freediver wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 12:19pm:


I don't know anything about pre-islamic arabia.

Common sense though dictates that love and mutual affection between a man and a woman is a pretty universal innate characteristic of humans - irrespective of what religion they hold.

It was however fairly standard fair (and again I don't know the specifics of pre-islamic arabian culture) for pre-modern societies to institute laws and social norms that culturalised oppression of women, and reduce them to mere objects to be bartered by their fathers and uncles, and then objects of possession for their (chosen) husband. This effectively barred women from finding their own mate and marrying who they choose based on mutual love. We know this was very common throughout history, across cultures.

Islam undeniably acknowledged this culture and sought to change it - introducing the then radical notion that marriage should a) be based on mutual love and agreement between the husband and wife and b) provide a relationship that gives equal rights and responsibilities on both the husband and wife. However much you and moses attempt to smear islam, it doesn't change the fact that these new notions about marriage (I gave a sample in my last post) were a significant change in culture (in a general sense - again not being an expert on the specifics of arabian culture), and they were introduced by islam.

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Sounds like a typical stick-in-the-mud with no imagination. Fact: the quran intends marriage for people who are already in love and decide themselves they want to live in marriage. How is that possible if you can only marry someone you don't know, and chosen by your parents? It is completely contradictory.

Of course we reject living together and sharing a bed before marriage - which is probably what he was referring to with "modern concepts of love".

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 1:11pm:


Islam allows polygamy, secular democracy usually outlaws polygamy.

That should be wives and not wife gandalf, so would that be mutual love between a husband and his 4 wives?

Aisha was Mohammad's favoutite wife, i guess the others were not young enough, i thought wives were supposed to be treated equally so explain to us why Mo had a favourite?

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So why did Mo have 11 wives when muslim men are only allowed to have 4, the quran tells you to follow the example Mo set so can you have more than 4 wives like Mo did?

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Are you backing away from this claim?

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Yes it is, but you are the first muslim to offer me an alternative explanation.

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I'm pretty sure he meant arranged marriage.

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If it is so undeniable, why do so many Muslims deny it?

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How does your explanation apply to "slaves that you can have sex with"? Aren't they supposed to be treated like wives? How can a slave have equal rights? Your explanation seems completely at odds with slavery, and also with the permissibility of wife beating, and all the other derogatory stuff Islam says about women. In practice Islam seems to not change a thing compared to the "bad old days" you attempt to distinguish it from.

Is there anywhere in the Koran where Muhammed explains that people should not be arranging marriages any more and should let their children fall in love with and marry whoever they choose? Or is this like your claims about spousal rape and rape of sex slaves and women caught in battle - that Islam acknowledged the problem and "undeniably" seeks to change it, without ever actually mentioning it, achieving it or even doing anything about it?

Was Muhammed in love with Aisha when she was six years old? Was she in love with him? Is there any kind of description of the courtship, other than the negotiation Muhammed had with Aisha's father to cancel the contract of sale to another man so Muhammed could get her instead?

Did Muhammed fall in love with the other women he married or took as sex slaves, after chopping their husband's heads off in mass executions? Did they fall in love with him?

OK, maybe I am being a bit harsh. Let's start with something simpler. Seeing as you obviously cannot find a single passage in the Koran that uses the word rape in the context of wives and sex slaves, perhaps you could point out a passage that uses the word love in this context?

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Would you mind quoting it? I don't recall ever seeing the word love used by Muhammed, at least not applied to women. The only "precondition" I have seen applied to Islamic marriage is that the child bride does not openly object to it.

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Didn't Muhammed have sex with his slaves as well as the dozen or so wives? Are you inventing your own religion?

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20 pages of your deflections and pretending not to understand the question. The word rape is never uttered in the context of wives, sex slaves and women caught in battle.

what is the evidence for:

1. muslims being allowed to have sex with their slaves

2. Muhammad having sex with his slaves?

I seem to recall one hadith that said something along the lines of if you really don't think you can resist having sex with your slave, then marry her.

Gandalf, would this be a fair description of your position:

Muhammed invented love, but couldn't bring himself to utter the word in case they thought he was acting gay, like Jesus.

Muhammed introduced bold new legislation outlawing spousal rape and the rape of sex slaves and women caught in battle. Again, he didn't tell his followers about it in case they refused to slaughter Jews and Pagans for him - as taking the women home was part of the deal. After Muhammed's 12 wives and many sex slaves, and up to four wives plus sex slaves for other leaders and wealthy men, there were not many women left, so capturing women in battle was a strong incentive to get poor and young Muslims men off to war.

Curiously, Muhammed could not bring himself to utter the word rape either. The one time he did punish someone for rape in the conventional context, he used the word intercourse and gave the same punishment as unlawful intercourse.

Instead of telling Muslims about the ban on rape, Muhammed went for a "phased approach":

Phase 1) Set the ground rules: sex is a man's right. Sex is a woman's obligation. Do not beat your wives "excessively" like you beat your sex slaves, or they will be permitted to beat you in return. Cover them up, and do not leave bruises that will be visible in public. Never ask a man why he beats his wife, as he is obviously a poor communicator.

Phase 2) A 21st century wizard attempts to convince non-Muslims (who have already adopted the standard of their own volition) that Islam has the same standards. After this challenge is completed, move on to the next phase.

Phase 3) Convince Muslims that Islam bans the rape of wives, sex slaves, women caught in battle etc.

Phase 5) Actually change the law and punish rapists.

You may have noticed I left out phase 4. This is not to trick anyone, but an Islamic principle of never presenting information in the obvious order. Phase 4 is the wholesale abandonment of Islamic law by Muslims.

Muhammed also wanted to stop arranged marraiges. Again, he forgot to mention it.

After beheading 800 Jews, Muhammed looked over the women and children who were left behind. He fell madly in love with the best looking one and they lived happily ever after. Their marriage brought peace between Muslims and Jews. Muhammed also fell in love with his neighbour's six year old daughter. She was already betrothed to another man, but Muhammed negotiated the annulment of that contract. The child bride's father also became Muhammed's right hand man.

Everything Muhammed said should be interpreted however you feel like. You may choose between two opposite but non-contradictory principles in making your interpretation:

* Do not forbid what Allah has permitted for you. Everything is legal, unless specifically forbidden.
* Interpret any ruling or precedent in the broadest possible sense, discarding common sense and context. Project 21st century standards and meanings (or whatever standards you think the audience wants to hear) onto events that happened 1400 years ago.

That's not fair Gandalf. I kept reading after you posted this:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 8:35am:


Muhammed had sex with his slaves, like this one that he took for himself after beheading 800 Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

As part of his share of the spoils, Muhammad selected one of the women, Rayhana, for himself and took her as part of his booty.[66] Muhammad offered to free and marry her and according to some sources she accepted his proposal, while according to others she rejected it and remained the Prophet's slave and concubine.