Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1005 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:52pm

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 1:23pm:

Quote:
This is a legitimate criticism and I stand with them in condemning that rationalisation. But where they trip over themselves is in dogmatically assuming that unless muslims reject the example of Muhammad (something muslims cannot do), it is quite impossible for any muslim to say it is wrong to marry a 9 year old today.

Strawman. Muslims say whatever they think people want to hear.

Sorry, I should have said...

where they trip over themselves is in dogmatically assuming that unless muslims reject the example of Muhammad (something muslims cannot do), it is quite impossible for any muslim
they are lying and/or rejecting core islamic doctrine
to say it is wrong to marry a 9 year old today.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1006 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 7:07pm

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It lowers our standards to calumniate him

That's what Islam is all about.

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Just for the record it is my opinion that all Muslim migration to this country should be stopped and that the practice of the religion, and any manifestation of it in public, should be banned.

So you oppose freedom of religion?

Quote:

where they trip over themselves is in dogmatically assuming that unless muslims reject the example of Muhammad (something muslims cannot do), it is quite impossible for any muslim
they are lying and/or rejecting core islamic doctrine
to say it is wrong to marry a 9 year old today.

I wouldn't say that either. I am skeptical. I certainly would not assume that the Grand Mufti for example was saying anything at all about Islam when he insisted the practice should be rejected on legal and ethical grounds. And I still have not figured out how you derive your version of Islam from what all the other Muslims think Islam is, or from Muhammed himself. You shy away from this and from explaining what the "big issues" are that you see with Islam. You also reject "western liberal morals" without any sort of explanation. There is a huge gulf between your Islam and the Islam of other Muslims that have posted here, and so far they are the only ones to offer any real justification that theirs is the "real" or "mainstream" Islam.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1007 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:05pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

In traditional feudal societies, of course, almost ALL marriages would be classed as unconsensual by modern standards. The arranged marriage of children can hardly be described as consensual. Ultimately, this is the difference between Western notions of consent and marriage in traditional societies. We have a completely different idea of relationships, gender roles and sexuality.

One of the biggest taboos in honour-based societies is unmarried sex, or adultery. In Saudi Arabia, this is punishable by death. In countries like India, people take the law into their own hands, and kill women believed to be adulterers. Many girls who have been raped in India commit suicide. In traditional societies, the shame of unmarried sex, and even sexual assault, is placed on women, not men.

It's important to place the arbitrary age for consumation within Islam into this context, but equally, our own arbitrary age of sexual consent has its own context, based on the equality of consenting partners.

'ello, 'ello, 'ello, whassiz then?

Why the bloody hell should we import people from 'traditional feudal, honours based societies' when they are so evidently, even to PBs, are a blot on the cultural landscape of modern societies like ours?

King Kalakua of Hawaii, on a visit to London, he was treated royally, wined and dined on every occasion, dancing with the Princess of Wales, and given precedence over mere princes. This was too much to the Crown Prince of Prussia, who objected to King Kalakua taking precedence over him, a European Prince.

The Prince of Wales retorted: 'Either the brute is a King, or he's a common or garden black person; and, if the latter, what's he doing here?"

Very insensitively put but everyone gets the point. The same with those of our new Australians who are furthest removed from the established and settled mental and cultural traditions of the Britannic heritage in Australia: either they can leave behind the values of their 'traditional feudal, honours based societies' - or else, what the bloody hell are they doing here???

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1008 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:20pm

Soren wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:05pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

In traditional feudal societies, of course, almost ALL marriages would be classed as unconsensual by modern standards. The arranged marriage of children can hardly be described as consensual. Ultimately, this is the difference between Western notions of consent and marriage in traditional societies. We have a completely different idea of relationships, gender roles and sexuality.

One of the biggest taboos in honour-based societies is unmarried sex, or adultery. In Saudi Arabia, this is punishable by death. In countries like India, people take the law into their own hands, and kill women believed to be adulterers. Many girls who have been raped in India commit suicide. In traditional societies, the shame of unmarried sex, and even sexual assault, is placed on women, not men.

It's important to place the arbitrary age for consumation within Islam into this context, but equally, our own arbitrary age of sexual consent has its own context, based on the equality of consenting partners.

'ello, 'ello, 'ello, whassiz then?

Why the bloody hell should we import people from 'traditional feudal, honours based societies' when they are so evidently, even to PBs, are a blot on the cultural landscape of modern societies like ours?

How indeed? We have a thing called laws. And despite 70 pages of mumbo jumbo, you’re at a loss to show how anyone more than a foreign student, a Paki imam and a local dad are a blot on our fine cultural landscape.

Unless, of course, you’d like to go back on your previous magnanimous post which generously excused those of "pigmentation" from the tyranny of Moslem "tintedness".

Shurely shome mishtake, no?

Those from "traditional feudal honour based societies" seem to want to bend over backwards to join in and obey our laws. Just imagine - that 18% of Indians married by 15 completely disappears when they come to Australia.

Why do you think that is, old shap?

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« Last Edit: Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:25pm by Karnal »

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 100476	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #1009 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:32pm Oh - and I must have read your King Kalahua story almost as many times as the Mustapha Khunt one. And you say you don’t subscribe to Punch? Shurely shome mishtake.
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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1010 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:34pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:20pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:05pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

In traditional feudal societies, of course, almost ALL marriages would be classed as unconsensual by modern standards. The arranged marriage of children can hardly be described as consensual. Ultimately, this is the difference between Western notions of consent and marriage in traditional societies. We have a completely different idea of relationships, gender roles and sexuality.

One of the biggest taboos in honour-based societies is unmarried sex, or adultery. In Saudi Arabia, this is punishable by death. In countries like India, people take the law into their own hands, and kill women believed to be adulterers. Many girls who have been raped in India commit suicide. In traditional societies, the shame of unmarried sex, and even sexual assault, is placed on women, not men.

It's important to place the arbitrary age for consumation within Islam into this context, but equally, our own arbitrary age of sexual consent has its own context, based on the equality of consenting partners.

'ello, 'ello, 'ello, whassiz then?

Why the bloody hell should we import people from 'traditional feudal, honours based societies' when they are so evidently, even to PBs, are a blot on the cultural landscape of modern societies like ours?

How indeed? We have a thing called laws.

The laws do not address the very point you brought up - that a large number of people on this earth are culturally alien and have completely different, 'traditional, feudal, honour based values' and not post-Enlightenment (French or British) regard for what matters to people in this and similar societies.

You pointed out the gap, the differance, PB, don't backpedal now, yaw wacist dawg.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1011 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:44pm

Soren wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:34pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:20pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:05pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

In traditional feudal societies, of course, almost ALL marriages would be classed as unconsensual by modern standards. The arranged marriage of children can hardly be described as consensual. Ultimately, this is the difference between Western notions of consent and marriage in traditional societies. We have a completely different idea of relationships, gender roles and sexuality.

One of the biggest taboos in honour-based societies is unmarried sex, or adultery. In Saudi Arabia, this is punishable by death. In countries like India, people take the law into their own hands, and kill women believed to be adulterers. Many girls who have been raped in India commit suicide. In traditional societies, the shame of unmarried sex, and even sexual assault, is placed on women, not men.

It's important to place the arbitrary age for consumation within Islam into this context, but equally, our own arbitrary age of sexual consent has its own context, based on the equality of consenting partners.

'ello, 'ello, 'ello, whassiz then?

Why the bloody hell should we import people from 'traditional feudal, honours based societies' when they are so evidently, even to PBs, are a blot on the cultural landscape of modern societies like ours?

How indeed? We have a thing called laws.

The laws do not address the very point you brought up - that a large number of people on this earth are culturally alien

Yes, but after a generation or two, you learn to fit in.

Not you, old chap, but your sons should be okay. As you say, it has nothing to do with pigmentation.

Your type dies out mercifully quickly, but we enjoy a bit of sport in this country.

Your type does keep us on our toes, old boy. Two world wars and we’ve done alright. Rather than fighting, we’ve learned to.simply let you in.

Rich tapestry, innit. .Personally, I think it’s worth it for your marvellous cheese.

Miam miam.

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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1012 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:06pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 8:44pm:

Yes, but after a generation or two, you learn to fit in.

You are desperate to look even more idiotic and even more tightly packed full of sh!t than you normally do - and that must take some endurance and gritting of teeth but you are the man to take it.

After a generation or two, you say?

After a generation or two - they are orf to Afghanistan, Bosnia, and now Syria, to fight the age-old religious civil war that is Islam. And here you are, the know-bugger-all Vietnam veteran scholar screamer of post-colonial Paki grievance, telling us that they don't actually fight their ancestors' wars after a 'generation or two.

They were over there looking for ancient Greek ruins and whaddaya know, war broke out! Now they are distributing clean water to orphaned Christians and Jews with suicide belts on for reasons of quaint 'feaudal, traditional' purposes, the meaning of which is as strange to them as to any suburban Vietnam veteran PB.

You are a parody of yourself. Not many people can do that. Be proud.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 100476	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #1013 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:42pm Now now, old chap, speak for yourself. You are a Freudian, after all. As tightly packed as it must feel, we must have hope, no?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1014 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 10:35am

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 7:07pm:

I am skeptical. I certainly would not assume that the Grand Mufti for example was saying anything at all about Islam when he insisted the practice should be rejected on legal and ethical grounds.

Skepticism is one thing and is fair enough. Blatantly putting words in his mouth and insisting that he was "pointing out" that his condemnation had nothing to do with islam is quite a different matter.

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 7:07pm:

And I still have not figured out how you derive your version of Islam from what all the other Muslims think Islam is,

And what "all the other Muslims" would that be? Abu and Falah? You have all but admitted that your knowledge of islam comes almost entirely from your interrogations conversations with 3 or so muslims on this forum. If you actually ventured outside of here and garnered something reflecting a "representative sample" of muslim opinions on other forums, blogs, articles - or even in the real world - you might be surprised how "mainstream" my opinions actually are.

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 7:07pm:

You also reject "western liberal morals"

False. This howler is particularly shocking given my posting history, and the countless times I have promoted and defended aspects of "western liberal morals".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1015 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:02am

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 10:35am:

False. This howler is particularly shocking given my posting history, and the countless times I have promoted and defended aspects of "western liberal morals".

True, but as a Muselman, you must worship and obey your sinister prophet, no?

You are commanded to disobey all other laws, kill the infidel and take his daughters as sex slaves.

Not that there's anything wrong with it. Rich tapestry, innit.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #1016 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:10am The really sad part about that K, is with just a few very minor modifications that would have passed for one of Brother Pete's or Yadda's standard posts.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1017 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:43am

Removing the age of consent would actually make a lot of sense. Numerous writers in the sexual assault field have argued that age of consent laws are just an arbitrary "line in the sand".

Children do have sex under the age of consent. Adults do engage in sexually exploitative behaviour against other adults. We have criteria for sexual assault - why do we need a legal age that defines anything beneath this age as unconsensual?

This actually causes more harm than good, particularly when it's coming to light that the bulk of the sexual assault of children is done by other children.

Traditional/feudal marriage is little more than the transfer of ownership of girls from the parents of one family to another. In this setting, consent is irrelevant. It's a model based on a form of slavery. It constitutes the basis of marriage in our own history, and it is the basis of marriage in developing countries throughout the world today. Millions of pre-pubescent girls are married this way each year in India alone.

This is a totally different phenomenon to age of consent laws and the issue of consent itself. The age of consent in India is 18, but most are married before that age. In India, there is the law, and there is cultural practice, and the two rarely meet when it comes to the treatment, marriage and sexual assault of women.

Lifting age of consent laws in the West would allow a legal framework for sexual assault to be based around the actual criteria for sexual assault, rather than an arbitrary age. At present, we have an entire state aparatus for reporting and investigating underage sexual relationships, but these relationships almost never make it to prosecution. Most cases are not even substantiated as the parties in underage relationships refuse to speak to investigators.

Underage relationships occupy a grey world where consent is not defined. Consent is technically illegal, but investigators still describe these relationships as consensual, depending, usually, on age difference.

This is a huge problem in the West. Pru Goward, it seems, wants a crackdown on all underage relationships, but this is impossible in the current system. If children themselves don't talk, there is nothing Community Services, police or parents can do.

This is the problem with having an arbitrary age for consent. Kids can, and do, consent to sex and sexual relationships. The grown-ups have different ideas. The traditional/feudal solution to this problem is/was underage marriage. Marry the kids off young.

Our own "solution" is a complex legal, administrative and investigative system that usually comes up with no reponse at all.

Neither of these solutions are fair or practical in the modern world.

As kids develop and become "sexualized" at younger and younger ages, something has to give. The Victorians put the median age of puberty at 17. Today, it's 13 for boys and 12 for girls.

Having an age of consent only complicates things.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1018 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:44am

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:10am:

The really sad part about that K, is with just a few very minor modifications that would have passed for one of Brother Pete's or Yadda's standard posts.

True, G. The only modification would be the addition of a few Bible quotes and a photo: BEHEAD ALL THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET.

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Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #1019 - Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:48am

Karnal wrote on Mar 21^st, 2014 at 11:43am:

Numerous writers in the sexual assault field have argued that age of consent laws are just an arbitrary "line in the sand".

Arbitrary, yes in many cases. However, I would much rather have a higher age of consent in order to protect those who are not mature enough to know better, and to protect potential victims from predators. basically, the protection of the innocent 17 (16,15 etc.) year old is more valuable for me than the right of young people to have sex

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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