims must blindly accept that behaviour as good and proper. It singularly denies the muslim any agency or individual thought processes of his/her own to assess things like 'how does supporting genocide relate to the 5 pillars' (it doesn't), 'even if Muhammad was the greatest example, does that necessarily require blindly supporting everything he did? 'why shouldn't the context of 7th century arabia be factored in'? 'Is what Muhammad allegedly did genocide anyway (clearly no) - 'did he even do it in the first place' (even if its a minority who don't believe he did it, there undeniably are some who don't, therefore this point alone destroys your claim).

These most basic cognitive processes you singularly deny muslims, while ascribing to muslims the most insendiary smear you could possibly think of in our current culture - that of a genocide supporter. Clearly done with the express intention to inflame and provoke the discussion to its worst, base form.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 9th, 2019 at 12:28pm

Quote:
Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief


Are you suggesting my explanation in the OP is not a rational cognitive process?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 9th, 2019 at 2:49pm

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 12:28pm:

Quote:
Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief


Are you suggesting my explanation in the OP is not a rational cognitive process?


Absolutely FD. You insist that 20% of the world's population unquestioningly support genocide - and worse, your insistence is not even based on any Islamic view on genocide, nor on any knowledge on your part on how muslims actually view genocide. Merely on the false logic that because you (but no one else) think Muhammad committed genocide, and because muslims must consider Muhammad as the best of men, ipso facto, muslims must support genocide. Where does one even begin at dismantling such flaw in logic? If nothing else, you are ignoring the muslims who don't accept that the massacre even happened, in which case it is clearly not every single muslim on earth, man woman and child as you insist.

As I keep saying, you singularly deny muslims any agency to think for themselves (and then laughably contradict yourself by acknowledging muslims who are morally flexible). You laughably insist 1.5 billion men women and children from all cultures, from all corners of the globe are in lock-step on this one belief - which also just happens to be the most inflamatory smear you could possibly think of (whats worse than supporting genocide?), and which is obviously particularly sensitive in the context of our own western cultural history. That is applying group think in the most blatant and bigoted way - with the express aim of defaming and smearing an entire religious group of people.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 9th, 2019 at 6:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 2:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 12:28pm:

Quote:
Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief


Are you suggesting my explanation in the OP is not a rational cognitive process?


Absolutely FD. You insist that 20% of the world's population unquestioningly support genocide - and worse, your insistence is not even based on any Islamic view on genocide, nor on any knowledge on your part on how muslims actually view genocide. Merely on the false logic that because you (but no one else) think Muhammad committed genocide, and because muslims must consider Muhammad as the best of men, ipso facto, muslims must support genocide. Where does one even begin at dismantling such flaw in logic? If nothing else, you are ignoring the muslims who don't accept that the massacre even happened, in which case it is clearly not every single muslim on earth, man woman and child as you insist.

As I keep saying, you singularly deny muslims any agency to think for themselves (and then laughably contradict yourself by acknowledging muslims who are morally flexible). You laughably insist 1.5 billion men women and children from all cultures, from all corners of the globe are in lock-step on this one belief - which also just happens to be the most inflamatory smear you could possibly think of (whats worse than supporting genocide?), and which is obviously particularly sensitive in the context of our own western cultural history. That is applying group think in the most blatant and bigoted way - with the express aim of defaming and smearing an entire religious group of people.


We've been over this. Plenty of other people also think Muhammad committed genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 9th, 2019 at 9:51pm

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 2:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 12:28pm:

Quote:
Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief


Are you suggesting my explanation in the OP is not a rational cognitive process?


Absolutely FD. You insist that 20% of the world's population unquestioningly support genocide - and worse, your insistence is not even based on any Islamic view on genocide, nor on any knowledge on your part on how muslims actually view genocide. Merely on the false logic that because you (but no one else) think Muhammad committed genocide, and because muslims must consider Muhammad as the best of men, ipso facto, muslims must support genocide. Where does one even begin at dismantling such flaw in logic? If nothing else, you are ignoring the muslims who don't accept that the massacre even happened, in which case it is clearly not every single muslim on earth, man woman and child as you insist.

As I keep saying, you singularly deny muslims any agency to think for themselves (and then laughably contradict yourself by acknowledging muslims who are morally flexible). You laughably insist 1.5 billion men women and children from all cultures, from all corners of the globe are in lock-step on this one belief - which also just happens to be the most inflamatory smear you could possibly think of (whats worse than supporting genocide?), and which is obviously particularly sensitive in the context of our own western cultural history. That is applying group think in the most blatant and bigoted way - with the express aim of defaming and smearing an entire religious group of people.


We've been over this. Plenty of other people also think Muhammad committed genocide.


Who?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 10th, 2019 at 3:08pm

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 2:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 12:28pm:

Quote:
Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief


Are you suggesting my explanation in the OP is not a rational cognitive process?


Absolutely FD. You insist that 20% of the world's population unquestioningly support genocide - and worse, your insistence is not even based on any Islamic view on genocide, nor on any knowledge on your part on how muslims actually view genocide. Merely on the false logic that because you (but no one else) think Muhammad committed genocide, and because muslims must consider Muhammad as the best of men, ipso facto, muslims must support genocide. Where does one even begin at dismantling such flaw in logic? If nothing else, you are ignoring the muslims who don't accept that the massacre even happened, in which case it is clearly not every single muslim on earth, man woman and child as you insist.

As I keep saying, you singularly deny muslims any agency to think for themselves (and then laughably contradict yourself by acknowledging muslims who are morally flexible). You laughably insist 1.5 billion men women and children from all cultures, from all corners of the globe are in lock-step on this one belief - which also just happens to be the most inflamatory smear you could possibly think of (whats worse than supporting genocide?), and which is obviously particularly sensitive in the context of our own western cultural history. That is applying group think in the most blatant and bigoted way - with the express aim of defaming and smearing an entire religious group of people.


We've been over this. Plenty of other people also think Muhammad committed genocide.


Plenty of muslims don't. Some even don't believe it happened at all.

But you singularly deny every one of them any agency to think for themselves, and arrogantly apply a blanket "FD-think" on all of us. *YOU* insist its genocide, therefore muslims must accept it as such, and therefore just like that, you get 20% of the world's population all in perfect lock step, of one mind (dare I say a 'mindless collective'??) in supporting genocide. No questions, no ifs or buts. Apparently without even any of the 'moral flexibility' or hypocricy you just finished explaining is a feature of muslims.

There are two words starting with 'r' that describe this - one is 'ridiculous'.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on May 10th, 2019 at 3:22pm
qur'an 8.67: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made a great slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Seems allah / muhammad was partial to a bit of blood flowing around.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 10th, 2019 at 6:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 3:08pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 2:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 12:28pm:

Quote:
Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief


Are you suggesting my explanation in the OP is not a rational cognitive process?


Absolutely FD. You insist that 20% of the world's population unquestioningly support genocide - and worse, your insistence is not even based on any Islamic view on genocide, nor on any knowledge on your part on how muslims actually view genocide. Merely on the false logic that because you (but no one else) think Muhammad committed genocide, and because muslims must consider Muhammad as the best of men, ipso facto, muslims must support genocide. Where does one even begin at dismantling such flaw in logic? If nothing else, you are ignoring the muslims who don't accept that the massacre even happened, in which case it is clearly not every single muslim on earth, man woman and child as you insist.

As I keep saying, you singularly deny muslims any agency to think for themselves (and then laughably contradict yourself by acknowledging muslims who are morally flexible). You laughably insist 1.5 billion men women and children from all cultures, from all corners of the globe are in lock-step on this one belief - which also just happens to be the most inflamatory smear you could possibly think of (whats worse than supporting genocide?), and which is obviously particularly sensitive in the context of our own western cultural history. That is applying group think in the most blatant and bigoted way - with the express aim of defaming and smearing an entire religious group of people.


We've been over this. Plenty of other people also think Muhammad committed genocide.


Plenty of muslims don't. Some even don't believe it happened at all.

But you singularly deny every one of them any agency to think for themselves, and arrogantly apply a blanket "FD-think" on all of us. *YOU* insist its genocide, therefore muslims must accept it as such, and therefore just like that, you get 20% of the world's population all in perfect lock step, of one mind (dare I say a 'mindless collective'??) in supporting genocide. No questions, no ifs or buts. Apparently without even any of the 'moral flexibility' or hypocricy you just finished explaining is a feature of muslims.

There are two words starting with 'r' that describe this - one is 'ridiculous'.


You tried the denial angle also. But you still maintained that you support the genocide even if it didn't happen.

I am not denying anyone the agency to think for themselves. In fact I credit Muslims with great creativity in coming up with ways to support genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 11th, 2019 at 12:55am

moses wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 3:22pm:
qur'an 8.67: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made a great slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Seems allah / muhammad was partial to a bit of blood flowing around.


Strangely enough, that passage says the exact opposite. You?

Don't answer that.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 11th, 2019 at 12:57am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 3:08pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 2:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 12:28pm:

Quote:
Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief


Are you suggesting my explanation in the OP is not a rational cognitive process?


Absolutely FD. You insist that 20% of the world's population unquestioningly support genocide - and worse, your insistence is not even based on any Islamic view on genocide, nor on any knowledge on your part on how muslims actually view genocide. Merely on the false logic that because you (but no one else) think Muhammad committed genocide, and because muslims must consider Muhammad as the best of men, ipso facto, muslims must support genocide. Where does one even begin at dismantling such flaw in logic? If nothing else, you are ignoring the muslims who don't accept that the massacre even happened, in which case it is clearly not every single muslim on earth, man woman and child as you insist.

As I keep saying, you singularly deny muslims any agency to think for themselves (and then laughably contradict yourself by acknowledging muslims who are morally flexible). You laughably insist 1.5 billion men women and children from all cultures, from all corners of the globe are in lock-step on this one belief - which also just happens to be the most inflamatory smear you could possibly think of (whats worse than supporting genocide?), and which is obviously particularly sensitive in the context of our own western cultural history. That is applying group think in the most blatant and bigoted way - with the express aim of defaming and smearing an entire religious group of people.


We've been over this. Plenty of other people also think Muhammad committed genocide.


Plenty of muslims don't. Some even don't believe it happened at all.

But you singularly deny every one of them any agency to think for themselves, and arrogantly apply a blanket "FD-think" on all of us. *YOU* insist its genocide, therefore muslims must accept it as such, and therefore just like that, you get 20% of the world's population all in perfect lock step, of one mind (dare I say a 'mindless collective'??) in supporting genocide. No questions, no ifs or buts. Apparently without even any of the 'moral flexibility' or hypocricy you just finished explaining is a feature of muslims.

There are two words starting with 'r' that describe this - one is 'ridiculous'.


Starting with R?

Shurely shome mishtake.

Don't you mean W?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 11th, 2019 at 1:03am

freediver wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 6:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 3:08pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 2:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 9th, 2019 at 12:28pm:

Quote:
Not necessarily, because in this case you are talking about a rational cognitive process to arrive at that belief


Are you suggesting my explanation in the OP is not a rational cognitive process?


Absolutely FD. You insist that 20% of the world's population unquestioningly support genocide - and worse, your insistence is not even based on any Islamic view on genocide, nor on any knowledge on your part on how muslims actually view genocide. Merely on the false logic that because you (but no one else) think Muhammad committed genocide, and because muslims must consider Muhammad as the best of men, ipso facto, muslims must support genocide. Where does one even begin at dismantling such flaw in logic? If nothing else, you are ignoring the muslims who don't accept that the massacre even happened, in which case it is clearly not every single muslim on earth, man woman and child as you insist.

As I keep saying, you singularly deny muslims any agency to think for themselves (and then laughably contradict yourself by acknowledging muslims who are morally flexible). You laughably insist 1.5 billion men women and children from all cultures, from all corners of the globe are in lock-step on this one belief - which also just happens to be the most inflamatory smear you could possibly think of (whats worse than supporting genocide?), and which is obviously particularly sensitive in the context of our own western cultural history. That is applying group think in the most blatant and bigoted way - with the express aim of defaming and smearing an entire religious group of people.


We've been over this. Plenty of other people also think Muhammad committed genocide.


Plenty of muslims don't. Some even don't believe it happened at all.

But you singularly deny every one of them any agency to think for themselves, and arrogantly apply a blanket "FD-think" on all of us. *YOU* insist its genocide, therefore muslims must accept it as such, and therefore just like that, you get 20% of the world's population all in perfect lock step, of one mind (dare I say a 'mindless collective'??) in supporting genocide. No questions, no ifs or buts. Apparently without even any of the 'moral flexibility' or hypocricy you just finished explaining is a feature of muslims.

There are two words starting with 'r' that describe this - one is 'ridiculous'.


You tried the denial angle also. But you still maintained that you support the genocide even if it didn't happen.

I am not denying anyone the agency to think for themselves. In fact I credit Muslims with great creativity in coming up with ways to support genocide.


That's true, FD. Let's write down all the creative ways the Muselman supports genocide.

1. Moh killed some Jews.

2. Your Muselman worships Moh.

3. Always absolutely never ever.

Have we missed any of their creative solutions?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 11th, 2019 at 8:55am
Tough titties, off with their heads.

They were literally a mindless collective of treacherous Jews, with no individual personality.

etc

etc

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 11th, 2019 at 2:06pm

freediver wrote on May 11th, 2019 at 8:55am:
Tough titties, off with their heads.

They were literally a mindless collective of treacherous Jews, with no individual personality.

etc

etc


You said that, FD. Supporting genocide, are you?

Naughty naughty.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 13th, 2019 at 2:53pm

freediver wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 6:46pm:
I am not denying anyone the agency to think for themselves. In fact I credit Muslims with great creativity in coming up with ways to support genocide.


You really are FD.

You are claiming that every single muslim, man woman and child support genocide - without even bothering to hear what they have to say about it.

Thats as clear cut case of denying people agency as you can get FD

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 13th, 2019 at 2:58pm

freediver wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 6:46pm:
I am not denying anyone the agency to think for themselves. In fact I credit Muslims with great creativity in coming up with ways to support genocide.


You are singularly denying them agency to reject genocide.

More succinct than my previous post I think.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 13th, 2019 at 4:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 2:53pm:

freediver wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 6:46pm:
I am not denying anyone the agency to think for themselves. In fact I credit Muslims with great creativity in coming up with ways to support genocide.


You really are FD.

You are claiming that every single muslim, man woman and child support genocide - without even bothering to hear what they have to say about it.

Thats as clear cut case of denying people agency as you can get FD


Freeeedom, innit.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 13th, 2019 at 4:43pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 2:53pm:

freediver wrote on May 10th, 2019 at 6:46pm:
I am not denying anyone the agency to think for themselves. In fact I credit Muslims with great creativity in coming up with ways to support genocide.


You really are FD.

You are claiming that every single muslim, man woman and child support genocide - without even bothering to hear what they have to say about it.

Thats as clear cut case of denying people agency as you can get FD


I bothered to hear why you support genocide. And Abu. And Falah. And Lestat. And a few others I think.

Do I have to personally speak to a billion people before you let me say anything about Muslims?


Quote:
You are singularly denying them agency to reject genocide.


Wrong. I am saying they choose to support genocide.

Am I denying you agency when I say you support genocide?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 13th, 2019 at 7:15pm

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:43pm:
Do I have to personally speak to a billion people before you let me say anything about Muslims?


Of course not FD. But you are the one insisting that every single one of them, man woman and child, supports genocide. 1.5 billion of them. Not just a 'popular belief amongst muslims' or even a 'predominate belief amongst muslims' - no. Every single one of them without exceptions. Tell me how this is possible without personally knowing what each and every muslim thinks? How is this not just dismissing 20% of the entire population as a mindless hive mind who have no agency? You somehow 'know' that not a single one of them goes through any sort of rationalising process to decide that genocide is just not for them. This may be in spite of what they believe about Muhammad, or because of it. No, sorry not allowed. FD gets to define what they believe and why they believe it. You are, as we say, denying them any human agency for thinking for themselves. You think for them. Which is passing strange after you just finished explaining to me how muslims can be 'morally flexible' in, for example, believing that Islam is peaceful.

Muslims can be morally flexible - but apparently not on the issue of supporting genocide.



freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:43pm:
Quote:
You are singularly denying them agency to reject genocide.


Wrong.


Lets put this to the test shall we? Would you accept a muslim's rejection of genocide?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 13th, 2019 at 7:26pm

Quote:
Of course not FD. But you are the one insisting that every single one of them, man woman and child, supports genocide. 1.5 billion of them. Not just a 'popular belief amongst muslims' or even a 'predominate belief amongst muslims' - no. Every single one of them without exceptions.


Would it be fair to say that every single one of them is a follower of Muhammad?


Quote:
Would you accept a muslim's rejection of genocide?


It depends how sneaky they are being, like with your weasel words on the mindless collective of treacherous Jews thing.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 13th, 2019 at 7:47pm

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:26pm:
Would it be fair to say that every single one of them is a follower of Muhammad?


No.

Define 'follower'.

Muslims 'follow' the Quran FD. They follow Allah.

Contemporaries of Muhammad 'followed' Muhammad. Many muslims today read the sayings and behaviours of Muhammad and follow those, but there is a significant number who reject the ahadith and sunna and follow the Quran only. For these people, Muhammad plays no real role in their religion. As for the 'best of mankind to follow' verse, many muslims simply take this as intended only for Muhammad's immediate contemporaries. Apart from this line, the Quran hardly says anything about Muhammad. Moses is mentioned more.

For a great deal of muslims, the alleged banu Qurayza massacre would be completely irrelevant for them. There would be no reason for such muslims to unquestioningly support 'genocide' on the pretext that Muhammad did it.


freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:26pm:
It depends how sneaky they are being, like with your weasel words on the mindless collective of treacherous Jews thing.


Like me? Well I'm a genocide 'true believer' according to you - so it doesn't seem like you are giving them much choice. Like I said, muslims think how FD says they think. Although of course we are generously given the chance to disprove our default guilt.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 13th, 2019 at 8:23pm

Quote:
Muslims 'follow' the Quran FD. They follow Allah.


What do Muslims know about the Quran and Allah, other than what Muhammad told them?

Does the Quran tell Muslims that Muhammad is the best example to all mankind?


Quote:
but there is a significant number who reject the ahadith and sunna and follow the Quran only. For these people, Muhammad plays no real role in their religion.


You mean other than telling them what the Quran is?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 13th, 2019 at 10:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:15pm:

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:43pm:
Do I have to personally speak to a billion people before you let me say anything about Muslims?


Of course not FD. But you are the one insisting that every single one of them, man woman and child, supports genocide. 1.5 billion of them. Not just a 'popular belief amongst muslims' or even a 'predominate belief amongst muslims' - no. Every single one of them without exceptions. Tell me how this is possible without personally knowing what each and every muslim thinks? How is this not just dismissing 20% of the entire population as a mindless hive mind who have no agency? You somehow 'know' that not a single one of them goes through any sort of rationalising process to decide that genocide is just not for them. This may be in spite of what they believe about Muhammad, or because of it. No, sorry not allowed. FD gets to define what they believe and why they believe it. You are, as we say, denying them any human agency for thinking for themselves. You think for them. Which is passing strange after you just finished explaining to me how muslims can be 'morally flexible' in, for example, believing that Islam is peaceful.

Muslims can be morally flexible - but apparently not on the issue of supporting genocide.



freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 4:43pm:
Quote:
You are singularly denying them agency to reject genocide.


Wrong.


Lets put this to the test shall we? Would you accept a muslim's rejection of genocide?


Oh, look. FD won't say.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 14th, 2019 at 10:56am

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:23pm:
What do Muslims know about the Quran and Allah, other than what Muhammad told them?

Does the Quran tell Muslims that Muhammad is the best example to all mankind?


Actually it seems to be a myth that the Quran says he is the *BEST* example. I can only find references of him being a good example. And as I said, many muslims interpret this as only referring to his immediate contemporaries - not all mankind for perpetuity. These are just one of the many examples of muslims who would not necessarily be bound to "support" his genocide. But in any case, even if you did accept that he is "a good" example for all mankind to follow, it should be obvious that this shouldn't necessitate blind support for his alleged massacre. As you yourself have acknowledged, muslims can adopt all sorts of moral flexibility.

Also, acknowledging and even revering Muhammad as a messenger for the Quran does not necessarily require blindly supporting him in his actions and behaviours as a man and earthly leader. While unusual, it would not be huge stretch to believe in Muhammad's prophethood, while also rejecting, if not outright denouncing some of his behaviour as a mortal and fallible man.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 14th, 2019 at 12:32pm
I am sure you could conjure up endless examples of these theoretical Muslims, but have you ever met one?

Also, if a Muslim can denounce Muhammad's behaviour, could that behaviour also include the 'revelation' of parts of the Quran, such as chapter 9, for his personal gain as a political and military leader?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 14th, 2019 at 12:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 10:56am:

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:23pm:
What do Muslims know about the Quran and Allah, other than what Muhammad told them?

Does the Quran tell Muslims that Muhammad is the best example to all mankind?


Actually it seems to be a myth that the Quran says he is the *BEST* example. I can only find references of him being a good example. And as I said, many muslims interpret this as only referring to his immediate contemporaries - not all mankind for perpetuity. These are just one of the many examples of muslims who would not necessarily be bound to "support" his genocide. But in any case, even if you did accept that he is "a good" example for all mankind to follow, it should be obvious that this shouldn't necessitate blind support for his alleged massacre. As you yourself have acknowledged, muslims can adopt all sorts of moral flexibility.

Also, acknowledging and even revering Muhammad as a messenger for the Quran does not necessarily require blindly supporting him in his actions and behaviours as a man and earthly leader. While unusual, it would not be huge stretch to believe in Muhammad's prophethood, while also rejecting, if not outright denouncing some of his behaviour as a mortal and fallible man.


Quite so. All Muslim prophets are mortal and infallible humans. Moses is also acknowledged to have murdered a few in his time. The prophets aren't deities, as the prophet Yeheshua became for the Romans. They were not "sons" of God.

The problem with St Paul's deification of Jesus was the subject of Christian scholars and factions for centuries. They largely quibbled over various interpretations of the trinity, whereas Muslims abandoned Jesus' Godhood entirely. This is why Mohammed is not allowed to be illustrated. Muslim scholars feared a cult of personality, as the Jews did for Jehova. Jews wanted to avoid the brazen bulls of their time, just as Muslims wanted to avoid the iconography of the prophet Yeheshua.

Over time, of course, these became enshrined as sacred rules - to the extent that Muslims would come to kill those who illustrated Moh, describing blasphemy.

Like plenty of Muslims, G, you avoid this kind of pedantry and cut to the chase. Islam is about revering the presence of God. You choose Islam as one of many spiritual paths, as you choose Muhammed as one of many prophets.

Mohammed merely established the 5 pillars Muslims follow. He did not demand death "for those who insult the prophet". He did not demand Muslim holy lands or states. He certainly didn't declare a war on all infidels.

These are examples of people following false prophets, just as Islam defines St Paul. They're examples of people deifying rules and rituals - so much that they miss the point of what the prophets taught.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 14th, 2019 at 12:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 10:16am:
To you it literally can't be disproved FD. You have actually revealed this in your response to my question whether or not you would accept a muslim's rejection of genocide. What did you say? You said they would be weasel words and in any case justifying genocide.


They would only be weasel words if they were weasel words Gandalf, such as your attempt to argue that you do not support genocide by redefining Muhammad's predilection for Jew slaughtering as something other than genocide.


Quote:
What was glaringly missing from your answer was any acknowledgement whatsoever that they could ever be actually rejecting genocide. So lets just be honest here.


You mean other than the several times I have already explicitly acknowledged the theoretical possibility that I am wrong?


Quote:
I could post a video of a muslim saying "I don't support genocide" and you will spin it as justifying genocide, and rhetorically ask "ah, but are they rejecting Muhammad??". Lets not pretend otherwise FD.


I could also go with "they're not actually a Muslim", such as when you attempted to give an example of a 3 year old Muslim who does not support genocide.


Quote:
In any case you still don't understand burden of proof.


This is not a courtroom Gandalf. Did you know that it is impossible to prove a scientific theory? But also trivial to disprove, if the theory is wrong.


Quote:
You state it as fact, therefore if it is impossible to prove, it is wrong by default.


This is a logical fallacy Gandalf. To give an example that is closer to home, you cannot prove the Muhammad either existed or was a profit. Does that mean Islam is wrong by default?


Quote:
There was a very simple solution to this - you just had to say something like "Many muslims would probably support genocide because..." or "it is logical that muslims should support genocide (although thats obviously not necessarily the case)" - or even putting a question mark at the end.


There were many options open to me. I went with the one I thought was the most honest.


Quote:
But just casually throwing it out there as an unquestioned fact


This is an example of a lie Gandalf, as well as a hysterical over-reaction. I did not present it as being unquestioned.


Quote:
And therefore, you can't simply justify such a baseless statement by this ridiculous argument that its actually incumbent upon me to disprove it.


No-one is forcing you to disprove it Gandalf. You are more than welcome to try to bluster your way around the inconvenient reality of your inability to cite a single Muslim who does not support genocide.


Quote:
The point I badly expressed should still be obvious: how many 3 year olds do you know support genocide? How many 3 year old muslims do you think there are?


I would not expect a three-year old to understand a religion well enough to adopt it in any meaningful sense.


Quote:
If you tell me you can't see how absurd and offensive that is, and deliberately offensive, then I would say you are lying.


You support genocide. Are you offended by me projecting your own views onto other Muslims? Or are you just offended that I do not accept your polishing of Muhammad's genocide turd into something shiny, or according to your latest version, imaginary?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 14th, 2019 at 12:50pm

freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 12:32pm:
I am sure you could conjure up endless examples of these theoretical Muslims, but have you ever met one?


Oh, we all have, dear. Didn't you go to the pub with some?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 14th, 2019 at 12:52pm

freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 12:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 10:16am:
To you it literally can't be disproved FD. You have actually revealed this in your response to my question whether or not you would accept a muslim's rejection of genocide. What did you say? You said they would be weasel words and in any case justifying genocide.


They would only be weasel words if they were weasel words Gandalf, such as your attempt to argue that you do not support genocide by redefining Muhammad's predilection for Jew slaughtering as something other than genocide.


Quote:
What was glaringly missing from your answer was any acknowledgement whatsoever that they could ever be actually rejecting genocide. So lets just be honest here.


You mean other than the several times I have already explicitly acknowledged the theoretical possibility that I am wrong?

[quote]I could post a video of a muslim saying "I don't support genocide" and you will spin it as justifying genocide, and rhetorically ask "ah, but are they rejecting Muhammad??". Lets not pretend otherwise FD.


I could also go with "they're not actually a Muslim", such as when you attempted to give an example of a 3 year old Muslim who does not support genocide.


Quote:
In any case you still don't understand burden of proof.


This is not a courtroom Gandalf. Did you know that it is impossible to prove a scientific theory? But also trivial to disprove, if the theory is wrong.


Quote:
You state it as fact, therefore if it is impossible to prove, it is wrong by default.


This is a logical fallacy Gandalf. To give an example that is closer to home, you cannot prove the Muhammad either existed or was a profit. Does that mean Islam is wrong by default?


Quote:
There was a very simple solution to this - you just had to say something like "Many muslims would probably support genocide because..." or "it is logical that muslims should support genocide (although thats obviously not necessarily the case)" - or even putting a question mark at the end.


There were many options open to me. I went with the one I thought was the most honest.


Quote:
But just casually throwing it out there as an unquestioned fact


This is an example of a lie Gandalf, as well as a hysterical over-reaction. I did not present it as being unquestioned.


Quote:
And therefore, you can't simply justify such a baseless statement by this ridiculous argument that its actually incumbent upon me to disprove it.


No-one is forcing you to disprove it Gandalf. You are more than welcome to try to bluster your way around the inconvenient reality of your inability to cite a single Muslim who does not support genocide.


Quote:
The point I badly expressed should still be obvious: how many 3 year olds do you know support genocide? How many 3 year old muslims do you think there are?


I would not expect a three-year old to understand a religion well enough to adopt it in any meaningful sense.


Quote:
If you tell me you can't see how absurd and offensive that is, and deliberately offensive, then I would say you are lying.


You support genocide. Are you offended by me projecting your own views onto other Muslims? Or are you just offended that I do not accept your polishing of Muhammad's genocide turd into something shiny, or according to your latest version, imaginary?[/quote]

They polish so that we may eat.

Mindless collective, innit. So unfair.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 14th, 2019 at 2:38pm

freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 12:32pm:
I am sure you could conjure up endless examples of these theoretical Muslims, but have you ever met one?

Also, if a Muslim can denounce Muhammad's behaviour, could that behaviour also include the 'revelation' of parts of the Quran, such as chapter 9, for his personal gain as a political and military leader?


FD, when will it occur to you that the quip "have you met one?" is not in any way shape or form a validation of the claim that there are no muslims on earth who oppose genocide?

As for the second paragraph - its ridiculous to think that muslims would start second guessing which parts of the Quran are trully the word of God and which are Muhammad's cynical ploys to further his personal agenda.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 14th, 2019 at 3:52pm

freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 12:49pm:
Quote:
But just casually throwing it out there as an unquestioned fact


This is an example of a lie Gandalf, as well as a hysterical over-reaction. I did not present it as being unquestioned.


Sorry FD, are you saying the 4 words that make up the thread title are not a statement of fact?

If you are claiming now that it is a lie to portray it as unquestioned fact, would you agree you lied when you wrote the thread title?

Now you say you "acknowledged the theoretical possibility that I am wrong". When did this start FD - yesterday? You certainly made no such acknowledgement in your OP, which was written almost 6 months ago. Can you confirm you've been happy to let the statement stand as unquestioned fact for literally months before finally deciding to acknowledge that it may not be true?

How many other statement of facts have you written here that contain an unseen fine print saying "yeah nah, just kidding!"?


freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 12:49pm:
This is a logical fallacy Gandalf. To give an example that is closer to home, you cannot prove the Muhammad either existed or was a profit. Does that mean Islam is wrong by default?


And thats a terrible example, because there is in fact loads of evidence to support the notion that Muhammad existed - 10s of thousands of individual accounts we know as the ahadith, references to the person in Roman texts that match Islamic accounts, official documents either preserved or referenced by secondary sources mentioning Muhammad (Ashtinane of Muhammad, Treaty of Medina etc). My guess is that the evidence for the existence of Muhammad is as close to 'proof' as just about anything you'll get in ancient history. Put simply, if I were to state as fact "Muhammad existed" - I would have quite a lot of solid historical evidence to back me up. And I certainly wouldn't be laughed out of court for it.

Also, to be "wrong" doesn't always require it to be disproved. That is what we call a logical fallacy.

The burden you have on the other hand, is not even comparable. You are not saying anything like "so and so existed" or "this happened" - which would only sound ridiculous if you had no shred of evidence to support it. No, you are saying that the default position of muslims is that they must necessarily support genocide, and this remains so until proven otherwise. The problem you have here is that the argument you present (at least in the OP) doesn't even support this claim. Your logic merely makes the case for why there is good reason for muslims to support genocide - not that they all actually do. And as you yourself acknowledged, muslims are capable of being 'morally flexible' with their tradition. And thats before I even go into the whole issue of what either the banu qurayza incident, or the term 'genocide' means to different people, and that your argument is entirely premised on *YOUR* interpretation of both the history and the term.

So back to the burden of proof. Simply put, stating as fact that (say) Muhammad existed certainly does put the burden of proof on you. So you better have some convincing evidence to back the claim up - which we have, on stilts. Similarly, you stated as fact that *ALL* muslims support genocide. Again, you need some convincing evidence as the one with the burden of proof. But of course you don't, you couldn't possibly get it - that would require individually asking every single muslim on earth. The giveaway is in the *ALL* part of the statement. That is what you said. You did not say "there is good reason for muslims to support genocide" or "muslims supporting genocide certainly makes sense", or even "I reckon a lot of muslims support genocide". All of that is at least supportable. The claim that every single muslim on the earth supports genocide is not supportable - and therefore shouldn't be stated as fact. And doing so is certainly "wrong" - by default.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 14th, 2019 at 6:04pm
What's wrong with that, G? FD has never said he rules out the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman. We know now he upholds it.

If FD says he loves telling porkies, that's being honest, shurely.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 14th, 2019 at 6:20pm

Karnal wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
What's wrong with that, G? FD has never said he rules out the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman. We know now he upholds it.

If FD says he loves telling porkies, that's being honest, shurely.


I think this just needs reiterating:

FD thinks that calling the thread title an unquestioned statement of fact is lie and a "hysterical over-reaction".

- and apparently thats because 5 months after making it, he grudgingly acknowledged that it could be wrong.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 14th, 2019 at 7:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 10:56am:

freediver wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 8:23pm:
What do Muslims know about the Quran and Allah, other than what Muhammad told them?

Does the Quran tell Muslims that Muhammad is the best example to all mankind?


Actually it seems to be a myth that the Quran says he is the *BEST* example. I can only find references of him being a good example. And as I said, many muslims interpret this as only referring to his immediate contemporaries - not all mankind for perpetuity. These are just one of the many examples of muslims who would not necessarily be bound to "support" his genocide. But in any case, even if you did accept that he is "a good" example for all mankind to follow, it should be obvious that this shouldn't necessitate blind support for his alleged massacre. As you yourself have acknowledged, muslims can adopt all sorts of moral flexibility.

Also, acknowledging and even revering Muhammad as a messenger for the Quran does not necessarily require blindly supporting him in his actions and behaviours as a man and earthly leader. While unusual, it would not be huge stretch to believe in Muhammad's prophethood, while also rejecting, if not outright denouncing some of his behaviour as a mortal and fallible man.

Well, it's a pretty dreadful condemnation of 7th century Arabs if Mohammed, a thoroughly dreadful, traitorous, horny, dishonest, sly semi-literate trader was their best. When he lied, cheated, deceived, murdered  he - BINGO! - quickly got a 'revelation' to say it was Allah that told him.  Even Aisha called him out for being a dishonest, opportunistic charlatan with his 'just-in-time 'revelations'.

Most 'nice' Muslims have not read or understood a word of the Koran and the deeds of Mohammed. ALL the jihadist murderers have read it all, several times, and live and kill by it. The less courageous ones, like Gandalf, wage jihad by dissembling about it all here and wherever thee can.  That's THEIR jihad - agit-prop for sharia.

There are no reforming ORGANISATION in Islam that are striving to expunge the violent, jihadist, sharia-aiming, subjugating bits of the Koran and Mohammed's life. They do not exist because they do nor dare exist. It's all furtive apostates in the shadows who fear, very justifiably, for their lives.


There is no reforming Aladin's final word and revelation to humanity through the lips of the jinn and final prophet, Mahomet. i

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 14th, 2019 at 8:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:20pm:

Karnal wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
What's wrong with that, G? FD has never said he rules out the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman. We know now he upholds it.

If FD says he loves telling porkies, that's being honest, shurely.


I think this just needs reiterating:

FD thinks that calling the thread title an unquestioned statement of fact is lie and a "hysterical over-reaction".

- and apparently thats because 5 months after making it, he grudgingly acknowledged that it could be wrong.


Well, you never did ask FD if he upholds the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman, G.

One did suggest, you know.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 14th, 2019 at 9:07pm

Karnal wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:20pm:

Karnal wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
What's wrong with that, G? FD has never said he rules out the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman. We know now he upholds it.

If FD says he loves telling porkies, that's being honest, shurely.


I think this just needs reiterating:

FD thinks that calling the thread title an unquestioned statement of fact is lie and a "hysterical over-reaction".

- and apparently thats because 5 months after making it, he grudgingly acknowledged that it could be wrong.


Well, you never did ask FD if he upholds the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman, G.

One did suggest, you know.

The Muselman is waging a relentless jihad against the rest of the world.  It must be resisted and countered.

Not by you, Paki shitehead, of course. By honest and true people.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 14th, 2019 at 9:25pm

Frank wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 9:07pm:

Karnal wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:20pm:

Karnal wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 6:04pm:
What's wrong with that, G? FD has never said he rules out the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman. We know now he upholds it.

If FD says he loves telling porkies, that's being honest, shurely.


I think this just needs reiterating:

FD thinks that calling the thread title an unquestioned statement of fact is lie and a "hysterical over-reaction".

- and apparently thats because 5 months after making it, he grudgingly acknowledged that it could be wrong.


Well, you never did ask FD if he upholds the use of porkies in his campaign against the Muselman, G.

One did suggest, you know.

The Muselman is waging a relentless jihad against the rest of the world.  It must be resisted and countered.

Not by you, Paki shitehead, of course. By honest and true people.


Oh, I see. Honest and true people, eh? Relentless war.

Etc, etc, etc.

What have the Paki shiteheads done to you, dear boy? Have they offended you?

So unfair. Tsk tsk tsk  ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 15th, 2019 at 2:18pm
notice how Frank just gaily carries on replying to everything with the same 'never ever' argument - completely oblivious to what he's actually replying to?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 15th, 2019 at 7:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
notice how Frank just gaily carries on replying to everything with the same 'never ever' argument - completely oblivious to what he's actually replying to?



All those moderate Muslims - which part of the Koran and the hadiths have they rejected or reinterpreted correctly?  In what way do these moderate Muslims think that the Muslim Brotherhood, Hizb-ul Tahrir, Hamas, Hezbollah are Islamically incorrect? 

At what forums do they tell them so?



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Auggie on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 15th, 2019 at 8:30pm

Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.

You got it.

Except being Muslims is nothing like Scots - or others - eating haggis. 


So you are in the dark as you have been all these years.

Try better.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by greggerypeccary on May 15th, 2019 at 8:32pm

Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:


;D

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 15th, 2019 at 9:21pm

Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


Auggie would you accept the argument that a 3 year old is a Muslim?


polite_gandalf wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 2:38pm:

freediver wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 12:32pm:
I am sure you could conjure up endless examples of these theoretical Muslims, but have you ever met one?

Also, if a Muslim can denounce Muhammad's behaviour, could that behaviour also include the 'revelation' of parts of the Quran, such as chapter 9, for his personal gain as a political and military leader?


FD, when will it occur to you that the quip "have you met one?" is not in any way shape or form a validation of the claim that there are no muslims on earth who oppose genocide?


I already acknowledged the claim is impossible to prove.

But it is also trivial to disprove. For example, have you ever met a Muslim who does not support genocide?


Quote:
As for the second paragraph - its ridiculous to think that muslims would start second guessing which parts of the Quran are trully the word of God and which are Muhammad's cynical ploys to further his personal agenda.


I believe one of your excuses for Muhammad's genocide went along those lines. Also, Muslims often use the context of the revelation of a verse, for example preparing for a particular battle, to clarify the meaning. So it is hardly a stretch, and chapter 9 was clearly written to help Muhammad round up an army for the purpose of rape and pillage.


Quote:
Sorry FD, are you saying the 4 words that make up the thread title are not a statement of fact?


As I just explained (and you included in your quote) I did not present it as unquestioned. In response to your next question, I did not present it as unquestioned. You are hysterically misrepresenting what I said. In case you have forgotten my point, I did not present it as unquestioned.


Quote:
My guess is that the evidence for the existence of Muhammad is as close to 'proof' as just about anything you'll get in ancient history.


In other words, not proof. Therefor, you must accept by your own logic that Muhammad did not exist. Or, to turn it back around, my logical explanation in the OP is as close to proof as you can get that all Muslims support genocide.


Quote:
The burden you have on the other hand, is not even comparable. You are not saying anything like "so and so existed" or "this happened" - which would only sound ridiculous if you had no shred of evidence to support it. No, you are saying that the default position of muslims is that they must necessarily support genocide, and this remains so until proven otherwise.


I did not say that.


Quote:
Again, you need some convincing evidence as the one with the burden of proof.


Again, this is not a court. I am happy to rest my case on the explanation in the OP.


Quote:
But of course you don't, you couldn't possibly get it - that would require individually asking every single muslim on earth.


I just finished explaining to you that my claim is impossible to prove, but now you insist I do not get the same point when you make it?


Quote:
The claim that every single muslim on the earth supports genocide is not supportable


I supported it in the OP.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 15th, 2019 at 9:35pm

Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


Oh, I know. Is there a Danish-fancier who doesn't eat Mormor's stool?

We'll ask the old boy.

Old boy, we know you're British and everything, but in your experience with those who like Danish, do any of them reject your Mormor's stool?

Yes, we know you never speaka-da-English when it comes to these sorts of questions, but do feel free to ask for a translation, okay?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 16th, 2019 at 10:00am

freediver wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
As I just explained (and you included in your quote) I did not present it as unquestioned. In response to your next question, I did not present it as unquestioned. You are hysterically misrepresenting what I said. In case you have forgotten my point, I did not present it as unquestioned.


"All muslims support genocide" - is presenting the claim as an unquestioned fact FD.

I'm sorry you are touchy about this, but its true.

Also presented as 'unquestioned' is the expanded version in the OP:


Quote:
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.


I don't see any wriggle room in that FD.


freediver wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
In other words, not proof. Therefor, you must accept by your own logic that Muhammad did not exist. Or, to turn it back around, my logical explanation in the OP is as close to proof as you can get that all Muslims support genocide.


Sorry FD, you are way off.

The claim that Muhammad existed is provable - in the sense that actual historical evidence can be presented to support it. Whether or not it is considered "proven" is almost entirely subjective, as with most things with history. Its not like proving a mathematical formula with a nice clean equation. Its weighing up evidence and is ultimately left to individuals to decide whether its compelling enough to consider it "proven". But at the least we can say that such a claim is "provable", as much as anything in history can be proven. Put simply, I can make the claim "Muhammad existed", and I would have a great deal of evidential authority on which to say it.

Your claim on the other hand, your silly statement of unquestioned fact, is a claim about each and every personal belief of around 1.5 billion individuals. It is theoretically provable too, but only if you have access to the thought processes of each and every one of those 1.5 billion people, which you obviously never will. Note that it is *NOT* an argument about how logically muslims should believe based on (your interpretation of) Islamic doctrine - because you have made the claim about people ("all muslims"), not anything else. The very best you could do is get to "some or even most muslims support geonocide" - this could be extrapolated from representative samples and surveys, for example. Or as I said before, you could make a "it is logical for muslims to support genocide" type argument (not that they necessarily do in reality) But these are in fact completely separate cases to saying 100% of muslims support it. You leave yourself no room for maneuver with that - you literally are left to asking each and every one of them, otherwise its certifiable bullshit.


freediver wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
I just finished explaining to you that my claim is impossible to prove, but now you insist I do not get the same point when you make it?


FD the thread title and its associated OP is the world's most stupid statement of unquestioned fact. You are now saying, 6 months after making this stupid statement, "yeah nah, just kidding, actually maybe not all muslims support genocide after all" - but somehow still stand by the original statement of unquestioned fact?

I wonder why you never bothered to mention in the OP, or anywhere for 6 months your belief that you actually don't think "all muslims support genocide" is really true - even while you're stating as unquestioned fact that "all muslims support genocide"?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 16th, 2019 at 12:40pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 10:00am:

freediver wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
As I just explained (and you included in your quote) I did not present it as unquestioned. In response to your next question, I did not present it as unquestioned. You are hysterically misrepresenting what I said. In case you have forgotten my point, I did not present it as unquestioned.


"All muslims support genocide" - is presenting the claim as an unquestioned fact FD.

I'm sorry you are touchy about this, but its true.


You regularly make this complaint about the things I post. It is both pointless and untrue. I should not have to constantly reassure you that the questions you ask about my posts exist.


Quote:
The claim that Muhammad existed is provable - in the sense that actual historical evidence can be presented to support it.


You are misrepresenting the existence of evidence in favour as proof. It is not. I have presented equally compelling evidence in favour of my claim that all Muslims support genocide. But I do not misrepresent it as proof. You are being hypocritical by insisting I default to the position that I am incorrect without that proof, while at the same time insisting on statements of fact pertaining to 1400 years ago that are equally without proof. You shift the goal posts based on what you want to believe, but you cannot prove that Muhammad existed any more easily than I can prove that all Muslims support genocide.

Furthermore, your counter to my claim inevitably falls back to emotional hysteria of the "how very dare you" variety rather than rational argument. Your "unquestioned fact" BS is a meaningless appeal to emotion. I did not present it as unquestioned, and it would mean nothing if I did (other than that I would be wrong about whether it is questioned).


Quote:
It is theoretically provable too


But not in reality, hence more meaningless garbage from you as a substitute for a rational argument.


Quote:
But these are in fact completely separate cases to saying 100% of muslims support it. You leave yourself no room for maneuver with that - you literally are left to asking each and every one of them, otherwise its certifiable bullshit.


You are being irrational Gandalf. By your logic all of science is certifiable BS. Science rests on making unprovable but falsifiable claims, and no-one gets hysterical about the inability to prove scientific law. It is the falsifiability that makes science powerful and keeps it changing. And it is the trivial falsifiability of my claim that has you so hysterical and irrational. You realise how trivial it would be to disprove my claim that all Muslims support genocide, and your failure to do so has you lashing out in every direction.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 16th, 2019 at 1:31pm
That's true, G. FD shouldn't have to prove his questions exist. You're being really unfair here.

If FD asks you a question, you should answer it, not ask him another question in return. If you play that game, of course FD's going to have to prove his questions exist.

What do you expect him to do - answer it?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 16th, 2019 at 2:47pm

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 12:40pm:
You regularly make this complaint about the things I post. It is both pointless and untrue.


Because you regularly post wildly unsubstantiated claims. Remember when you stated as fact that the misused Malik Fahd government funds were sent to terrorists? I think your "evidence" was the witty rejoinder "I'm sure the receipts are in order". Or maybe I just missed the "nah just kidding" clarification you may or may not have put in the fine print 6 months later.

Now you are crying foul because I dare take that 4 word statement of unquestioned fact at face value, when presumably I should understand that you don't really mean what you say.



Quote:
You are misrepresenting the existence of evidence in favour as proof. It is not. I have presented equally compelling evidence in favour of my claim that all Muslims support genocide.


No FD, you have presented some attempted logic by way of deductive reasoning to argue why they should support genocide, not any actual evidence that they do. It is the logic that because Islam says x then muslims cannot do y, therefore muslims should support z. Like I keep saying, this says nothing about what muslims actually support or don't support in reality.

There is nothing wrong with prosecuting such an argument. The problem is, you change "muslims should support..." to "muslims *DO* support...". Or in other words, you are claiming the existence of real life behaviour of certain individuals (100% of the muslim population no less) based on nothing but a 3 step logic. It is also incomparable to the Muhammad existing example. Here I refer to actual physical hard evidence that points to the man having lived and ruled. If you had comparable evidence, you would have documented records of what every single real life individual muslim in the world actually say they believe. I do not base my claim that Muhammad existed on any deductive reasoning, I base it on the fact that there are written preserved documents attesting to his existence, that are most likely authentic. Conversely you don't base the claim that all muslims support genocide on any actual records of what all muslims think, but on some logic you came up from your understanding of Islamic doctrine.


Quote:
Furthermore, your counter to my claim inevitably falls back to emotional hysteria of the "how very dare you" variety


Thats funny FD, as your reaction to me daring to think that you actually mean what you say seems suspiciously like something of the "how very dare you" variety.



Quote:
You are being irrational Gandalf. By your logic all of science is certifiable BS. Science rests on making unprovable but falsifiable claims, and no-one gets hysterical about the inability to prove scientific law. It is the falsifiability that makes science powerful and keeps it changing. And it is the trivial falsifiability of my claim that has you so hysterical and irrational. You realise how trivial it would be to disprove my claim that all Muslims support genocide, and your failure to do so has you lashing out in every direction.


So correct me if I'm wrong - but are you saying that you deliberately made such a bs claim as "all muslims support genocide" - precisely because its such bs, and that this was really a test for me to disprove it?

In fact, saying "all muslims support genocide" wasn't done as a vicious and deliberately offensive smear at all - no, it was all in the interests of advancing science - right?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 16th, 2019 at 3:53pm
Ah, scientific, innit.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 16th, 2019 at 5:52pm

Quote:
Because you regularly post wildly unsubstantiated claims.


I substantiated it in to OP Gandalf.


Quote:
No FD, you have presented some attempted logic by way of deductive reasoning to argue why they should support genocide, not any actual evidence that they do.


There is plenty of evidence. You, for example. Every Muslim that has posted on the topic here. And it is not evidence for why they should support genocide. I think they should not. It is evidence that they do, unfortunately, support genocide.


Quote:
Or in other words, you are claiming the existence of real life behaviour of certain individuals (100% of the muslim population no less) based on nothing but a 3 step logic.


This is another of your common deceptions - misrepresenting part of my argument as the entire argument. You will spend page after page flipping from one aspect of my argument to another, claiming each one in turn is the entire argument. We have done this before Gandalf.


Quote:
It is also incomparable to the Muhammad existing example.


It is comparable in that you cannot prove that Muhammad exists, therefor by your own logic your default position must be that he did not.


Quote:
Here I refer to actual physical hard evidence that points to the man having lived and ruled.


What "hard evidence"?


Quote:
If you had comparable evidence, you would have documented records of what every single real life individual muslim in the world actually say they believe.


Again you decieve, Muslim. That would be proof. You shift the goalposts at every opportunity.


Quote:
So correct me if I'm wrong - but are you saying that you deliberately made such a bs claim as "all muslims support genocide" - precisely because its such bs, and that this was really a test for me to disprove it?


No. I made the claim because you would fail to disprove it, because it is true. My reference to science was to highlight your irrationality. Like I clearly explained, if we applied your logic, all of science is complete BS (and Muhammad did not exist).


Quote:
In fact, saying "all muslims support genocide" wasn't done as a vicious and deliberately offensive smear


How very dare you.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Auggie on May 16th, 2019 at 6:37pm

freediver wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
Auggie would you accept the argument that a 3 year old is a Muslim?


No, I don't accept it, because I believe that a person shouldn't be called 'any religion' unless they self-identify as being an adherent of that faith.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 16th, 2019 at 6:41pm
So why did you say this is circular logic?


Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Auggie on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
So why did you say this is circular logic?


Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


The point I was trying to make is that your claim is that all Muslims support terrorism and that if they don't support violence then they're not a Muslim.

That's a very convenient statement to make, which essentially makes no room for people like Gandalf and the vast majority of Muslims who don't support terrorism.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
So why did you say this is circular logic?


Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


The point I was trying to make is that your claim is that all Muslims support terrorism and that if they don't support violence then they're not a Muslim.

That's a very convenient statement to make, which essentially makes no room for people like Gandalf and the vast majority of Muslims who don't support terrorism.


My argument is that all Muslims support genocide. Gandalf supports genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 16th, 2019 at 6:45pm

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 5:52pm:
There is plenty of evidence. You, for example. Every Muslim that has posted on the topic here.


Thats what 3 or 4 real life muslims?

Congratulations, you have evidence that 3 or 4 muslims support genocide. Note how that is not 1.5 billion men women and children consisting of the entire muslim population. Your 'evidence' is therefore entirely irrelevant to the actual claim you make.

By thinking that this is evidence for your claim, you are necessarily applying the 'mindless collective' argument - ie you have found a handful of muslims who support genocide - the rest must think the same - and hey, I have the 'logic' of why they believe it to seal the deal.

As I keep saying, you are singularly denying individual muslims of agency to think for themselves. They think whatever FD deems fit for them to think. In case its not obvious alraedy, thats highly insulting.


freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 5:52pm:
This is another of your common deceptions - misrepresenting part of my argument as the entire argument.


I am referring to the thread title and the OP - which I already quoted.

There is no shred of evidence in any of that to substantiate the actual claim you make (all muslims support genocide). Only an attempt at deductive reasoning to support the idea that  it makes sense for muslims to support genocide (but says nothing about whether every single muslims actually does).

If, as you seem to be suggesting, that the OP was only a part of your argument, and that I'm not allowed to accept the argument you present in the OP at face value, then the obvious question is - why didn't you complete your argument in the OP? Unless of course, it was  your entire argument at the time, and now seeing how ridiculous it is, you frantically run back to add in some half baked qualifications ("its actually not a statement of fact you know") - and pretend thats what you meant all along.


freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 5:52pm:
because it is true


Hang on FD, you've just spent all yesterday lecturing me that its impossible to prove. You even came out and said it may not be true. How does that work exactly? Or is this another statement of fact thats not really a statement of fact?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Auggie on May 16th, 2019 at 6:49pm

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
So why did you say this is circular logic?


Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


The point I was trying to make is that your claim is that all Muslims support terrorism and that if they don't support violence then they're not a Muslim.

That's a very convenient statement to make, which essentially makes no room for people like Gandalf and the vast majority of Muslims who don't support terrorism.


My argument is that all Muslims support genocide. Gandalf supports genocide.


There's no convincing a fanatic.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 16th, 2019 at 6:52pm

Quote:
Thats what 3 or 4 real life muslims?


I am happy to take their word for it.


Quote:
Congratulations, you have evidence that 3 or 4 muslims support genocide. Note how that is not 1.5 billion men women and children consisting of the entire muslim population. Your 'evidence' is therefore entirely irrelevant to the actual claim you make.


No less relevant than your evidence of Muhammad's existence.


Quote:
By thinking that this is evidence for your claim, you are necessarily applying the 'mindless collective' argument


You are getting desperate to project your immorality onto me. You should be honest here and admit that you are the only one to actually use the mindless collective argument.


Quote:
I am referring to the thread title and the OP - which I already quoted.


You are lying about it. I introduced other evidence in the OP.


Quote:
Hang on FD, you've just spent all yesterday lecturing me that its impossible to prove. You even came out and said it may not be true. How does that work exactly? Or is this another statement of fact thats not really a statement of fact?


It is theoretically possible that I am wrong. Impossible to prove does not mean or even imply wrong. You cannot prove that Muhammad existed. Scientific theories and laws cannot be proven. etc

How many pages do I need to spend explaining to you that your demands for proof are just empty bluster? And that your 'logic' that I must accept it as false without proof is just emotionally desperate? Surely you get the point by now?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 16th, 2019 at 6:54pm

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
So why did you say this is circular logic?


Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


The point I was trying to make is that your claim is that all Muslims support terrorism and that if they don't support violence then they're not a Muslim.

That's a very convenient statement to make, which essentially makes no room for people like Gandalf and the vast majority of Muslims who don't support terrorism.


My argument is that all Muslims support genocide. Gandalf supports genocide.


There's no convincing a fanatic.


Are you changing your argument? Or just giving up?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Auggie on May 16th, 2019 at 6:58pm

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:54pm:

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
So why did you say this is circular logic?


Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


The point I was trying to make is that your claim is that all Muslims support terrorism and that if they don't support violence then they're not a Muslim.

That's a very convenient statement to make, which essentially makes no room for people like Gandalf and the vast majority of Muslims who don't support terrorism.


My argument is that all Muslims support genocide. Gandalf supports genocide.


There's no convincing a fanatic.


Are you changing your argument? Or just giving up?


It is clear that you've crossed the bridge to extremism and fanaticism. Making the blanket and unequivocal claim that 'all Muslims support genocide' numerous times is completely irrational and bordering on paranoia.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 16th, 2019 at 7:20pm

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:52pm:
You are getting desperate to project your immorality onto me. You should be honest here and admit that you are the only one to actually use the mindless collective argument.


According to you muslims don't think for themselves, they think what FD deems fit for them to think. And I can prove this by pointing to the fact that you make the claim that every single muslim in the world supports genocide - without giving any consideration to what any, save for about 4, actually believe.

If that doesn't count as a 'mindless collective' argument I don't know what does.


freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:52pm:
It is theoretically possible that I am wrong.


You just unquivocally stated that your claim is true. Yet you simultaneously state that its possible you are wrong. Go figure.

Clearly you are confused.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 16th, 2019 at 7:37pm

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:52pm:
How many pages do I need to spend explaining to you that your demands for proof are just empty bluster? And that your 'logic' that I must accept it as false without proof is just emotionally desperate? Surely you get the point by now?


Depends how much more confused you are going to make yourself I guess.

On the one hand you act incensed and outraged when I dare challenge your claim that all muslims support genocide, as if its gospel truth. Then in your next breath you candidly acknowledge that its possible you are actually wrong. So its "I'm right, how dare you question me!", followed by "well I could be wrong, its impossible to prove" - which you insist has been your argument all along, despite nothing about it in the OP, and not thinking to bring that up until 6 months after making the claim.

And the point about "proving" it that you seem incapable of understanding, is that when you state as unquestioned fact what every single member of a particular group "supports", you need, at a bare minimum, evidence of what those individuals actually think, before it is remotely valid. Not a lame attempt at deductive reasoning that arrogantly makes assumptions about other people's thought processes, based purely on your subjective interpretation of the religion they follow.

Why don't you just stop this nonsense and concede what we both know: that you really meant to say "muslims should support genocide" or "it makes sense for muslims to support genocide" - which surely you must understand is *COMPLETELY* different to saying that every single muslim on earth definitely *DOES* support genocide, which is a patently ridiculous thing to claim.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 16th, 2019 at 8:58pm

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:58pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:54pm:

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:49pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

Auggie wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
So why did you say this is circular logic?


Auggie wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
FD's circular logic:

All Muslims support genocide, but if there's a Muslim who doesn't support genocide then they're not really Muslim.

All Scottish people eat Haggis, but if there's Scot who doesn't eat Haggis, then he's 'no true Scotsman'.


The point I was trying to make is that your claim is that all Muslims support terrorism and that if they don't support violence then they're not a Muslim.

That's a very convenient statement to make, which essentially makes no room for people like Gandalf and the vast majority of Muslims who don't support terrorism.


My argument is that all Muslims support genocide. Gandalf supports genocide.


There's no convincing a fanatic.


Are you changing your argument? Or just giving up?


It is clear that you've crossed the bridge to extremism and fanaticism. Making the blanket and unequivocal claim that 'all Muslims support genocide' numerous times is completely irrational and bordering on paranoia.


Gandalf has already tried hysterical over-reaction. It didn't work for him either.

Do you disagree with anything in the OP?


Quote:
According to you muslims don't think for themselves


According to your lies about me. You keep getting further and further from what I actually say Gandalf. Am I going to spend the rest of the thread explaining every lie you tell?


Quote:
If that doesn't count as a 'mindless collective' argument I don't know what does.


Your argument that the Jews slaughtered by Muhammad were literally a mindless collective without individual personalities counts. My argument does not. Not sure why the distinction is so difficult for you to see. You use the mindless collective argument to justify genocide, because you are a Muslim. When it finally dawned on you how bad that made you look, you tried to project your callous disregard for the victims of genocide onto me. You have been doing it ever since.


Quote:
You just unquivocally stated that your claim is true.


And yet I am still humble enough to concede the theoretical possibility that I am wrong. You keep adding strange adjectives to what I say. Unequivocal. Unquestioned. etc. Have you mistaken me for your God?Can I not just speak on my own behalf?


Quote:
On the one hand you act incensed and outraged when I dare challenge your claim that all muslims support genocide


You are projecting your hysteria on to me. I expected and intended you to disagree with me. I actually expected you would have attempted to provide some examples long before now (something a bit better than a 3 year old "Muslim"). I guess I set you a harder challenge than I realised.


Quote:
Then in your next breath you candidly acknowledge that its possible you are actually wrong.


Is it theoretically possible that you are wrong? Why do you struggle so much when I state the bleeding obvious? Am I the only one here who utters unquestionable, unequivocal (I am sure there were more along the way) facts?


Quote:
And the point about "proving" it that you seem incapable of understanding, is that when you state as unquestioned fact what every single member of a particular group "supports", you need, at a bare minimum, evidence of what those individuals actually think, before it is remotely valid.


Hence, your claims that Muhammad existed are not even remotely valid. Every scientific law is not even remotely valid. This is the goalpost you set for me alone. This is what counts for rational from a Muslim.


Quote:
Why don't you just stop this nonsense and concede what we both know: that you really meant to say "muslims should support genocide"


I meant what I actually said. I am not going to weasel it down for you.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 17th, 2019 at 9:21am

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 8:58pm:
You keep getting further and further from what I actually say Gandalf. Am I going to spend the rest of the thread explaining every lie you tell?


That really depends on how much more you are going to keep reinventing your argument FD. I stick to what you actually said in the OP, not the 'yeah nah just kidding' version you attempted to create 6 months later and now pretend was your argument all along. So just we're clear, here it is again - your exact words:


Quote:
All Muslims support genocide



Quote:
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.

This manifests itself in a variety of ways. For example, every Muslim who has posted here has attempted to excuse Muhammad's genocide by claiming that the three large Jewish tribes of Medina were party to the treaty of Medina and that each successively violated it, thus being to blame for their own genocide. This story appears to be a recent fabrication and Muslims refuse to discuss it's origin.


[and ignoring the irrelevant stuff about what one individual muslim allegedly says]

So lets just stick to this shall we? Lets not deliberately muddy the waters with misleading things that you clearly didn't say in that like "I acknowledge the theoretical possibility that I am wrong". Your desperate attempts to backtrack and insert a cryptic "yeah nah, just kidding" clause in the fine print 6 months later is a blatantly dishonest attempt to rewrite and reinvent a clearly stated argument.

I know its hard FD, because it is fundamentally flawed logic - the idea that you can make a clear unquestioned statement of fact about how 100% of every muslim thinks, without knowing anything at all about what all those muslims actually do think. Perhaps you know its stupid and flawed logic, and thats why you are backpeddling now with your "I always said I could be wrong" BS that you somehow never thought to mention when you actually presented your argument.


freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 8:58pm:
I actually expected you would have attempted to provide some examples long before now (something a bit better than a 3 year old "Muslim"). I guess I set you a harder challenge than I realised.


I have already said it is a clearly deliberate insult and that I will not dignify the proposterous notion that it is actually necessary to produce a muslim who doesn't support genocide before it can even be considered that not every single muslim, man woman and child are genocide supporters.

It is also the most obvious flawed logic, which is what I have focused on: the idea that the burden of proof is on me to disprove such an absurd claim, which as I keep saying, is wrong by default without any actual evidence to back it up. And no, an attempt at deductive reasoning is not any sort of evidence of what people think. Of course it is evidence of sorts for the argument that "it makes sense for muslims to support genocide", or "muslims *SHOULD* support genocide (irrespsective of whether they do or don't in reality).


freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 8:58pm:
I meant what I actually said. I am not going to weasel it down for you.


You mean any more than you already have? Thats a relief!

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 17th, 2019 at 9:50am

freediver wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 8:58pm:
Quote:
You just unquivocally stated that your claim is true.


And yet I am still humble enough to concede the theoretical possibility that I am wrong.


Yes but the question is, are you humble enough to concede you are completely contradicting yourself?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 17th, 2019 at 1:08pm
How am I contradicting myself Gandalf?

Also, are you suggesting I have changed my argument?

Why are the opinions of individual Muslims irrelevant?

You didn't answer my question about whether you concede the theoretical possibility that you are wrong. Why is that? Is it because that would compel you to use common sense rather than seeking every possible way to misinterpret what I say?


Quote:
I have already said it is a clearly deliberate insult and that I will not dignify the proposterous notion that it is actually necessary to produce a muslim who doesn't support genocide before it can even be considered that not every single muslim, man woman and child are genocide supporters.


So it's not because you are just blustering on account of your inability to disprove my claim the easy way?


Quote:
It is also the most obvious flawed logic, which is what I have focused on: the idea that the burden of proof is on me to disprove such an absurd claim


It is the logic on which all of modern science is based.


Quote:
which as I keep saying, is wrong by default without any actual evidence to back it up


Why do you keep going round in circles on this Gandalf? You know what my response to this is.


Quote:
And no, an attempt at deductive reasoning is not any sort of evidence of what people think.


Do you believe Muhammad was the best example for all mankind to follow?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 17th, 2019 at 1:09pm
Gandalf, your 3 year old Muslim example got me thinking. How do Muslims explain Muhammad's genocide to children? Do they just try to avoid talking about it?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 17th, 2019 at 2:51pm

freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:08pm:
How am I contradicting myself Gandalf?

Also, are you suggesting I have changed my argument?

Why are the opinions of individual Muslims irrelevant?


1. two days ago you conceded you could be wrong about all muslims supporting genocide. You repeated that concession today. Yesterday you stated you are not wrong. Which is it?

2. "changed your argument" would be too generous. More accurately you have fumbled around desperately trying to cobble together something resembling coherent, backflipping and contradicting yourself in all sorts of knots in the process.

3. The opinions of individual muslims is the *ONLY* thing relevant to your argument. Pity you don't seem to think so though, and instead relied on some ham fisted attempt at deductive reasoning.


freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:08pm:
You didn't answer my question about whether you concede the theoretical possibility that you are wrong.


Of course it is FD. I would never say something so arrogant and ridiculous as "all muslims support geoncide" - and think that a ham fisted attempt at deductive reasoning is all the "evidence" I need to support it.


freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:08pm:
So it's not because you are just blustering on account of your inability to disprove my claim the easy way?


sure FD, here is Ibrahim, he's a muslim mate of mine. I have in my hand sworn testimony of his that he does not support genocide.

Is that what you are asking for? Do you find that compelling? What exactly do you think this proves?


freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:08pm:
It is the logic on which all of modern science is based.


Trust me FD, modern science does not use logic to 'prove' that 100% of individuals in a given population think the exact same belief to a man, woman and child.


freediver wrote on May 17th, 2019 at 1:08pm:
Do you believe Muhammad was the best example for all mankind to follow?


no FD. Oh dear, really bad example to use tsk tsk, I even explained this misnomer earlier.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 18th, 2019 at 6:41pm
How do Muslims explain Muhammad's genocide to children? Do they just try to avoid talking about it?


Quote:
1. two days ago you conceded you could be wrong about all muslims supporting genocide. You repeated that concession today. Yesterday you stated you are not wrong. Which is it?


It is what I actually said, not your lies about what I said.


Quote:
3. The opinions of individual muslims is the *ONLY* thing relevant to your argument.


So why did you say this:


Quote:
and ignoring the irrelevant stuff about what one individual muslim allegedly says


?


Quote:
Of course it is FD.


So why am I the only one who contradicts myself when I say this?


Quote:
sure FD, here is Ibrahim, he's a muslim mate of mine. I have in my hand sworn testimony of his that he does not support genocide.
Is that what you are asking for? Do you find that compelling? What exactly do you think this proves?


It may not be proof, but you have convinced me you are lying.


Quote:
Trust me FD, modern science does not use logic to 'prove' that 100% of individuals in a given population think the exact same belief to a man, woman and child.


Are you deliberately missing the point? How many times do I have to repeat this? Modern science is entirely built on theories that are impossible to prove but easy to disprove. Why does your "argument" not apply to that?


Quote:
no FD. Oh dear, really bad example to use tsk tsk, I even explained this misnomer earlier.


You explained what you think the Quran says, but not what you believe.

Why is he not the best example? Do you have a better one in mind.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 18th, 2019 at 11:56pm

freediver wrote on May 18th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
?


Sometimes a question is just a question.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 21st, 2019 at 3:09pm

freediver wrote on May 18th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
So why did you say this:

Quote:
and ignoring the irrelevant stuff about what one individual muslim allegedly says


?


Because its about me, not 1.5 billion people. If you are going to make statements about what 1.5 billion individual men women and children think and say, then you need to have 1.5 billion individual quotes to prove it. Nothing less.

Surely not even you are saying I am "proof" of what 1.5 billion people think are you? Because that would be the mother of all "mindless collective" arguments.


freediver wrote on May 18th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
So why am I the only one who contradicts myself when I say this?


Because you simultaneously say you are right, obviously.

And before you try it, saying I am sure Muhammad existed is not arrogant - as no one disputes it, and there is more than enough evidence to support it. Please don't even try to compare that claim to a claim about every single muslim, man woman and child having the exact same thought process about genocide, based on absolutely nothing but some ham-fisted attempt at deductive reasoning + it was gandalf wot did it.


freediver wrote on May 18th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
Modern science is entirely built on theories that are impossible to prove but easy to disprove. Why does your "argument" not apply to that?


Your absurd claim is not just impossible to prove, it is impossible to even have any basis at all - unless you are going to individually interview 1.5 billion men women and children from all corners of the globe. And thats why its not scientific. When you corner yourself by inserting the word "all", instead of "many" or even "most", then you doom any chances you might have had of making it in any way "scientific". Its now in the realm of "making crap up without having a clue". Thats what you do, its not what science does. Scientific theories may be easy to disprove, but they definitely give due respect to actual evidence. The case for a scientific theory does not solely rest on the logic of some deductive reasoning - at least not in the 'modern scientific' sense. It has to have actual evidence to support it.

What you present is an affront to modern science. It is the very sort of crap that modern science tries to expunge from the world.

Also, how is it easy to "disprove" Muhammad? History is not science. Nor is making up crap about the singular 'hive mind' thought processes of 1.5 billion people. Come to think of it, modern science has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Not sure why you keep bringing it up.


freediver wrote on May 18th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
Why is he not the best example? Do you have a better one in mind.


A better example for a someone living in the 21st century would be someone who didn't live in ancient history, I would have thought.

The Quran says he is an example, not that he is the best example. Just another flaw in your logic.




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 21st, 2019 at 9:46pm

Quote:
Because its about me, not 1.5 billion people.


All those other 1.5 billion Muslims are also individuals Gandalf.


Quote:
Surely not even you are saying I am "proof" of what 1.5 billion people think are you? Because that would be the mother of all "mindless collective" arguments.


I have spent the last 19 pages explaining to you that it is nothing to do with proof.


Quote:
Because you simultaneously say you are right, obviously.


So when you say it is theoretically possible for you to be wrong, you mean you actually are wrong?


Quote:
And before you try it, saying I am sure Muhammad existed is not arrogant


Could it be wrong?


Quote:
as no one disputes it


Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy Gandalf.


Quote:
and there is more than enough evidence to support it


But by your own logic, if you cannot prove it, you must default to it being a lie.


Quote:
Please don't even try to compare that claim to a claim


I am comparing logic Gandalf. Not the claims.


Quote:
it is impossible to even have any basis at all - unless you are going to individually interview 1.5 billion men women and children from all corners of the globe


Do they all believe that Muhammad existed?


Quote:
And thats why its not scientific. What you present is an affront to modern science.


You are confused about why I mentioned science Gandalf.


Quote:
The Quran says he is an example, not that he is the best example. Just another flaw in your logic.


Do you think there are any people who are a better example than Muhammad to mankind?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 22nd, 2019 at 1:49pm

freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 9:46pm:
All those other 1.5 billion Muslims are also individuals Gandalf.


Indeed. And you don't have a clue what almost all of them actually think. Yet you still think its ok to state that all of them, to a man woman and child, are of one mind in supporting genocide. Kinda like a mindless collective who are given no agency to think outside what FD deems fit for them to think.


freediver wrote on May 21st, 2019 at 9:46pm:
Do they all believe that Muhammad existed?


Probably.

Its the next logical leaps you apply that are the problem here FD.

Why can't a single muslim on earth believe that its not necessary to blindly support everything he did as a falible human, according to the circumstances of his time - especially when it has nothing to do with the actual message of Islam?

Why can't a single muslim on earth decide for themselves that the accounts of the alleged massacre are not as you depict them?

Will you at least acknowledge that there are some muslims around who don't believe the massacre happened - and who also don't subscribe to the "in any case they were a mindless collective, so genocide is still awesome" narrative that you ascribe to me?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 22nd, 2019 at 1:58pm
FD can't acknowledge that, G. He'd be speaking on behalf of Muslims.

And you don't count. You could be practicing taqiyya.

No, the only way to resolve this is to look at the Pew Survey in Cute and Cuddly Malaysia. 60% of them support death for apostasy, so that gives us a pretty good indication of what Muslims think about Moh's genocide of the Jewish race.

Mindless collective, no individuality whatsoever, so unfair.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 22nd, 2019 at 6:18pm
Muslims like their women on the Miss Piggy scale....

The Singer AND Dentist and the gharqad tree....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez6hwbDpdsg


And some weird botoxed Muslim Kardashians. Alladin, makes us look Scandinavian in a weird and deluded way, Insh'allah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BiSqGBpKZA

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:02pm
They are all mad. Keep them out.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=26&v=-KVtLs8--MU

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm

Quote:
Indeed. And you don't have a clue what almost all of them actually think.


We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Quote:
Its the next logical leaps you apply that are the problem here FD.


Before we get to that, why are you allowed to make statements on behalf of all Muslims, but not me?


Quote:
Why can't a single muslim on earth believe that its not necessary to blindly support everything he did as a falible human, according to the circumstances of his time - especially when it has nothing to do with the actual message of Islam?


Because they would then realise he made the entire thing up. He wrote too much of the rape and pillage into the Quran to separate the man's actions from the book. In any case, I will leave it to you to find one of these theoretical Muslims you keep banging on about.


Quote:
Will you at least acknowledge that there are some muslims around who don't believe the massacre happened - and who also don't subscribe to the "in any case they were a mindless collective, so genocide is still awesome" narrative that you ascribe to me?


You eventually got around to denying the massacre happened, once you realised supporting genocide was not a good look. But you still maintained your support for genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 22nd, 2019 at 9:17pm

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Exactly. Would you like to quote the Pew Survey, FD, or should I?

We'll await your reply. Just C&C Malaysia, or all the others?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 23rd, 2019 at 2:11pm

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Right, and which part of that survey establishes that 100% of them support genocide? I must have missed that question.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
why are you allowed to make statements on behalf of all Muslims, but not me?


This is a joke right? What statements "on behalf of all muslims" am I making that are even remotely equivalent to saying every single one of them, to a man woman and child supports genocide as a mindless hive mind with no individual agency? I've been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion amongst muslims and how every muslim has their own interpretation and understanding of their religion- which is literally the exact opposite of the approach you are taking, which is the mindless collective approach.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
Because they would then realise he made the entire thing up. He wrote too much of the rape and pillage into the Quran to separate the man's actions from the book. In any case, I will leave it to you to find one of these theoretical Muslims you keep banging on about.


There you go again, imposing your interpretation of Islam on to every single individual muslim, and denying them any agency to think differently to how you think muslims should think.

muslims think how I tell them to think ~ by FD.

Pathetic.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 23rd, 2019 at 6:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 2:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Right, and which part of that survey establishes that 100% of them support genocide? I must have missed that question.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
why are you allowed to make statements on behalf of all Muslims, but not me?


This is a joke right? What statements "on behalf of all muslims" am I making that are even remotely equivalent to saying every single one of them, to a man woman and child supports genocide as a mindless hive mind with no individual agency? I've been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion amongst muslims and how every muslim has their own interpretation and understanding of their religion- which is literally the exact opposite of the approach you are taking, which is the mindless collective approach.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
Because they would then realise he made the entire thing up. He wrote too much of the rape and pillage into the Quran to separate the man's actions from the book. In any case, I will leave it to you to find one of these theoretical Muslims you keep banging on about.


There you go again, imposing your interpretation of Islam on to every single individual muslim, and denying them any agency to think differently to how you think muslims should think.

muslims think how I tell them to think ~ by FD.

Pathetic.

Muhammed was genocidal.
You, as a Muslim, adore Muhammed. Have to.
Ergo - You support genocide.

There is no freedom of thought or speech under Muslim rule. As a Muslims you, all of you Muslims, must go along with whatever the hell Muhammed did.
To all the people Muslims conquered, you are the embodiment of Satan. Ruthless murderers, slavers, rapists, devastaters. For Muhammed.
From Christians in Egypt and Syria to Hindus in Norther India. Islam is Satan visited upon them.
Just ask them.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on May 23rd, 2019 at 8:11pm

Frank wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 6:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 2:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Right, and which part of that survey establishes that 100% of them support genocide? I must have missed that question.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
why are you allowed to make statements on behalf of all Muslims, but not me?


This is a joke right? What statements "on behalf of all muslims" am I making that are even remotely equivalent to saying every single one of them, to a man woman and child supports genocide as a mindless hive mind with no individual agency? I've been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion amongst muslims and how every muslim has their own interpretation and understanding of their religion- which is literally the exact opposite of the approach you are taking, which is the mindless collective approach.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
Because they would then realise he made the entire thing up. He wrote too much of the rape and pillage into the Quran to separate the man's actions from the book. In any case, I will leave it to you to find one of these theoretical Muslims you keep banging on about.


There you go again, imposing your interpretation of Islam on to every single individual muslim, and denying them any agency to think differently to how you think muslims should think.

muslims think how I tell them to think ~ by FD.

Pathetic.

Muhammed was genocidal.
You, as a Muslim, adore Muhammed. Have to.
Ergo - You support genocide.

There is no freedom of thought or speech under Muslim rule. As a Muslims you, all of you Muslims, must go along with whatever the hell Muhammed did.
To all the people Muslims conquered, you are the embodiment of Satan. Ruthless murderers, slavers, rapists, devastaters. For Muhammed.
From Christians in Egypt and Syria to Hindus in Norther India. Islam is Satan visited upon them.
Just ask them.




Looks like the full moon has risen again - the Islamophobes are baying at it.  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Always remember, Soren, you flew here, most Australian Muslims were born here.  You're a blow-in.   When are you going back to Copenhagen where you belong, hey?   ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 24th, 2019 at 5:47am

Quote:
Right, and which part of that survey establishes that 100% of them support genocide? I must have missed that question.


I did not claim it did. I was merely highlighting your hypocrisy on the issue of giving Muslims the agency to think for themselves. When they do, you and the apologists attempt to dismiss it by arguing they do not really mean what they say they mean.


Quote:
This is a joke right? What statements "on behalf of all muslims" am I making that are even remotely equivalent to saying every single one of them, to a man woman and child supports genocide as a mindless hive mind with no individual agency?


You said that all Muslims believe Muhammad existed. You made this claim without checking with all 1.5 billion of them.


Quote:
I've been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion amongst muslims and how every muslim has their own interpretation and understanding of their religion- which is literally the exact opposite of the approach you are taking, which is the mindless collective approach.


And as you keep forgetting Gandalf, you are the only one making the mindless collective argument. You used it to justify Muhammad's genocide.

And you have not been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion, except for one lame effort to project a view you do not hold onto a 3 year old "Muslim". Given the ease with which you could prove me wrong if I was wrong, it is actually quite surprising you went for bluster instead of revealing this diversity of opinion you claim exists.


Quote:
There you go again, imposing your interpretation of Islam on to every single individual muslim, and denying them any agency to think differently to how you think muslims should think.


Why is it that I am denying Muslims the agency to think for themselves but you are not, when we both make claims about what all Muslims believe?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 24th, 2019 at 8:50am
Good point, FD. You give the Muselmen the Freeeeedom to believe what you say. G says the Muselman should think for himself.

Chalk and cheese, innit.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 24th, 2019 at 10:13am

freediver wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 5:47am:
You said that all Muslims believe Muhammad existed. You made this claim without checking with all 1.5 billion of them.


LOL, if you recall I said "probably".

You did not say "All muslims probably support genocide". It would still be a stupid claim, but a hell of a lot *LESS* stupid than what you ended up with, and you wouldn't be forced to perform all these absurd mental gymnastics to keep propping it up.

Its the most ridiculous comparison too. The existence of Muhammad is a pretty fundamental part of Islam - given he is the one credited with revealing the Quran, so claiming to be a muslim while simultaneously rejecting the existence of Muhammad would be most unusual indeed - though not implausible I suppose. But about a gazillion times more implausible than being a muslim who didn't support genocide.

Yet still it was me, not you, who was  un-categorical about it - when I had far more justification to be categorical in my claim than you with yours. Speaks volumes really.


freediver wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 5:47am:
Given the ease with which you could prove me wrong if I was wrong, it is actually quite surprising you went for bluster instead of revealing this diversity of opinion you claim exists.


I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute. And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.

For some reason you never actually addressed that point. I expect your response would have been of the "they don't really mean what they say" variety, which of course, naturally is *NOT* doing any such thing as denying them agency to think for themselves, heaven forbid.


freediver wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 5:47am:
Why is it that I am denying Muslims the agency to think for themselves but you are not, when we both make claims about what all Muslims believe?


Are you still confused about the part where its you who says what 100% of muslims think and do, no questions asked, and not me?

You could of course sort this out by simply quoting me claiming, anywhere "All muslims [insert claim]"

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 24th, 2019 at 10:42am
All Muslims believe there is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is His prophet.

Clearly support for genocide, G, admit it.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 24th, 2019 at 6:45pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 8:11pm:

Frank wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 6:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 2:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Right, and which part of that survey establishes that 100% of them support genocide? I must have missed that question.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
why are you allowed to make statements on behalf of all Muslims, but not me?


This is a joke right? What statements "on behalf of all muslims" am I making that are even remotely equivalent to saying every single one of them, to a man woman and child supports genocide as a mindless hive mind with no individual agency? I've been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion amongst muslims and how every muslim has their own interpretation and understanding of their religion- which is literally the exact opposite of the approach you are taking, which is the mindless collective approach.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
Because they would then realise he made the entire thing up. He wrote too much of the rape and pillage into the Quran to separate the man's actions from the book. In any case, I will leave it to you to find one of these theoretical Muslims you keep banging on about.


There you go again, imposing your interpretation of Islam on to every single individual muslim, and denying them any agency to think differently to how you think muslims should think.

muslims think how I tell them to think ~ by FD.

Pathetic.

Muhammed was genocidal.
You, as a Muslim, adore Muhammed. Have to.
Ergo - You support genocide.

There is no freedom of thought or speech under Muslim rule. As a Muslims you, all of you Muslims, must go along with whatever the hell Muhammed did.
To all the people Muslims conquered, you are the embodiment of Satan. Ruthless murderers, slavers, rapists, devastaters. For Muhammed.
From Christians in Egypt and Syria to Hindus in Norther India. Islam is Satan visited upon them.
Just ask them.




Looks like the full moon has risen again - the Islamophobes are baying at it.  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Always remember, Soren, you flew here, most Australian Muslims were born here.  You're a blow-in.   When are you going back to Copenhagen where you belong, hey?   ::)

We all notice, Old Alzhemerite, that you have no counter-argument, only yawning. We DO see the pattern, even if you forget.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on May 24th, 2019 at 10:43pm

Frank wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 6:45pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 8:11pm:

Frank wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 6:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 2:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Right, and which part of that survey establishes that 100% of them support genocide? I must have missed that question.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
why are you allowed to make statements on behalf of all Muslims, but not me?


This is a joke right? What statements "on behalf of all muslims" am I making that are even remotely equivalent to saying every single one of them, to a man woman and child supports genocide as a mindless hive mind with no individual agency? I've been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion amongst muslims and how every muslim has their own interpretation and understanding of their religion- which is literally the exact opposite of the approach you are taking, which is the mindless collective approach.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
Because they would then realise he made the entire thing up. He wrote too much of the rape and pillage into the Quran to separate the man's actions from the book. In any case, I will leave it to you to find one of these theoretical Muslims you keep banging on about.


There you go again, imposing your interpretation of Islam on to every single individual muslim, and denying them any agency to think differently to how you think muslims should think.

muslims think how I tell them to think ~ by FD.

Pathetic.

Muhammed was genocidal.
You, as a Muslim, adore Muhammed. Have to.
Ergo - You support genocide.

There is no freedom of thought or speech under Muslim rule. As a Muslims you, all of you Muslims, must go along with whatever the hell Muhammed did.
To all the people Muslims conquered, you are the embodiment of Satan. Ruthless murderers, slavers, rapists, devastaters. For Muhammed.
From Christians in Egypt and Syria to Hindus in Norther India. Islam is Satan visited upon them.
Just ask them.




Looks like the full moon has risen again - the Islamophobes are baying at it.  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Always remember, Soren, you flew here, most Australian Muslims were born here.  You're a blow-in.   When are you going back to Copenhagen where you belong, hey?   ::)

We all notice, Old Alzhemerite, that you have no counter-argument, only yawning. We DO see the pattern, even if you forget.




Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Look, quieten down the howling, it's getting on the neighbour's nerves, OK?  Soren, you really need a good, long walkies it seems.  Off you trot now, there's a good boy, OK?    ::) ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 24th, 2019 at 11:05pm

Frank wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 6:45pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 8:11pm:

Frank wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 6:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 2:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Right, and which part of that survey establishes that 100% of them support genocide? I must have missed that question.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
why are you allowed to make statements on behalf of all Muslims, but not me?


This is a joke right? What statements "on behalf of all muslims" am I making that are even remotely equivalent to saying every single one of them, to a man woman and child supports genocide as a mindless hive mind with no individual agency? I've been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion amongst muslims and how every muslim has their own interpretation and understanding of their religion- which is literally the exact opposite of the approach you are taking, which is the mindless collective approach.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
Because they would then realise he made the entire thing up. He wrote too much of the rape and pillage into the Quran to separate the man's actions from the book. In any case, I will leave it to you to find one of these theoretical Muslims you keep banging on about.


There you go again, imposing your interpretation of Islam on to every single individual muslim, and denying them any agency to think differently to how you think muslims should think.

muslims think how I tell them to think ~ by FD.

Pathetic.

Muhammed was genocidal.
You, as a Muslim, adore Muhammed. Have to.
Ergo - You support genocide.

There is no freedom of thought or speech under Muslim rule. As a Muslims you, all of you Muslims, must go along with whatever the hell Muhammed did.
To all the people Muslims conquered, you are the embodiment of Satan. Ruthless murderers, slavers, rapists, devastaters. For Muhammed.
From Christians in Egypt and Syria to Hindus in Norther India. Islam is Satan visited upon them.
Just ask them.




Looks like the full moon has risen again - the Islamophobes are baying at it.  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Always remember, Soren, you flew here, most Australian Muslims were born here.  You're a blow-in.   When are you going back to Copenhagen where you belong, hey?   ::)

We all notice, Old Alzhemerite, that you have no counter-argument, only yawning. We DO see the pattern, even if you forget.


What about tsk tsk tsk  ::)?

Back to the kiddies' playground for you, alt jungend.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 25th, 2019 at 8:44am

Quote:
You did not say "All muslims probably support genocide". It would still be a stupid claim, but a hell of a lot *LESS* stupid than what you ended up with, and you wouldn't be forced to perform all these absurd mental gymnastics to keep propping it up.


What mental gymnastics Gandalf? Also, when you said that, were you saying that all Muslims are probably a mindless collective?


Quote:
Its the most ridiculous comparison too.


True, but still necessary to highlight the irrationality of your 'logic'.


Quote:
The existence of Muhammad is a pretty fundamental part of Islam - given he is the one credited with revealing the Quran, so claiming to be a muslim while simultaneously rejecting the existence of Muhammad would be most unusual indeed - though not implausible I suppose. But about a gazillion times more implausible than being a muslim who didn't support genocide.


So the existence of Muhammad is fundamental to Islam, but not the view that he was a good man?


Quote:
I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute.


You have done this several times, and I have responded several times.


Quote:
And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.


Yet another logical fallacy.


Quote:
For some reason you never actually addressed that point.


I addressed it every time you brought it up.


Quote:
Are you still confused about the part where its you who says what 100% of muslims think and do, no questions asked, and not me?


Where did I say what 100% of Muslims do?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 25th, 2019 at 12:45pm
Saves time, FD. Just say you responded before. That can be a new tactic, yes?

Say you proved G wrong a few years ago, that could work.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 26th, 2019 at 5:03pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 8:11pm:

Frank wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 6:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 23rd, 2019 at 2:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
We do have the Pew surveys, which you and every other apologist have attempted to discredit, because you don;t like what Muslims actually say they think.


Right, and which part of that survey establishes that 100% of them support genocide? I must have missed that question.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
why are you allowed to make statements on behalf of all Muslims, but not me?


This is a joke right? What statements "on behalf of all muslims" am I making that are even remotely equivalent to saying every single one of them, to a man woman and child supports genocide as a mindless hive mind with no individual agency? I've been at pains to point out the diversity of opinion amongst muslims and how every muslim has their own interpretation and understanding of their religion- which is literally the exact opposite of the approach you are taking, which is the mindless collective approach.


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:
Because they would then realise he made the entire thing up. He wrote too much of the rape and pillage into the Quran to separate the man's actions from the book. In any case, I will leave it to you to find one of these theoretical Muslims you keep banging on about.


There you go again, imposing your interpretation of Islam on to every single individual muslim, and denying them any agency to think differently to how you think muslims should think.

muslims think how I tell them to think ~ by FD.

Pathetic.

Muhammed was genocidal.
You, as a Muslim, adore Muhammed. Have to.
Ergo - You support genocide.

There is no freedom of thought or speech under Muslim rule. As a Muslims you, all of you Muslims, must go along with whatever the hell Muhammed did.
To all the people Muslims conquered, you are the embodiment of Satan. Ruthless murderers, slavers, rapists, devastaters. For Muhammed.
From Christians in Egypt and Syria to Hindus in Norther India. Islam is Satan visited upon them.
Just ask them.




Looks like the full moon has risen again - the Islamophobes are baying at it.  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Always remember, Soren, you flew here, most Australian Muslims were born here.  You're a blow-in.   When are you going back to Copenhagen where you belong, hey?   ::)


The Koran and Islam command the elimination of Jews. Muslims always defend their mistreatment of nonMuslims on the authority of Islam.
The most recent genocide by Muslims was of Armenians on a huge scale. On a smaller scale but just as determined, are the elimination of Christians and other non-Muslims across the Muslim world, especially in the Muslim Arab and Muslim African world. The savagery against Indians was colossal. The centuries long raids and slave-taking around the Meditrerreanean is very well documented.

There is absolutely NO freedom of thought or conscience where Islam rules or has any influence. Submission is radically against freedom of any kind.



Individual Muslim agency - tell us which parts of the Koran and the sharia they reject yet can claim to remain Muslims rather than be regarded as apostates. Which part of the Koran - Alladin's final, unalterable message - can bee safely ignored?



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 26th, 2019 at 8:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:13am:
I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute. And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.




The perennial  Muslim response to any claims of genocide - it didn't happen. Any massacre by Muslims that cannot be wished away are justified as self-defence (Islam allows you to kill all who resist Islam 'as self defence"). A critical appraisal of Muslim history is simply not possible for a Muslim except to find reasons for Alladin's displeasure about Muslims straying from sharia.

You are people who cling to your pre-modern minds and regard moving on from it as apostasy and blasphemy. For you sharia is uber alles because anything else would require to think for yourselves. And that's just not on under Islam.







Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 26th, 2019 at 8:56pm
Gandalf once tried to defend Muhammad's genocide by explaining that it was motivated by political expediency rather than racism.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 26th, 2019 at 9:12pm

freediver wrote on May 26th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
Gandalf once tried to defend Muhammad's genocide by explaining that it was motivated by political expediency rather than racism.


Was that when he said they were a Mindless Collective, no individuality whatsoever, so unfair?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 26th, 2019 at 9:38pm
It may have been the same thread. He flipped between excuses rather rapidly back then.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 28th, 2019 at 1:06pm

freediver wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 8:44am:
So the existence of Muhammad is fundamental to Islam, but not the view that he was a good man?


No muslim would dispute that he was a 'good man', but even good men can do bad things. As far as I know there is nothing to stop a muslim from criticising, and even denouncing particular acts and behaviours of Muhammad - and still revere him as a 'good man'. Whatever muslims say about Muhammad, I doubt if any would contend that he was flawless. There is even a hadith about him giving bad advise about farming, causing crops to fail - after which he admitted he was not fit to advise in such matters. Its not a stretch for a muslim to opine that he was unfit to condemn an entire tribe.

The Quran merely says that in Muhammad we have a good example to follow. What does that mean exactly? By "follow" is it merely referring to "following" what was revealed to him and not his actions and behaviour? Or is it merely addressing his immediate contemporaries when it says this - and not the whole of mankind for all time? There are muslims who absolutely do  argue one or both of these, thus at a stroke disproving your logic about why we all support geoncide.


freediver wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 8:44am:
You have done this several times, and I have responded several times.


You haven't - apart from your usual verbling of such muslims and insisting that they don't believe what they say they believe, and  in fact they believe what FD deems them fit to believe. (aka 'mindless collective').

If you had actually addressed it, you would literally have had no option but to acknowledge that there are muslims out there who don't think what you insist they think - thus at a stroke disproving the logic that forms your silly claim about 100% of muslims.


freediver wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 8:44am:
et another logical fallacy.


It is absolutely flawless logic. The entire premise of your claim was built on the assumption that the Quranic injunction to consider Muhammad 'the best example' (actually not 'best', as explained previously) means that we all have no choice but to support his every action - even if it included genocide.

I have just explained to you patiently and clearly how there are muslims who don't accept this assumption about what the Quran means in reference to Muhammad's example - ie they insist that it is reference only to only his revelation, or addressed to his contemporaries only. In such cases, musilms who hold this view are not beholden to the intellectual burden you ascribe to every single muslim, man woman and child


freediver wrote on May 25th, 2019 at 8:44am:
Where did I say what 100% of Muslims do?


I guess this is the part FD does his FD thing and plays idiotic semantic games to somehow deny that the statement "All Muslims support genocide" is not saying what 100% of muslims do.

Take it away FD, the floor is yours...

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 28th, 2019 at 5:27pm

Quote:
No muslim would dispute that he was a 'good man', but even good men can do bad things.


Oops I just slaughtered an entire tribe of Jews. Sorry about that. Now remember folks, be good to your mother.


Quote:
As far as I know there is nothing to stop a muslim from criticising, and even denouncing particular acts and behaviours of Muhammad - and still revere him as a 'good man'.


Then you won't have any trouble coming up with an example, will you?


Quote:
The Quran merely says that in Muhammad we have a good example to follow.


Which verse is that?


Quote:
You haven't - apart from your usual verbling of such muslims and insisting that they don't believe what they say they believe, and  in fact they believe what FD deems them fit to believe. (aka 'mindless collective').


Yes I have. Every time I make the same point, and every time you ignore it. This isn't even going round in circles Gandalf, this is dancing on the same point.


Quote:
It is absolutely flawless logic.


Do all Muslims struggle with logic?


Quote:
I guess this is the part FD does his FD thing and plays idiotic semantic games to somehow deny that the statement "All Muslims support genocide" is not saying what 100% of muslims do.


Did you think I meant donating money to the cause?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 29th, 2019 at 8:40am
Oh look, FD can't address my points so resorts back to his favourite 'reply by zinger' mode.


freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 5:27pm:
Quote:
You haven't - apart from your usual verbling of such muslims and insisting that they don't believe what they say they believe, and  in fact they believe what FD deems them fit to believe. (aka 'mindless collective').


Yes I have. Every time I make the same point, and every time you ignore it.


Can you at least show me where?


freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 5:27pm:
Which verse is that?

33:21


freediver wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 5:27pm:
Then you won't have any trouble coming up with an example, will you?


The logic is flawless FD, you can't deny it, and you're not even attempting to refute it.


Quote:
Did you think I meant donating money to the cause?


No, funnily enough.

I thought that when you said "All muslims support genocide" you were making a claim about what 100% of muslims do. Silly me I guess.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 29th, 2019 at 8:51am
Here is the most recent example, from the previous page of this thread:


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:

Quote:
Will you at least acknowledge that there are some muslims around who don't believe the massacre happened - and who also don't subscribe to the "in any case they were a mindless collective, so genocide is still awesome" narrative that you ascribe to me?


You eventually got around to denying the massacre happened, once you realised supporting genocide was not a good look. But you still maintained your support for genocide.


And here you are, two days later, in your second post in this thread after I made that one, insisting I never addressed it:


polite_gandalf wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:13am:
I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute. And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.

For some reason you never actually addressed that point. I expect your response would have been of the "they don't really mean what they say" variety, which of course, naturally is *NOT* doing any such thing as denying them agency to think for themselves, heaven forbid.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 29th, 2019 at 9:45am
As I thought FD - your 'answer' is to project what I allegedly think on to other muslims. We all have one big hive mind, no individual agency. Pathetic.

This is actually worse than not addressing it.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 29th, 2019 at 10:00am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:45am:
As I thought FD - your 'answer' is to project what I allegedly think on to other muslims. We all have one big hive mind, no individual agency. Pathetic.

This is actually worse than not addressing it.


My answer was to highlight yet another logical fallacy on your part. Denying genocide is not the same as opposing genocide. I doubt you would claim that a Nazi who goes round denying the holocaust opposes genocide, and you are a convenient example that the same applies to Muslims.

But thanks for giving up the pretense that I haven't responded.

Gandalf you are going to extraordinary lengths to establish some kind of theoretical possibility that Muslims can oppose genocide. But you have not provided one single example. It is a blatant double standard. You demand I do the impossible by proving a negative, and insert a mind boggling logical error that failure to do so leads to the conclusion that I am wrong. But when you fail to provide any evidence at all for something you claim exists, the standard does not apply.

Or are you not actually claiming that Muslims exist who oppose genocide? Are you trying to counter my argument with the mere theoretical possibility that they could exist?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 29th, 2019 at 11:19am

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:00am:
Denying genocide is not the same as opposing genocide.


Quite right FD. Yet from that you come up with something even more ridiculous - that "denying" therefore must equal "supporting".

Also I'm not necessarily talking about muslims who deny the massacre. My reference is to a particular strand of belief in Islam that undeniably (least by you) exists, that rejects the idea that muslims are obligated to "support" everything the prophet did in his life. They believe either that the Quranic verse that Muhammad is a 'good example' refers only to his role as passing on the message of the Quran, or that it refers only to his contemporaries, and not all of mankind.

Presuming you accept the existence of such muslims (you never said otherwise), you have never addressed the fact that this, at a stroke, dismantles your entire logic about why muslims must support genocide - because they reject the assumptions that make your logic. Simply pointing to me and what I allegedly believe as somehow 'proof' that such muslims still support genocide is frankly laughable on so many levels - not least because of the offensive notion that all muslims who are not me have no agency to think for themselves.


freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:00am:
Gandalf you are going to extraordinary lengths to establish some kind of theoretical possibility that Muslims can oppose genocide.


Whereas you tried to establish some theoretical possibility that all muslims do support genocide - and presented it as fact.

When presented with that, my only task is to establish the theoretical flaw in that. Which I have, by destroying the assumptions that makes up your logic. Your only counter to that is to point at a single muslim and say "look what he thinks!" Its beyond pathetic.


freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 10:00am:
You demand I do the impossible by proving a negative, and insert a mind boggling logical error that failure to do so leads to the conclusion that I am wrong. But when you fail to provide any evidence at all for something you claim exists, the standard does not apply.


Amazing you still don't get it. You were wrong by default the moment you came out and stated as fact that all muslims support genocide. You were still wrong when you thought all you needed to support that was a bit of deductive reasoning (that has proven to be flawed) as well as a single anecdote of one muslim's alleged beliefs. You were still wrong when you lied by trying to deny it was a statement of fact and all along were open to the possibility you were wrong (and then flatly rejecting it was wrong immediately after!). And finally you were still wrong when you came up with the idiotic idea that it is up to me to disprove your completely baseless claim, by coming up with an example of my own.

All you had to do to avoid all this was simply say what we both know you meant all along: that it is logical that muslims support genocide - not necessarily that they all do in reality.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 29th, 2019 at 11:33am

Quote:
Quite right FD. Yet from that you come up with something even more ridiculous - that "denying" therefore must equal "supporting".


Can you quote me?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 29th, 2019 at 12:07pm
OK FD, then how exactly were you "addressing" my point that muslims exist that don't hold the assumptions you say they do in the OP?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 29th, 2019 at 12:19pm
So FD, I think we can establish that your only response to me pointing out that not all muslims feel beholden to support all Muhammad's actions - including genocide is "hey look at gandalf!"

That is literally the response you chose to quote me today.

The logic of such a response is undeniable:

"no muslim in the world could possibly think x, because gandalf, a single muslim, definitely doesn't think x"

So can you explain to me again, how exactly that is not "your usual verbling of such muslims and insisting that they don't believe what they say they believe, and  in fact they believe what FD deems them fit to believe. (aka 'mindless collective')."?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 29th, 2019 at 1:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 12:07pm:
OK FD, then how exactly were you "addressing" my point that muslims exist that don't hold the assumptions you say they do in the OP?


I did not claim that no Muslims deny particular genocides. My claim is that all Muslims support genocide. As you demonstrate, these are not the same thing.


Quote:
So FD, I think we can establish that your only response to me pointing out that not all muslims feel beholden to support all Muhammad's actions - including genocide is "hey look at gandalf!"


....still blustering away, unable to provide a single example of his theoretical Muslim.


Quote:
That is literally the response you chose to quote me today.

The logic of such a response is undeniable:

"no muslim in the world could possibly think x, because gandalf, a single muslim, definitely doesn't think x"


I have no idea what you are ranting about here Gandalf. Can you quote what I "literally" said?


Quote:
So can you explain to me again, how exactly that is not "your usual verbling of such muslims and insisting that they don't believe what they say they believe, and  in fact they believe what FD deems them fit to believe. (aka 'mindless collective')."?


Sure. I did not call them a mindless collective. You used this term to describe the victims of Muhammad's genocide. I can quote you if you'd like. You are also the one who argued that Muslims do not really believe what they say they believe, in response to the Pew surveys.

Do you need me to quote myself not saying the things I have not said?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 29th, 2019 at 3:43pm

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 1:31pm:
I did not claim that no Muslims deny particular genocides. My claim is that all Muslims support genocide. As you demonstrate, these are not the same thing.


You are still not addressing the point.

I have repeatedly explained to you how the assumptions you express in the OP do not apply to all muslims. Muslims who reject the idea that being told Muhammad is a 'good example' means supporting his every move and action as a flawed human. You have been given ample opportunity to dispute the existence of such muslims, but you haven't. You have also singularly failed to refute the logic that such muslims are not beholden to the logical assumptions you ascribe to them in the OP. Instead you 'address it' by ranting on about how I've found a way to both deny genocide and support it - presumably thinking this is somehow relevant to how all those muslims think. If this is not insinuating that other muslims must think the same as me (without having a clue what they actually think), then your reference to me is completely irrelevant.

So, FD you are either applying the mindless collective argument, or you are not saying anything at all coherent. Which is it?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 29th, 2019 at 6:35pm

Quote:
You are still not addressing the point.


I am addressing the point that you made repeatedly, that I responded to repeatedly, and which you claim I did not respond to.


Quote:
I have repeatedly explained to you how the assumptions you express in the OP do not apply to all muslims. Muslims who reject the idea that being told Muhammad is a 'good example' means supporting his every move and action as a flawed human.


You have not given an example of a Muslim willing to criticise Muhammad.


Quote:
You have been given ample opportunity to dispute the existence of such muslims, but you haven't.


Are you demanding I prove a negative again Gandalf? They are your theoretical Muslims. There is no onus on me to disprove the existence of every kind of theoretical Muslim you can conjure up.


Quote:
Instead you 'address it' by ranting on about how I've found a way to both deny genocide and support it - presumably thinking this is somehow relevant to how all those muslims think.


It is relevant to the point you actually made.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 29th, 2019 at 7:27pm

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 6:35pm:
I am addressing the point that you made repeatedly


"addressing" it in a way that is completely irrelevant and nonsensical is, in the most absurd way, 'addressing it' I suppose. I'll grant you that.


freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 6:35pm:
Are you demanding I prove a negative again Gandalf? They are your theoretical Muslims. There is no onus on me to disprove the existence of every kind of theoretical Muslim you can conjure up


FD you are the only one conjuring up 'theoretical muslims'. You did that the moment you imagined what muslims think without a shred of actual evidence of them thinking it. Apart from your fantasies about what I said and think, you actually haven't come up with a single muslim supporting genocide. When you can't come up with anything except the most flawed logical leaps to assert the way 1.5 billion muslims think, it is not incumbent upon me to 'disprove' that by producing muslims who think differently. As I keep saying - such an idiotic claim without a shred of evidence is wrong by default. And of course it would be a pointless exercise anyway - if I quoted a muslim denouncing genocide, you would simply get to work on them with your idiotic rhetorical questions and twist their words to say the exact opposite of what they say. You know, your usual method. In any case, it misses the point - as I keep telling you. Your only argument is logical leaps + "ooh look what gandalf (didn't) say!" I don't need to prove to you what is already wrong by default - all that is required is to challenge the attempt at deductive reasoning that is the sole basis for the claim. And on that count, you haven't even begun to answer my challenge - apart from the worse than inane "cause gandalf said it!!".

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 29th, 2019 at 9:03pm

Quote:
"addressing" it in a way that is completely irrelevant and nonsensical is, in the most absurd way, 'addressing it' I suppose. I'll grant you that.


Your point was irrelevant. Denying genocide is not the same thing as opposing it.


Quote:
FD you are the only one conjuring up 'theoretical muslims'.


You are real. You support genocide. Abu was real. He supports genocide. Same with Falah. And the others.

All you have in response is imaginary Muslims.


Quote:
Apart from your fantasies about what I said and think, you actually haven't come up with a single muslim supporting genocide.


You do support genocide Gandalf. I have proof.


Quote:
And of course it would be a pointless exercise anyway - if I quoted a muslim denouncing genocide, you would simply get to work on them with your idiotic rhetorical questions and twist their words to say the exact opposite of what they say.


You are projecting again Gandalf. You are the one who said in response to the Pew surveys that the Muslims do not really mean what they say they mean.


Quote:
Your only argument is logical leaps + "ooh look what gandalf (didn't) say!"


I had to bump this thread because of you constantly lying about what my argument is. Even that was not enough.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 30th, 2019 at 10:03am

freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:03pm:
our point was irrelevant. Denying genocide is not the same thing as opposing it.


And my point wasn't even about denying genocide. Quite the opposite actually. I guess that explains your bizarre incredulity that you were not addressing my point. lol


freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:03pm:
You are projecting again Gandalf. You are the one who said in response to the Pew surveys that the Muslims do not really mean what they say they mean.


No I didn't, and we've been through this before. I stated clearly they meant what they said, but opined that in a different context they may think differently. Big difference.

You are the only one running with the line that when a muslim says one thing, they must mean something else. Your entire case depends on the idea that your ham-fisted attempt at "logic" must trump anything any muslim would say. Why else would an argument that says "all muslims support genocide" start not with actually demonstrating what "all muslims" support, but some attempt at deductive reasoning based on what you assume muslims must think? Thats why any muslim I might present that swears they don't support genocide would be no obstacle whatsoever to your argument - as you would simply subject them to the rhetorical question routine, starting with: "doesn't he consider Muhammad the best example"?

If your assumptions that forms your attempted logic in the OP are correct, then you would of course be correct in your claim - muslims have to support genocide, whether they like it or not. If they stop supporting genocide, I guess they stop being muslim. So thats why its completely pointless quoting a muslim saying they denounce genocide - it would be wrong - even if they didn't realise it. And thats why your argument necessarily involves asserting that muslims who don't support genocide don't really mean what they say. They are bound by a singular, inflexible, externally enforced thought process, with no agency to think for themselves. Dare I say it, a mindless collective.

Therefore the only useful way of refuting your argument is to refute the logic that forms it. And by recognising a strand within Islam where it is not necessary to revere or support Muhammad's every move and action (eg the 'Quran only' strand), where it is theoretically possible to even denounce actions committed by the prophet, your logic collapses.


freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 9:03pm:
I had to bump this thread because of you constantly lying about what my argument is.


If you are confused by what your own argument consists of FD, I suggest your 'go-to' point of reference be your own OP. That is entirely logical leaps + "ooh look what gandalf (didn't) say!"

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm

Quote:
And my point wasn't even about denying genocide.


And yet, that is what you said. Is that why you kept insisting I never responded, because I was only responding to what you said, not to something else that you meant?


Quote:
I guess that explains your bizarre incredulity that you were not addressing my point. lol


How is it bizarre to respond to what you said? Do you need me to do another quote bomb?


Quote:
No I didn't, and we've been through this before. I stated clearly they meant what they said, but opined that in a different context they may think differently. Big difference.


You said they would change their mind if they actually came close to getting what they want. In other words, they did not mean what they said. If anyone else claimed Muslims would change their mind about Islam to what they think Islam really is. you would go into your hysterical mindless collective defence. But you do the same thing without blinking.


Quote:
Thats why any muslim I might present that swears they don't support genocide would be no obstacle whatsoever to your argument - as you would simply subject them to the rhetorical question routine, starting with: "doesn't he consider Muhammad the best example"?


And yet you presented an example, and that is not how I responded.


Quote:
If your assumptions that forms your attempted logic in the OP are correct, then you would of course be correct in your claim - muslims have to support genocide, whether they like it or not.


That is not my claim Gandalf. That is your strawman.


Quote:
Therefore the only useful way of refuting your argument is to refute the logic that forms it.


Or you could give us an example of a Muslim who does not support genocide. But that is not an option for you, is it Gandalf?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on May 30th, 2019 at 2:31pm
There is not one muslim alive who will dare to question and denounce the many evil verses in the qur'an which cause and motivate rape torture and mass murder of the enemies of allah.

If they revere the cause of such things as being the infallible unchangeable words of allah, they then by definition support the engendered depravities.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 30th, 2019 at 2:37pm

freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
And yet, that is what you said.


No it wasn't. When I point to the belief that the "Muhammad good example" verse doesn't require 'supporting' Muhammad's every move and action - either because they consider it only applies to his role as revealer of the Quran, or that it only applies to his immediate contemporaries - how is that anything to do with denying the genocide? Quite the opposite - my point was they can accept the genocide happened, but not feel any obligation to support it - and could even condemn it. It is this point you have never addressed.


freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
You said they would change their mind if they actually came close to getting what they want. In other words, they did not mean what they said.


Rubbish. Changing your mind is not meaning something different to what you said. Saying what you don't mean means you are lying, and changing your mind is obviously not lying. I can't believe I have to point that out to you.


freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
Or you could give us an example of a Muslim who does not support genocide. But that is not an option for you, is it Gandalf?


Thats funny, you just said I did provide an example. Are you confused?


freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
Quote:
If your assumptions that forms your attempted logic in the OP are correct, then you would of course be correct in your claim - muslims have to support genocide, whether they like it or not.


That is not my claim Gandalf. That is your strawman.


So muslims aren't compelled to support genocide because of the verse in the Quran you insist they must obey? Funny FD, your OP says otherwise.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 30th, 2019 at 4:23pm
You are confused Gandalf. This is what you said:


polite_gandalf wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:13am:
I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute. And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.

For some reason you never actually addressed that point. I expect your response would have been of the "they don't really mean what they say" variety, which of course, naturally is *NOT* doing any such thing as denying them agency to think for themselves, heaven forbid.


How else am I supposed to interpret this but being about genocide denial?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 30th, 2019 at 6:03pm
well you didn't address that one either - apart from the trusty old "every muslim must think like gandalf" insult.

Would you care to have a go now?

Also why on earth would muslims be doctrinally obliged to 'support' something they don't even believe happened under Islam?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 30th, 2019 at 7:31pm
Have you seriously forgotten already?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 30th, 2019 at 9:26pm

freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 4:23pm:
You are confused Gandalf. This is what you said:


polite_gandalf wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:13am:
I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute. And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.

For some reason you never actually addressed that point. I expect your response would have been of the "they don't really mean what they say" variety, which of course, naturally is *NOT* doing any such thing as denying them agency to think for themselves, heaven forbid.


How else am I supposed to interpret this but being about genocide denial?


He's got you there, G. Now you're denying Moh's genocide.

Do you deny it?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 9:08am

freediver wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 7:31pm:
Have you seriously forgotten already?


I certainly haven't forgotton your 'because gandalf said it' non-response.

Did you have an actual response that is actually relevant?

Also why on earth would muslims be doctrinally obliged to 'support' something they don't even believe happened under Islam?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 31st, 2019 at 10:03am
Here is the last time, only two days ago, where you demanded I repeat myself:


freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 8:51am:
Here is the most recent example, from the previous page of this thread:


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:

Quote:
Will you at least acknowledge that there are some muslims around who don't believe the massacre happened - and who also don't subscribe to the "in any case they were a mindless collective, so genocide is still awesome" narrative that you ascribe to me?


You eventually got around to denying the massacre happened, once you realised supporting genocide was not a good look. But you still maintained your support for genocide.


And here you are, two days later, in your second post in this thread after I made that one, insisting I never addressed it:


polite_gandalf wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:13am:
I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute. And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.

For some reason you never actually addressed that point. I expect your response would have been of the "they don't really mean what they say" variety, which of course, naturally is *NOT* doing any such thing as denying them agency to think for themselves, heaven forbid.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 10:53am
Thanks FD, I think thats the third time you've proved to me that your answer to what other muslims besides me might or not think is to say "look at gandalf".

Do you have anything else? You know, something that doesn't involve projecting my alleged thoughts on to other musilms?

why on earth would muslims be doctrinally obliged to 'support' something they don't even believe happened under Islam? Is your only answer really "cause you did it"?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 31st, 2019 at 11:08am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 10:53am:
Thanks FD, I think thats the third time you've proved to me that your answer to what other muslims besides me might or not think is to say "look at gandalf".

Do you have anything else?


Sure. Abu.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 11:44am
Abu didn't deny it happened and cheered it on - or at least I'm happy to take FD's word for it thats what he did.

The question was about other muslims who deny the 'genocide' - who not even FD can deny exists. His 'answer' is to point to me apparently supporting genocide as a general principle even if I may not believe that Muhammad did it.

How does this make sense? FD is interested in logic in coming up with his claim. The logic that the Quran says x, and muslims are compelled to abide by it.

So it comes down to what the doctrine says, as the basis for what "all muslims" support. Thats the basis for FD's argument.

Yet in this case we are not talking about what the doctrine says. A 'no genocide' muslim denies Muhammad did it in the first place, so what is his doctrine commanding that he support? Certainly not genocide. Yet FD's only answer seems to be "well they'll support it anyway - because thats what gandalf did". Even though gandalf was talking completely outside any Islamic/doctrinal context.

So really FD needs to add an extra step to his logic. For the current logical process is clearly inadquate:


Quote:
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.


- he really has to add "they are somehow compelled to also support what they believe Muhammad didn't do".

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 31st, 2019 at 11:48am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 10:53am:
Thanks FD, I think thats the third time you've proved to me that your answer to what other muslims besides me might or not think is to say "look at gandalf".

Do you have anything else? You know, something that doesn't involve projecting my alleged thoughts on to other musilms?

why on earth would muslims be doctrinally obliged to 'support' something they don't even believe happened under Islam? Is your only answer really "cause you did it"?


You are missing the point Gandalf. Denying genocide is not the same as opposing it. As to why Muslims do this, can you think of any Muslims who might be able to explain it to you?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 31st, 2019 at 11:50am
Indeed, but it was never a "genocide" to begin with. It was a team of plotters executed for treason over a thousand years ago.

Who cares? Off with their heads.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 31st, 2019 at 11:52am

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 11:48am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 10:53am:
Thanks FD, I think thats the third time you've proved to me that your answer to what other muslims besides me might or not think is to say "look at gandalf".

Do you have anything else? You know, something that doesn't involve projecting my alleged thoughts on to other musilms?

why on earth would muslims be doctrinally obliged to 'support' something they don't even believe happened under Islam? Is your only answer really "cause you did it"?


You are missing the point Gandalf. Denying genocide is not the same as opposing it. As to why Muslims do this, can you think of any Muslims who might be able to explain it to you?


I doubt that, FD. G has to consult with a Freeeeedom-loving non-Muslim for this one.

You?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 12:00pm

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 11:48am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 10:53am:
Thanks FD, I think thats the third time you've proved to me that your answer to what other muslims besides me might or not think is to say "look at gandalf".

Do you have anything else? You know, something that doesn't involve projecting my alleged thoughts on to other musilms?

why on earth would muslims be doctrinally obliged to 'support' something they don't even believe happened under Islam? Is your only answer really "cause you did it"?


You are missing the point Gandalf. Denying genocide is not the same as opposing it. As to why Muslims do this, can you think of any Muslims who might be able to explain it to you?


You are missing the point that there is absolutely no logic in saying that all muslims who deny Muhammad committed genocide must still be doctrinally compelled to support genocide - for some mysterious reason that you won't explain other than the inane "look at gandalf".

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm
Because it is a question of historical fact Gandalf. If Muslims maintain that genocide is evil and that Muhammad would have been evil if he had committed genocide, then the only barrier to concluding Muhammad is evil is establishing a fact that nearly every Muslim on earth already considers to be established. This is probably why you still maintain support for genocide at the same time as denying it.

That, and a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.

Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad, by virtue of the fact that Muhammad wrote the Quran. None of them want to invite the conclusion that the Quran was merely another tool for Muhammad's evil.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Karnal on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm
Come come, G, you're obliged to support doctrines like killing Jews who do it Mardi Gras-style, paedophilia, wife-beating and squatting down to pee and playing with your dick afterwards.

Why wouldn't you support genocide?

Remember, FD lost Abu. You're the one example FD has of his favourite tinted caricature, the Muselman.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 2:50pm

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
Because it is a question of historical fact Gandalf.


Right, so now your answer has changed to "because it definitely happened" - which presumably comes with an implied assumption that no muslim seriously denies it, even when they say they do.

Can you confirm this where you stand FD - that the genocide by Muhammad is really a universally accepted fact amongst all muslims, even when they say otherwise? You do accept that there are plenty of muslims who do say otherwise right?


Quote:
If Muslims maintain that genocide is evil and that Muhammad would have been evil if he had committed genocide, then the only barrier to concluding Muhammad is evil is establishing a fact that nearly every Muslim on earth already considers to be established. This is probably why you still maintain support for genocide at the same time as denying it.
[/quote]

Lets just skim over the heroic number of "IFs" here that your claim depends upon, and focus on the most obvious logical fallacy: that committing an evil act necessarily makes one evil. This is such an obvious point that it shouldn't need elaborating. I'll therefore jump straight to your very predictable response which will probably goes along the lines of "there are limits to how much evil a good man could do before he must become evil himself - and genocide is surely one such limit". And so this is where your dishonesty about what actually happened serves its purpose. When we are talking about taking away innocent men, women and children to the gas chambers in their millions, for no other reason than belonging to a particular ethnicity or culture or religion, then yes, that is an actual genocide that could not be committed by anyone other than an evil person. But we both know that is nothing like what Muhammad is alleged to do. It was the most mundane, run-of-the-mill mass execution of a group of soldiers, that literally happens all the time in war. When you view in these terms, for what it actually was, instead of dishonestly using the deliberately emotive term "genocide" - you see how absurd and dishonest is the idea that anyone who tries to justify such an act is a "genocide supporter".

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 2:52pm

Quote:
a fact that nearly every Muslim on earth already considers to be established.


only nearly FD?

And what of these muslims who are not "nearly every muslim" then?

Is your final answer they too are compelled to support genocide because... gandalf?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 31st, 2019 at 2:56pm

Quote:
Right, so now your answer has changed to "because it definitely happened"


How do you go from "a question of historical fact" to "definitely happened"?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 3:16pm
Because you are not even bothering to consider those who don't believe it happened - and because literally your first sentence in response to a direct question about these muslims and on what logic they are compelled to believe was "Because it is a question of historical fact Gandalf." Uhuh - its a question of historical fact - unless its not, I guess.

You just continue on with your logical fallacies that are based on the obviously bunkum assumption that all muslims must believe it.

But anytime you want to actually address those muslims who don't believe it and why they are somehow still compelled to support genocide, feel free. Preferably something thats actually relevant, as opposed to simply saying "because.... gandalf".

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 31st, 2019 at 4:59pm

Quote:
Because you are not even bothering to consider those who don't believe it happened


That's what the entire post was about.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 5:52pm
This is the part of the thread where FD just gives up but still feels compelled to post something. Anything.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 31st, 2019 at 6:42pm
The thing is, what we know of contemporary Muslim thinking and behaviour and the example of Mohammed in that; and what we know of Muhamad's life - you can't put a massacre/genocide past him.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on May 31st, 2019 at 8:13pm

Frank wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 6:42pm:
The thing is, what we know of contemporary Muslim thinking and behaviour and the example of Mohammed in that; and what we know of Muhamad's life - you can't put a massacre/genocide past him.


Sounds like a good enough reason to me to state as unquestioned fact that every single muslim in the world supports genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on May 31st, 2019 at 8:44pm
Gandalf are you seriously arguing that this post is not about Muslims who deny the genocide?


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
Because it is a question of historical fact Gandalf. If Muslims maintain that genocide is evil and that Muhammad would have been evil if he had committed genocide, then the only barrier to concluding Muhammad is evil is establishing a fact that nearly every Muslim on earth already considers to be established. This is probably why you still maintain support for genocide at the same time as denying it.

That, and a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.

Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad, by virtue of the fact that Muhammad wrote the Quran. None of them want to invite the conclusion that the Quran was merely another tool for Muhammad's evil.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on May 31st, 2019 at 8:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 8:13pm:

Frank wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 6:42pm:
The thing is, what we know of contemporary Muslim thinking and behaviour and the example of Mohammed in that; and what we know of Muhamad's life - you can't put a massacre/genocide past him.


Sounds like a good enough reason to me to state as unquestioned fact that every single muslim in the world supports genocide.

If you think Mohammed was tops, then yes.

You cannot be sane and at the same time regard Mohammed as the best of men. And if you regard him as the best of men then no insanity, no cruelty, no irrationality can be put past you.





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 8:42am

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Gandalf are you seriously arguing that this post is not about Muslims who deny the genocide?


Sure it is FD - a whole bunch of heroic assumptions and logical leaps about what muslim genocide-deniers must believe - because FD said so.

It still pretty much all comes down to "even genocide-denying muslims support genocide because... gandalf"


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.


Do us all a favour FD, and look up the word genocide and try and comprehend what it actually means. If executing a few ringleaders now counts as genocide, then the word really has no meaning. Geez and I thought muslims were bad at abusing the word!

Dismissing the difference between identifying the key ringleaders and executing them and indiscriminately killing the entire male population of a tribe as merely an "arbitrary distinction" is surely a new low for you.

Would you like to try a response that actually considers those muslims who deny the massacre happened - as opposed to merely shoving words down their throat and insisting they don't really mean what they say?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 8:42am:

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Gandalf are you seriously arguing that this post is not about Muslims who deny the genocide?


Sure it is FD - a whole bunch of heroic assumptions and logical leaps about what muslim genocide-deniers must believe - because FD said so.

It still pretty much all comes down to "even genocide-denying muslims support genocide because... gandalf"


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.


Do us all a favour FD, and look up the word genocide and try and comprehend what it actually means. If executing a few ringleaders now counts as genocide, then the word really has no meaning. Geez and I thought muslims were bad at abusing the word!

Dismissing the difference between identifying the key ringleaders and executing them and indiscriminately killing the entire male population of a tribe as merely an "arbitrary distinction" is surely a new low for you.

Would you like to try a response that actually considers those muslims who deny the massacre happened - as opposed to merely shoving words down their throat and insisting they don't really mean what they say?


Makes sense to me. Moh had the leaders of an uprising executed.

As opposed to Moh "killed 800 Jews in a day" or Moh tried to "genocide" the Jewish race.

Either way, it's all 1300 year old hearsay. So why would Muslims universally believe Moh committed genocide, and thus - as a Mindless Collective, no individuality whatsoever, so unfair - call for genocide today?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 11:51am

Karnal wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 8:42am:

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Gandalf are you seriously arguing that this post is not about Muslims who deny the genocide?


Sure it is FD - a whole bunch of heroic assumptions and logical leaps about what muslim genocide-deniers must believe - because FD said so.

It still pretty much all comes down to "even genocide-denying muslims support genocide because... gandalf"


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.


Do us all a favour FD, and look up the word genocide and try and comprehend what it actually means. If executing a few ringleaders now counts as genocide, then the word really has no meaning. Geez and I thought muslims were bad at abusing the word!

Dismissing the difference between identifying the key ringleaders and executing them and indiscriminately killing the entire male population of a tribe as merely an "arbitrary distinction" is surely a new low for you.

Would you like to try a response that actually considers those muslims who deny the massacre happened - as opposed to merely shoving words down their throat and insisting they don't really mean what they say?


Makes sense to me. Moh had the leaders of an uprising executed.

As opposed to Moh "killed 800 Jews in a day" or Moh tried to "genocide" the Jewish race.

Either way, it's all 1300 year old hearsay. So why would Muslims universally believe Moh committed genocide, and thus - as a Mindless Collective, no individuality whatsoever, so unfair - call for genocide today?


But it gets even better than that K. Ask FD about how muslims can claim to profess peace and harmony in view of what FD assures is the black and white command to kill all infidels in chapter 9 - and he'll explain that muslims can be "morally flexible" in all sorts of ways.

I asked him why they can have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine.

He hasn't answered yet.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 12:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 11:51am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 10:46am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 8:42am:

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Gandalf are you seriously arguing that this post is not about Muslims who deny the genocide?


Sure it is FD - a whole bunch of heroic assumptions and logical leaps about what muslim genocide-deniers must believe - because FD said so.

It still pretty much all comes down to "even genocide-denying muslims support genocide because... gandalf"


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.


Do us all a favour FD, and look up the word genocide and try and comprehend what it actually means. If executing a few ringleaders now counts as genocide, then the word really has no meaning. Geez and I thought muslims were bad at abusing the word!

Dismissing the difference between identifying the key ringleaders and executing them and indiscriminately killing the entire male population of a tribe as merely an "arbitrary distinction" is surely a new low for you.

Would you like to try a response that actually considers those muslims who deny the massacre happened - as opposed to merely shoving words down their throat and insisting they don't really mean what they say?


Makes sense to me. Moh had the leaders of an uprising executed.

As opposed to Moh "killed 800 Jews in a day" or Moh tried to "genocide" the Jewish race.

Either way, it's all 1300 year old hearsay. So why would Muslims universally believe Moh committed genocide, and thus - as a Mindless Collective, no individuality whatsoever, so unfair - call for genocide today?


But it gets even better than that K. Ask FD about how muslims can claim to profess peace and harmony in view of what FD assures is the black and white command to kill all infidels in chapter 9 - and he'll explain that muslims can be "morally flexible" in all sorts of ways.

I asked him why they can have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine.

He hasn't answered yet.


No worries, G, he probably missed it. Let's try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 1:25pm

Quote:
Sure it is FD - a whole bunch of heroic assumptions and logical leaps about what muslim genocide-deniers must believe - because FD said so.


So because you didn't like my answer, you close your eyes and complain instead that I did not answer?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 2:02pm
FD is there anything in that answer that is something other than

a) assumptions of what muslims must think based not on what actual muslims say, but on how FD interprets Islam
b) because gandalf said it

?

Is it not true that when you hear a muslim say "I don't support genocide" your response must necessarily involve telling that muslim that he does not mean what he says? Its either that or concede that your threat title is complete BS. No?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 2:18pm
We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 2:22pm

freediver wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 1:25pm:
So because you didn't like my answer, you close your eyes and complain instead that I did not answer?


We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 3:35pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 2:02pm:
FD is there anything in that answer that is something other than

a) assumptions of what muslims must think based not on what actual muslims say, but on how FD interprets Islam
b) because gandalf said it

?

Is it not true that when you hear a muslim say "I don't support genocide" your response must necessarily involve telling that muslim that he does not mean what he says? Its either that or concede that your threat title is complete BS. No?


Are you conceding that I considered those who don't believe it happened?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 4:22pm

freediver wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 1:25pm:
So because you didn't like my answer, you close your eyes and complain instead that I did not answer?


And again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 7th, 2019 at 12:24pm

freediver wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 3:35pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 2:02pm:
FD is there anything in that answer that is something other than

a) assumptions of what muslims must think based not on what actual muslims say, but on how FD interprets Islam
b) because gandalf said it

?

Is it not true that when you hear a muslim say "I don't support genocide" your response must necessarily involve telling that muslim that he does not mean what he says? Its either that or concede that your threat title is complete BS. No?


Are you conceding that I considered those who don't believe it happened?


You "considered" that they must be either thinking what gandalf thinks, or the thoughts that FD imposes on them. And any muslim you encounter who declares they do not support genocide, you will insist that they don't mean what they say.

Since you are not disputing this, I'll "concede" this as a statement of fact.

And I think K's question is valid and very relevant too. But by all means keep deflecting.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 7th, 2019 at 12:28pm
So when are you going to stop complaining that I haven't answered your questions after posting several paragraphs in direct response?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 7th, 2019 at 12:48pm
So final answer, is that muslims who deny the genocide really do support genocide because 'gandalf', and they definitely don't mean what they say?

If your "answer" is nothing more than saying that genocide denying muslims have no agency to think for themselves and only "think" either what gandalf thinks, or whatever thoughts FD imposes on them - then I'm more than happy to "concede" that I greatly overestimated your ability to answer with something other than bigoted and offensive tropes that reduce the muslim population to a mindless collective.

Or did you have something else?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 7th, 2019 at 1:55pm

freediver wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 12:28pm:
So when are you going to stop complaining that I haven't answered your questions after posting several paragraphs in direct response?


G responded because you asked him more questions, FD. You haven't provided any response.

We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 12:48pm:
So final answer, is that muslims who deny the genocide really do support genocide because 'gandalf', and they definitely don't mean what they say?

If your "answer" is nothing more than saying that genocide denying muslims have no agency to think for themselves and only "think" either what gandalf thinks, or whatever thoughts FD imposes on them - then I'm more than happy to "concede" that I greatly overestimated your ability to answer with something other than bigoted and offensive tropes that reduce the muslim population to a mindless collective.

Or did you have something else?


Yes I have something else. How long are you going to keep playing this game of pretending I don't answer your questions whenever you don't like the response, then pretending it didn't happen? It's getting a little tedious don't you think?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:33pm

freediver wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:26pm:
Yes I have something else


So what is it FD? Don't leave me hanging

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:40pm
How long are you going to keep playing this game of pretending I don't answer your questions whenever you don't like the response, then pretending it didn't happen? It's getting a little tedious don't you think?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:50pm

freediver wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:40pm:
How long are you going to keep playing this game of pretending I don't answer your questions whenever you don't like the response, then pretending it didn't happen? It's getting a little tedious don't you think?


We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 7th, 2019 at 10:24pm

freediver wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:40pm:
How long are you going to keep playing this game of pretending I don't answer your questions whenever you don't like the response, then pretending it didn't happen? It's getting a little tedious don't you think?


Depends FD, how long are you going to keep pretending you gave an answer that was something other than 'because gandalf' and 'they think what I deem fit for them to think'?

And how could you come up with any answer that doesn't involve concluding that muslims don't mean what they say? For example how do you explain when a muslim says "I don't support genocide" - without even bothering to try and understand him other than the inane "cause gandalf"?

FD do you agree you have some hide attacking me as the one that insists muslims don't mean what they say?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 7th, 2019 at 11:52pm
I asked first, Polite. Actually, it was your question.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran, but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?
[/quote]

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 8th, 2019 at 12:04pm
Sadly abu, I suspect FD has a good couple more pages of ducking and weaving left in him.

Perhaps it will help if we both asked him:

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 8th, 2019 at 1:02pm
I agree.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 8th, 2019 at 1:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 10:24pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 5:40pm:
How long are you going to keep playing this game of pretending I don't answer your questions whenever you don't like the response, then pretending it didn't happen? It's getting a little tedious don't you think?


Depends FD, how long are you going to keep pretending you gave an answer that was something other than 'because gandalf' and 'they think what I deem fit for them to think'?

And how could you come up with any answer that doesn't involve concluding that muslims don't mean what they say? For example how do you explain when a muslim says "I don't support genocide" - without even bothering to try and understand him other than the inane "cause gandalf"?

FD do you agree you have some hide attacking me as the one that insists muslims don't mean what they say?


I gave at least two simple answers I can think of that you are either ignoring or misrepresenting.

You said you do not support genocide. Then you went on to support genocide. Seeing as you have not come up with any other examples of Muslims who oppose genocide, and so have not asked the question, I cannot guess what my answer might be. Except of course for your example of the 3 year old 'Muslim', and you know what my response was there, and it was not what you suggest.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 8th, 2019 at 1:57pm
He's back.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some heresay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 8th, 2019 at 3:21pm

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 1:49pm:
You said you do not support genocide. Then you went on to support genocide.


Good FD, this is called the "because gandalf said it" argument. I hope you're taking note.

It doesn't seem you have anything else. Shame.


freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 1:49pm:
Seeing as you have not come up with any other examples of Muslims who oppose genocide


Good show FD. All muslims support genocide - until proven otherwise. Sound fair no?

Oh, but just one more little thing... you still haven't actually explained why that is a reasonable or logical starting point in relation to those muslims who reject the idea that Muhammad can never be criticised for the things he did as a mortal man. You still haven't explained why it must logically follow that the Quran command that he is a "good example" necessarily means absolutely everything he did must be "supported". And you still haven't addressed the logical inconsistency of accepting that muslims can be "morally flexible" on certain things like rejecting the alleged command to slaughter all mushrikin "wherever ye find them" (and actually advocate a peaceful and tolerant Islam) - but can never ever have any flexibility on a matter of heresay about the Prophet that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 8th, 2019 at 3:50pm

Quote:
Good show FD. All muslims support genocide - until proven otherwise. Sound fair no?


Not to the victims of Islam's genocide.


Quote:
Oh, but just one more little thing... you still haven't actually explained why that is a reasonable or logical starting point in relation to those muslims who reject the idea that Muhammad can never be criticised for the things he did as a mortal man.


I never claimed Muslims are reasonable and logical.

How soon till you next insist I did not answer a question because you don't like my response Gandalf?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:35pm

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 3:50pm:
I never claimed Muslims are reasonable and logical.


Yet you claim they all follow logic - the logic that they are bound to support genocide because Muhammad did it, and because the Quran tells them Muhammad is the best [sic] example to follow. If you never thought muslims were logical, then what is left of your argument FD? When you say " they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam" - what other reason is there that this is so other than they are acting "logically"? Why on earth would you think that "illogical" muslims would all think in unison in the one perfectly predictable way? Isn't the point of being illogical that its impossible to predict how they would think given they are not following any logical flow? Yet somehow you are sure of how all these illogical people think. And you explain it by the logic you assume they follow no less!

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:47pm

Quote:
Yet you claim they all follow logic - the logic that they are bound to support genocide because Muhammad did it


It's not logic, it's just what Muslims do.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:08pm

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 4:47pm:
It's not logic it's just what Muslims do


The argument you set out in the OP is called logic FD. It is what you might term 'the logic of a muslim's belief - according to FD'. You seem to keep forgetting it, so here it is again:


Quote:
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.


The giveaway is the use of the words "so" before each time you assert what muslims do.

Do you think it makes sense to assert that a bunch of illogical people hold a particular thought process (that leads them to support genocide - as described in your logic above) that is entirely predictable and consistent?

If, as you nonsensically claim now, that there is no logic to why muslims support genocide, and that its merely "what they do", wouldn't your argument essentially be "all muslims support genocide - and I have no idea why"?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:36pm
Refusing to let the fact that Muhammad committed genocide reflect badly on their religion is not logical Gandalf. They do it because their religion compels them to, not because they are engaging in an exercise of logic.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:55pm
We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some hearsay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Too scared to say?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by John Smith on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:44pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:55pm:
We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some hearsay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Too scared to say?


taquiya

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:48pm

John Smith wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:55pm:
We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some hearsay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Too scared to say?


taquiya


Good answer, JS, thanks for that.

What do you think, FD? Is JS right?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 12:57pm

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
Refusing to let the fact that Muhammad committed genocide reflect badly on their religion is not logical Gandalf. They do it because their religion compels them to, not because they are engaging in an exercise of logic.


There religion compels them to because of the logic you set out in the OP FD: Quran says x, so muslims musn't do y, and so "all muslims" must do z. Thats called logic. The giveaway is in the use of the words "so" between all the (logical) steps. If it was not logical, you couldn't predict that they do it. Illogical is fundamentally unpredictable. An "illogical" muslim, in your terms, would be one who doesn't think they need to support genocide - despite their belief in the Quran and reverence of Muhammad as the 'best' [sic] example of mankind.

I'm surprised you have so little understanding of the concept of logic FD.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 1:04pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:55pm:
We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some hearsay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Too scared to say?


We're up to 2 pages and counting. How's my prediction of 10 pages of deflection looking?

FD at least do me a favour and never again whinge about other people's alleged deflecting and ignoring questions ok?

taquiya


Good answer, JS, thanks for that.

What do you think, FD? Is JS right?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 1:04pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:55pm:
We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some hearsay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Too scared to say?


taquiya


Good answer, JS, thanks for that.

What do you think, FD? Is JS right?


We're up to 2 pages and counting. How's my prediction of 10 pages of deflection looking?

FD at least do me a favour and never again whinge about other people's alleged deflecting and ignoring questions ok?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2019 at 1:06pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 12:57pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
Refusing to let the fact that Muhammad committed genocide reflect badly on their religion is not logical Gandalf. They do it because their religion compels them to, not because they are engaging in an exercise of logic.


There religion compels them to because of the logic you set out in the OP FD: Quran says x, so muslims musn't do y, and so "all muslims" must do z. Thats called logic. The giveaway is in the use of the words "so" between all the (logical) steps. If it was not logical, you couldn't predict that they do it. Illogical is fundamentally unpredictable. An "illogical" muslim, in your terms, would be one who doesn't think they need to support genocide - despite their belief in the Quran and reverence of Muhammad as the 'best' [sic] example of mankind.

I'm surprised you have so little understanding of the concept of logic FD.


Have you ever met one of these "illogical Muslims"?

We are up to 26 pages in now, and you are still trying to BS your way out of this, when you could prove me wrong so easily, if I was wrong.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 16th, 2019 at 1:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 1:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:48pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 9:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:55pm:
We'll try again.

FD, why can the Muselman have that sort of flexibility in relation to something thats supposedly in the Quran [ie to promote a peaceful and tolerant Islam], but not be in the least bit flexible when it comes to supporting some hearsay about Muhammad thats not even part of Islamic doctrine?

Too scared to say?


taquiya


Good answer, JS, thanks for that.

What do you think, FD? Is JS right?


We're up to 2 pages and counting. How's my prediction of 10 pages of deflection looking?

FD at least do me a favour and never again whinge about other people's alleged deflecting and ignoring questions ok?


FD?

G asked you a question, dear.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 1:50pm

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 1:06pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 12:57pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
Refusing to let the fact that Muhammad committed genocide reflect badly on their religion is not logical Gandalf. They do it because their religion compels them to, not because they are engaging in an exercise of logic.


There religion compels them to because of the logic you set out in the OP FD: Quran says x, so muslims musn't do y, and so "all muslims" must do z. Thats called logic. The giveaway is in the use of the words "so" between all the (logical) steps. If it was not logical, you couldn't predict that they do it. Illogical is fundamentally unpredictable. An "illogical" muslim, in your terms, would be one who doesn't think they need to support genocide - despite their belief in the Quran and reverence of Muhammad as the 'best' [sic] example of mankind.

I'm surprised you have so little understanding of the concept of logic FD.


Have you ever met one of these "illogical Muslims"?

We are up to 26 pages in now, and you are still trying to BS your way out of this, when you could prove me wrong so easily, if I was wrong.


FD why is it you feel so compelled to reply, yet say so little of worth?

You are wrong by default because your "logic" in the OP (which you now hillariously think somehow isn't logic) is such BS - as has been demonstrated ad-infinitum.

For example you can't even explain why some muslims can be "morally flexible" regarding what you consider a clear command in the Quran, but never ever regarding a matter of heresay about Muhammad - that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine. You've been ducking and weaving from this question for at least 2 pages now. I wonder why?


freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 1:06pm:
when you could prove me wrong so easily, if I was wrong.


I don't need to prove negatives FD.

You came up with the most utterly laughable claim that all muslims support genocide - without a shred of evidence except to quote what I said (and apparently thats good enough for what 1.5 billion other people think). The rest is based solely on laughable logic - that you now hillariously think is not logic.

As I keep saying, had you said "it makes sense for muslims to support genocide" or something along those lines, we wouldn't be up to 26 pages of you flailing around like an incoherent drunk, absurdly thinking you are right by default until I prove a negative.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2019 at 4:27pm

Quote:
For example you can't even explain why some muslims can be "morally flexible" regarding what you consider a clear command in the Quran, but never ever regarding a matter of heresay about Muhammad - that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine. You've been ducking and weaving from this question for at least 2 pages now. I wonder why?


You are doing it again Gandalf. I explained why. You just didn't like my answer.


Quote:
I don't need to prove negatives FD.


That's what you have been demanding me to do Gandalf. For you it would be a case of proving a positive. Something comparatively simple to do.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 9:56pm

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 4:27pm:
You are doing it again Gandalf. I explained why.


Nope. You didn't. You are confused about which of the many questions you haven't answered. The only part of my critique you "addressed" (using the term most generously), was the contention that not all muslims believe the genocide happened. And that amounted entirely to the completely inane kindergarten non-answer "because... gandalf". You have never addressed the glaring inconsistency of maintaining that muslims can have "moral flexibility" about chapter 9 which enables them to believe in a peaceful and tolerant Islam - but can never have any flexibility about a matter of hearsay about the prophet that is not even part of Islamic doctrine (unlike chapter 9). But if and when you do, I imagine it will be another inane "because... gandalf" retort.


freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 4:27pm:
That's what you have been demanding me to do Gandalf. For you it would be a case of proving a positive. Something comparatively simple to do.


Your flailing around for 26 pages has been a classic case of the "argument from ignorance" or "argument from incredulity" fallacy. You cannot fathom how muslims could not support genocide, and you articulate this through the logic you present in the OP. You then conclude that because you see no evidence of muslims rejecting/renouncing genocide - or more accurately, because you cannot comprehend *HOW* muslims could possibly reject/renounce genocide, this means that therefore all muslims, every single man woman and child from all corners of the globe, must support it.

This is your premise, and you spend the next 26 pages acting out this logical fallacy - saying that it is true by default (thread title), and remains true until proven otherwise. This is what I mean by you demanding I 'prove a negative' -your contention that it is true until I disprove it - and that it is incumbent upon me to provide that 'disproof' before your claim can be considered false. Whereas in reality, the opposite is true. Without a shred of evidence that 1.5 billion people think like a mindless collective on this one point of hearsay, your claim in the thread title is wrong by default, until such time as you can provide evidence that this is they way "all muslims" (not 1, or 5, but 1.5 billion) think. Which you obviously can't.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2019 at 10:05pm

Quote:
Nope. You didn't. You are confused about which of the many questions you haven't answered. The only part of my critique you "addressed" (using the term most generously), was the contention that not all muslims believe the genocide happened.


Wrong. I wrote a lengthy response the last time you asked the same thing.

Like I said, you are doing it again. You were wrong the last time we went round this circle, though you would not admit it, even though we went round it a few times. And you are wrong again.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:12pm

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 10:05pm:

Quote:
Nope. You didn't. You are confused about which of the many questions you haven't answered. The only part of my critique you "addressed" (using the term most generously), was the contention that not all muslims believe the genocide happened.


Wrong. I wrote a lengthy response the last time you asked the same thing.

Like I said, you are doing it again. You were wrong the last time we went round this circle, though you would not admit it, even though we went round it a few times. And you are wrong again.


You have an interesting interpretation of "lengthy response" FD - you haven't written any response longer than 2 lines since I last asked you - which was reply# 364 if you really want to be pedantic about it. Was the answer "because all those muslims think like gandalf"? Is it ok if I call that the "mindless collective" argument?

Is your overall argument still "All muslims support genocide - until otherwise proven"? And are you still maintaining that is definitely not a "negative proof" argument?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:47pm
Before we go round the circle once more Gandalf, will you concede you were wrong the last time you did this?


polite_gandalf wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 3:16pm:
Because you are not even bothering to consider those who don't believe it happened


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:50pm
No I was not wrong FD - you "considered" them by explaining that they do nothing but think exactly like gandalf - which is not really considering them at all (as real humans with agency). Its why I call it the "mindless collective" argument - or in other words a non-argument.

Do you still consider a two line quip a "lengthy response"? Or did you not actually mean the actual last time I asked you?

Its late FD, get some sleep and put some more thought into your posts tomorrow.

You don't have to reply just for the sake of replying - while saying nothing at all.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 3:16pm:
Because you are not even bothering to consider those who don't believe it happened



polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:50pm:
No I was not wrong FD - you "considered" them


Which of these statements is true Gandalf?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:54pm
Try quoting full sentences FD if you are going to honestly depict what I actually say.

I'll give you a hint: when I say "considered" in inverted commas, its a bit of a giveaway that its not really "considering" at all. Or you could just quote the words in the sentence that you ommitted straight after - that literally say exactly that.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:56pm
And here are some rpevious examples of you making the same idiotic complaint about the same point:


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 10:03am:
Here is the last time, only two days ago, where you demanded I repeat myself:


freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 8:51am:
Here is the most recent example, from the previous page of this thread:


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:

Quote:
Will you at least acknowledge that there are some muslims around who don't believe the massacre happened - and who also don't subscribe to the "in any case they were a mindless collective, so genocide is still awesome" narrative that you ascribe to me?


You eventually got around to denying the massacre happened, once you realised supporting genocide was not a good look. But you still maintained your support for genocide.


And here you are, two days later, in your second post in this thread after I made that one, insisting I never addressed it:


polite_gandalf wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:13am:
I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute. And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.

For some reason you never actually addressed that point. I expect your response would have been of the "they don't really mean what they say" variety, which of course, naturally is *NOT* doing any such thing as denying them agency to think for themselves, heaven forbid.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:56pm
Oh look FD still swooping in for a "last word" reply that he hasn't thought about.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:54pm:
Try quoting full sentences FD if you are going to honestly depict what I actually say.

I'll give you a hint: when I say "considered" in inverted commas, its a bit of a giveaway that its not really "considering" at all. Or you could just quote the words in the sentence that you ommitted straight after - that literally say exactly that.


And here is the last time I explained to you that I have already explained it to you:


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Gandalf are you seriously arguing that this post is not about Muslims who deny the genocide?


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
Because it is a question of historical fact Gandalf. If Muslims maintain that genocide is evil and that Muhammad would have been evil if he had committed genocide, then the only barrier to concluding Muhammad is evil is establishing a fact that nearly every Muslim on earth already considers to be established. This is probably why you still maintain support for genocide at the same time as denying it.

That, and a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.

Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad, by virtue of the fact that Muhammad wrote the Quran. None of them want to invite the conclusion that the Quran was merely another tool for Muhammad's evil.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:59pm

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:56pm:
And here are some rpevious examples of you making the same idiotic complaint about the same point:


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 10:03am:
Here is the last time, only two days ago, where you demanded I repeat myself:


freediver wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 8:51am:
Here is the most recent example, from the previous page of this thread:


freediver wrote on May 22nd, 2019 at 7:38pm:

Quote:
Will you at least acknowledge that there are some muslims around who don't believe the massacre happened - and who also don't subscribe to the "in any case they were a mindless collective, so genocide is still awesome" narrative that you ascribe to me?


You eventually got around to denying the massacre happened, once you realised supporting genocide was not a good look. But you still maintained your support for genocide.


And here you are, two days later, in your second post in this thread after I made that one, insisting I never addressed it:


polite_gandalf wrote on May 24th, 2019 at 10:13am:
I pointed out the existence of muslims who reject the alleged massacre even happened - a fact that you didn't even bother to try and refute. And so by that measure alone, your claim is at a stroke disproven, as is the flawed logical steps that led to the claim.

For some reason you never actually addressed that point. I expect your response would have been of the "they don't really mean what they say" variety, which of course, naturally is *NOT* doing any such thing as denying them agency to think for themselves, heaven forbid.


FD is this your way of conceding that you didn't actually provide a "lengthy response" to the last time I asked you about the inconsistency of being morally flexible about the quran but not about hearsay about Muhammad?

Or are you just flailing about as usual?

Why not go one step further and concede that you didn't respond to it at all?

Or you can just keep deflecting, whatever suits.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 17th, 2019 at 12:08am

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:54pm:
Try quoting full sentences FD if you are going to honestly depict what I actually say.

I'll give you a hint: when I say "considered" in inverted commas, its a bit of a giveaway that its not really "considering" at all. Or you could just quote the words in the sentence that you ommitted straight after - that literally say exactly that.


And here is the last time I explained to you that I have already explained it to you:


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Gandalf are you seriously arguing that this post is not about Muslims who deny the genocide?


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
Because it is a question of historical fact Gandalf. If Muslims maintain that genocide is evil and that Muhammad would have been evil if he had committed genocide, then the only barrier to concluding Muhammad is evil is establishing a fact that nearly every Muslim on earth already considers to be established. This is probably why you still maintain support for genocide at the same time as denying it.

That, and a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.

Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad, by virtue of the fact that Muhammad wrote the Quran. None of them want to invite the conclusion that the Quran was merely another tool for Muhammad's evil.


umm.. thats nothing to do with my question about your inconsistency about morally flexible muslims FD.

You came up with the idea that muslims can be morally flexible about a clear (in your opinion) Quranic command that is directly related to Islamic law - yet still maintain that no muslim on earth could possibly have any moral flexibility on a matter of hearsay that isn't even related to Islamic law.

But by all means keep "answering" by referencing a completely irrelevant 3 week old discussion on the thought processes of muslim genocide deniers.

Or you could answer the actual question - which incidentally could easily involve genocide believers.


Quote:
Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad


So are you saying they could be partly aloof from Muhammad - say, on a matter of hearsay about an aspect of his political rule that is not even part of actual Islamic law?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jun 17th, 2019 at 8:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17th, 2019 at 12:08am:

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2019 at 11:54pm:
Try quoting full sentences FD if you are going to honestly depict what I actually say.

I'll give you a hint: when I say "considered" in inverted commas, its a bit of a giveaway that its not really "considering" at all. Or you could just quote the words in the sentence that you ommitted straight after - that literally say exactly that.


And here is the last time I explained to you that I have already explained it to you:


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Gandalf are you seriously arguing that this post is not about Muslims who deny the genocide?


freediver wrote on May 31st, 2019 at 2:00pm:
Because it is a question of historical fact Gandalf. If Muslims maintain that genocide is evil and that Muhammad would have been evil if he had committed genocide, then the only barrier to concluding Muhammad is evil is establishing a fact that nearly every Muslim on earth already considers to be established. This is probably why you still maintain support for genocide at the same time as denying it.

That, and a lot of the genocide denial, such as yours, merely boils down to playing down the number of Jews slaughtered by Muhammad, in which case the difference between Muhammad and evil is merely an arbitrary distinction on how many Jews you have to slaughter before it becomes genocide.

Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad, by virtue of the fact that Muhammad wrote the Quran. None of them want to invite the conclusion that the Quran was merely another tool for Muhammad's evil.


umm.. thats nothing to do with my question about your inconsistency about morally flexible muslims FD.

You came up with the idea that muslims can be morally flexible about a clear (in your opinion) Quranic command that is directly related to Islamic law - yet still maintain that no muslim on earth could possibly have any moral flexibility on a matter of hearsay that isn't even related to Islamic law.

But by all means keep "answering" by referencing a completely irrelevant 3 week old discussion on the thought processes of muslim genocide deniers.

Or you could answer the actual question - which incidentally could easily involve genocide believers.


Quote:
Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad


So are you saying they could be partly aloof from Muhammad - say, on a matter of hearsay about an aspect of his political rule that is not even part of actual Islamic law?

You are the sworn enemies of Western civilisation. You shouldn't be allowed to migrate to the West. Your sole contribution is to undermine and repudiate the West. Islam has never been anything but the enemy of the West.

You personally are the enemy of the West, doubly as a convert. You converted BECAUSE of your resentment of the West even before you were a Muslim. Islam is a cosy home for your antagonism.
Same with all your co-religionists You cannot be a Muslim and pro-West.  Everything you say is forked-tongued and calculated to advance sharia and the kaliphate. You are ALL jihadists.








Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 17th, 2019 at 10:21pm

Frank wrote on Jun 17th, 2019 at 8:19pm:
You converted BECAUSE of your resentment of the West even before you were a Muslim. Islam is a cosy home for your antagonism.


It saddens me that you consider me so shallow.

Apparently all religion is to muslims is a crass vessel in which to play out petty temporal political vendettas and point scoring. Nothing spiritual about it.

To me, someone like that is the very antithesis of religious. Pretty much all religions are about freeing oneself from crass, shallow, temporal/earthly whims and desires.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 17th, 2019 at 10:46pm
Oh look FD's deflecting, ducking and weaving by creating yet more spin-off threads that no one else will read.

Of the umpteen number of questions you are ducking and weaving from, lets just randomly grab one of the most recent, shall we?


Quote:
Quote:
Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad


So are you saying they could be partly aloof from Muhammad - say, on a matter of hearsay about an aspect of his political rule that is not even part of actual Islamic law?


Or are you attempting some logic that says that if muslims are not "completely aloof" it somehow means they are completely beholden to, and must support every single thing he did - even when its a matter of hearsay that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine?

It should go without saying that if that is so, the obvious question is simply 'why'?

And feel free to include in your answer a reference to why muslims, 1,5 billion of them, can never ever be "morally flexible" on this matter of hearsay that is not part of Islamic doctrine, but can be flexible on the far more relevant commands in the actual Quran?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Jun 17th, 2019 at 11:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17th, 2019 at 10:21pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 17th, 2019 at 8:19pm:

You converted BECAUSE of your resentment of the West even before you were a Muslim. Islam is a cosy home for your antagonism.


It saddens me that you consider me so shallow.

Apparently all religion is to muslims is a crass vessel in which to play out petty temporal political vendettas and point scoring.

Nothing spiritual about it.

To me, someone like that is the very antithesis of religious.

Pretty much all religions are about freeing oneself from crass, shallow, temporal/earthly whims and desires.



Coz, misrepresenting your religion, ISLAM, to naive and uninformed non-moslems is a spiritual path ?

gandalf,      why is it so objectionable to you, to admit the real motives and methods of ISLAM ?

Are you arguing that ISLAM, promotes virtue in the world, and a spiritual path for all of its followers,
....through the auspices of deceit and misinforming the 'enemies' of ISLAM ?




IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT;
The most successful recruiting environment for ISLAM in the West, has been the most secure prisons, where the worst of hard-core offenders are 'housed'.

Q.
What is it, about ISLAM, that is so appealing to convicted murderers and rapists ?

WWW search


.


p.s.
gandalf,

Where is, that 'exemplar' moslem majority nation ?

Have you come up with a more worthy candidate than Indonesia yet ?





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 18th, 2019 at 12:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17th, 2019 at 10:46pm:
Oh look FD's deflecting, ducking and weaving by creating yet more spin-off threads that no one else will read.

Of the umpteen number of questions you are ducking and weaving from, lets just randomly grab one of the most recent, shall we?


Quote:
Quote:
Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad


So are you saying they could be partly aloof from Muhammad - say, on a matter of hearsay about an aspect of his political rule that is not even part of actual Islamic law?


Or are you attempting some logic that says that if muslims are not "completely aloof" it somehow means they are completely beholden to, and must support every single thing he did - even when its a matter of hearsay that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine?

It should go without saying that if that is so, the obvious question is simply 'why'?

And feel free to include in your answer a reference to why muslims, 1,5 billion of them, can never ever be "morally flexible" on this matter of hearsay that is not part of Islamic doctrine, but can be flexible on the far more relevant commands in the actual Quran?


I am yet to see a single example of a Muslim criticising anything Muhammad did.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 18th, 2019 at 12:49pm

freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 12:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17th, 2019 at 10:46pm:
Oh look FD's deflecting, ducking and weaving by creating yet more spin-off threads that no one else will read.

Of the umpteen number of questions you are ducking and weaving from, lets just randomly grab one of the most recent, shall we?


Quote:
Quote:
Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad


So are you saying they could be partly aloof from Muhammad - say, on a matter of hearsay about an aspect of his political rule that is not even part of actual Islamic law?


Or are you attempting some logic that says that if muslims are not "completely aloof" it somehow means they are completely beholden to, and must support every single thing he did - even when its a matter of hearsay that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine?

It should go without saying that if that is so, the obvious question is simply 'why'?

And feel free to include in your answer a reference to why muslims, 1,5 billion of them, can never ever be "morally flexible" on this matter of hearsay that is not part of Islamic doctrine, but can be flexible on the far more relevant commands in the actual Quran?


I am yet to see a single example of a Muslim criticising anything Muhammad did.


And therefore, ipso facto, all muslims support genocide - right?

Has it dawned on you yet that this is flawed logic FD?

This might be useful:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 18th, 2019 at 4:08pm
G, I'm curious. You've met a few Muselmen in your time. In your experience, do any of them support genocide?

Also, how many are practitioners of taqiyya?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 18th, 2019 at 6:06pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 4:08pm:
G, I'm curious. You've met a few Muselmen in your time. In your experience, do any of them support genocide?

Also, how many are practitioners of taqiyya?


None support genocide - therefore all of them are taqiyya practitioners - right?  :D

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 18th, 2019 at 6:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 6:06pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 4:08pm:
G, I'm curious. You've met a few Muselmen in your time. In your experience, do any of them support genocide?

Also, how many are practitioners of taqiyya?


None support genocide - therefore all of them are taqiyya practitioners - right?  :D


Thanks, G, just as I expected.

We'll deal with these people, don't you worry about that. We know you can't say anything for fear of being beheaded, as your evil book says.

If you need our help, could you give us some kind of sign?

FD's been flailing away since the white supremacists got him back in 2007, poor thing, but don't you worry.

We'll have him out in no time.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 18th, 2019 at 7:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 12:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 12:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17th, 2019 at 10:46pm:
Oh look FD's deflecting, ducking and weaving by creating yet more spin-off threads that no one else will read.

Of the umpteen number of questions you are ducking and weaving from, lets just randomly grab one of the most recent, shall we?


Quote:
Quote:
Muslims, even the Quran-only variety, can never be completely aloof from Muhammad


So are you saying they could be partly aloof from Muhammad - say, on a matter of hearsay about an aspect of his political rule that is not even part of actual Islamic law?


Or are you attempting some logic that says that if muslims are not "completely aloof" it somehow means they are completely beholden to, and must support every single thing he did - even when its a matter of hearsay that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine?

It should go without saying that if that is so, the obvious question is simply 'why'?

And feel free to include in your answer a reference to why muslims, 1,5 billion of them, can never ever be "morally flexible" on this matter of hearsay that is not part of Islamic doctrine, but can be flexible on the far more relevant commands in the actual Quran?


I am yet to see a single example of a Muslim criticising anything Muhammad did.


And therefore, ipso facto, all muslims support genocide - right?

Has it dawned on you yet that this is flawed logic FD?

This might be useful:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance


Your logic Gandalf. Not mine.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 18th, 2019 at 8:00pm
Your "argument" FD, not mine:


freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 12:39pm:
I am yet to see a single example of a Muslim criticising anything Muhammad did.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 18th, 2019 at 9:40pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 8:00pm:
Your "argument" FD, not mine:


freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 12:39pm:
I am yet to see a single example of a Muslim criticising anything Muhammad did.


It's an observation Gandalf.

You keep conjuring up these theoretical Muslims and demanding I address figments of your imagination.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Jun 19th, 2019 at 7:11am

Karnal wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 4:08pm:

G, I'm curious.

You've met a few Muselmen in your time. In your experience, do any of them support genocide?

Also, how many are practitioners of taqiyya?



Abu,

Killing the harbi isn't 'genocide', it is your duty, to Allah.



"Say: "...If ye think that ye are friends to Allah, to the exclusion of (other) men, then express your desire for Death, if ye are truthful!"  "
Koran 62.06


Koran 62.06 is admonishing the believer, that his only true love, in this life [if he is a true moslem], is to die, fighting in Allah's cause.



Just as is stated, in Koran 9.111     too.

Fight, and kill       ....for Allah's religion.

That is your duty as a believer.      ....and there is a 'bordello in the sky' for you, if you are killed.

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."
Koran 9.111



.



Yadda said....

Quote:

WWW search....
DIVISIONS OF THE WORLD, ACCORDING TO ISLAM,

Dar al-Islam = = the house of Islam, the house of Peace [those places where ISLAMIC law has authority].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-Islam#Dar_al-Islam

Dar al-Harb = = "house of war", those countries where ISLAMIC law does not have authority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-Islam#Dar_al-Harb




Harbi = = "one under a declaration of war", i.e. a disbeliever.




".........A harbi has no rights, not even the right to live."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbi

WWW search....
"A harbi has no rights, not even the right to live"



'ISLAM is peace.'       .....that is naked taqiyya, Abu, and every moslem, is a practitioner, in it.



.



ARGUMENT;
There is an identifiable group of people, who do, facilitate, enable, encourage and commit acts of terror,
as an endorsed cultural modality.


They are called moslems.

They are the followers, of ISLAM.




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Jun 19th, 2019 at 7:19am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 6:06pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 4:08pm:
G, I'm curious. You've met a few Muselmen in your time. In your experience, do any of them support genocide?

Also, how many are practitioners of taqiyya?


None support genocide - therefore all of them are taqiyya practitioners - right?  :D


.....also, the moslem,      has absolutely no obligation to [fight for] Allah's religion, either.

Eh, gandalf ?

/sarc off


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1543371381/404#404




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 19th, 2019 at 2:24pm

freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2019 at 9:40pm:
It's an observation Gandalf.


Right, so you're not even bothering to even pretend to present arguments then. Good to know.

Would you like to have a go at answering my question now?

If muslims can't be "completely aloof" from Muhammad - can they be "partly aloof" - for example on a matter of hearsay that isn't even part of Islamic doctrine?


Quote:
You keep conjuring up these theoretical Muslims and demanding I address figments of your imagination.


You conjured up "theoretical muslims" in your OP FD. The discussion since has necessarily been about 'theoretical muslims', because your entire argument is based on a theoretical attempt at deductive reasoning. You seem to have great difficulty understanding this basic point, so here it is again:


Quote:
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 19th, 2019 at 6:44pm

Quote:
You conjured up "theoretical muslims" in your OP FD.


Are you real Gandalf? What about every other Muslim who has posted about Muhammad's genocide here?

Even you acknowledge that your theoretical Muslims are at best a minority. Do you now want me to prove something that we both agree on?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 20th, 2019 at 12:58am

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
Are you real Gandalf? What about every other Muslim who has posted about Muhammad's genocide here?


The first paragraph asserts what every single muslim on earth thinks and why. You obviously can't demonstrate this (not even with bogus 'take my word for it' non-quotes of forum members), so it then becomes a deductive reasoning exercise, as I keep trying to explain to you: the Quran says x, so muslims must not do y, therefore all muslims do z. That is called "logic" FD, it is not an argument with any actual evidence - it cannot possibly be an argument with actual evidence given the restraints you yourself put on it ("*EVERY* muslim "DOES" (supports) this particular thing in reality"). Your fake paraphrasing of actual muslims that comes after that would not be supporting your argument even if they were accurate. Why? Because you are not arguing what 1 or 4 muslims support, you are arguing what every single muslim on earth supports.

So you are then left with 2 options for prosecuting your argument: either you argue that your fake quotes/'trust-me-he-said-it of 1 or 4 (whatever) muslims on a forum "proves" how 1.5 billion muslims from all corners of the globe think - exactly like a mindless collective, or you concede that your argument isn't actually one that is based on any hard evidence, but rather on logic that is based on your understanding of Islamic teachings.

You opened the debate with the latter - ie that paragraph of deductive reasoning I keep quoting for you. Faced with the inconvenient realization that your argument is presented as logic - yet because of how you state it, demands actual evidence, you have flailed about ever since with a ridiculous 'you must prove a negative' defence. Time and time again when confronted with your lack of evidence, your resposne has invariably been the incoherent taunt "you have failed to prove it isn't so!". And apparently even now you still don't understand how such a retort is logically fallacious.

Your attempts to deny that this is a logically fallacious "prove a negative" argument have been typically FD-quirky - the latest and probably most memorable was "oh its not an argument, merely an observation" [LOL]. Not to mention your laughable attempts to extract yourself from the very logic that your entire argument is based on, as presented in the OP - with the face-palming contention that its not really logic. That somehow the suspiciously deductive sounding "quran says x so muslims can't do y, therefore muslims must do z" - isn't an attempt at logic at all, rather its merely "what [all] muslims do" - with an explanation that just coincidentally happens to have a remarkable resemblence to attempted logic. By the way, are you still sticking to that claim? The claim that every single muslim around the globe inextricably do something for no logical reason - yet despite the completely lack of logic behind their universal single-mindedness, it is still somehow perfectly predictable? You never did get round to explaining to me how this 'non-logic' works exactly - apart from the inexplicable "its just what they do [all 1.5 billion of them to a man, woman and child]".

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 20th, 2019 at 12:59am

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
Even you acknowledge that your theoretical Muslims are at best a minority. Do you now want me to prove something that we both agree on?


Sorry FD, are you now conceding that you "agree" there is a small minority of muslims who actually don't support genocide?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 20th, 2019 at 1:11pm
Gandalf it occurs to me that if you ever did come across a Muslim who opposes genocide, you would probably denounce them as not a bona fide Muslim faster than me. Your attempts to bluster your way out of this are not a result of trying and failing to find one of your theoretical Muslims. Rather, it stems from a refusal to even try, and you refuse for the same reason that all Muslims support genocide. You would rather put up with me saying that all Muslims support genocide (after all, you get to play the victim card) than find one who opposes genocide and risk it undermining your faith in Muhammad.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 20th, 2019 at 1:44pm

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 1:11pm:
Gandalf it occurs to me that if you ever did come across a Muslim who opposes genocide, you would probably denounce them as not a bona fide Muslim faster than me. Your attempts to bluster your way out of this are not a result of trying and failing to find one of your theoretical Muslims. Rather, it stems from a refusal to even try, and you refuse for the same reason that all Muslims support genocide. You would rather put up with me saying that all Muslims support genocide (after all, you get to play the victim card) than find one who opposes genocide and risk it undermining your faith in Muhammad.


This is just completely unhinged FD. I literally wouldn't know where to start - so I don't think I'll bother. Is perfecting raving incoherence something you actively strive for? Anyway, feel free to have a go at any of the questions you keep avoiding. I'd just be happy with any of them at this stage to be honest.

Also, when you said...

"Even you acknowledge that your theoretical Muslims are at best a minority. Do you now want me to prove something that we both agree on?"

what exactly do you think we "both agree on"? - Is it that there really is a minority that don't actually support genocide? If so, that would be quite the revelation in light of your thread title - wouldn't you agree?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 20th, 2019 at 6:25pm

Quote:
what exactly do you think we "both agree on"?


That your theoretical Muslims are at best a minority.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 20th, 2019 at 7:24pm
My theoretical muslims don't support genocide FD - your argument necessarily dictates that no such muslims exist. Not a single one.

Now you are acknowledging that they could indeed exist after all? If so, your thread title is BS no?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jun 20th, 2019 at 7:29pm
No ACTUAL Muslim dares to criticise or contradict Mohammed.

So your theoretical Muslims do not exist. You are no different in your Islamic doctrines from the rest of the jihadis. You just like to play taqiya games. That's the extent of your theoretical Islam.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 20th, 2019 at 8:07pm
Thats a completely different notion to the one that says all muslims support genocide - even if, unfathomably, they don't even believe Muhammad committed genocide.

FD performs some mysterious and incomprehensible voodoo logic to conclude that because gandalf (apparently) still justifies genocide as a general principle, even though he doesn't himself believe Muhammad committed genocide, somehow that means all other genocide-deniers do the same. I begged and begged him to come up with a coherent reason for this other than "because thats what gandalf did", but nothing.

Not even FD can deny the existence of said genocide-denying muslims, which includes muslim scholars who have published papers refuting it. yet still he insists that every one of them must support genocide anyway. Why is this? FD won't say.

Can you think of a reason why, after presenting the logic for why muslims are compelled to support what they believe Muhammad actually did, why on earth would you then think its somehow logically consistent to assume that muslims are compelled to support what Muhammad didn't do? Do you have an explanation that actually considers what these muslims think - as opposed to merely parrotting inanely "because... gandalf"?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 7:24pm:
My theoretical muslims don't support genocide FD - your argument necessarily dictates that no such muslims exist. Not a single one.

Now you are acknowledging that they could indeed exist after all? If so, your thread title is BS no?


We both agree that they are at best a minority Gandalf. The reason I bring this up, seeing as you have forgotten, is because you demanded I prove that the ones who support genocide are a majority. But you already accept that. You are asking me to prove something we both agree on.

Not sure why this is so complicated.


Quote:
Thats a completely different notion to the one that says all muslims support genocide - even if, unfathomably, they don't even believe Muhammad committed genocide.


Why is it unfathomable? You deny the genocide at the same time as supporting it. You went to some length to justify this position. Can you not fathom your own BS?


Quote:
FD performs some mysterious and incomprehensible voodoo logic to conclude that because gandalf (apparently) still justifies genocide as a general principle, even though he doesn't himself believe Muhammad committed genocide, somehow that means all other genocide-deniers do the same.


This is your strawman Gandalf. I have asked you repeatedly to stop lying.


Quote:
I begged and begged him to come up with a coherent reason for this other than "because thats what gandalf did", but nothing.


Keep begging Gandalf, it won't make any difference.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 20th, 2019 at 10:50pm

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
We both agree that they are at best a minority Gandalf. The reason I bring this up, seeing as you have forgotten, is because you demanded I prove that the ones who support genocide are a majority. But you already accept that. You are asking me to prove something we both agree on.

Not sure why this is so complicated.


Its complicated by the fact that you are literally directly contradicting your own BS in the OP. Do you not comprehend that? Or did you actually mean to say "Most muslims support genocide" in the thread title?


freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
Why is it unfathomable? You deny the genocide at the same time as supporting it. You went to some length to justify this position. Can you not fathom your own BS?


What is unfathomable is a) why my personal thoughts on this entirely non-religious matter somehow applies to every other muslim who denies the genocide - without even giving them the courtesy to come up with their own reasoning and b) the fact that my reasoning for "supporting" the hypothetical concept of mass execution for that specific crime is *ENTIRELY* separate from my Islamic religious beliefs, and was argued by me on entirely secular/non-religious grounds. The fact that I don't even believe Muhammad went through with it - and conceivably refused to because he was morally opposed to such an act because of his religion - demonstrates that my 'support' for it is in spite of my religious beliefs, not because of it.


freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
Quote:
FD performs some mysterious and incomprehensible voodoo logic to conclude that because gandalf (apparently) still justifies genocide as a general principle, even though he doesn't himself believe Muhammad committed genocide, somehow that means all other genocide-deniers do the same.


This is your strawman Gandalf. I have asked you repeatedly to stop lying.


You literally just did it again FD. Here I'll even quote you again:


freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
Why is it unfathomable? You deny the genocide at the same time as supporting it. You went to some length to justify this position.


- keeping in mind this quote was a direct response to why FD's only answer for why genocide deniers still support genocide is "because....gandalf". Here we have exactly that - yet another "because...gandalf" response, straight from the horses mouth.

Rather than hysterically screeching 'liar' like a broken record every time I point out the bleeding obvious, how about you have a go at actually justifying why referring to my alleged justification of genocide is relevant to your insistence that other, non-gandalf muslims who deny Muhammad's genocide must also support genocide? Is that too much to ask FD?


freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
Quote:
I begged and begged him to come up with a coherent reason for this other than "because thats what gandalf did", but nothing.


Keep begging Gandalf, it won't make any difference.


I agree. 26 pages, and you have refused to come up with any argument about why genocide deniers must still support genocide thats not "because... gandalf", so I guess there's no reason to think the next 26 pages would be any different.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 21st, 2019 at 1:55am
G, you do realise FD's little quip about genocide is designed to get your knickers in a knot, don't you? He doesn't care if it's true. FD's just having a good old giggle.

You'll notice he hasn't brought up that Jew Moh tortured for his gold for a while, right?

Now why is that, FD? Cat got your tongue?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Faruk on Jun 21st, 2019 at 4:21am
The execution of some members of the Banu Qurayza does not count as genocide. The punishment by execution was not ordered by Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). It was taken from the book of the Jews as is just. Deuteronomy 20:12-14 reads:

"But if the city makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you."

Wouldn't this fit well to the thread about whether the bible is more violent than the Quran or not? Does it make you more or less comfortable than Surah at-tawba?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 21st, 2019 at 12:28pm

Quote:
Its complicated by the fact that you are literally directly contradicting your own BS in the OP. Do you not comprehend that? Or did you actually mean to say "Most muslims support genocide" in the thread title?


I am not contradicting myself Gandalf. You are struggling with your english comprehension skills again.


Quote:
What is unfathomable is a) why my personal thoughts on this entirely non-religious matter somehow applies to every other muslim who denies the genocide - without even giving them the courtesy to come up with their own reasoning


I suggested you provide an example. You failed.


Quote:
and b) the fact that my reasoning for "supporting" the hypothetical concept of mass execution for that specific crime is *ENTIRELY* separate from my Islamic religious beliefs


But you did just describe your own position on the matter as unfathomable.

And it is not entirely separate. You only support Muhamamd's genocide because you are a Muslim.


Quote:
The fact that I don't even believe Muhammad went through with it - and conceivably refused to because he was morally opposed to such an act because of his religion - demonstrates that my 'support' for it is in spite of my religious beliefs, not because of it.


Last I heard you were borrowing from the neo Nazi playbook and trying to revise down the numbers. Are is it more a case that the neo nazis are borrowing from the Muslim playbook?


Quote:
keeping in mind this quote was a direct response to why FD's only answer for why genocide deniers still support genocide is "because....gandalf"


My argument is that genocide denial is not the same thing as opposing genocide. You keep lying and misrepresenting this argument.


Quote:
Rather than hysterically screeching 'liar'


I asked you to stop lying Gandalf. Is that so difficult?


Quote:
how about you have a go at actually justifying why referring to my alleged justification of genocide is relevant


How many times do I need to explain it?


Quote:
The execution of some members of the Banu Qurayza does not count as genocide. The punishment by execution was not ordered by Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). It was taken from the book of the Jews as is just. Deuteronomy 20:12-14 reads:


According to the Muslims that have posted here, Muhammad was ordered to attack them by an angel while he was taking a bath. But I have heard this as an excuse before. Typical slippery Muslims, trying to blame the Jewish victims of Muhammad's genocide for their own demise. You'd make the Nazis proud.

How exactly is surrendering unconditionally without a fight a refusal to make peace?

And how is this anything but Muhammad himself trying to deny responsibility for his own actions as a leader? With a prophet like that, no wonder Muslims are so slippery and evasive.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 21st, 2019 at 12:32pm
Evasive, eh?

Let's try this. Would you like to answer a question, FD?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 21st, 2019 at 1:57pm

freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 12:28pm:
And it is not entirely separate. You only support Muhamamd's genocide because you are a Muslim.


what utter bullshit.


freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 12:28pm:
My argument is that genocide denial is not the same thing as opposing genocide. You keep lying and misrepresenting this argument.


It is not an argument that is any way relevant to your claim in the OP. Not even close. The only way it could be is if you make the most absurd logical leap and assert that genocide denial = genocide support, which you have previously denied, rigorously. Otherwise, it says nothing whatsoever in relation to why your contention that genocide-denying muslims must be supporters of genocide (as dictated by your thread title). So why do you say it? It is not incumbent upon me to prove that all muslim genocide deniers are not genocide supporters, but it is absolutely incumbent upon you to demonstrate why all muslim genocide deniers definitely are genocide supporters - you know, to actually substantiate the BS claim in your thread title. This is what I mean by you never "addressing" this point FD - just because you respond to my question, doesn't mean you say anything thats actually relevant to it. Simply throwing up red-herrings is not "addressing" anything - least of all the question being asked of you.


freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 12:28pm:
how about you have a go at actually justifying why referring to my alleged justification of genocide is relevant


How many times do I need to explain it?


Once would be just great.

How is my alleged justification of genocide in any way relevant to the assertion that all other muslim genocide-deniers must support genocide too? Its not too late FD, you can actually have a go at answering that if you like. If you can.

Or you could just mindlessly parrot "because... gandalf" again, and keep screeching hysterically about what a liar gandalf is and so unfair... and lecture me about all the wonderful answers you've already provided, while never actually referencing any of them etc... its up to you I suppose. I mean you've been doing that for 26 pages, why stop now I guess  :-/


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Secret Wars on Jun 21st, 2019 at 6:16pm
Islam has the best of both worlds, Muslims who commit violence and Muslims who support violence by saying “I am peaceful but I cannot control my brothers so best you don’t diss Islam” and from that, the threat of violence and the support of violence, the world has to tip toe around the sensibilities of a religion, and only because of its propensity to violence if it feels confronted or criticised.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jun 21st, 2019 at 6:25pm

freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 12:28pm:
And how is this anything but Muhammad himself trying to deny responsibility for his own actions as a leader? With a prophet like that, no wonder Muslims are so slippery and evasive.



The heart of the matter and your new (and eternal, final, unchangeable) signature, gandalf.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 21st, 2019 at 6:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 1:57pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 12:28pm:
And it is not entirely separate. You only support Muhamamd's genocide because you are a Muslim.


what utter bullshit.


Are you seriously suggesting you would be on here advocating the genocide of Jews if you were not a Muslim?

Is it because you were a Nazi before you were a Muslim?


Quote:
It is not an argument that is any way relevant to your claim in the OP. Not even close.


It is relevant to the extent that it demonstrates that your observation that some Muslims deny genocide is irrelevant to the OP.


Quote:
The only way it could be is if you make the most absurd logical leap and assert that genocide denial = genocide support


You are very confused Gandalf. If you for example claimed that some Muslims eat cornflakes for breakfast, and that this proves that they oppose genocide, there would not suddenly be an onus on me, as you suggest, to prove that all Muslims who eat cornflakes for breakfast support genocide. I would merely have to show that it is irrelevant, by way of a few examples of Muslims such as yourself who support genocide.


Quote:
Otherwise, it says nothing whatsoever in relation to why your contention that genocide-denying muslims must be supporters of genocide (as dictated by your thread title).


This is the case - but only because you keep droning on with an irrelevant point, and complaining that I don't address it, and then when I do address it by pointing out it is irrelevant, you make up absurd lies by claiming I am the one drawing a link between cornflakes and support for genocide.


Quote:
but it is absolutely incumbent upon you to demonstrate why all muslim genocide deniers definitely are genocide supporters - you know, to actually substantiate the BS claim in your thread title


But that is not the claim I made.


Quote:
Once would be just grea
t.

I explained it in this thread, as well as the previous one. And several dozen earlier ones.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jun 21st, 2019 at 6:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 20th, 2019 at 8:07pm:
Thats a completely different notion to the one that says all muslims support genocide - even if, unfathomably, they don't even believe Muhammad committed genocide.

FD performs some mysterious and incomprehensible voodoo logic to conclude that because gandalf (apparently) still justifies genocide as a general principle, even though he doesn't himself believe Muhammad committed genocide, somehow that means all other genocide-deniers do the same. I begged and begged him to come up with a coherent reason for this other than "because thats what gandalf did", but nothing.

Not even FD can deny the existence of said genocide-denying muslims, which includes muslim scholars who have published papers refuting it. yet still he insists that every one of them must support genocide anyway. Why is this? FD won't say.

Can you think of a reason why, after presenting the logic for why muslims are compelled to support what they believe Muhammad actually did, why on earth would you then think its somehow logically consistent to assume that muslims are compelled to support what Muhammad didn't do? Do you have an explanation that actually considers what these muslims think - as opposed to merely parrotting inanely "because... gandalf"?

Once again, as a Muslim, you are making far too large claims for yourselves.  Its is NOT Muslims who decide what a Muslim genocide or other murderous crime is.

Mohammed was a pretty unsavoury and tyrannical warlord. You have been turning yoyrselves into prezels over the centuries to construct an edifice of justification for him. You have been violating your minds and ssouls like that since he dies and no wonder you cannot be trusted.

Reasoning, to you, is nothing but justification. You simply cannot think for yourselves and remain Muslims. The ones that think leave. The ones who stay, or worse, convert like you, think only of justifications and excuses.

You are trapped.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 24th, 2019 at 10:51pm

freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 6:30pm:
Are you seriously suggesting you would be on here advocating the genocide of Jews if you were not a Muslim?

Is it because you were a Nazi before you were a Muslim?


Justifying, and even "supporting" the mass execution of entire 7th century armies for something as serious as conspiring with the enemy who were literally laying siege to your homeland - is completely standard fare FD, and not the least bit "Nazi-like". And it can be done effortlessly without even thinking about religion.

Its only when you start verbling up a fake meme about it being about killing jews for being jews, complete with literally shoving words down my throat - does it start taking on the sinister wacist tones you so desperately want to pin on me.


freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 6:30pm:
It is relevant to the extent that it demonstrates that your observation that some Muslims deny genocide is irrelevant to the OP.


Just some completely incoherent nonsense in the form of a sentence, that I doubt you even know what you are trying to say.

Suffice to say, it has absolutely no relevance to the actual point you need to address - ie why do muslims who reject genocide still have to support it. You have zip, zilch nada, sifr that even remotely addresses this - merely repeating the face-palmingly stupid and irrelevant "because...err... gandalf". You are either contending that all genocide denying muslims think like gandalf like a mindless collective, without agency, or you are uttering something beyond useless and obviously not relevant in any way.


freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 6:30pm:
You are very confused Gandalf. If you for example claimed that some Muslims eat cornflakes for breakfast, and that this proves that they oppose genocide, there would not suddenly be an onus on me, as you suggest, to prove that all Muslims who eat cornflakes for breakfast support genocide. I would merely have to show that it is irrelevant, by way of a few examples of Muslims such as yourself who support genocide.


Fantastic analogy FD! Cornflake eating muslims totally gets right to the point of genocide supporting - in precisely the way that genocide denial does - right? Well except that pointing out that there are muslims who do deny genocide absolutely *DOES* disprove your logic in your OP, which is based solely on the idea that muslims must support what Muhammad actually *DID* - not something they "DON'T* believe he did.

So go on FD, go ahead and point out to me how denying genocide is somehow irrelevant to your OP logic that is *SPECIFICALLY* based on the assumption that the genocide happened, and that all muslims believe it happend (otherwise how could something that didn't happen possibly "reflect badly on Muhammad or Islam"??) If you can somehow achieve this, then your idiotic cornflake analogy might actually make sense.


freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2019 at 6:30pm:
Quote:
but it is absolutely incumbent upon you to demonstrate why all muslim genocide deniers definitely are genocide supporters - you know, to actually substantiate the BS claim in your thread title


But that is not the claim I made.


You are either attempting the world record for all-time obtuseness, or you are completely clueless about your own argument. At this stage I'm open to either.

Suggest you read your OP again, and start over. *ALL* muslims support genocide right? Or are you going to come out straight for once and tell us your thread title is BS? Otherwise, if you are not going to come clean and persist with defending the BS claim, you need to understand that *ALL* muslims, means all muslims - genocide believers or deniers. You then need to comprehend your own logic in the OP - that it absolutely hinges on *ALL* muslims adhering to the logic thought processes you clearly outline in the OP. And most importantly - that it makes no sense at all unless it is assumed that all muslims accept that the genocide happened - otherwise it would not be one of the "examples" they would feel compelled to support.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 25th, 2019 at 8:59am

Quote:
Justifying, and even "supporting" the mass execution of entire 7th century armies


It wasn't an army Gandalf. It was a tribe of Jews, and it is disingenuous for you try to to spin it any other way.


Quote:
Its only when you start verbling up a fake meme


How 'real' is your meme about only the warriors being executing? You keep repeating that, then running away from it.


Quote:
complete with literally shoving words down my throat


Which words?


Quote:
Suffice to say, it has absolutely no relevance to the actual point you need to address - ie why do muslims who reject genocide still have to support it.


This is your argument, not mine.


Quote:
Fantastic analogy FD! Cornflake eating muslims totally gets right to the point of genocide supporting - in precisely the way that genocide denial does - right?


I would not call an analogy precise Gandalf. I merely hope you will get the point.


Quote:
Well except that pointing out that there are muslims who do deny genocide absolutely *DOES* disprove your logic in your OP,


No it doesn't. Denying genocide is not the same thing as opposing genocide.


Quote:
So go on FD, go ahead and point out to me how denying genocide is somehow irrelevant to your OP logic that is *SPECIFICALLY* based on the assumption that the genocide happened


I have plenty of times. You keep pretending I didn't address it.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 25th, 2019 at 2:51pm

freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2019 at 8:59am:
Quote:
Well except that pointing out that there are muslims who do deny genocide absolutely *DOES* disprove your logic in your OP,


No it doesn't. Denying genocide is not the same thing as opposing genocide.


Yes it does FD. If there are a minority of muslims who reject that Muhammad committed genocide, (which you seem to agree there is) then they don't go through the cognitive process you described in you OP. Why would they? Why would they believe that something that they don't even believe happened would reflect badly on Muhammad - and therefore need to be 'supported'? I don't know how many more times I need to explain this to you.

Either you stand by your claim in the thread title, or you come clean and admit it is BS. Either all muslims support genocide or they don't. Which is it?


freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2019 at 8:59am:
Quote:
So go on FD, go ahead and point out to me how denying genocide is somehow irrelevant to your OP logic that is *SPECIFICALLY* based on the assumption that the genocide happened


I have plenty of times. You keep pretending I didn't address it.


You haven't. But just for a laugh, why don't you show me the last time you think you did? And this time try and show me you actually addressing it - as opposed to not addressing it with the inane "because... gandalf". Show me where you actually explained *WHY* muslims who deny Muhammad's genocide must still inexplicably support genocide  - even though they are not actually following what the Quran tells them to do. And no, simply showing one person allegedly doing it is obviously not making the case for why any other muslim would do it (as you set out to prove in your OP), let alone demonstrating that they actually do (which is what you are actually required to do - in view of your BS thread title).


freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2019 at 8:59am:
Quote:
Suffice to say, it has absolutely no relevance to the actual point you need to address - ie why do muslims who reject genocide still have to support it.


This is your argument, not mine.


It is your argument that 100% of muslims - genocide deniers or otherwise - are as one supporters of genocide. You have only made the case for why genocide believers must support it, since this is supposedly an instance of Muhammad's "example". But for genocide deniers, this is not an instance of Muhammad's example, and therefore the cognitive process you describe in the OP doesn't apply. You now need to explain on what logic these genocide deniers must still support genocide. And no, the inane "because... gandalf", nor the arguably even more inane "Denying genocide is not the same thing as opposing genocide" non sequiturs don't count. They are idiotic.

Basically for your argument to be anywhere remotely coherent (not 'right' - as such an idiotic and baseless statement as the OP can never be 'right' - it is wrong by default, as the burden of proof is squarely on you) - then you need to come up with the same sort of deductive reasoning you came up with in the OP, but this time for muslims who *DON'T* actually consider Muhammad's 'genocide' as an instance of his "example" that must be 'supported' according to Quranic injunction. And by the way, this is not restricted to deniers of Muhammad's genocide, but could include muslims who don't consider such a genocide as within scope of what is meant by Muhammad being a good example. This includes 'Quran-only' muslims, as I have explained before. Since anything outside this scope (according to individual muslims) isn't relevant to the Quranic injunction to consider Muhammad the 'best' [sic] example for mankind. It is no less idiotic than claiming that you must 'support' eating cornflakes in line with the Quranic injunction to support whatever Muhammad did - *IRRESPECTIVE* of whether or not you actually believe Muhammad ever ate cornflakes or not.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jun 25th, 2019 at 9:11pm
You say you don't like Genocide, G, but you're just pretending. You'd love to get your hands on 1200 Jews to kill in a day.

Or how about a Jew with some gold? You'd be lighting up that box of coals on his stomach in no time, laughing along to his blood-curdling screams.

You have to, G. Moh said.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:04pm

Quote:
Yes it does FD. If there are a minority of muslims who reject that Muhammad committed genocide, (which you seem to agree there is) then they don't go through the cognitive process you described in you OP.


I expect the vast majority of Muslims deny in one way or another that Muhammad committed genocide. As you conveniently demonstrated for us, that is not the same as actually opposing genocide. Your argument has not progressed beyond demanding I prove a negative. Sticking genocide denial to this argument is no more relevant than sticking conflake consumption to it.


Quote:
Why would they believe that something that they don't even believe happened would reflect badly on Muhammad - and therefore need to be 'supported'? I don't know how many more times I need to explain this to you.


Most Muslims, including yourself, deny the genocide by misleadingly revising down the numbers until it falls below some arbitrary criteria. No different to holocaust deniers really. Or some other bald-faced lie such as it was an act of war, they were an army, or only the warriors were killed - all lies you have tried to tell us.

It still reflects badly on Muhammad because even they they play down the numbers, they are still conceding that Muhammad slaughtered Jews. Even if they revised the numbers down to zero, they would still have to contend with the fact that the vast majority of Muslims claim Muhammad did something evil, and they don't want to put themselves in the position where a disagreement over historical fact, in which they are in the minority, is all it takes to paint Muhammad as evil.

I have, of course, explained all these points to you repeatedly in this thread, but you keep repeating the question and ignoring the response.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 28th, 2019 at 6:19pm

freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
I expect the vast majority of Muslims deny in one way or another that Muhammad committed genocide. As you conveniently demonstrated for us, that is not the same as actually opposing genocide.


Nor is it the same as actually supporting genocide. Why do you have so much difficulty with this simple fact FD? And why would you bring up this non-point as if it somehow relevant to the claim that they do all support genocide? I'm sure you deny that, say, the British committed genocide against the Australian Aborigines as you spinelessly apologise for their invasion, but I'm not going to reflexively call every supporter of the British colonization of Australia a genocide supporter purely on that basis. Nor would I invoke such an idiotic non-point as "denying genocide is not the same as actually opposing genocide" to argue that they do.

As for 'demanding I prove a negative' - I demand you substantiate your actual claim. Which you've probably forgotton again, since its been more than 5 minutes since I reminded you last, is that every single muslim in the entire world, to a man woman and child, support genocide. To claim that this is the actual, real-life behaviour of a very large population in the world, is obviously a claim that demands evidence. You haven't, and you can't. Even more absurdly, its been you, not me, who's been demanding negative proving, by insisting that its up to me to provide a muslims who doesn't support genocide.


freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
Most Muslims, including yourself, deny the genocide by misleadingly revising down the numbers until it falls below some arbitrary criteria.


Most muslims FD? Thats funny, I'd say most muslims accept the numbers quoted by Islamic sources at face value. Where on earth did you get this idea?



freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2019 at 1:04pm:
Even if they revised the numbers down to zero, they would still have to contend with the fact that the vast majority of Muslims claim Muhammad did something evil, and they don't want to put themselves in the position where a disagreement over historical fact, in which they are in the minority, is all it takes to paint Muhammad as evil.


'did something evil' - what exactly do you mean by this FD, are you now saying that not all muslims support genocide - merely that he "did something evil"?

The 'logic' that you apply here is unfathomable FD.

Lets keep it simple - can you try explaining how "disasgreement over historical fact" - by which I assume you mean the historiocity of the mass execution - would paint Muhammad as evil? Doesn't denying he did evil painting him as err.. not evil?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 28th, 2019 at 6:57pm

Quote:
Nor is it the same as actually supporting genocide.


So it is two completely different issues? Thanks for clarifying. Is it time to move on yet, or shall we dwell on this for another 20 pages?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 28th, 2019 at 7:10pm

freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2019 at 6:57pm:

Quote:
Nor is it the same as actually supporting genocide.


So it is two completely different issues? Thanks for clarifying. Is it time to move on yet, or shall we dwell on this for another 20 pages?


Depends whether or not you have yet grasped the simple concept that simply parrotting "denying genocide is not the same as actually opposing genocide" - doesn't actually have any relevance to your argument that all muslims, in fact *DO* support genocide. My guess is that you don't, since you keep trotting it out every time I point out that genocide-deniers don't need to follow the cognitive processes you outline as your "argument" in the OP (which requires genuinely held belief in the historiocity of the event - otherwise its completely nonsensical) - as if it is somehow a legitimate rebuttal.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 28th, 2019 at 7:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28th, 2019 at 7:10pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2019 at 6:57pm:

Quote:
Nor is it the same as actually supporting genocide.


So it is two completely different issues? Thanks for clarifying. Is it time to move on yet, or shall we dwell on this for another 20 pages?


Depends whether or not you have yet grasped the simple concept that simply parrotting "denying genocide is not the same as actually opposing genocide" - doesn't actually have any relevance to your argument that all muslims, in fact *DO* support genocide. My guess is that you don't, since you keep trotting it out every time I point out that genocide-deniers don't need to follow the cognitive processes you outline as your "argument" in the OP (which requires genuinely held belief in the historiocity of the event - otherwise its completely nonsensical) - as if it is somehow a legitimate rebuttal.


Feel free to insert "but it wasn't really genocide" into any step of the cognitive process Gandalf. Along with cornflakes and any other obfuscation you wish.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 28th, 2019 at 7:29pm

Quote:
Feel free to insert "but it wasn't really genocide"


Yes that would work in your logic FD - congratulations. I'm sure the nazis don't call the slaughter of 6 million jews 'genocide' either.

The problem is, thats not what you need to insert.

Try inserting instead "Muhammad did not commit the mass execution he is accused of - thereby negating the need to spinelessly apologise for it - including denying such mass slaughter was genocide"

But let me guess - "because... gandalf"?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Mr Hammer on Jun 28th, 2019 at 7:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28th, 2019 at 7:29pm:

Quote:
Feel free to insert "but it wasn't really genocide"


Yes that would work in your logic FD - congratulations. I'm sure the nazis don't call the slaughter of 6 million jews 'genocide' either.

The problem is, thats not what you need to insert.

Try inserting instead "Muhammad did not commit the mass execution he is accused of - thereby negating the need to spinelessly apologise for it - including denying such mass slaughter was genocide"

But let me guess - "because... gandalf"?

I'm pretty sure Muslim armies did wipe out whole tribal groups, villages etc. The Christians did it also. That's genocide. ISIS almost did it to the Yazidi's in Syria. They weren't far off.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 28th, 2019 at 10:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28th, 2019 at 7:29pm:

Quote:
Feel free to insert "but it wasn't really genocide"


Yes that would work in your logic FD - congratulations. I'm sure the nazis don't call the slaughter of 6 million jews 'genocide' either.

The problem is, thats not what you need to insert.

Try inserting instead "Muhammad did not commit the mass execution he is accused of - thereby negating the need to spinelessly apologise for it - including denying such mass slaughter was genocide"

But let me guess - "because... gandalf"?


And what is wrong with my previous explanation of this? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't "because... gandalf".

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jun 29th, 2019 at 12:13am

freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2019 at 10:20pm:
And what is wrong with my previous explanation of this? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't "because... gandalf".


I'm sure you genuinely believe such an explanation exists, but all I've seen is incoherent nonsense, with the only thing that remotely makes sense is "because... gandalf". Everything else seems to be padding around that central theme.

Can you give it one more shot? Apologies in advance if it means repeating yourself, and please no need to fill your reply up with paragraphs of "slippery, evasive muslim" etc invectives. Just pretend I'm really stupid and can't understand what you've been saying, and really dumb it down for me in a catchy concise sentence or two. Can you do that FD?

And just to ensure we are on the same page - it is this opening argument that I want you to explain:


Quote:
Muslims believe that Muhammad (tgp) is the best example for all Muslims to follow. The Quran tells them so. So they cannot let something like Muhammad's genocide of the Medina Jews reflect badly on Islam or Muhammad. So, their religion compels them to support Muhammad's genocide.


Specifically: explain to me how this logic applies to muslims who reject the historiocity of the alleged massacre - not merely those who believe it but try and explain it away/downplay it. I'm talking about muslims who say "the entire male population was not condemned to death" - the tribe was not wiped out by Muhammad, no collective/indiscriminate punishment, therefore no genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jun 29th, 2019 at 8:11am
From the previous page:

Even if they revised the numbers down to zero, they would still have to contend with the fact that the vast majority of Muslims claim Muhammad did something evil, and they don't want to put themselves in the position where a disagreement over historical fact, in which they are in the minority, is all it takes to paint Muhammad as evil.


Quote:
Most muslims FD? Thats funny, I'd say most muslims accept the numbers quoted by Islamic sources at face value. Where on earth did you get this idea?


And yet they still deny it is genocide. From the same post:

Or some other bald-faced lie such as it was an act of war, they were an army, or only the warriors were killed - all lies you have tried to tell us.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:19pm
I was hoping you wouldn't drag this quote out FD, as it makes no freaking sense at all. Or at least, I was hoping that if you did drag it out, you would at least make it more comprehensible. Alas it was a forlorn hope :(

Lets at least try and break it down then....


freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2019 at 8:11am:
Even if they revised the numbers down to zero, they would still have to contend with the fact that the vast majority of Muslims claim Muhammad did something evil


Why is this a contention? Personally I have no problem with disagreeing with other muslims on any number of theological points (and this is not even theological, but historical).


freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2019 at 8:11am:
and they don't want to put themselves in the position where a disagreement over historical fact, in which they are in the minority, is all it takes to paint Muhammad as evil.


This is where the logical fallacy kicks in. Plus it makes no sense. I don't even know where to begin, as it is literally incomprehensible. So I guess this is what I meant by "pretend I'm stupid - dumb it down even more please".


freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2019 at 8:11am:
Quote:
Most muslims FD? Thats funny, I'd say most muslims accept the numbers quoted by Islamic sources at face value. Where on earth did you get this idea?


And yet they still deny it is genocide.


No FD, these are not the genocide deniers.

Genocide deniers obviously don't accept any figure that purports to be the slaughter of the entire male population.


freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2019 at 8:11am:
Or some other bald-faced lie such as it was an act of war, they were an army, or only the warriors were killed - all lies you have tried to tell us.


Or try even "only the ringleaders/those directly involved in treating with the enemy" - all other males, including warriors, were spared.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:52pm
Even the slaughter of one Jew is genocide, G - even if they reduced the number down to zero.

This means you must support genocide. And if you don't, you're a dastardly genocide denier.

So typical of your Muselman.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:56pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:52pm:
Even the slaughter of one Jew is genocide, G - even if they reduced the number down to zero.


He seems to be saying that even if you believe zero were slaughtered, you still have to  spinelessly apologise for a hypothetical slaughter of hundreds... because err.. they don't want to put themselves in a position of disputing history?... or something like that. Honestly I can't make head nor tail of that argument. Can you?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 4th, 2019 at 5:22pm

Quote:
Why is this a contention? Personally I have no problem with disagreeing with other muslims on any number of theological points (and this is not even theological, but historical).


If you had quoted the rest of the sentence, you would not need to ask.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jul 4th, 2019 at 7:43pm
Muslims regard themselves as a race apart.   Allah's chosen, special people, supplanting the Jews.

Explains their psychology and motivations for wanting to eliminate the Jews and lord it over everyone else ('caliphate, jihad, dhimmitude').







Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 5th, 2019 at 11:30am

freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 5:22pm:

Quote:
Why is this a contention? Personally I have no problem with disagreeing with other muslims on any number of theological points (and this is not even theological, but historical).


If you had quoted the rest of the sentence, you would not need to ask.


The next sentence makes absolutely no sense FD, thats what I said - if only you had read my next sentence.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:42pm
It means that if the vast majority of mainstreams muslims were correct on the 'technical' question of historical fact, then they would be forced to concede that Muhammad was evil. Hence, Muslims who deny the genocide also find a way to support it if it did happen.

All Muslims do this. Even the mainstream ones who give the 600 to 900 dead Jews figure find a way to deny that it was genocide at the same time as supporting it.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 5th, 2019 at 8:58pm

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:42pm:
It means that if the vast majority of mainstreams muslims were correct on the 'technical' question of historical fact, then they would be forced to concede that Muhammad was evil.


This is complete jibberish FD. *IF* they are correct? What about *IF* they are not? Its meaningless jibberish.

What actually happened as a matter of historical fact (which neither of us know for sure) is neither here nor there to the only issue that matters here - which is what muslims actually believe. The only way your jibberish could possibly come close to making sense was if you arrogantly assume that it definitely did happen, and furthermore that all muslims must secrety accept that it happened, and go through, as a perfect singular mind, the absurd logical leaps you set out in the OP that leads them to support genocide. Yet another manifestation of the mindless collective argument.


freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:42pm:
Muslims who deny the genocide also find a way to support it if it did happen.


Oh I know FD, because... gandalf. We're still working on why that necessarily means every other genocide-denying muslim thinks the same, but not to worry, I'm sure another 40 pages and we'll get there.


freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 7:42pm:
All Muslims do this.


Of course FD, you know for a fact what 1.5 billion people "do"

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 5th, 2019 at 9:32pm

Quote:
What actually happened as a matter of historical fact (which neither of us know for sure) is neither here nor there to the only issue that matters here - which is what muslims actually believe. The only way your jibberish could possibly come close to making sense was if you arrogantly assume that it definitely did happen, and furthermore that all muslims must secrety accept that it happened


The vast majority openly accept that it happened - hence the problem for those theoretical Muslims of yours who hold that if those vast majority are correct, the foundation of their faith is an evil man.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Jul 5th, 2019 at 10:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:52pm:
Even the slaughter of one Jew is genocide, G - even if they reduced the number down to zero.


He seems to be saying that even if you believe zero were slaughtered, you still have to spinelessly apologise for a hypothetical slaughter of hundreds... because err.. they don't want to put themselves in a position of disputing history?... or something like that.

Honestly I can't make head nor tail of that argument.

Can you?



You have a point gandalf.

It is only a hypothetical slaughter [of hundreds].

And the source of this account is only recorded within ISLAMIC religious texts.

And everyone knows, that even the Koran itself, is very likely a simply a concocted 'religious text'.

'Pasted' together [fabricated] by 7th century Mohammedan holy men.




Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1561780557/7#7

Quote:

......the oldest known fragments of the Koran were discovered, in the 1970's, in a local mosque, in Sanna, Yemen,
a German ISLAMIC scholar was invited to do preservation work, on those fragments of the Koran.....


[quote]

.......The first person to spend a significant amount of time examining the Yemeni fragments, in 1981, was Gerd-R. Puin, a specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Koranic paleography based at Saarland University, in Saarbrücken, Germany. Puin, who had been sent by the German government to organize and oversee the restoration project, recognized the antiquity of some of the parchment fragments, and his preliminary inspection also revealed unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment. Enticing, too, were the sheets of the scripture written in the rare and early Hijazi Arabic script: pieces of the earliest Korans known to exist, they were also palimpsests -- versions very clearly written over even earlier, washed-off versions. What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D.


[/quote]



I'm sure that Mohammed, didn't really commit any serious atrocities.

How could he,      ...if his 'persona' was only a figment of some Mohammedan holy men's imaginations ?





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Quote:
What actually happened as a matter of historical fact (which neither of us know for sure) is neither here nor there to the only issue that matters here - which is what muslims actually believe. The only way your jibberish could possibly come close to making sense was if you arrogantly assume that it definitely did happen, and furthermore that all muslims must secrety accept that it happened


The vast majority openly accept that it happened - hence the problem for those theoretical Muslims of yours who hold that if those vast majority are correct, the foundation of their faith is an evil man.


No it isn't. You are making no sense at all.

What your saying is even if I believe Muhammad committed no atrocity, I must somehow still believe he is evil - because most muslims do believe he did commit an atrocity.

How on earth did this absurd brain fart pass as plausible even in your confused mind?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 5th, 2019 at 10:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 10:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 9:32pm:

Quote:
What actually happened as a matter of historical fact (which neither of us know for sure) is neither here nor there to the only issue that matters here - which is what muslims actually believe. The only way your jibberish could possibly come close to making sense was if you arrogantly assume that it definitely did happen, and furthermore that all muslims must secrety accept that it happened


The vast majority openly accept that it happened - hence the problem for those theoretical Muslims of yours who hold that if those vast majority are correct, the foundation of their faith is an evil man.


No it isn't. You are making no sense at all.

What your saying is even if I believe Muhammad committed no atrocity, I must somehow still believe he is evil - because most muslims do believe he did commit an atrocity.

How on earth did this absurd brain fart pass as plausible even in your confused mind?


No Gandalf, that is not what I am saying.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 5th, 2019 at 10:46pm
You are saying that muslims who deny Muhammad committed any genocide can still somehow be compelled to accept that the foundation of their religion is an evil man - right?

Or if you are not saying that, how on earth is the fact that the majority of muslims believe he committed an atrocity a problem in any way for these genocide deniers?

Feel free to actually expand upon and properly explain your brain farts for once FD.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am
Because it makes a question of historical fact, in which they are the minority among Muslims, the only barrier to them concluding that Muhammad was evil. They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad. That's why you offered up your "academic" support for Muhammad's genocide at the same time as denying it. They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it. 

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:43pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 10:46pm:
You are saying that muslims who deny Muhammad committed any genocide can still somehow be compelled to accept that the foundation of their religion is an evil man - right?

Or if you are not saying that, how on earth is the fact that the majority of muslims believe he committed an atrocity a problem in any way for these genocide deniers?

Feel free to actually expand upon and properly explain your brain farts for once FD.

Mohammed was not evil merely for his murdering the Jews. He was a low character on almost every account.

To regard him, as Muslim like you do,  as the best of men, is a willful auto-mindfvck on a colossal, organised scale.  You all know its bollocks but you are all too afraid of each other to break rank.

The guy was a dishonest, thick yet cunning, manipulative sex maniac. His successors were just like him, his legacy has been you stupid sons of Mohammed murdering each other and anyone else you can lay your hands on IN HIS NAME!!!


Dishonest, blinkered, murderous in the face of criticism - sons of Mohammed.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:09am

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.


You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.


freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.


Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide. The individuals themselves have no agency at all to come to their own conclusions and consider context. No way can a muslim say "you know, executing members of an entire army who treated with the enemy while under siege is one thing, but rounding up and gassing all jews, just for being jews - well thats something quite different".

Are you yourself allowed to pick and choose FD? For example, would you be prepared to call the annhialation of say the Australian Aborigines as genocide? American Indians? the Incas?

Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 10th, 2019 at 12:39pm

Quote:
You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks.


I think every Muslim who has posted here has given us a variation on this same theme, but none have come close to you in the number of different versions and excuses.


Quote:
That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.


Can you give an example that does not involve Muslims supporting genocide? Or is your only point that Muslims can be more creative than I give them credit for in rationalising their support for genocide?

BTW, I think rationalise is the wrong term. It ultimately rests on an emotional reaction, or cognitive dissonance. I doubt Muslims consciously realise they have to support genocide because their religion paints them into a corner.


Quote:
here is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority.


You can make up any story you want. You often do. But can you back it up?


Quote:
Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide.


You are confused Gandalf


Quote:
Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?


No, because unlike you, I do not support genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Jul 10th, 2019 at 12:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:09am:

You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks.

Thats one out of millions.

That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.




ARGUMENT;

gandalf

Here is another way in which every individual moslem is able to determine which actions are good, and which actions are evil.....


------- >


ISLAMIC law, is ISLAM.

It is ISLAMIC law, which 'informs' all of mainstream ISLAM, and which 'informs' authoritative ISLAMIC doctrine and on lawful behaviour.


Within ISLAM, for the devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by ISLAMIC law.

And within ISLAM, for the devout moslem, all things are verboten and haram, if they are NOT permitted by ISLAMIC law.


You must know that gandalf.




QUESTION;
But what determines and informs ISLAMIC law ?


Every word of the Koran, are Allah's words - which conveys information which Allah wished to make known to every believer.
[the Koran itself, states that, that, is the Korans purpose.     Koran 5.47-48    Koran 3.2-3
]

And what the Koran either prohibits or permits, is the primary guide to authoritative ISLAMIC law.

You must know that gandalf.



.



Yadda said....
What behaviour is permitted [halal], to moslems?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376746834/6#6


Yadda said....
The inerrant Koran???
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0




"Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)."
Koran 3.2-3





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:09am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.


You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.


freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.


Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide. The individuals themselves have no agency at all to come to their own conclusions and consider context. No way can a muslim say "you know, executing members of an entire army who treated with the enemy while under siege is one thing, but rounding up and gassing all jews, just for being jews - well thats something quite different".

Are you yourself allowed to pick and choose FD? For example, would you be prepared to call the annhialation of say the Australian Aborigines as genocide? American Indians? the Incas?

Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?


G, I'm curious. Please give this one a stab, I'm really really keen to know what you think.

Why do you answer?

That's all. Why do you do it?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 11th, 2019 at 11:17am

Karnal wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:09am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.


You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.


freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.


Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide. The individuals themselves have no agency at all to come to their own conclusions and consider context. No way can a muslim say "you know, executing members of an entire army who treated with the enemy while under siege is one thing, but rounding up and gassing all jews, just for being jews - well thats something quite different".

Are you yourself allowed to pick and choose FD? For example, would you be prepared to call the annhialation of say the Australian Aborigines as genocide? American Indians? the Incas?

Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?


G, I'm curious. Please give this one a stab, I'm really really keen to know what you think.

Why do you answer?

That's all. Why do you do it?


I refuse to believe that someone could intentionally be so obtuse.

It simply defies belief that someone seemingly so intelligent could give these sorts of "arguments" with a straight face. I guess I'm hoping (against hope) that its a simple misunderstanding somewhere.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 11th, 2019 at 11:33am

freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 12:39pm:
ou can make up any story you want. You often do. But can you back it up?


make up any stories eh. You mean like saying transparent crap like "They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it."? Can you back that up? Actually scratch that, don't bother answering.


freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 12:39pm:
You are confused Gandalf


We apparently "support" genocide not because we defend Hitler's holocaust, or the Armenian killings or the annhialation of the Australian aborigines - or any actual genocide - but because we supposedly support the killing of the Banu Qurayza men. Something that you insist is a genocide, but pretty much no one else does.

So yeah, it entirely comes down to what you interpret as genocide. To the absurd extent that even when we contend it was the execution only of a few handpicked ringleaders - its still genocide.


freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 12:39pm:
No, because unlike you, I do not support genocide.


You haven't answered my question FD - do you consider the annhialation of the Australian Aborigines or American Indians by the British/British descendents as 'genocide'? According to you, denying a genocide is a genocide gets you well on the way to supporting genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:52pm

Quote:
We apparently "support" genocide not because we defend Hitler's holocaust, or the Armenian killings or the annhialation of the Australian aborigines - or any actual genocide - but because we supposedly support the killing of the Banu Qurayza men. Something that you insist is a genocide, but pretty much no one else does.


Plenty of others do.


Quote:
So yeah, it entirely comes down to what you interpret as genocide. To the absurd extent that even when we contend it was the execution only of a few handpicked ringleaders - its still genocide.


How were they picked?


Quote:
ou haven't answered my question FD - do you consider the annhialation of the Australian Aborigines or American Indians by the British/British descendents as 'genocide'? According to you, denying a genocide is a genocide gets you well on the way to supporting genocide.


That is not what I am saying Gandalf.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:21pm
Do you consider the annhialation of natives in Australia and the Americas by white settlers genocide FD? You haven't said.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 13th, 2019 at 8:16am
I am not that familiar with the details. The Tasmanian aborigines probably count. I don't consider accidentally introduced diseases, and the deaths they cause, to be genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jul 13th, 2019 at 11:19am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 11:17am:

Karnal wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:09am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.


You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.


freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.


Ok so where we're at now is that the question of whether or not someone 'supports genocide' entirely boils down to whether or not FD thinks it was genocide. The individuals themselves have no agency at all to come to their own conclusions and consider context. No way can a muslim say "you know, executing members of an entire army who treated with the enemy while under siege is one thing, but rounding up and gassing all jews, just for being jews - well thats something quite different".

Are you yourself allowed to pick and choose FD? For example, would you be prepared to call the annhialation of say the Australian Aborigines as genocide? American Indians? the Incas?

Would you describe yourself as a genocide supporter? If not, why not?


G, I'm curious. Please give this one a stab, I'm really really keen to know what you think.

Why do you answer?

That's all. Why do you do it?


I refuse to believe that someone could intentionally be so obtuse.

It simply defies belief that someone seemingly so intelligent could give these sorts of "arguments" with a straight face. I guess I'm hoping (against hope) that its a simple misunderstanding somewhere.


Good luck with that. In my experience, once they're gone, they're gone.

Not unlike Moh's belief about infidels, no? Moh said you shouldn't waste your time trying to convince them.

It's the same with those who've abandoned reason. If you question their ridiculous claims they get defensive and make even MORE ridiculous claims.

Remember, the reason the 2007 FD "changed his mind" was Abu. Abu had FD so well-owned on issues of history and social justice, FD had to switch and go surreal to pay him back. When Abu ignored the more ridiculous questions, FD got miffed. He started the Wiki in an attempt to get Abu's attention. The rest is history.

Only a miracle makes them come back from this, G. Saul had a flash on the road to Damascus.

The parable of the prodigal son explains this well. Some people have to hit rock bottom to experience what Saul did. The other son never left and got no great spiritual experience, but both are equal in the eyes of their father.

FD would need to hit rock bottom to come back to the light. Right now, he's comfortable and complacently in denial. As Moh said, there's no talking these types around, you just have to wait. If they return, alll good. If not, that's their problem.

And yes, I know the violent extremists make it our problem too, but there's no talking a white supremacist around, he just digs in deeper.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:48pm

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 8:16am:
I am not that familiar with the details.


Interesting. For someone so obsessed about genocide you are surprisingly unfamiliar with the most notorious and large scale cases of it in history.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:48pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
Do you consider the annhialation of natives in Australia and the Americas by white settlers genocide FD? You haven't said.

This is a load of bollocks. They have not been annihilated.

Muslim genocides are numerous and - hushed up. What you did in India dwarfs Mao and Stalin. Armenians.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by greggerypeccary on Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:54pm

Frank wrote on Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:48pm:
Muslim genocides are numerous and - hushed up.


Ah.

You're the only one who's told about them, yeah?


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:55pm
Well allah did say that he could kill them if he wanted to, but he preferred muzzies do it as a test.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 17th, 2019 at 10:12am

Frank wrote on Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
Do you consider the annhialation of natives in Australia and the Americas by white settlers genocide FD? You haven't said.

This is a load of bollocks. They have not been annihilated.

Muslim genocides are numerous and - hushed up. What you did in India dwarfs Mao and Stalin. Armenians.


The India case is an interesting one. Its my understanding that this was a series of persecutions/massacres/conflicts over a period of several hundred years. Whats significant is that the target of this 'genocide' - hindus - were not eliminated as a cultural entity. Far from it. Today they are thriving and are the dominant culture in India today.

Which brings me to the definition of 'genocide'. Which IMO should have something to do with wiping out completely, or at least make significant inroads to wiping out - an entire culture/ethnic population. Clearly this was not achieved in India. In stark contrast to Australia and North America. Even if remnants of those societies remain today, culturally they are insignificant and a shadow of what they once were. This is entirely due to a very deliberate and systematic program of annhialation by the white settlers.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Mr Hammer on Jul 17th, 2019 at 10:17am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 10:12am:

Frank wrote on Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:21pm:
Do you consider the annhialation of natives in Australia and the Americas by white settlers genocide FD? You haven't said.

This is a load of bollocks. They have not been annihilated.

Muslim genocides are numerous and - hushed up. What you did in India dwarfs Mao and Stalin. Armenians.


The India case is an interesting one. Its my understanding that this was a series of persecutions/massacres/conflicts over a period of several hundred years. Whats significant is that the target of this 'genocide' - hindus - were not eliminated as a cultural entity. Far from it. Today they are thriving and are the dominant culture in India today.

Which brings me to the definition of 'genocide'. Which IMO should have something to do with wiping out completely, or at least make significant inroads to wiping out - an entire culture/ethnic population. Clearly this was not achieved in India. In stark contrast to Australia and North America. Even if remnants remain today, culturally they are insignificant and a shadow of what they once were. This is entirely due to a very deliberate and systematic program of annhialation by the white settlers.

How many ethnic groups have the Muslims wiped out or now are just hanging on? Loads of them. Jews and Christians were once spread  throughout the Muslim world . Not now though. The Yazidis are a classic case of this. Look at what is happening to the Egyptian Coptic's.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 17th, 2019 at 10:35am
The Yazidis and the copts have been living in muslim lands as vulnerable minorities for centuries. If muslims wanted to wipe them out they could have done so easily any time in the last 1400 years. Unlike christendom, minority cultures have been able to survive and in most cases thrive under muslim rule until very recently.

Can you think of any cultures/religions that pre-date christianity still existing in Europe? Apart from some hippies doing dressups and playing pretend druids - I'm struggling to think of any. Yet even today the muslim world has plethora of pre-islamic cultures/religions.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Mr Hammer on Jul 17th, 2019 at 10:49am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 10:35am:
The Yazidis and the copts have been living in muslim lands as vulnerable minorities for centuries. If muslims wanted to wipe them out they could have done so easily any time in the last 1400 years. Unlike christendom, minority cultures have been able to survive and in most cases thrive under muslim rule until very recently.

Can you think of any cultures/religions that pre-date christianity still existing in Europe? Apart from some hippies doing dressups and playing pretend druids - I'm struggling to think of any. Yet even today the muslim world has plethora of pre-islamic cultures/religions.

If white settlers wanted to wipe the aborigines out …….. Why does it have to pre-date Christianity. There's the gypsies, Cossacks, Celtic culture, Muslims left over from the Ottoman's  throughout Europe,  Inuit. If you are talking about modern times there's certainly a lot more variation in thought in the Christian world rather than the Muslim world. How many confessed atheists , gays, jedhi  are getting around in the Muslim world right now? The Muslim world are just normal people but religion is really forced on people .

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jul 17th, 2019 at 11:34am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 17th, 2019 at 10:35am:
The Yazidis and the copts have been living in muslim lands as vulnerable minorities for centuries. If muslims wanted to wipe them out they could have done so easily any time in the last 1400 years. Unlike christendom, minority cultures have been able to survive and in most cases thrive under muslim rule until very recently.

Can you think of any cultures/religions that pre-date christianity still existing in Europe? Apart from some hippies doing dressups and playing pretend druids - I'm struggling to think of any. Yet even today the muslim world has plethora of pre-islamic cultures/religions.


Ah.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Jul 27th, 2019 at 9:00am


"The Two Faces of the Billoo Family."







Quote:

CAIR Leader 'Proud' of Genocidal California Imam

by Martha Lee
July 19, 2019


California imam Ahmed Billoo recently called for the mass extermination of Jews.

Apparently impatient at the border-security protocols at Ben Gurion Airport in Israel, he posted a prayer to Twitter with the hashtag "Zionists": "Oh God, reduce their numbers, exterminate them, and don't leave a single one alive."

Ahmed Billoo's sister is Zahra Billoo, director of the San Francisco branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).

She is also an important figure in the Women's March movement, and has appeared alongside her brother at Women's March events. Billoo's own colleagues at CAIR "liked" Ahmed's post. When asked, CAIR and Zahra Billoo herself refused to comment on Ahmed Billoo's genocidal call.

Publicly, Zahra Billoo prides herself on her commitment to progressive causes. When explaining her involvement in the Women's March, she said that "what we need right now is to send a clear message" "that we will work together across communities to defend and protect each other."

https://www.meforum.org/59007/zahra-biilloo


"....we [moslems] will work together across communities to defend and protect each other."

'.....AND WE WILL PRAISE ALLAH, AND THANK HIM WHENEVER HE SLAUGHTERS THE DISBELIEVERS, ESPECIALLY JEWS.'



.




"ISLAM ES PAZ"


IMAGE.....




.




Quote:

"Peace summarises everything in Islam, because it means

submitting your will to God,

so you acquire peace through it," he said.

"When I'm following its [i.e. ISLAM's] teachings,

I know that my own actions are in line     with what my creator wants,

and hence I am at peace with myself, [with] my community and the rest of the world."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-19/darwins-muslim-community-tackles-discrimination-at-meeting/6025586?section=nt




IMAGE....



Quote:

"Mr Yunus has been encouraging peaceful community bridging since starting his post as Darwin's Islamic leader in 2014."
- ABC news report - 2015-01-19



QUOTE;
"Peace summarises everything in Islam..."

- Mr Yunus



.



QUESTION;
Why do we continue to allow these people to live in our society ?


When their stated objective [and the stated objective of their 'religion'] is only to live among us, in order to grow in numbers,
in order to seek to weaken our society with their presence [with cultural parasitism, with their 'disguised insurgency, and with their JIHAD terror],
and with the final objective being, to slaughter us.


'.....just like in muslim countries.'



insurgency, insurgent = = rising in active revolt.



.



According to Allah, everything, in the whole world belongs to the moslem;

"Or have they gods that can guard them from Us? They have no power to aid themselves, nor can they be defended from Us.
Nay, We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
Koran 21:43-44


"And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things."
Koran 33:27


According to    THE CLERICS    Allah tells the moslem that he must engage in     'Jihad',    to take what is his, by right of being a moslem.      !!!!!


WATCH A MOSQUE LEADER IN THE USA, URGING YOUNG MOSLEM MEN TO DO JUST THAT;

https://youtu.be/qUYIHRRaPmA



.



WWW search....
"The peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point, the pivot, the summit of Islam is jihad"



"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123



.




WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!!!




.



Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1504079978/14#14

Quote:

'Teacher quits after     primary school     students threaten to behead her'

QUESTION;
Where do moslem children living in Australia get these ideas from ?




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Jul 27th, 2019 at 9:11am


WWW search....
"The peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point, the pivot, the summit of Islam is jihad"



.



Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1504079978/14#14

Quote:

'Teacher quits after     primary school     students threaten to behead her'

QUESTION;
Where do moslem children living in Australia get these ideas from ?



Where do moslem children get these ideas from ?

FROM living in Iraq,
from living in Syria,
from living in Turkey,
and from living in Australia,

and being under the influence of their moslem parents,
FROM BEING INDOCTRINATED WITH THE PRECEPTS OF ISLAM.


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1561322032/27#27



.



"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:29pm
Now that FD seems to be back, I'd like to highlight a previous post. It goes to the crux of FD's core argument for why every single muslim in the world, man, woman and child, are of one mind in supporting genocide. I thought I articulated this response pretty well, but it seems to have been ignored:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:09am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.


You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:34pm
Not only is it a logical fallacy to theorize that those muslims who believe in a different version of Muhammad than the majority must necessarily 'support' both versions (why??) - it is patently absurd to insist, with not a shred of evidence other than the alleged musings of a single muslim, that they in fact do this in reality.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Mr Hammer on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
Not only is it a logical fallacy to theorize that those muslims who believe in a different version of Muhammad than the majority must necessarily 'support' both versions (why??) - it is patently absurd to insist, with not a shred of evidence other than the alleged musings of a single muslim, that they in fact do this in reality.

Looking around the world Gandalf why do you think Muslims have a hard time getting along with other faiths. Now Muslims  are having problems in China????

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:42pm:
Looking around the world Gandalf why do you think Muslims have a hard time getting along with other faiths.


Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.

We can say these things, and we should say these things. We shouldn't be running away from these hard truths. What we shouldn't say though, is outrageous bigoted slurs like "all muslims support genocide" - based on nothing but the most flawed attempt at logic, and without a shred of actual evidence. And calling out such outrageous and bigoted slurs as outrageous and bigoted - should not be interpreted as avoiding or apologising for the very real problems posed by, and facing Islam today. In fact, *NOT* acknowledging outrageous bigoted slurs as unacceptable and nonsense directly hinders any attempts to acknowledge and constructively deal with the very real problems faced by and posed by Islam today.

The sad truth of Islam today has enough to condemn itself with without needing to resort to outright lies about it.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:02pm
muhammad was muhammad who:

Got the hots for a little girl of about 4 years old, said she was going to be his, hung around for couple of years or so, married her when she was six then allegedly waited until she was a whopping 9 years old then legally raped her.

Lied to people: Rode a flying donkey to Jerusalem, said trees and stones could talk, that he had seen allahs' three daughters in paradise, that he had seen the inhabitants of hell, who were mostly made up of women hanging by their breasts over a fire, that in the last days trees and rocks will call out to the muzzies to come and kill the Jews hiding behind them, that allah was forgiving if muzzies raped women who their right hand possessed, that muzzies are to be the supreme judge jury and executioner of people.

Had a verse of convenience in the qur'an which covered his crazed bloodlust.

Etc. etc. etc..

-----aaannddd people wonder why islam is responsible for the almost insurmountable human rights tragedies / problems that are happening in the muzzie lands of today 2019.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Mr Hammer on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:42pm:
Looking around the world Gandalf why do you think Muslims have a hard time getting along with other faiths.


Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.

We can say these things, and we should say these things. We shouldn't be running away from these hard truths. What we shouldn't say though, is outrageous bigoted slurs like "all muslims support genocide" - based on nothing but the most flawed attempt at logic, and without a shred of actual evidence. And calling out such outrageous and bigoted slurs as outrageous and bigoted - should not be interpreted as avoiding or apologising for the very real problems posed by, and facing Islam today. In fact, *NOT* acknowledging outrageous bigoted slurs as unacceptable and nonsense directly hinders any attempts to acknowledge and constructively deal with the very real problems faced by and posed by Islam today.

The sad truth of Islam today has enough to condemn itself with without needing to resort to outright lies about it.

I respect your honesty Gandalf and I've always understood your point believe it or not.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Secret Wars on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:
Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.


Say the same thing to Brian and he will call you an islamaphobe and ask you how many Muslims you know.



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Brian Ross on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:51pm

Secret Wars wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:
Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.


Say the same thing to Brian and he will call you an islamaphobe and ask you how many Muslims you know.


"Islamophobe," Secret and as we all know, you've never encountered a Muslim in your entire life, have you?  Tsk, tsk.   ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:55pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:42pm:
Looking around the world Gandalf why do you think Muslims have a hard time getting along with other faiths.


Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.

We can say these things, and we should say these things. We shouldn't be running away from these hard truths. What we shouldn't say though, is outrageous bigoted slurs like "all muslims support genocide" - based on nothing but the most flawed attempt at logic, and without a shred of actual evidence. And calling out such outrageous and bigoted slurs as outrageous and bigoted - should not be interpreted as avoiding or apologising for the very real problems posed by, and facing Islam today. In fact, *NOT* acknowledging outrageous bigoted slurs as unacceptable and nonsense directly hinders any attempts to acknowledge and constructively deal with the very real problems faced by and posed by Islam today.

The sad truth of Islam today has enough to condemn itself with without needing to resort to outright lies about it.

I respect your honesty Gandalf and I've always understood your point believe it or not.


I do believe it Hammer. And believe it or not I've actually always found you one of the more reasonable people to debate with here.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:58pm

Secret Wars wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:
Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.


Say the same thing to Brian and he will call you an islamaphobe and ask you how many Muslims you know.


I think you'll find Brian has pointed out exactly the same thing - repeatedly. The issue people around here seem to have with him is that he follows it up with a "but that isn't an excuse to throw all muslims in the same basket - type sentiment.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Secret Wars on Jul 29th, 2019 at 4:00pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:51pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:
Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.


Say the same thing to Brian and he will call you an islamaphobe and ask you how many Muslims you know.


"Islamophobe," Secret and as we all know, you've never encountered a Muslim in your entire life, have you?  Tsk, tsk.   ::)


It was Gandalf’s observation note mine dopey, so address him if you disagree.

PS dickhead, I don’t rely on unprovable self serving anecdotes of the type that you rely on in place of arguments.  Remove your self serving bullshit and your post consists of
Quote:
"Islamophobe," Secret



Cretin.  ::)

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Mr Hammer on Jul 29th, 2019 at 4:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:55pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:42pm:
Looking around the world Gandalf why do you think Muslims have a hard time getting along with other faiths.


Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.

We can say these things, and we should say these things. We shouldn't be running away from these hard truths. What we shouldn't say though, is outrageous bigoted slurs like "all muslims support genocide" - based on nothing but the most flawed attempt at logic, and without a shred of actual evidence. And calling out such outrageous and bigoted slurs as outrageous and bigoted - should not be interpreted as avoiding or apologising for the very real problems posed by, and facing Islam today. In fact, *NOT* acknowledging outrageous bigoted slurs as unacceptable and nonsense directly hinders any attempts to acknowledge and constructively deal with the very real problems faced by and posed by Islam today.

The sad truth of Islam today has enough to condemn itself with without needing to resort to outright lies about it.

I respect your honesty Gandalf and I've always understood your point believe it or not.


I do believe it Hammer. And believe it or not I've actually always found you one of the more reasonable people to debate with here.

Thank you. You have a very pinpoint logic. Very impressive. I've met some lovely Muslim people. Particularly  Arab people. Very respectful. I have no problem with good people. good people in this world are gems.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by moses on Jul 29th, 2019 at 4:29pm

Quote:
but that isn't an excuse to throw all muslims in the same basket


The muslims who are responsible for the global islamic terrorism / refugee / child slaughter atrocities happening right now, can all justify their deeds by quoting the qur'an chapter and verse.

The doctrine of the qur'an was / is / will be the cause and motivation for all these unspeakable human rights atrocities carried out by devout muslims.

Every single muslim on this earth reveres the qur'an as the infallible unchangeable words of allah.

It stands to reason, if you support the cause and motivation, you support the atrocities engendered.

There is only one answer to all this depravity:

The qur'an must be questioned and reformed.

However this will destroy islam as the myth of infallible  unchangeable will be blown out of the water.

So we have the world situation where the bloodshed death and destruction will stay with us for a while yet, as the loony left and the *moderates* prefer the survival of islam in it's present satanic form, over reforming it (which will destroy islam) to stop the atrocities.

Just how long it will take the world to get sick of the loony left / islam duo standing in the way of peace, is anybodies guess.

It will probably take something like the muzzies deciding that the time is right to destroy the world so the 12th imam and their islamic mass murderer yehoshua can come back.

Who knows, I do know that a loony leftard backed 7th century death cult, is a very dangerous entity today 2019.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Jul 29th, 2019 at 4:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:42pm:

Looking around the world Gandalf why do you think Muslims have a hard time getting along with other faiths.


Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.

We can say these things, and we should say these things. We shouldn't be running away from these hard truths. What we shouldn't say though, is outrageous bigoted slurs like "all muslims support genocide" - based on nothing but the most flawed attempt at logic, and without a shred of actual evidence........



"all muslims support genocide" - based on nothing but the most flawed attempt at logic, and without a shred of actual evidence........




QUESTION      [to anyone];
Does the teacher in the mosque teach and promote ISLAMIC law ?

And does he teach and promote the precepts of ISLAM, which are found within the Koran ?



To say,       "all muslims support genocide"      is simply recognising that;


Every moslem is a moslem.     .....i.e.  A FOLLOWER OF ISLAM.


And it is acknowledging,    truthfully,    that for a moslem to be acknowledged and accepted as a moslem by other members of the ummah [moslem community],
the individual moslem must,
1/ be an advocate for ISLAMIC law, and,
2/ he must promote ISLAMIC law and,
3/ he must promote and be an advocate of all of the holy precepts of ISLAM which are stated, within the Koran.



Which include....

1/ Love for his brothers.

2/ Hatred of all disbelievers.


"Al-wala' wa-l-bara'......signifies loving and hating for the sake of Allah."
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1557896757/9#9



.



Every moslem is a moslem.
n.b.
...if a moslem, isn't a moslem,      ....he is an infidel       [an enemy of Allah!].


WWW search

"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men."

"Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders.
"



.




"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred...."
Koran 58.22


"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."
Koran 9.23


"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98



Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Jul 30th, 2019 at 1:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:48pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 8:16am:
I am not that familiar with the details.


Interesting. For someone so obsessed about genocide you are surprisingly unfamiliar with the most notorious and large scale cases of it in history.


Are you talking about Tasmanian Aborigines?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War


Quote:
The Black War was the period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Australians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832. The conflict, fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides, claimed the lives of more than 200 European colonists and between 600 and 900 Aboriginal people, nearly annihilating the island's indigenous population.[2][3] The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians, and the frequent incidence of mass killings, has sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide.[4]


600 to 900 eh? Perhaps an angel told them to do it.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Jul 31st, 2019 at 11:28am
bump for FD...


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:29pm:
Now that FD seems to be back, I'd like to highlight a previous post. It goes to the crux of FD's core argument for why every single muslim in the world, man, woman and child, are of one mind in supporting genocide. I thought I articulated this response pretty well, but it seems to have been ignored:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:09am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.


You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Abu on Jul 31st, 2019 at 12:36pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 4:01pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:55pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 3:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:58pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:42pm:
Looking around the world Gandalf why do you think Muslims have a hard time getting along with other faiths.


Because muslims are disproportionally more violent and more intolerant compared to members of other faiths.

See I'm not afraid to confront the difficult truths like this Hammer. Islam, as it manifests itself today, has massive problems, and represents a massive threat to peace and coexistence around the world.

We can say these things, and we should say these things. We shouldn't be running away from these hard truths. What we shouldn't say though, is outrageous bigoted slurs like "all muslims support genocide" - based on nothing but the most flawed attempt at logic, and without a shred of actual evidence. And calling out such outrageous and bigoted slurs as outrageous and bigoted - should not be interpreted as avoiding or apologising for the very real problems posed by, and facing Islam today. In fact, *NOT* acknowledging outrageous bigoted slurs as unacceptable and nonsense directly hinders any attempts to acknowledge and constructively deal with the very real problems faced by and posed by Islam today.

The sad truth of Islam today has enough to condemn itself with without needing to resort to outright lies about it.

I respect your honesty Gandalf and I've always understood your point believe it or not.


I do believe it Hammer. And believe it or not I've actually always found you one of the more reasonable people to debate with here.

Thank you. You have a very pinpoint logic. Very impressive. I've met some lovely Muslim people. Particularly  Arab people. Very respectful. I have no problem with good people. good people in this world are gems.


BAN THEM.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Aug 1st, 2019 at 9:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 31st, 2019 at 11:28am:
bump for FD...


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29th, 2019 at 2:29pm:
Now that FD seems to be back, I'd like to highlight a previous post. It goes to the crux of FD's core argument for why every single muslim in the world, man, woman and child, are of one mind in supporting genocide. I thought I articulated this response pretty well, but it seems to have been ignored:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:09am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad.


You are merely offering up one possible way that these muslims rationalise - backed up solely by the single anecdote of what one muslim allegedly thinks. Thats one out of millions. That you are forced to insist that this is the only possible way all these muslims can rationalise - in a desperate bid to avoid having to concede that your claim in the OP is complete BS - is obviously problematic.

There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority. Such rationalising is no more or less legitimate than your claim - which in any case doesn't even come close to justifying the BS claim, which lets face it is nothing but a deliberately offensive smear, in the thread title.


I never said they were of one mind. That is your mindless collective strawman again. Muslims are very creative in finding ways to support genocide. You also lie when you suggest I am basing this on one single Muslim supporting genocide.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 8:22am

freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 9:19pm:
I never said they were of one mind. That is your mindless collective strawman again.


This is a description of muslims who don't believe the massacre happened being "of one mind" FD:

They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both

There doesn't seem to be much diversity of opinion offered there - just all "they would be saying..." and "so instead they say...". Not even the pretense of qualification by use of a "some" or even "most".

Whats worse is you don't even consider that this is only one plausible way of rationalising, and that . There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority.


freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 9:19pm:
You also lie when you suggest I am basing this on one single Muslim supporting genocide.


Each time you say this, and each time I ask you to offer an example of a muslim saying the things you alleged other than me - you come up short FD. You have never once quoted a single other muslim as evidence in this entire thread. That is a fact. Rather your main argument strategy has been to think that the onus on me is to prove a negative - by constantly demanding me to come up with a muslim who doesn't support genocide, and posing your stupid rhetorical question "I've never met a muslim who doesn't support it - have you?"

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 8:39am



http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1543371381/490#490



QUESTION      [to anyone];
Does the teacher in the mosque teach and promote ISLAMIC law ?

And does he teach and promote the precepts of ISLAM, which are found within the Koran ?



To say,       "all muslims support genocide"      is simply recognising that;


Every moslem is a moslem.     .....i.e.  A FOLLOWER OF ISLAM.




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 8:56am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 8:22am:


freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 9:19pm:

You also lie when you suggest I am basing this on one single Muslim supporting genocide.


Each time you say this, and each time I ask you to offer an example of a muslim saying the things you alleged other than me - you come up short FD.

You have never once quoted a single other muslim as evidence in this entire thread.

That is a fact.

Rather your main argument strategy has been to think that the onus on me is to prove a negative - by constantly demanding me to come up with a muslim who doesn't support genocide, and posing your stupid rhetorical question "I've never met a muslim who doesn't support it - have you?"



gandalf,

I have seen numerous examples of moslems saying that ISLAM is a peaceful faith.


Is it PROOF ?        .....that ISLAM is a peaceful faith ?

If multiple moslems MAKE THAT CLAIM ?



.



EXAMPLE;



IMAGE.....


Australian Grand Mufti Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohammed


Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1444453452/0#0

Quote:

Grand Mufti of Australia assures Aussies, ISLAM is peace


The Grand Mufti of Australia assures Aussies;

"We moslems refuse and reject any form of terrorist activities"



IMAGE.....


Australian Grand Mufti Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohammed




.



EXAMPLE;


Quote:

“Peace and love are at the center of our religion, as evidenced by scripture and history,...”

- Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah
CITED... https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/02/uae-forum-promotes-dubious-islamic-peace



.



EXAMPLE;

"ISLAM ES PAZ"


IMAGE.....




.



EXAMPLE;


Quote:

"Peace summarises everything in Islam, because it means

submitting your will to God,

so you acquire peace through it," he said.

"When I'm following its [i.e. ISLAM's] teachings,

I know that my own actions are in line     with what my creator wants,

and hence I am at peace with myself, [with] my community and the rest of the world."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-19/darwins-muslim-community-tackles-discrimination-at-meeting/6025586?section=nt




IMAGE....



Quote:

"Mr Yunus has been encouraging peaceful community bridging since starting his post as Darwin's Islamic leader in 2014."
- ABC news report - 2015-01-19



QUOTE;
"Peace summarises everything in Islam..."

- Mr Yunus



.




EXAMPLE;

IMAGE.....


Ali Kadri - Islamic Council of Queensland vice-president,
features in The Mosque Next Door on SBS.





Quote:

"There's no underlying religious text or reasons why [moslems] go out and kill people......"

- Ali Kadri
------- >
https://www.northernstar.com.au/news/we-wont-stop-terrorist-attacks-by-blaming-islam/3259588/









Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Yadda on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:06am



"All Muslims support genocide" - - TICK from Yadda


All moslems are pathological liars [when it comes to moslems, speaking to non-moslems, about ISLAM]. - - TICK from Yadda



AND, I'VE GOT PLENTY OF PROOF.             8-)




.




IMAGE....


Yassmin Abdel-Magied


"ISLAM is the most feminist religion" - Yassmin Abdel-Magied





Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 7:07pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 8:22am:

freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 9:19pm:
I never said they were of one mind. That is your mindless collective strawman again.


This is a description of muslims who don't believe the massacre happened being "of one mind" FD:

They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both

There doesn't seem to be much diversity of opinion offered there - just all "they would be saying..." and "so instead they say...". Not even the pretense of qualification by use of a "some" or even "most".

Whats worse is you don't even consider that this is only one plausible way of rationalising, and that . There is no reason why I can't simply say, alternatively, that like just about every other religious minority, they have no problem whatsoever in insisting that their version is the right one, and no problem whatsoever in saying the others are wrong, and therefore invalid - even if they are in the majority.


freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2019 at 9:19pm:
You also lie when you suggest I am basing this on one single Muslim supporting genocide.


Each time you say this, and each time I ask you to offer an example of a muslim saying the things you alleged other than me - you come up short FD. You have never once quoted a single other muslim as evidence in this entire thread. That is a fact. Rather your main argument strategy has been to think that the onus on me is to prove a negative - by constantly demanding me to come up with a muslim who doesn't support genocide, and posing your stupid rhetorical question "I've never met a muslim who doesn't support it - have you?"


So if I say that all Muslims think Muhammad is a good man, I am accusing them of being a mindless collective?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:37pm
No but you are undeniably depicting them as "of one mind" on that point.

Why do you think muslims who don't believe Muhammad committed a massacre feel compelled to accept that the atrocity-committing version of other muslims - must also be a good man?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 10:27pm

Quote:
Why do you think muslims who don't believe Muhammad committed a massacre feel compelled to accept that the atrocity-committing version of other muslims - must also be a good man?


You just quoted me explaining why. I have given you the same explanation a dozen times.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 12:53pm
Allahu Akbar” is not “innocent” or “innocuous.” It’s at the core of what makes Islam violent.

To understand the violent history of “Allahu Akbar”, let’s climb into a time machine and go back to the year 628 and to a place that will one day be known as Saudi Arabia. It’s hot out here in the desert. Temperatures from the spring to the fall routinely cross the hundred degree mark and keep going.

We’re in Khaybar. It’s a desert oasis maintained by the Jews. If being in 109 degree heat has got you down, you stop by the oasis, and have a cool drink of water and some dates. Then you keep going. Out here trade runs through the desert and the oasis is a gas station. If you want to choke off major trade routes, you go after an oasis. And that’s what a cult leader whose followers today terrorize the world by attacking its travel routes, airline hijackings, pirates preying on ships, train and bus bombs, was doing.

Muslims call what happened next, the “Battle of Khaybar”. Like most Muslim battles, it was a treacherous ambush and a massacre. And it helps explain why there are no Jews in Saudi Arabia today. Nor do Muslims regret this act of ethnic cleansing. Instead they celebrate it. Muslims still threaten Jews by chanting, “Khaybar, Khaybar ya Yahud.” "Remember Khaybar, Jews, Mohammed’s Army Will Return."

And “Allahu Akbar?”

That’s what Mohammed shouted as he realized that his surprise attack had been successful. "Allahu-Akbar! Khaybar is destroyed.” He boasted that any nation attacked by Muslims would suffer a similar fate. And then he “had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives”. Mohammed also picked up his own sex slave. “Safiya was amongst the captives. She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet.” Safiya’s husband had been murdered. Like their ISIS successors, the Prophet of Islam’s band of killers and rapists took the women as slaves.

That’s where “Allahu Akbar” originated. And that’s why Muslims still shout it at terrorist attacks.

Allahu Akbar does not mean “God is Great.” It means “Allah is Greater”. What was Allah greater than at Khaybar? Allah was greater than the religion of the Jews because Mohammed was able to defeat them.
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/268309/allahu-akbar-motive-islamic-terror-daniel-greenfield

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm

freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 10:27pm:

Quote:
Why do you think muslims who don't believe Muhammad committed a massacre feel compelled to accept that the atrocity-committing version of other muslims - must also be a good man?


You just quoted me explaining why. I have given you the same explanation a dozen times.


you mean this?


Quote:
They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both


so lets break it down further then. Why would muslims who believe the vast majority of muslims believe in an evil man be put "in a difficult position" - that somehow necessitates them to say that both version of Muhammad are good men? You certainly haven't explained that part, and it makes no sense at all. Most minorities within a religious group are perfectly comfortable insisting that the other guys have it wrong.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 10:22pm
Ah. Good question. For that you'd have to quote the rest of the explanation, which you inexplicably left out. Keep trying Gandalf. You'll get there eventually.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 10:38pm

freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 10:22pm:
Ah. Good question. For that you'd have to quote the rest of the explanation, which you inexplicably left out. Keep trying Gandalf. You'll get there eventually.


Good point FD, that would be this...


Quote:
That's why you offered up your "academic" support for Muhammad's genocide at the same time as denying it. They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.


sorry FD, still no clearer. This, by the way, along with the previous part I quoted consists of the entire post I am quoting.

Next time, best to actually get a grasp of what you think I'm quoting before pulling out the old 'out of context' card.

Instead of playing and failing at the smart arsery game all the time, how about you give answering the actual question a go?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 10:55pm
After answering the same stupid question a dozen times it starts to wear thin Gandalf. I guess you'll have to quote one of my many other answers.

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 11:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 10:27pm:

Quote:
Why do you think muslims who don't believe Muhammad committed a massacre feel compelled to accept that the atrocity-committing version of other muslims - must also be a good man?


You just quoted me explaining why. I have given you the same explanation a dozen times.


you mean this?

[quote]They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both


so lets break it down further then. Why would muslims who believe the vast majority of muslims believe in an evil man be put "in a difficult position" - that somehow necessitates them to say that both version of Muhammad are good men? You certainly haven't explained that part, and it makes no sense at all. Most minorities within a religious group are perfectly comfortable insisting that the other guys have it wrong.

[/quote]
There  is nothing in Islam but resentment. It is a reactionary cult. It has no new positive to offer.  It is entirely about subjugation.
Looking at its devotees, it's  evil preached into the world.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 11:30pm

freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 10:55pm:
After answering the same stupid question a dozen times it starts to wear thin Gandalf. I guess you'll have to quote one of my many other answers.


And where would those be FD? - in that same mysterious black hole as the posts you made using evidence other than my alleged beliefs I suppose.

Thats fine FD, but why did you lie about the rest of that quote explaining everything? Or is it that you really have no idea?

If you are really that clueless and/or dishonest about your own words, how can you expect to engage in anything resembling a coherent debate?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Aug 4th, 2019 at 8:37am
You are turning into a compulsive liar Gandalf. Here is the whole post, with the rest of the explanation - the same explanation I have offered plenty of times earlier.


freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:19am:
Because it makes a question of historical fact, in which they are the minority among Muslims, the only barrier to them concluding that Muhammad was evil. They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad. That's why you offered up your "academic" support for Muhammad's genocide at the same time as denying it. They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it. 


Also, what happened you your "most notorious and large scale cases" of genocide in history?


freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2019 at 1:54pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 5:48pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 8:16am:
I am not that familiar with the details.


Interesting. For someone so obsessed about genocide you are surprisingly unfamiliar with the most notorious and large scale cases of it in history.


Are you talking about Tasmanian Aborigines?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War


Quote:
The Black War was the period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Australians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832. The conflict, fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides, claimed the lives of more than 200 European colonists and between 600 and 900 Aboriginal people, nearly annihilating the island's indigenous population.[2][3] The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians, and the frequent incidence of mass killings, has sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide.[4]


600 to 900 eh? Perhaps an angel told them to do it.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Aug 4th, 2019 at 11:06am

freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2019 at 8:37am:
the same explanation I have offered plenty of times earlier.


The same explanation that makes no sense whatsoever:


freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2019 at 8:37am:
Because it makes a question of historical fact, in which they are the minority among Muslims, the only barrier to them concluding that Muhammad was evil.


I have asked you to explain this before. It makes no effing sense. It is complete jibberish.

I have no idea what you are saying, but it seems to be something vaguely along the lines of arguing that being a minority view somehow makes them less confident of the truth, and therefore makes them feel they have to give some sort of deference to the majority view - the view that they paradoxically reject and despise. Is that the general gist?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Aug 4th, 2019 at 1:26pm

Quote:
I have asked you to explain this before. It makes no effing sense. It is complete jibberish.


So you denied the words existed?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Aug 4th, 2019 at 6:23pm
Try again FD:

I have no idea what you are saying, but it seems to be something vaguely along the lines of arguing that being a minority view somehow makes them less confident of the truth, and therefore makes them feel they have to give some sort of deference to the majority view - the view that they paradoxically reject and despise. Is that the general gist?

Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Aug 4th, 2019 at 6:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 4th, 2019 at 6:23pm:
Try again FD:

I have no idea what you are saying, but it seems to be something vaguely along the lines of arguing that being a minority view somehow makes them less confident of the truth, and therefore makes them feel they have to give some sort of deference to the majority view - the view that they paradoxically reject and despise. Is that the general gist?



Here we go - try to sort out the endless 'tiny minority, vast majority' this and that among Muslims and you will invariably be wrong, according to this or that minority/majority Muslim.

It''s an endless shell game - where's the pea, is it a majority or a minority pea?. Whatever you say you'll turn out wrong because there is some other Muslims minority/majority divide you haven't addressed, probably because you don't speak classical Arabic or some such nonsense. Everything is a haggle, everything is a yea but no but when discussing Islam with a Muslim. The one thing they will never do is take responsibility. Oh, no. Responsibility is always with the non-Muslims for the way Islam is in the world.






Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by polite_gandalf on Aug 4th, 2019 at 6:44pm
Can you understand this Frank - this answer to the question why muslims who don't believe the Banu Qurayza massacre happened somehow still feel compelled to think that a theoretical Muhammad who did commit the massacre should be supported...?

Because it makes a question of historical fact, in which they are the minority among Muslims, the only barrier to them concluding that Muhammad was evil. They would be saying that the Muhammad that the vast majority believe in is an evil man and they believe in a different version of him, but that puts them in a difficult position, so instead they say both versions of Muhammad are good men and they support the supposed actions of both, but theirs is merely the better Muhammad. That's why you offered up your "academic" support for Muhammad's genocide at the same time as denying it. They all deny it was genocide in some way, and they all continue to support it.


Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by Frank on Aug 4th, 2019 at 7:25pm
Mohammed was a bloody warlord and a sexual predator. He was an opportunistic liar.  You hitched your life to him.



Can you understand that?




Title: Re: All Muslims support genocide
Post by freediver on Aug 4th, 2019 at 9:34pm