Australian Politics Forum - Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.

Bobby.

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 110998
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #600 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 12:35pm

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:21am:

Will manned aeroplanes be obsolete when this one is up to the mark? Fighters in the true sense of the word are already somewhat of a misnomer. The last dog-fights per se were over the Falklands exclusion zone. These days aircraft fire rockets at each other twenty miles apart.

I heard on TV 2 nights ago that we would only buy two F35s by 2020.
It would be nice if Tony Abbott would tell us.
I don't think he has a clue about what he's doing.

Yes - unmanned aeroplanes seems to be the way to go -
you don't have to risk a pilot & they can stay in the air longer.

Back to top

IP Logged

Bobby.

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 110998
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #601 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:24pm

This article absolutely bags the F35.
A bit of it is below but it is worth reading the whole lot.

http://indrus.in/blogs/2013/04/08/why_australia_should_scratch_the_f-35_and_fly_...

Quote:

Why Australia should scratch the F-35 and fly Sukhois

April 8, 2013 Rakesh Krishnan Simha

The F-35 Lighting was the first choice of the Australian air force. But several thunderbolts have struck the stealth aircraft, including the arrival of new generation Sukhois that are skewing the odds against the Australians.

Sometime by the middle of this year, Australia will have to make a stark choice. Its defences vulnerable and budget in tatters, the country will announce whether it will buy another squadron of 24 F-18 Super Hornets, or that Australia will stick with the original plan to buy 100 units of the F-35 Lightning – America’s joint strike fighter.

Trouble is neither option adds to the country’s security.

The reason, according to the Business Spectator is:
“Indonesia plans to buy an incredible 180 of the Russian/Indian Sukhoi fighters,
almost certainly including the PAK-FA T-50 and Su-35S. So the question is not whether the JSF is better than the outdated Hornet, but whether it is better than Indonesia’s Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA T-50 and Su-35S.”Like much of what comes spinning out of the Australian media, the article is alarmist. But it offers a sound suggestion – instead of seeking advice from Australian and American military officials, who have staked their careers on the F-35, the defence ministry must get an informed and unbiased opinion from outside. As things stand now, Australia “will soon discover that the latest defence slogan – ‘first look, first shoot, first kill’ – works against the outmoded Hornet but not against the Sukhoi. The Sukhoi is just too good”.

The Sukhoi fighter:

PS. Indonesia has enough money to buy 180 Sukhoi jet fighters
that will be better than ours but we still send them aid money - go figure?

Back to top

IP Logged

viewpoint

Gold Member

Offline

A joke is a very serious
thing. [Winston]

Posts: 2209
Gender: male

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #602 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:35pm

All very well if you want to rely on Russia to provide technical back up and supply reliable parts to a country which isn't exactly on its Christmas Card list.

Sticking with the F18s seems a better proposition for this country. Keeping up with the big boys is not practical, or financially feasible after the former governments mismanagement of the economy.

Back to top

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Sir Winston Churchill

IP Logged

Bobby.

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 110998
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #603 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:37pm

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:35pm:

All very well if you want to rely on Russia to provide technical back up and supply reliable parts to a country which isn't exactly on its Christmas Card list.

Read the full article:

Quote:

“Sukhoi licenses the manufacture of Sukhoi planes and parts in several countries including India and China. Australia could buy the entire Sukhoi aircraft and build the avionics, consumables and weaponry locally. Many companies in Russia, Asia, Israel and Europe manufacture Sukhoi components. Sukhoi is ‘open source’.”

Back to top

IP Logged

viewpoint Gold Member Offline A joke is a very serious thing. [Winston] Posts: 2209 Gender:	Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?. Reply #604 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:44pm Compatibility with our likely allies is an essential consideration in any military equipment Australia buys, that's why we don't use AK47s probably one of the best made and cheapest automatic small arm used today.
Back to top	Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Sir Winston Churchill IP Logged

Bobby.

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 110998
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #605 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:48pm

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:44pm:

Compatibility with our likely allies is an essential consideration in any military equipment Australia buys, that's why we don't use AK47s probably one of the best made and cheapest automatic small arm used today.

But the F35s would lose in a battle with the Sukhoi fighters.

We might as well be like NZ & have no fighters.

Read the article.

Back to top

IP Logged

\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?. Reply #606 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:57pm My question is, and I'm quite willing to be corrected, is how do the Sukhois detect the F-35s, if the F-35 are stealth planes? Did 4 Corners try and claim that the Sukhois have some super radar which can defeat stealth?
Back to top	"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013. "we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions." Freediver, 2007. IP Logged

\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?. Reply #607 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:57pm My question is, and I'm quite willing to be corrected, is how do the Sukhois detect the F-35s, if the F-35 are stealth planes? Did 4 Corners try and claim that the Sukhois have some super radar which can defeat stealth?
Back to top	"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013. "we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions." Freediver, 2007. IP Logged

Bobby.

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 110998
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #608 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 2:00pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:57pm:

My question is, and I'm quite willing to be corrected, is how do the Sukhois detect the F-35s, if the F-35 are stealth planes?

Did 4 Corners try and claim that the Sukhois have some super radar which can defeat stealth? Cheesy

Why doesn't anyone read the article?

http://indrus.in/blogs/2013/04/08/why_australia_should_scratch_the_f-35_and_fly_...

Quote:

Colonel of Aviation Grigoriy “Grisha” Medved, a former Russian fighter pilot, says the worst part of the F-35 is a very hot engine – 160 Celsius hotter than standard combat jet engine exhaust. “It makes a very bright star in the sky and a long jet plume,” he says in a study for Air Power Australia.

Russia has adapted technology developed for detecting ICBM launches, to air combat fighters, says Medved. This technology enables Russian fighter pilots to see a standard fighter at about 50 km;
by 2017 it will allow them to see stealth fighters at about 150 km.
Because such radars are passive, the enemy will have no idea they are being watched.

In a dogfight, Medved notes an Su-35 can salvo a pair of missiles. The first, an active-radar-homing one, will force the F-35 pilot to take evasive action, exposing his beam-on radar cross section and exhausts to another (heat-seeking) shot.

Back to top

IP Logged

|dev|null

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 4434
Gender: male

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #609 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 3:00pm

Errr, I don't that man knows what he's talking about. Radars don't detect jet exhausts.

As to the relative heat of the F-35's exhaust compared to other aircraft, aren't there other aircraft out there with as powerful/more powerful jet engines?

150 km sounds a long way to detect them at but are there missiles with a range that long?

Back to top

"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Moderator

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 43978

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #610 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 6:45pm

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:21am:

Will manned aeroplanes be obsolete when this one is up to the mark? Fighters in the true sense of the word are already somewhat of a misnomer. The last dog-fights per se were over the Falklands exclusion zone. These days aircraft fire rockets at each other twenty miles apart.

A good point. The potential that unmanned aircraft has been on offer since their first serious and extensive use in the Vietnam War. New technology has made it much easier and more possible without a doubt, however there is still about 10-20 years development required before you'll see them replacing manned fighters. The F-35 actually has many of the systems already in place to make it possible but they are still not mature enough for it to work.

So, we need something to fill in between the advent of fighter UAVs. Perhaps that something is the F-35?

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Moderator

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 43978

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #611 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 6:49pm

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:56am:

Many countries including UK seem to be on the waiting list for this fault ridden aeroplane. Not only is it costing an absolute fortune, but so far it does not really have an impressive record of testing and development. I would stick with the F18s and the Typhoon (Eurofighter), both have excellent records and are a hell of a lot cheaper.

Yet they are already obsolescent. Remember, both designs are some 15 years old than the F-35 and considerably less capable. Neither has stealth, neither has the ECM, EO and "datacentric" capabilities of the F-35.

When the F/A-18 was first produced it had many of the same criticisms now levelled at the F-35 levelled at it. Ditto for the Typhoon. Yet now you propose their purchase. How ironic. Roll Eyes

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Moderator

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 43978

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #612 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 7:12pm

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:08am:

The facts are that this plane is extremely expensive and has quite an unenviable history thus far.

All aircraft have "unenviable histories" when they are being developed.

Despite all it's supposed problems, no F-35 has crashed in development yet. You might be surprised to see how many experimental and development aircraft have crashed over the years. Military flying remains quite a dangerous profession, even if it's safety record is steadily improving:

List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (1955–1959)
List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (1960–1974)
List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (1975–1979)
List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (1980–1989)
List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (1990–1999)
List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (2000–present)

"Pushing the envelope" comes with risks and those risks are highest with experimental and development aircraft.

It has been in the "test and development" stage for a long time and as one problem is ironed out another materialises. Not really inspiring confidence so far.
[/quote]

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Moderator

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 43978

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #613 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 7:18pm

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 1:24pm:

This article absolutely bags the F35.
A bit of it is below but it is worth reading the whole lot.

http://indrus.in/blogs/2013/04/08/why_australia_should_scratch_the_f-35_and_fly_...

Quote:

Why Australia should scratch the F-35 and fly Sukhois

April 8, 2013 Rakesh Krishnan Simha

The F-35 Lighting was the first choice of the Australian air force. But several thunderbolts have struck the stealth aircraft, including the arrival of new generation Sukhois that are skewing the odds against the Australians.

Sometime by the middle of this year, Australia will have to make a stark choice. Its defences vulnerable and budget in tatters, the country will announce whether it will buy another squadron of 24 F-18 Super Hornets, or that Australia will stick with the original plan to buy 100 units of the F-35 Lightning – America’s joint strike fighter.

Trouble is neither option adds to the country’s security.

The reason, according to the Business Spectator is:
“Indonesia plans to buy an incredible 180 of the Russian/Indian Sukhoi fighters,
almost certainly including the PAK-FA T-50 and Su-35S. So the question is not whether the JSF is better than the outdated Hornet, but whether it is better than Indonesia’s Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA T-50 and Su-35S.”Like much of what comes spinning out of the Australian media, the article is alarmist. But it offers a sound suggestion – instead of seeking advice from Australian and American military officials, who have staked their careers on the F-35, the defence ministry must get an informed and unbiased opinion from outside. As things stand now, Australia “will soon discover that the latest defence slogan – ‘first look, first shoot, first kill’ – works against the outmoded Hornet but not against the Sukhoi. The Sukhoi is just too good”.

The Sukhoi fighter:

http://nl.media.rbth.ru/web/in-rbth/images/2013-04/big/8.04/468_.jpg

PS. Indonesia has enough money to buy 180 Sukhoi jet fighters
that will be better than ours but we still send them aid money - go figure?

The 180 Sukhois? Where are they going to get the pilots for them? Roll Eyes

The ABRI has an extremely poor record on maintenance, training and flying hours, Bobby. The article is just rehash of the same old tired criticisms which are made on false premises and poor understanding of the F-35.

Were you aware that the 100th F-35 was soon to be completed?

The F-35 project rolls on, despite all the bullshit that has been published against it.

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

viewpoint

Gold Member

Offline

A joke is a very serious
thing. [Winston]

Posts: 2209
Gender: male

Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #614 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 7:40pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 6:49pm:

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:56am:

Many countries including UK seem to be on the waiting list for this fault ridden aeroplane. Not only is it costing an absolute fortune, but so far it does not really have an impressive record of testing and development. I would stick with the F18s and the Typhoon (Eurofighter), both have excellent records and are a hell of a lot cheaper.

Yet they are already obsolescent. Remember, both designs are some 15 years old than the F-35 and considerably less capable. Neither has stealth, neither has the ECM, EO and "datacentric" capabilities of the F-35.

When the F/A-18 was first produced it had many of the same criticisms now levelled at the F-35 levelled at it. Ditto for the Typhoon. Yet now you propose their purchase. How ironic. Roll Eyes

Yet neither of these two "obsolescent" aeroplanes shut down when a lightening storm is in the near vacinity.......

Does not any aircraft commissioned for operations become "obsolescent" as soon as it combat ready?

Now isn't that ironic? Roll Eyes

Back to top

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Sir Winston Churchill

IP Logged

Poll
Question: Should Australia Buy the US product?
* This poll has now closed *
yes 6 (46.2%) no 7 (53.8%) Total votes: 13 « Last Modified by: Emma on: Mar 4^th, 2013 at 6:38pm »