Australian Politics Forum - Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp

freediver

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Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp
Reply #120 - Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:22pm

Stratos wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:21pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

It is a symbol of Morsi's election victory and a return to the good old days.

It's a solidarity symbol for the people who were massacred. The R4bia massacre

Never heard of it. Was it done by text message?

That's the problem with symbols - people tend to attach their own meaning to them.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp Reply #121 - Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:10pm well, just a thought, but maybe the sign that clearly says R4bia and has a website on it, might just be talking about the event it was names after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R4BIA_Massacre
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp
Reply #122 - Feb 5^th, 2014 at 1:36pm

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

What happened there Gandalf?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 8:56am:

And since you have singularly failed to relate this in any way to "judging muslims by actions, not views" - despite repeated requests to do so, I will be moving this whole discussion to where it belongs - in the Egyptian protest thread.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

The context was the number of placards supporting each, and how you would interpret that. I have explained to you many times now that it was for context.

How many beheading placards were there FD? 2? 3? Out of an estimated 200 people - well golly gosh thats about the same ratio as 100 protestors with 1 democracy placard. What does that say FD?

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

Half of the protestors may well be in support of Morsi retaking Egypt violently and installing himself as dictator.

Yes, clearly these people are pro violence - as indicated by all the pro-peace and anti violent coup placards, as well as the street theatre portraying the brutality of the coup.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

Protesting against an undemocratic event does not necessarily mean you support democracy in principle, and you do not have to be pro-democracy to rally against it.

I agree 100% - and thats the point you continue to misunderstand - whether or not these people are sincere about their calls for democracy is completely beside the point. The only point I am trying to get across is that they are undeniably staging a protest in support of democracy. I never once said that these people are luvvy duvvy progressives who have an innate support for democracy.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

Quote:
It simply isn't relevant to the fact that in this protest they are clearly demonstrating in support of democracy

An earlier post from Gandalf:

Quote:
The protestors clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy

Nice backpedaling there Gandalf.

Oh look, FD wants to quibble over the use of the word "indicate". Do you think its just *POSSIBLE* that you can "indicate support" for something without being genuine about it? Neither of those statements says anything at all about their true motives, merely the simple and undeniable fact that the actual protest is about supporting democracy. Of course they may be lying and/or being hypocritical, who the hell knows? Its completely irrelevant to the simple point I've been making.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

What I asked is how they "clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy"

I know its extremely difficult to comprehend - but people holding a demonstration against an attack on a democratically elected President, while promoting such things as "peace" and "justice" and "freedom" and "democracy", then this clearly indicates that their concern is Egyptian democracy. Or to put it another way, it clearly shows that they are demonstrating in support of democracy.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp
Reply #123 - Feb 5^th, 2014 at 10:29pm

Quote:

How many beheading placards were there FD? 2? 3? Out of an estimated 200 people - well golly gosh thats about the same ratio as 100 protestors with 1 democracy placard. What does that say FD?

That's what I was asking you Gandalf. Though I am glad you understand the question now.

Quote:

I agree 100% - and thats the point you continue to misunderstand - whether or not these people are sincere about their calls for democracy is completely beside the point. The only point I am trying to get across is that they are undeniably staging a protest in support of democracy.

You also made a claim about what their concern really is - in direct response to my question about whether they were genuinely concerned about democracy, or merely supporters of Morsi whose views happen to coincide in this instance, and you have been backpedaling ever since.

Quote:

I never once said that these people are luvvy duvvy progressives who have an innate support for democracy.

I'm sure there are a few non-Muslims among them.

Quote:

Oh look, FD wants to quibble over the use of the word "indicate". Do you think its just *POSSIBLE* that you can "indicate support" for something without being genuine about it?

It sounds like you are the one quibbling. I took it to mean merely whether they (clearly) communicated what their concern was, not that they might be falsely communicating it. I asked you to show where they clearly indicated it for this reason, not because I was demanding proof that the really mean what they say they mean. That is why I told you that the democracy sign is exactly what I was asking for.

And yes, I do think people can falsely indicate their support for something, even deliberately. I have a wiki article full of examples. Ironically enough, Abu tried very hard to convince people that Islam was compatible with democracy, before being forced to peel the onion of all the ways in which Islam undermines democracy, to the extent that what you have left is unrecognisable. Of course, this was merely a "different type" of democracy, just like Islam has a "different take" on concepts like freedom.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp
Reply #124 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 7:42am

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 10:29pm:

Quote:

Oh look, FD wants to quibble over the use of the word "indicate". Do you think its just *POSSIBLE* that you can "indicate support" for something without being genuine about it?

It sounds like you are the one quibbling. I took it to mean merely whether they (clearly) communicated what their concern was, not that they might be falsely communicating it. I asked you to show where they clearly indicated it for this reason, not because I was demanding proof that the really mean what they say they mean. That is why I told you that the democracy sign is exactly what I was asking for.

And yes, I do think people can falsely indicate their support for something, even deliberately. I have a wiki article full of examples. Ironically enough, Abu tried very hard to convince people that Islam was compatible with democracy, before being forced to peel the onion of all the ways in which Islam undermines democracy, to the extent that what you have left is unrecognisable. Of course, this was merely a "different type" of democracy, just like Islam has a "different take" on concepts like freedom.

When we [i.e. non-moslems] 'talk' with moslems we [i.e. non-moslems] must always be aware that the meaning, which each of us [i.e. non-moslems AND moslems] attribute to the words that we [i.e. non-moslems AND moslems] use can be very different.

Moslems tend to understand and conceal that very important distinction - from the party they are communicating with.

Non-moslems tend to NOT, NOT, NOT, understand that very important distinction - about the [differing] meaning of the words that are being used by each group, to communicate, with the 2nd group of people.

Dictionary,
sophistry = = the use of fallacious arguments, especially to deceive.

Why is Freediver so frightened of a moderator?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1382236880/27#27
Quote:

e.g.
We have all observed, how moslems will intentionally use a very particular form of words [sophistry] so as to deceive the 'audience' that the moslem is talking to - while at the same time, the form of words used, allows the moslem to portray himself [and ISLAM] as 'innocent', virtuous and sincere.

But when we compare how moslems speak to non-moslems, and then to a moslem audience, a reasonable person can only conclude that that there are two distinct narratives being presented [by moslems], and that moslems are intentionally lying to non-moslems about their real attitudes and intentions.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp Reply #125 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 7:49am Maybe some of them are pretending to be violent in a bid to put you onto blood pressure medication Yadda? Taqiyya isn't it?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp
Reply #126 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 7:57pm

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 10:29pm:

That's what I was asking you Gandalf. Though I am glad you understand the question now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seemed to be using the argument that only 1 democracy placard suggests they were not so interested in democracy - in contrast to lots of beheading placards at the 2012 Sydney protest.

ie...

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

The context was the number of placards supporting each, and how you would interpret that.

Surely you wouldn't "interpret" that very few beheading placards at the 2012 protest means it was not violent would you? I certainly wouldn't. The "context" there was not how many beheading placards there were, but the fact that they acted like violent thugs and were demonstrating over something completely unreasonable.

In contrast, the "context" of the Egypt protest was that they were peaceful, the promotion of a peaceful message was clear for all to see, and they were demonstrating against a brutal act of violence and an attack on democracy.

FD, exactly what point were you making by comparing the two protests again??

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 10:29pm:

You also made a claim about what their concern really is - in direct response to my question about whether they were genuinely concerned about democracy, or merely supporters of Morsi whose views happen to coincide in this instance

The only claim I made was to say it is perfectly reasonable and logical to assume that these people were genuine in their concern for democracy. And it is reasonable and logical - in the absence of any other information about the personal motives of these people, there is nothing to indicate that what they are clearly indicating (ie supporting Egyptian democracy), is not their genuine belief. Note that it is *NOT* saying that this is definitely the case - its just a logical and reasonable conclusion to come to based on the facts available. The only way to reach the conclusion that these people are really anti-democratic, anti-freedom and pro-violence and oppression, is to draw on a completely baseless pre-conceived notion about these people. Another word we have for that is prejudice.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp
Reply #127 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 9:48pm

These minutes of the monthly meeting of Lakemba's Egypt club were recently leaked:

Quote:

Welcome to the meeting. Great to see so many new faces. I assume you are all here to help with the rally?

ALLAHU AKBAR!

And how many of you are going to bring a beheading placard?

ALLAHU AKBAR!

Yes well I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave them at home.

Allahu Akbar?

No beheading placards. And I want someone to make a nice big democracy placard.

All... say what?

A pro democracy placard. Who wants to volunteer to make one? Anyone?

.

How about Nigel the apostate? He was always banging on about democracy.

Yeah that guy was such a douche.

Good idea. You get in touch with Nigel, offer him an apology, and ask him to make a nice big democracy banner. And not some dodgy printout sticky taped to a cardboard roll. We need a massive banner, nice and shiny. It will be the signature banner.

Who will sign it?

No-one will sign it. It will be the signature banner for the protest.

The protest cannot sign it. We have our own views. I will not sign it.

OK OK, you do not have to sign it. Now, who wants to make a freedom banner?

We want to chop their heads off.

I see we have some volunteers to make a justice banner.

BEHEADING JUSTICE!

Just justice!

JUST JUSTICE!

Great! No wait. On your placards I want you to put only... I want you to only put Justice, by itself.

JUSTICE BY ITSELF!

Oh God. I mean Allah. OK, I changed my mind again. On your placards I only want to you put one word. I want you to put Justice.

JUSTICE!

Phew. Now, as for the rest of you...

And the removal of the clitoris!

OK. How about you make a freedom banner?

How do you spell cliteridectomy?

It doesn't matter how you spell it. There are too many letters, and white people will not understand that anyway. These banners are not supposed to be a thesis on Shariah Law in Egypt. Keep it simple. Listen, those laws were an assault on our freedom to remove the clitoris of our daughters. Morsi was to give Egyptians back their freedom. Who wants to make a freedom banner?

CLITERIDECTOMY FREEDOM!

Just freedom!

JUST FREEDOM!

One word. On your banner. Freedom.

FREEDOM!

OK. I think I'm getting the hang of this.

This is bullshit! We just want it all to stop and put Morsi back where he belongs - in charge!

You can make the peace banners then.

.

You want and end to what is happening. What is happening is violence, no? You want peace!

.

Do we want a just peace, or a lonely peace?

What? Oh, right. Um, only you can decide that for yourself. But it doesn't matter. Your banner will have one word, peace.

But what if people see us?

I'll make sure the Ummah knows what these words mean. They are merely symbols for what we are really saying.

Will you tell the Ummah that we want a just peace or a lonely peace?

I will tell them that you want Morsi back in charge. Just remember, no beheading placards!

Not even one? We always have at least one! How else to put the infidel in his place?

Not even one. I don't want channel ten making us out to be violent thugs and giving us all that bad publicity again.

We offer free headerectomy to lying journalist!

That won't be necessary. There will be no more talk of beheadings!

[meeting interrupted by fisticuffs]

I guess that settles that then. Now for our regular order of business...

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« Last Edit: Feb 7^th, 2014 at 12:42pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp Reply #128 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 9:50pm Lol, have you ever been on a committee? Those aren't minutes
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49963 At my desk.	Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp Reply #129 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 9:52pm It left out the boring bits and people's names.
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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp Reply #130 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 10:03pm That's just a transcript lol, not even close to what minutes look like. Also, no "seconding". Seriously, have you ever even read a meeting's minutes?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49963 At my desk.	Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp Reply #131 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 10:15pm I believe the fisticuffs count as seconding in this club. They even throw in a third, if they really mean it.
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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp Reply #132 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 10:18pm Can't knock too many people out, you wouldn't have a quorum
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Soren

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Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp
Reply #133 - Feb 6^th, 2014 at 10:43pm

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:

These minutes of the monthly meeting of Lakemba's Egypt club were recently leaked:

Quote:

Welcome to the meeting. Great to see so many new faces. I assume you are all here to help with the rally?

Allahu Akbar!

And how many of you are going to bring a beheading placard?

Allahu Akbar!

Yes well I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave them at home.

Allahu Akbar?

No beheading placards. And I want someone to make a nice big democracy placard.

All... say what?

A pro democracy placard. Who wants to volunteer to make one? Anyone?

.

How about Nigel the apostate? He was always banging on about democracy.

Yeah that guy was such a douche.

Good idea. You get in touch with Nigel, offer him an apology, and ask him to make a nice big democracy banner. And not some dodgy printout sticky taped to a cardboard roll. We need a massive banner, nice and shiny. It will be the signature banner.

Who will sign it?

No-one will sign it. It will be the signature banner for the protest.

The protest cannot sign it. We have our own views. I will not sign it.

OK OK, you do not have to sign it. Now, who wants to make a freedom banner?

We want to chop their heads off.

I see we have some volunteers to make a justice banner.

Beheading justice!

Just justice!

Justice!

And the removal of the clitoris!

OK. How about you make a freedom banner?

How do you spell cliteridectomy?

Listen, those laws were an assault on our freedom to remove the clitoris of our daughters. Morsi was to give Egyptians back their freedom. Who wants to make a freedom banner?

Cliteridectomy freedom!

Just freedom!

Freedom!

This is bullshit. We just want it all to stop and put Morsi back where he belongs - in charge!

You can make the peace banners then.

.

You want and end to what is happening. What is happening is violence, no? You want peace!

But what if people see us?

I'll make sure the Ummah knows what these words mean. They are merely symbols for what we are really saying. Just remember, no beheading placards!

Not even one? We always have at least one! How else to put the infidel in his place?

Not even one. I don't want channel ten making us out to be violent thugs and giving us all that bad publicity again.

We offer free headerectomy to lying journalist!

That won't be necessary. There will be no more talk of beheadings!

[meeting interrupted by fisticuffs]

I guess that settles that then. Now for our regular order of business...

Allahu Akbar!

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Karnal

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Re: Sydney protests against overthrow of Morsi in Egyp
Reply #134 - Feb 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:

These minutes of the monthly meeting of Lakemba's Egypt club were recently leaked:

Quote:

Welcome to the meeting. Great to see so many new faces. I assume you are all here to help with the rally?

Allahu Akbar!

And how many of you are going to bring a beheading placard?

Allahu Akbar!

Yes well I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave them at home.

Allahu Akbar?

No beheading placards. And I want someone to make a nice big democracy placard.

All... say what?

A pro democracy placard. Who wants to volunteer to make one? Anyone?

.

How about Nigel the apostate? He was always banging on about democracy.

Yeah that guy was such a douche.

Good idea. You get in touch with Nigel, offer him an apology, and ask him to make a nice big democracy banner. And not some dodgy printout sticky taped to a cardboard roll. We need a massive banner, nice and shiny. It will be the signature banner.

Who will sign it?

No-one will sign it. It will be the signature banner for the protest.

The protest cannot sign it. We have our own views. I will not sign it.

OK OK, you do not have to sign it. Now, who wants to make a freedom banner?

We want to chop their heads off.

I see we have some volunteers to make a justice banner.

Beheading justice!

Just justice!

Justice!

And the removal of the clitoris!

OK. How about you make a freedom banner?

How do you spell cliteridectomy?

Listen, those laws were an assault on our freedom to remove the clitoris of our daughters. Morsi was to give Egyptians back their freedom. Who wants to make a freedom banner?

Cliteridectomy freedom!

Just freedom!

Freedom!

This is bullshit. We just want it all to stop and put Morsi back where he belongs - in charge!

You can make the peace banners then.

.

You want and end to what is happening. What is happening is violence, no? You want peace!

But what if people see us?

I'll make sure the Ummah knows what these words mean. They are merely symbols for what we are really saying. Just remember, no beheading placards!

Not even one? We always have at least one! How else to put the infidel in his place?

Not even one. I don't want channel ten making us out to be violent thugs and giving us all that bad publicity again.

We offer free headerectomy to lying journalist!

That won't be necessary. There will be no more talk of beheadings!

[meeting interrupted by fisticuffs]

I guess that settles that then. Now for our regular order of business...

I love it, FD.

How did you get the minutes to Alan’s pro-carbon rally meeting?

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