Australian Politics Forum - Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.

Bobby.

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #585 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 7:48am

BigOl,
Don't shoot the messenger - in this case a wing commander.

Quote:

WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS (RET'D):
This is an example of the endgame. The JSFs are out of ammunition, they're out of fuel, they're headed for home. They've got no choice but to present their rear ends to the Flankers.

The Flankers can see them on infra-red, they can see them on radar, they've got fuel, they've got weapons - so they just run them down and kill them.

ANDREW FOWLER: Now he's war-gaming the plane for his own company as a private consultant. But he says the outcome is the same.

WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS (RET'D) (indicating the projection): Here we see another JSF has just died...

ANDREW FOWLER: In this scenario involving an air battle against the Chinese version of the Sukhois, only one of the 24 JSFs survive.

WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS (RET'D) (indicating a chart of losses and expenditures for the simulated battle): Okay, what have we got here? This is the loss for the USA - both of AWAC Sentries, all of the tankers, and 23 of the 24 JSFs.

So this is particularly bad day at the office. They don't usually lose quite that many.

ANDREW FOWLER: Mills has repeated the war game exercise several times. Each time it's a similar story.

WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS (RET'D): Two hundred and forty Joint Strike Fighters went out over those ten missions and 35 came home - so that's not quite annihilation but it's a very savage defeat.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/02/18/3690317.htm

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BigOl64

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #586 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 7:59am

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 7:48am:

BigOl,
Don't shoot the messenger - in this case a wing commander.

Quote:

WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS (RET'D):
This is an example of the endgame. The JSFs are out of ammunition, they're out of fuel, they're headed for home. They've got no choice but to present their rear ends to the Flankers.

The Flankers can see them on infra-red, they can see them on radar, they've got fuel, they've got weapons - so they just run them down and kill them.

ANDREW FOWLER: Now he's war-gaming the plane for his own company as a private consultant. But he says the outcome is the same.

WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS (RET'D) (indicating the projection): Here we see another JSF has just died...

ANDREW FOWLER: In this scenario involving an air battle against the Chinese version of the Sukhois, only one of the 24 JSFs survive.

WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS (RET'D) (indicating a chart of losses and expenditures for the simulated battle): Okay, what have we got here? This is the loss for the USA - both of AWAC Sentries, all of the tankers, and 23 of the 24 JSFs.

So this is particularly bad day at the office. They don't usually lose quite that many.

ANDREW FOWLER: Mills has repeated the war game exercise several times. Each time it's a similar story.

WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS (RET'D): Two hundred and forty Joint Strike Fighters went out over those ten missions and 35 came home - so that's not quite annihilation but it's a very savage defeat.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/02/18/3690317.htm

So what you and the Wing Comander are saying is that, the JSF is a bad aircraft because if it was out of ammo and fuel and the Flanker was not, it could be attacked and killed.

Yes, I see your point now. we should definitely buy aircraft that could sustain and win an air battle when they are out of fuel and ammo rather than ones that can't.

Mind you the Wing commander was a litttle vague on which aircraft would be best suited to a no fuel / no ammo scenario?

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 111090 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?. Reply #587 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:03am Now I've heard everything. BigOl knows more about air battles than WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS.
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BigOl64

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #588 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:07am

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:03am:

Now I've heard everything.

BigOl knows more about air battles than WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS.

I asked the question, which aircraft should we buy so that in an air battle where the aircraft has no fuel and no ammo it would win?

You and the good Wing Commander were a little vague on that, surely the solution is in the 4 corners report somewhere.

BTW, I am well versed in the requirments for fuel and ammo to win air battles.

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Bobby.

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #589 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:13am

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:03am:

Now I've heard everything.

BigOl knows more about air battles than WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS.

I asked the question, which aircraft should we buy so that in an air battle where the aircraft has no fuel and no ammo it would win?

You and the good Wing Commander were a little vague on that, surely the solution is in the 4 corners report somewhere.

BTW, I am well versed in the requirments for fuel and ammo to win air battles.

BigOl,
Watch the 4 corners documentary.
I believe it was an exercise of a hypothetical attack on Jakarta.
I am sure that WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS thought about
any points that you have mentioned.

Why don't you have any respect for authority?
You have a problem.

forgiven

namaste

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BigOl64

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #590 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:20am

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:13am:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:03am:

Now I've heard everything.

BigOl knows more about air battles than WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS.

I asked the question, which aircraft should we buy so that in an air battle where the aircraft has no fuel and no ammo it would win?

You and the good Wing Commander were a little vague on that, surely the solution is in the 4 corners report somewhere.

BTW, I am well versed in the requirments for fuel and ammo to win air battles.

BigOl,
Watch the 4 corners documentary.
I believe it was an exercise of a hypothetical attack on Jakarta.
I am sure that WING COMMANDER CHRIS MILLS thought about
any points that you have mentioned.

Why don't you have any respect for authority?
You have a problem.

forgiven

namaste

So if I sit through the entire 4 corners report Chris Mills will tell me and the world which aircraft is capable of winning an air to air dog fight with no fuel and no ammo?

I hate to sit through 40 minutes of hyped up horse sh1t and be disappointed by finding out such an aircraft does not exist.

Now will this mighty killer of the skies be revealled to me if I sit through the 4 corners report?

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Bobby.

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #591 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:28am

Dear BigOl,
please have a modicum of respect & at least watch the show you have denigrated - full of EXPERT opinion.

Quote:

It's been billed as the smartest jet fighter on the planet, designed to strike enemies in the air and on the ground without being detected by radar. But after a decade of intensive development, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is over budget, a long way behind schedule and described by one expert as "big, fat and draggy".

Link to 4 Corners show:

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/02/18/3690317.htm

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BigOl64

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #592 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:31am

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:28am:

Dear BigOl,
please have a modicum of respect & at least watch the show you have denigrated - full of EXPERT opinion.

Quote:

It's been billed as the smartest jet fighter on the planet, designed to strike enemies in the air and on the ground without being detected by radar. But after a decade of intensive development, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is over budget, a long way behind schedule and described by one expert as "big, fat and draggy".

Link to 4 Corners show:

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/02/18/3690317.htm

I have already told you I have NO respect for 4 corners based on their previous efforts when reporting on Australia's military matters. I doubt that will change for the better after watching this particular episode.

So does this magical aircraft exist or not?

Because if it doesn't, then everything mills has to say about the lack of capability of the F35, tends to be a bit unfair if not smacking outragious, wouldn't you agree?

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 111090 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?. Reply #593 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:33am BigOl - at least watch the show before commenting. You're infuriating.
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BigOl64

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #594 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:45am

Bobby. wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:33am:

BigOl - at least watch the show before commenting.

You're infuriating.

Answer my question first, saves me wasting 40 minutes of my life on a load of horse sh1t reporting.

Does this magical fighter exist, that can successfully conduct a dog fight without fuel of ammo?

Because that seems to be a major sticking point based on the jakarta scenario, so there must be a solution. Otherwise it was pointless to bring it up.

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viewpoint

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #595 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:56am

Many countries including UK seem to be on the waiting list for this fault ridden aeroplane. Not only is it costing an absolute fortune, but so far it does not really have an impressive record of testing and development. I would stick with the F18s and the Typhoon (Eurofighter), both have excellent records and are a hell of a lot cheaper.

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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Sir Winston Churchill

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BigOl64

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #596 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:02am

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:56am:

Many countries including UK seem to be on the waiting list for this fault ridden aeroplane. Not only is it costing an absolute fortune, but so far it does not really have an impressive record of testing and development. I would stick with the F18s and the Typhoon (Eurofighter), both have excellent records and are a hell of a lot cheaper.

I suppose you could ask yourself why many of the major airforces of the world disagree with you and make that the basis of further research.

Including airforces that currently operate the F18 and Typhoon; surely at least one of them has come to a rational conclusion based on the facts.

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viewpoint

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #597 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:08am

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:02am:

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:56am:

Many countries including UK seem to be on the waiting list for this fault ridden aeroplane. Not only is it costing an absolute fortune, but so far it does not really have an impressive record of testing and development. I would stick with the F18s and the Typhoon (Eurofighter), both have excellent records and are a hell of a lot cheaper.

I suppose you could ask yourself why many of the major airforces of the world disagree with you and make that the basis of further research.

Including airforces that currently operate the F18 and Typhoon; surely at least one of them has come to a rational conclusion based on the facts.

The facts are that this plane is extremely expensive and has quite an unenviable history thus far. It has been in the "test and development" stage for a long time and as one problem is ironed out another materialises. Not really inspiring confidence so far.

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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Sir Winston Churchill

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BigOl64

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Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?.
Reply #598 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:13am

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:08am:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:02am:

viewpoint wrote on Sep 27^th, 2013 at 8:56am:

Many countries including UK seem to be on the waiting list for this fault ridden aeroplane. Not only is it costing an absolute fortune, but so far it does not really have an impressive record of testing and development. I would stick with the F18s and the Typhoon (Eurofighter), both have excellent records and are a hell of a lot cheaper.

I suppose you could ask yourself why many of the major airforces of the world disagree with you and make that the basis of further research.

Including airforces that currently operate the F18 and Typhoon; surely at least one of them has come to a rational conclusion based on the facts.

The facts are that this plane is extremely expensive and has quite an unenviable history thus far. It has been in the "test and development" stage for a long time and as one problem is ironed out another materialises. Not really inspiring confidence so far.

Cutting edge technology tends to be like that.

The same was said of the F111 in the late 60s which is why we waited until 1973 to pick ours up, it took over a decade or more to iron out the wrinkles. But once we sorted out the technical issues it became one of the most lethal strike aircraft in the world.

If you want problem free aircraft buy old and proven technology, if not, expect some problems.

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viewpoint Gold Member Offline A joke is a very serious thing. [Winston] Posts: 2209 Gender:	Re: Should Australia Buy These Fighter Jets?. Reply #599 - Sep 27^th, 2013 at 9:21am Will manned aeroplanes be obsolete when this one is up to the mark? Fighters in the true sense of the word are already somewhat of a misnomer. The last dog-fights per se were over the Falklands exclusion zone. These days aircraft fire rockets at each other twenty miles apart.
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Question: Should Australia Buy the US product?
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