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Global warming, the science and the consequences (Read 29159 times)
Moriaty
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #330 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:10pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
Or do you think waters north of Australia can conduct heat to waters south of Tasmania?


The East Australian Current does so in summer when it can reach speeds of 3-4 knots and sweeps hot water from the tropical north to southern regions inclusive of Tasmania (hence the recent POMS outbreak) and NZ.


Quote:
Your problem is an inability to think.


I like this quote. A lot.  Grin
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #331 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:12pm
 
Moriaty wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:10pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
Or do you think waters north of Australia can conduct heat to waters south of Tasmania?


The East Australian Current does so in summer when it can reach speeds of 3-4 knots and sweeps hot water from the tropical north to southern regions inclusive of Tasmania (hence the recent POMS outbreak) and NZ.


Quote:
Your problem is an inability to think.


I like this quote. A lot.  Grin


That is not conduction tho. And the heat is still in the ocean: energy cannot be created or destroyed.
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lee
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #332 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:16pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
But in defined bands,



Well who woudda thunk? And that's just SST's. Wink And some of those swathes are sooo narrow.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
Your problem is an inability to think.



So tell us about those broad swathes of land based temperatures for all of Australia. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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Moriaty
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #333 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:17pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:12pm:
That is not conduction tho. And the heat is still in the ocean: energy cannot be created or destroyed.


The method of transfer is irrelevant. You claimed the heat cannot be transferred. The semantics are irrelevant to the physics.

Energy can be created. It is what our sun does via nuclear fusion.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #334 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:19pm
 
I said the surface couldn’t conduct heat away! Don’t put words in my mouth, OK?
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lee
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #335 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:21pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:12pm:
And the heat is still in the ocean: energy cannot be created or destroyed.



But the CO2 outgassing must contain the extra heat. Wink

BTW - the true quote is "Energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only be transformed from one form to another".

Wink
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Moriaty
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #336 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:26pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:21pm:
BTW - the true quote is "Energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only be transformed from one form to another".

Wink


Correct. And in the case of oceanic warming, the process has been delayed by algae using the extra heat energy to grow at an increased rate. Which has thrown out the global warming/ocean warming modelling by a significant degree.
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Moriaty
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #337 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:39pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:23pm:
Even the seas can’t get rid of heat much except by radiation. While molecules in a fluid move much faster than molecules in a solid the options are limited there too. Looking at heat maps you see huge swathes of ocean are pretty much the same temperature (pretty much, doubt really detailed fine–grained temperature records are available) such as “hot waters on the eastern side of the Pacific etc so conduction is out. Convection doesn’t come into it. Some heat might be lost to deep ocean waters but studies indicate there isn’t much mixing. While oceans can lose heat to the air or by condensation (latent heat) again most is directly or indirectly (air heated by the warm ocean) lost by radiation.


uhmm no. This would be conduction between the water and air. Evaporation leads to heat loss, but this isn't classed as radiation. A good example would be tropical storms gaining energy via the transfer of heat (via conduction) from a body of water to the air mass above it.

Radiation involves heat transfer through the generation of photons.

A good example of convection based heat transfer is the cold water upwellings on the east coast of Oz during winter. The westerly winds push the warm water offshore, causing the cold bottom waters to upwell and mix with the warm surface waters. Hence the algal blooms in winter.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #338 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:44pm
 
I know, but I was talking about conduction and as we agreed the heat still stays on the surface (ground, sea, atmosphere.) Only way the planet can lose heat is to radiate it out to space.

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Moriaty
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #339 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:59pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:44pm:
I know, but I was talking about conduction and as we agreed the heat still stays on the surface (ground, sea, atmosphere.) Only way the planet can lose heat is to radiate it out to space.



True. But the heat from the oceans can get to the upper troposphere via (very limited) conduction. And then it can radiate away.

Or it can be used by organisms which convert the heat/infra-red energy into chemical energy and store it in the food chain like algae do or to generate physical "containers" like diatom skeletons which end up in the sediment post-death.

The real issue in my view is the lack of adequate whole-of-system modelling which had given the climate skeptics an advantage, namely the failure of the climate models to provide accurate near-term predictions.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #340 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 12:06am
 
Too much noise in the weather record I think.
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #341 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 12:28am
 
As the globe warms and the tropics get wetter you would expect mosquito borne diseases to spread and hit more people. Yup:

Quote:
Researchers are using the unprecedented outbreak to study the emerging disease in real time. And they’re uncovering lessons that could buy time for health officials to mobilize a response to mosquito-borne disease before another outbreak occurs.

Beard explained that Zika infections, like almost all diseases spread by mosquitoes, hinge on two variables: infected hosts and capable carriers.

For Zika to spread, a mosquito that’s able to carry the virus has to bite a person already carrying it. The virus then needs enough time to reproduce inside the mosquito. The insect then has to bite an uninfected person. Health officials have also found that the virus can be spread sexually.

This means that people are key to spreading the disease across borders and oceans—not just mosquitoes.

“The virus was introduced by infected travelers returning to the United States from an area with active Zika transmission,” Beard said. “Because this was the first global outbreak of Zika virus, virtually everyone in the United States (and globally) had not been infected and was therefore susceptible to infection.”

Predicting human behavior is difficult, so some scientists focused on the mosquito.
The number of Aedes mosquitoes rises and falls depending on temperature and rainfall, so researchers reasoned that climate variables could portend their spread.
In a paper published earlier this month in the journal Frontiers in Microbiology, researchers asked, “Could the recent zika epidemic have been predicted?”

The short answer is no.

However, they used climate data from afflicted regions to build a model for Aedes populations. That helped researchers highlight potential infection hot spots for mosquito-borne disease transmission one to three months in advance.

“Both the mosquitos that transmit Zika and the virus itself are climate-sensitive,” said co-author Ángel Muñoz, a postdoctoral research associate in atmospheric and oceanic science at Princeton University, in an email.

“High temperatures, like the ones observed during the record-breaking years 2015 and 2016, generally increase the virus replication rates and also the speed of mosquito reproduction,” he explained. “The overall effect of high temperatures is an increase in the potential risk of transmission.”

There are three main time scales to consider when it comes to warming: annual temperature variation from factors like warming in the Pacific Ocean during El Niño years, decadal temperature swings and long-term temperature increases from global warming.
Last year, all three trends were on an upswing, leading to an unusually potent brew for diseases carried by Aedes mosquitoes.

There were also paradoxes. It rained a lot last year, a trait that would seem to drive mosquito populations and the virus. But that didn’t necessarily happen.

“We had very high rates of Zika transmission where it was very warm and very dry,” said co-author Madeleine Thomson, a senior research scientist at the International Research Institute for Climate and Society at Columbia University. “In poor areas, people don’t necessarily have access to good running water, so they store water, and that water storage increases [mosquito] breeding sites.”

On the other hand, periods of heavy rain created stagnant water pools that became ideal breeding sites for Aedes mosquitoes.

With these factors in mind, researchers constructed a computer model and tested it to see how well its projections aligned with how the virus actually spread. They could see climate signals of an outbreak a month ahead of time and, in some geographical areas, as much as three months before it might happen.

There are a few caveats. The scientists said the model could forecast at the country level and for some large regions, but it does not provide useful enough information at smaller scales, like cities or villages.

They also note that Aedes mosquitoes also spread dengue and chikungunya, two other notorious tropical diseases, so the model effectively measures risks of all three diseases rather than any one of them alone.


http://www.eenews.net/
(reprinted by Scientific American)
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #342 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 12:30am
 
Quote:
“High temperatures, like the ones observed during the record-breaking years 2015 and 2016, generally increase the virus replication rates and also the speed of mosquito reproduction,” he explained. “The overall effect of high temperatures is an increase in the potential risk of transmission.”

There are three main time scales to consider when it comes to warming: annual temperature variation from factors like warming in the Pacific Ocean during El Niño years, decadal temperature swings and long-term temperature increases from global warming.
Last year, all three trends were on an upswing, leading to an unusually potent brew for diseases carried by Aedes mosquitoes.

There were also paradoxes. It rained a lot last year, a trait that would seem to drive mosquito populations and the virus. But that didn’t necessarily happen.

“We had very high rates of Zika transmission where it was very warm and very dry,” said co-author Madeleine Thomson, a senior research scientist at the International Research Institute for Climate and Society at Columbia University. “In poor areas, people don’t necessarily have access to good running water, so they store water, and that water storage increases [mosquito] breeding sites.”

On the other hand, periods of heavy rain created stagnant water pools that became ideal breeding sites for Aedes mosquitoes.

With these factors in mind, researchers constructed a computer model and tested it to see how well its projections aligned with how the virus actually spread. They could see climate signals of an outbreak a month ahead of time and, in some geographical areas, as much as three months before it might happen.

There are a few caveats. The scientists said the model could forecast at the country level and for some large regions, but it does not provide useful enough information at smaller scales, like cities or villages.

They also note that Aedes mosquitoes also spread dengue and chikungunya, two other notorious tropical diseases, so the model effectively measures risks of all three diseases rather than any one of them alone.

Since Zika is a new disease in the Americas, it’s still too early to tell whether it will follow in the footsteps of its cousins or forge its own path through the Americas or around the world.
“The model is not going to differentiate whether it’s Zika or dengue or chikungunya,” Thomson said. “It’s just telling you that transmission suitability is up.”

She added that the key to filling in the blanks with infection forecasts is better data, getting more granular information over smaller regions and measuring over different time scales.
As the climate changes and humanity becomes more mobile across the planet, health officials are bracing for viruses like Zika to take root in new environs and for new infections to emerge in its wake.

“We are seeing an accelerated threat from mosquito-borne diseases overall,” said the CDC’s Beard. “Over the past few decades, we have seen a resurgence of dengue and the introduction of West Nile, chikungunya, and now Zika virus into the Western Hemisphere.”
“It is very hard to determine which one might come next—Zika virus wasn’t on anyone’s radar screen before it became an international threat,” he added. “What we do know is that in this age of globalization, more will be coming—we just don’t know from where or when.”


http://www.eenews.net/
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lee
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #343 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 12:06pm
 
Yep. Just like malaria is a tropical disease. Wink
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Re: Global warming, the science and the consequences
Reply #344 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 11:37pm
 
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