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high speed archery - video (Read 5571 times)
freediver
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high speed archery - video
Jan 25th, 2015 at 9:21am
 
impressive


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John Smith
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #1 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 9:37am
 
wow .. impressive. This guy is a freak.
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #2 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 12:35pm
 
Show archery.   War archery was rather different.  Not all archers were trained to this sort of level nor were they expected to be.  Even in England where Archery was raised to a fetish, with State sponsorship and policies intended to foster the use of the Bow amongst the general population, the amount of training was extremely variable.   Mongols OTOH along with most other Steppe nomads were perhaps the closest to this ideal but then they depended on the Bow for their bread and butter.

One point that didn't come out from that video was that the higher the speed, the lower the penetration for any given arrow.  The Archer simply does not have the ability to draw far enough back on each successive shot to get the full power from the bow.  It's also interesting that most of his firing is with modern "gimmicky" bows.  He couldn't do these tricks with a full compound bow or an English long bow, drawing over 120+ lbs nor at the ranges most archers fired at on a battlefield.   Military archery relied primarily on mass, not accuracy for it's effect on the battlefield so most of his stuff is just tricks from that perspective.   He's akin the Wild West sharpshooter - incredibly accurate with loads of trick shots but useless outside of the arena.
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #3 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:32pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 12:35pm:
Show archery.   War archery was rather different.  Not all archers were trained to this sort of level nor were they expected to be.  Even in England where Archery was raised to a fetish, with State sponsorship and policies intended to foster the use of the Bow amongst the general population, the amount of training was extremely variable.   Mongols OTOH along with most other Steppe nomads were perhaps the closest to this ideal but then they depended on the Bow for their bread and butter.

One point that didn't come out from that video was that the higher the speed, the lower the penetration for any given arrow.  The Archer simply does not have the ability to draw far enough back on each successive shot to get the full power from the bow.  It's also interesting that most of his firing is with modern "gimmicky" bows.  He couldn't do these tricks with a full compound bow or an English long bow, drawing over 120+ lbs nor at the ranges most archers fired at on a battlefield.   Military archery relied primarily on mass, not accuracy for it's effect on the battlefield so most of his stuff is just tricks from that perspective.   He's akin the Wild West sharpshooter - incredibly accurate with loads of trick shots but useless outside of the arena.

Could they really pull a bow of 120 lbs?

Also the video briefly mentioned something about pulling with two hands... could they mean two people operating one bow perhaps? They didn't seem to elaborate on this point...
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #4 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:40pm
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:32pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 12:35pm:
Show archery.   War archery was rather different.  Not all archers were trained to this sort of level nor were they expected to be.  Even in England where Archery was raised to a fetish, with State sponsorship and policies intended to foster the use of the Bow amongst the general population, the amount of training was extremely variable.   Mongols OTOH along with most other Steppe nomads were perhaps the closest to this ideal but then they depended on the Bow for their bread and butter.

One point that didn't come out from that video was that the higher the speed, the lower the penetration for any given arrow.  The Archer simply does not have the ability to draw far enough back on each successive shot to get the full power from the bow.  It's also interesting that most of his firing is with modern "gimmicky" bows.  He couldn't do these tricks with a full compound bow or an English long bow, drawing over 120+ lbs nor at the ranges most archers fired at on a battlefield.   Military archery relied primarily on mass, not accuracy for it's effect on the battlefield so most of his stuff is just tricks from that perspective.   He's akin the Wild West sharpshooter - incredibly accurate with loads of trick shots but useless outside of the arena.

Could they really pull a bow of 120 lbs?


English long bows have been recorded at 120+ lbs.  Mongol compound horse bows have been recorded at 150+ lbs draw. 

Quote:
Also the video briefly mentioned something about pulling with two hands... could they mean two people operating one bow perhaps? They didn't seem to elaborate on this point...


I suspect he's referring to a "foot bow", where you sit on your bum and use your feet to hold the bow and you pull back with both hands.   A stunt, not seriously used either in hunting or on the battlefield (for obvious reasons).   Roll Eyes
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #5 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:46pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 12:35pm:
One point that didn't come out from that video was that the higher the speed, the lower the penetration for any given arrow.  The Archer simply does not have the ability to draw far enough back on each successive shot to get the full power from the bow.


he was able to shoot of 3 arrows in quick time and penetrate the chain link armour that was used in those days.

They didn't need to penetrate steel plating.
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #6 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:50pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:46pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 12:35pm:
One point that didn't come out from that video was that the higher the speed, the lower the penetration for any given arrow.  The Archer simply does not have the ability to draw far enough back on each successive shot to get the full power from the bow.


he was able to shoot of 3 arrows in quick time and penetrate the chain link armour that was used in those days.

They didn't need to penetrate steel plating.


It was done at close range and with a fancy gimmicky bow, not a proper recurve or compound bow, nor was the target attempting to defend itself with a shield.   Try it at battle ranges of over 50 metres and see what happens, as he's charging in, with the enemy's own archers firing at the same time.

Its stunt archery, not real archery.    Roll Eyes
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #7 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 5:33pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:50pm:
It was done at close range and with a fancy gimmicky bow, not a proper recurve or compound bow ...


The bows he is using are both a recurve and a shortened long bow.

Compound bows are recent innovations.

The traditional bow in medieval times was a long-bow, although the re-curve bow had been used from about 600bc.
It was used as a cavalry bow by the Mongols, among others.

Archer ranks are probably the weapon, in a sense, that changed the face of warfare in the old days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

They had been successfully used in a number battles prior to Agincourt, but they were always a danger in warfare.

They could perhaps be likened, in old battles, to machine-gun corps - an enemy of the infantry corps.

Like snipers!  Cool


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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #8 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 6:32pm
 
Not sure archers play a huge part in modern warfare, so talk of it not being 'real archery' is not here nor there.  I suppose haters gon' hate.
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #9 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 9:30pm
 
I can see the point about draw force when shooting from a distance - so why not make greater use of leg bows when used as archers are traditionally depicted?

The video appears to suggest that archers would also be of great use on the fringes of the battle where they can still move around easily, and in amongst the battle as it thins out a bit. And in irregular warfare. Not being weighed down with a sword, shield and armour, but still being able to kill at a rapid rate from just outside of hand to hand combat range would be very useful.
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #10 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 10:07pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:50pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:46pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 12:35pm:
One point that didn't come out from that video was that the higher the speed, the lower the penetration for any given arrow.  The Archer simply does not have the ability to draw far enough back on each successive shot to get the full power from the bow.


he was able to shoot of 3 arrows in quick time and penetrate the chain link armour that was used in those days.

They didn't need to penetrate steel plating.


It was done at close range and with a fancy gimmicky bow, not a proper recurve or compound bow, nor was the target attempting to defend itself with a shield.   Try it at battle ranges of over 50 metres and see what happens, as he's charging in, with the enemy's own archers firing at the same time.

Its stunt archery, not real archery.    Roll Eyes


over longer distances he has no need for that sort of speed. I think the whole point was to show that archery wasn't just used over longer distances, but in close quarter combat as well.
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #11 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 11:45pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 10:07pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:50pm:
John Smith wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:46pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 12:35pm:
One point that didn't come out from that video was that the higher the speed, the lower the penetration for any given arrow.  The Archer simply does not have the ability to draw far enough back on each successive shot to get the full power from the bow.


he was able to shoot of 3 arrows in quick time and penetrate the chain link armour that was used in those days.

They didn't need to penetrate steel plating.


It was done at close range and with a fancy gimmicky bow, not a proper recurve or compound bow, nor was the target attempting to defend itself with a shield.   Try it at battle ranges of over 50 metres and see what happens, as he's charging in, with the enemy's own archers firing at the same time.

Its stunt archery, not real archery.    Roll Eyes


over longer distances he has no need for that sort of speed. I think the whole point was to show that archery wasn't just used over longer distances, but in close quarter combat as well.


He's been watching too much Legolas.   I'll put money on a well-armoured infantry soldier with a modicum of training over an archer in close quarter combat any day of the week.  As I keep pointing out, a shield would render his bow impotent and once his arrows are used up, he has to fall back on what ever his secondary weapon is (dagger/sword/mace/etc.)   
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #12 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 11:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 9:30pm:
I can see the point about draw force when shooting from a distance - so why not make greater use of leg bows when used as archers are traditionally depicted?

The video appears to suggest that archers would also be of great use on the fringes of the battle where they can still move around easily, and in amongst the battle as it thins out a bit. And in irregular warfare. Not being weighed down with a sword, shield and armour, but still being able to kill at a rapid rate from just outside of hand to hand combat range would be very useful.


Yet it was the armoured infantry man or cavalry man which dominated the battlefield for thousands of years, FD.

As I keep pointing out, battlefield archery relied on mass firepower, not individual accuracy.  A rain of arrows is impossible to defend against and you don't need to be overly accurate in that situation, you just have to get it downrange and in the general vicinity of the target mass.
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #13 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 11:55pm
 
Lionel Edriess wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 5:33pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:50pm:
It was done at close range and with a fancy gimmicky bow, not a proper recurve or compound bow ...


The bows he is using are both a recurve and a shortened long bow.

Compound bows are recent innovations.


Modern ones are, Lionel.  Traditional compound bows which are composite bows usually made up of a laminate usually of wood and horn, have been around for thousands of years.

Quote:
The traditional bow in medieval times was a long-bow, although the re-curve bow had been used from about 600bc.


Yes.  Recurve bows can be simple or complex, Lionel.  The "traditional bow" in Medieval Europe was the Long-bow but that was only in Europe.  Composite recurves were in use across Asia and the New World at the same period.

Quote:
It was used as a cavalry bow by the Mongols, among others.


Yes.  Mongols were amongst the best bowmen in the world and had some of the heaviest draw bows ever made.

Quote:
Archer ranks are probably the weapon, in a sense, that changed the face of warfare in the old days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

They had been successfully used in a number battles prior to Agincourt, but they were always a danger in warfare.

They could perhaps be likened, in old battles, to machine-gun corps - an enemy of the infantry corps.

Like snipers!  Cool


No, not really.  Snipers rely on single, aimed shots to be effective.  Archery relies on mass firepower and so yes, your likening it to the modern Machine Gun Corps is a good approximation. 

I'd recommend any of Robert Hardy's excellent books on Toxophilia if anybody is interested in serious study of bows.   All are worth reading and as he is one of the world's acknowledged experts on the topic, he seems to know his stuff, particularly WRT to the English and the Long-bow.
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Re: high speed archery - video
Reply #14 - Jan 26th, 2015 at 9:35am
 
Quote:
Yet it was the armoured infantry man or cavalry man which dominated the battlefield for thousands of years, FD.


Hence my comment about it being useful on the fringes of the battle. I am not suggesting they would have replaced infantry with heavier weapons. But getting shot with several arrows while trying to engage in a swordfight would be a bit of a disadvantage. His style of archery would allow someone to rapidly move around the battlefield to where they would be most useful.

Quote:
As I keep pointing out, battlefield archery relied on mass firepower, not individual accuracy.  A rain of arrows is impossible to defend against and you don't need to be overly accurate in that situation, you just have to get it downrange and in the general vicinity of the target mass.


That is the recieved wisdom. He is challenging that view. He hints that competition archery may be partly to blame for the misrepresentation, as there is nothing that reflects close quarters combat.
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