Australian Politics Forum - Love in the Koran

freediver

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #75 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 8:44am

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:20am:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 7:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 7:19pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 5:20pm:

The Pew survey is evidence of this.

Lets start with child marriage.

Please show me the Pew survey on muslims universally or widely believing child marriage is acceptable.

After that we can move on to domestic violence.

The vast majority of Muslims believe Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl. Only a small minority such as yourself hold the mother of Islam to be a liar.

Thats not the pew survey FD. Try again, or retract your BS claim. Here it is again:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 5:20pm:

Quote:
Where is your evidence that [child marriage or domestic violence] either are universally, or even widely accepted by muslims worldwide?

The Pew survey is evidence of this.

Please show me the actual pew survey that demonstrates muslims "either universally or even widely" accepting child marriage and domestic violence.

I did not say the Pew survey is the only evidence available. Am I not allowed to use the beliefs of Muslims as evidence of what Muslims believe, on account of mentioning the survey?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Love in the Koran Reply #76 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 9:19am So you are backpeddling your claim that the Pew survey is evidence of widespread muslim support for child marriage and domestic violence. Otherwise you would have produced the survey by now. You could just say that FD.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50981 At my desk.	Re: Love in the Koran Reply #77 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 9:25am Fair enough. I am back pedalling. The view of Muslims on Muhammed having sex with a 9 year old girl is far better evidence. Happy now?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Love in the Koran Reply #78 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 9:33am So why did you mention the pew survey? Its a bit like stating as fact that government school funds go to terrorists without having a shred of evidence wouldn't you say? We're seeing a bit of a pattern here FD. Do you think you have a bit of a credibility issue?
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Love in the Koran Reply #79 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:27pm Why go to PEW.... why not go straight to the source for examples and reasons. Feel free to correct the errors in this article, I found a couple but not many. Quote: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contemporary_Pedophilic_Islamic_Marriages
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50981 At my desk.	Re: Love in the Koran Reply #80 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:36pm polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 9:33am: So why did you mention the pew survey? Because it actually measures Muslims opinions, and makes it hard for the apologists to spew the crap they do about the "vast majority" of Muslims being regular people who just want to eat corn flakes for breakfast.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #81 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:37pm

Grendel wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:27pm:

Why go to PEW...

Good question - FD bought it up, you should ask him. And you can also ask him why after bringing it up he immediately backpeddled when asked for actual evidence.

I suspect its because FD is looking for something other than anecdotes - as even he acknowledges that things like your list of wiki-Islam anecdotes proves nothing in terms of whether there is universal or even widespread support. And worldwide surveys would indeed be good evidence. Pity he couldn't follow through with it.

So the latest is 'all muslims believe Muhammad raped a 9 year old - therefore all muslims approve of child marriage/pedophilia - and probably rape.' Yes, it really is that sophisticated. But I guess he was feeling pretty desperate after such a humiliating backdown on the Pew survey.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #82 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:42pm

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 9:33am:

So why did you mention the pew survey?

Because it actually measures Muslims opinions, and makes it hard for the apologists to spew the crap they do about the "vast majority" of Muslims being regular people who just want to eat corn flakes for breakfast.

Good answer FD - A pew survey showing widespread muslim support for child marriage and domestic violence would indeed stick it to the apologists. Its just a pity it doesn't exist and you lied about it. Even more of a pity this lie of yours was so embarassingly exposed. But its the thought that counts eh?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #83 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 1:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:42pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 9:33am:

So why did you mention the pew survey?

Because it actually measures Muslims opinions, and makes it hard for the apologists to spew the crap they do about the "vast majority" of Muslims being regular people who just want to eat corn flakes for breakfast.

Good answer FD - A pew survey showing widespread muslim support for child marriage and domestic violence would indeed stick it to the apologists. Its just a pity it doesn't exist and you lied about it. Even more of a pity this lie of yours was so embarassingly exposed. But its the thought that counts eh?

No more questions at this time. FD has left the building.

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Grendel

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #84 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 1:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:37pm:

Grendel wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:27pm:

Why go to PEW...

Good question - FD bought it up, you should ask him. And you can also ask him why after bringing it up he immediately backpeddled when asked for actual evidence.

I suspect its because FD is looking for something other than anecdotes - as even he acknowledges that things like your list of wiki-Islam anecdotes proves nothing in terms of whether there is universal or even widespread support. And worldwide surveys would indeed be good evidence. Pity he couldn't follow through with it.

So the latest is 'all muslims believe Muhammad raped a 9 year old - therefore all muslims approve of child marriage/pedophilia - and probably rape.' Yes, it really is that sophisticated. But I guess he was feeling pretty desperate after such a humiliating backdown on the Pew survey.

Ah but a sensible person will read the factual quotes won't they and address their veracity.

I don't think he'd have to back down about anything PEW states in their surveys.

We had a large survey here in Australia too... that was quite an eye opener re Muslim opinions.

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freediver

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #85 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:42pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 9:33am:

So why did you mention the pew survey?

Because it actually measures Muslims opinions, and makes it hard for the apologists to spew the crap they do about the "vast majority" of Muslims being regular people who just want to eat corn flakes for breakfast.

Good answer FD - A pew survey showing widespread muslim support for child marriage and domestic violence would indeed stick it to the apologists. Its just a pity it doesn't exist and you lied about it. Even more of a pity this lie of yours was so embarassingly exposed. But its the thought that counts eh?

And yet the majority of Muslims still believe Aisha when she said she was 9 years old when Muhammed had sex with her. Are you trying to mock me for thinking of the wrong evidence at the same time as conceding I was correct?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #86 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 6:44pm

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:42pm:

And yet the majority of Muslims still believe Aisha when she said she was 9 years old when Muhammed had sex with her.

Even if that was true - it does not automatically follow that the majority of muslims today believe sex with 9 year olds is ok in this day and age. The fact that nearly all muslim majority nations have laws forbidding it is good evidence that they don't.

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:42pm:

Are you trying to mock me for thinking of the wrong evidence at the same time as conceding I was correct?

Firstly you are still wrong about child marriage because of the aforementioned fallacious leap in logic. Secondly you haven't addressed the second part of your BS claim - which was about domestic violence. And I'm pretty sure you've given up on pew on that one too - otherwise we would have seen the relevant survey by now.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Grendel

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #87 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:00pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ins%C4%81n_al-K%C4%81mil

Quote:

"Muhammad's wisdom is uniqueness (fardiya) because he is the most perfect existent creature of this human species. For this reason, the command began with him and was sealed with him. He was a Prophet while Adam was between water and clay, and his elemental structure is the Seal of the Prophets."

One thing that pops up on Islamic sites, frequently is that Muhammad was a perfect man. His life and habits etc... all perfect. LOL even Wiki, has info on it.

Do all Muslims believe this? A majority perhaps?
If so... surely then they would also believe it is perfectly ok to marry a child.

What say you?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #88 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:23pm

Grendel wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:00pm:

One thing that pops up on Islamic sites, frequently is that Muhammad was a perfect man. His life and habits etc... all perfect. LOL even Wiki, has info on it.

Do all Muslims believe this? A majority perhaps?
If so... surely then they would also believe it is perfectly ok to marry a child.

What say you?

I'll respond by referencing a common criticism of Muhammad and Islam - namely that while Muhammad had 11 wives, most muslims believe that muslim men are restricted to 4 wives.

The point being, while Muhammad is hailed as the greatest example for muslims to follow, evidently there are some 'examples' of the Prophet which ordinary muslims are not allowed to follow. And it well illustrates how fallacious is the logic that because muslims believe Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old - therefore sex with 9 year olds is ok for any muslim, in any time or place. The fact is muslims do rationalise this and think up ways to enable them to declare that while it was ok for Muhammad, its not ok for muslims today. However they do this, and whether or not you think they are being hypocritical, dishonest or performing ridiculous mental contortions is irrelevant to the point that they can do it, and they do do it - and this fact makes FD's leap of logic fallacious.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Love in the Koran
Reply #89 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 8:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:42pm:

And yet the majority of Muslims still believe Aisha when she said she was 9 years old when Muhammed had sex with her.

Even if that was true - it does not automatically follow that the majority of muslims today believe sex with 9 year olds is ok in this day and age.

Yet not a single one of those Muslims will say it was wrong for Muhammed to have sex with a 9 year old girl. And Islam compels them to hold open the possibility of returning to officially sanctioned pedophilia if Muslims were ever able to recreate an Islamic State with conditions similar to those of Muhammed (which would never really happen, right?). Islam compels Muslims to navel gaze about whether pedophilia is inherently wrong.

Quote:

The fact that nearly all muslim majority nations have laws forbidding it is good evidence that they don't.

They also forbid slavery. No thanks to Islam of course.

Quote:

Secondly you haven't addressed the second part of your BS claim - which was about domestic violence. And I'm pretty sure you've given up on pew on that one too - otherwise we would have seen the relevant survey by now.

Gandalf, do you reject these verses of the Koran?

Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." Contemporary translations sometimes water down the word 'beat', but it is the same one used in verse 8:12 and clearly means 'to strike'.

Quran (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife (Tafsir).

Quote:

I'll respond by referencing a common criticism of Muhammad and Islam - namely that while Muhammad had 11 wives, most muslims believe that muslim men are restricted to 4 wives.

So Muhammed was a hypocrite. That's great Gandalf. What does it prove?

Quote:

And it well illustrates how fallacious is the logic that because muslims believe Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old - therefore sex with 9 year olds is ok for any muslim, in any time or place. The fact is muslims do rationalise this and think up ways to enable them to declare that while it was ok for Muhammad, its not ok for muslims today. However they do this, and whether or not you think they are being hypocritical, dishonest or performing ridiculous mental contortions is irrelevant to the point that they can do it, and they do do it - and this fact makes FD's leap of logic fallacious.

No you are lying Gandalf. The reason Muslims consider 4 wives to be the limit, despite Muhammed himself having 11 wives, is that Muhammed decreed that 4 wives is the limit for everyone but himself. He made no such decree with pedophilia.

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