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Message started by freediver on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:20pm

Title: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:20pm
Is it true that wherever Islam permits sex, it permits rape, by not requiring consent and compelling submission, and that wherever Islam punishes rape, it also punishes consensual sex?

Are the punishments for consensual sex the same as those for rape in the same context?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:11pm

freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:20pm:
Are the punishments for consensual sex the same as those for rape in the same context?


No. Rapists face a range of punishments in islam like crusifixion or double amputation.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 5th, 2012 at 9:54pm
So the punishment is more severe than for consensual sex? What would the punishment be for consensual sex in those situations? Isn't the punishment for consensual sex death by stoning in some contexts?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 5th, 2012 at 10:10pm
If the punishment for adulterers in Islam was stoning, it'd be in the Quran. Is it?

Is a punishment more severe than stoning even possible? Necklacing, perhaps?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Sprintcyclist on Mar 5th, 2012 at 11:09pm

freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 9:54pm:
So the punishment is more severe than for consensual sex? What would the punishment be for consensual sex in those situations? Isn't the punishment for consensual sex death by stoning in some contexts?


what an appalling belief that is so oppressive.
dictators must love it.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:39am
So sprint, you think Jesus in his "Old Testament" days was oppressive? According to your beliefs isn't Jesus Yahweh? And didn't Yahweh in the OT command the exact same things? Is your god a reformed dictator?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Frances on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:06am

falah wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:11pm:
double amputation.


You mean both testicles?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:05pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 10:10pm:
If the punishment for adulterers in Islam was stoning, it'd be in the Quran. Is it?

Is a punishment more severe than stoning even possible? Necklacing, perhaps?


There is a hadith about Aisha's pet goat eating the verses on stoning and suckling,yet muslims discard this hadith as weak because it proves the Quran has been corrupted.

What other reason do muslims give for this missing verse?

Bukhari said the verse was revealed and read so where is it?

If stoning is not in the Quran then why do muslims insist on doing it, is it because there are many hadeeth saying it is the done thing?

The Quran is incomplete despite it telling you it has been perfected in Sura 5/3.
They couldnt add verses to the Quran after it was completed 23 years after Mo died so they came up with the hadith, a few extra editions of Islamic text to explain all the stuff the Quran left out.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 6th, 2012 at 3:58pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:39am:

So sprint, you think Jesus in his "Old Testament" days was oppressive? According to your beliefs isn't Jesus Yahweh? And didn't Yahweh in the OT command the exact same things? Is your god a reformed dictator?



You are again, being 'silly' Abu.

Using, applying, a preposterous logic.

Dictionary;
preposterous = = utterly absurd or ridiculous.

Again you are equating God's OT covenant laws [and those specific covenant punishments], as laws for all times, and for all people.

Whether those other people [non-Hebrews], were in-covenant with God, or not.



And Abu,

And as to your implication that God is/was a [harsh] dictator, because of his covenant laws....

If i make a covenant with someone, and if we agree beforehand, what the 'cost' will be, if one of us breaks the covenant, then what should the 'cost' be Abu, if one of us breaks our covenant ?

Shouldn't the cost of breaking our covenant, be, what we had both agreed to ?

If i require the person that i entered into the covenant to fulfil his obligations, under the agreed covenant, is that, oppression, or being a 'dictator', to require my partner in my covenant, to fulfil his obligations ?






Abu,

You are an ignorant moslem.

And you are a blasphemer, against God himself.

And you clearly know nothing about God, or his just [OT covenant] laws, OR, who those laws applied to.



Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:38pm
Ok so likewise we Muslims entered into a similar covenant.

Continue with your contradictory nonsense...

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:13pm
Abu are you saying Islamic laws are only temporary?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 6th, 2012 at 8:09pm
you never fail to surprise fd.

What pray tell brought you to this mixed up conclusion?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 6th, 2012 at 8:58pm

Quote:
Again you are equating God's OT covenant laws [and those specific covenant punishments], as laws for all times, and for all people.



Quote:
Ok so likewise we Muslims entered into a similar covenant.


If you meant something else feel free to explain.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 6th, 2012 at 9:05pm
Every covenant before Mohammed's was by definition temporary as they were all preludes to the final one that is forever. Muslims are special, don't you know? They have replaced the Jews as the Chosen People.

This is why the Jews thought Mohammed was a meshuggeh.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 6th, 2012 at 9:34pm
fd,

Yes I know what I said, now can you match that up with your hair brained claim that it must therefore lead one to conclude that Islamic law is temporary.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 6th, 2012 at 9:47pm
Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler if you just explained what you meant?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 6th, 2012 at 10:32pm
What I meant: If Yadda thinks capital punishment isn't oppressive if you're in a covenant with God, then he should realise Muslims consider themselves in a covenant with God.

Now you're turn, how on earth did you translate that into "Islamic law is temporary"...? I'm truly fascinated by how your mind "works" sometimes fd. I see you come up with questions, that I'd be astounded if even a small child asked them, since they just have absolutely no logical connection whatsoever with the thread content.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:00am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:38pm:

Ok so likewise we Muslims entered into a similar covenant.


Continue with your contradictory nonsense...



So, moslems have entered into a 'similar' covenant, with God ?

Presumably, a similar [but new, and very different] covenant to the covenant, which God made in the OT Bible, with the Hebrew people ?

And thereby, in their own covenant with God, moslems now also replace the Hebrews, as God's people, presumably ?

OK.




But Abu,

Moslems make the claim that Jesus was a prophet of God.

Jesus explained to the Jews, that they should love God, and their neighbours.....

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



Abu,

How do moslems interpret Jesus words in Matthew 22:36-40 ?

Or was Jesus wrong ?

Or are Christians today mis-representing Jesus words to mean something that Jesus did not intend ?

e.g.
Do moslems claim that Jesus meant that moslems can only 'love thy neighbour as thyself', if thy neighbour is a moslem ???

Because we now know, that that idea of enmity towards 'unbelievers' who reject Allah, is clearly what Allah projects, throughout the Koran.

Doesn't he ?


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,..."
Koran 9.29


In the Koran, Allah confirms, that even Christians are now, his enemies.

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51




+++

Abu,

So, your position is that [post the early Christian era] moslems have entered into a[nother] covenant, with God,    .....to love God, and to love their moslem neighbours ?

But that warfare and enmity against unbelievers, in Allah's cause [i.e. to subjugate all men to Allah's worship], is sanctified, and required by Allah ?

Because Allah, requires in their covenant, that moslems must regard all non-moslems who resist moslem authority [because TRUE moslems are Allah's proxy upon earth], are enemies, of moslems, and Allah ?

n.b.
I like that idea too, that moslems take to themselves the right to interpret Allah's will, to the point of moslems becoming Allah's proxies on earth, to destroy those 'unbelievers', who resist the will of moslems [as proxies for Allah].

Dictionary;
proxy = = the authority to represent someone else, especially in voting.      a person authorized to act on behalf of another.






So, simply put, moslems in their covenant with Allah, must love Allah, and, all fellow moslems ?

But their covenant with Allah, requires that moslems must have hatred and enmity for those unbelievers, who resist Allah ?i+++
+++


Abu,

I would make another proposition, a very different proposition.

I would make the proposition that Jesus words were clear and unambiguous.....


Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


And Abu,

If a moslem follow ISLAM's doctrines of hatred, towards their fellow man, then moslems are following a doctrine which is diametrically in opposition, to what God requires of us.

And i would i would argue that every good moslem, is;
1/ an oppressor of his fellow man, and,
2/ a hater God.

But that assumes that Jesus was accurate and true, when he said that the importance for us to love God, was much the same [in importance] as we loving our fellow man.




And those words of Jesus [above], about loving our fellow man, are in full alignment and agreement, with the doctrine of the OT covenant law of Moses.....

Once again;
THE GOD OF ISRAEL COMMANDED THE HEBREWS TO TREAT 'INFIDELS' ['unbelievers'] [i.e. ALL MEN, ALL MANKIND] WITH RESPECT AND WITH JUSTICE.


Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...


n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18  But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:22am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 10:32pm:
What I meant: If Yadda thinks capital punishment isn't oppressive if you're in a covenant with God, then he should realise Muslims consider themselves in a covenant with God.



Well, i'm glad that you believe that Abu.

But i'm sad that you reject the logic [the wisdom] and righteousness of God, which was expressed by the man Jesus.


Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.





And that rather, like all moslems, you believe that enmity and warfare against those who do not believe as you believe, is the way to go.

And that you believe that such a path, is sanctified for men, from God the creator.

One of us is wrong Abu.



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:42am

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:00am:
But Abu,

Moslems make the claim that Jesus was a prophet of God.

Jesus explained to the Jews, that they should love God, and their neighbours.....


Right... and Islam teaches this too.

Abu Shuraih Al-Khuza`I, May Allah be pleased with him, reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him be kind to his neighbor; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him show hospitality to his guest; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him either speak good or remain silent".

Abdullah Ibn Musawir narrated: "I heard Ibn Abbas mention Ibn Az-Zubair saying that he was a miser, then he said: I heard the messenger of Allah say: He is not a believer who eats his fill whilst his neighbor beside him goes hungry"


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 7th, 2012 at 8:32am

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:05pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 10:10pm:
If the punishment for adulterers in Islam was stoning, it'd be in the Quran. Is it?

Is a punishment more severe than stoning even possible? Necklacing, perhaps?


There is a hadith about Aisha's pet goat eating the verses on stoning and suckling,yet muslims discard this hadith as weak because it proves the Quran has been corrupted.

What other reason do muslims give for this missing verse?

Bukhari said the verse was revealed and read so where is it?

If stoning is not in the Quran then why do muslims insist on doing it, is it because there are many hadeeth saying it is the done thing?

The Quran is incomplete despite it telling you it has been perfected in Sura 5/3.
They couldnt add verses to the Quran after it was completed 23 years after Mo died so they came up with the hadith, a few extra editions of Islamic text to explain all the stuff the Quran left out.



The Quran is not the only source of revealation. The prophet explained the Quran, and it is through the Prophet that we understand the Quran.

We have the word of God; the Quran, and we have the word of the prophet; hadeeth(may God's peace & blessing be upun the prophet)

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:42am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:00am:
But Abu,

Moslems make the claim that Jesus was a prophet of God.

Jesus explained to the Jews, that they should love God, and their neighbours.....


Right... and Islam teaches this too.

Abu Shuraih Al-Khuza`I, May Allah be pleased with him, reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him be kind to his neighbor; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him show hospitality to his guest; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him either speak good or remain silent".

Abdullah Ibn Musawir narrated: "I heard Ibn Abbas mention Ibn Az-Zubair saying that he was a miser, then he said: I heard the messenger of Allah say: He is not a believer who eats his fill whilst his neighbor beside him goes hungry"




Abu,

I have no argument with teh sentiment expressed in those ISLAMIC passages.

And imo, those ISLAMIC passages do express a commendable attitude towards neighbours.

THOUGH THE TERM 'NEIGHBOUR' IS NOWHERE DEFINED IN THOSE PASSAGES.


But i will ask,   .....who are defined, as the 'neighbours' of moslems, Abu ???

Who are the people that moslems may be kind towards, Abu ???





Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29



And so, we come to an understanding.

That moslems are commanded to be kind to their 'neighbours'.

e.g.
Moslems are urged to be "merciful among themselves".


And at the very same time, Allah commands moslems to be, 'hard against the disbelievers'.






My argument is with your arguments and obfuscations Abu.

Clearly ISLAM sanctifies, and legitimises, a full-blown enmity and hatred, which ISLAM, and Allah, express and encourage, towards non-moslems [non-moslems who may be in every way, otherwise peaceable and faultless people].

And ISLAM mandates [obligates] moslem enmity and warfare against all non-moslems, who reject moslem authority, over their lives.







Abu,

Earlier [in another post, #9], you spoke about a 'new' covenant which moslems consider that they have, with Allah.

And here below, Mohammed verbalises the nature of that 'covenant' with Allah, ....which moslems have chosen to embrace....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196





And here below, are more words [from Allah] in the Koran, describing the nature of your covenant with Allah......


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,..."
Koran 9.29


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51




There must be no moslem friendship, with unbelievers.

Q.
That is what Allah's covenant with moslems requires, isn't it Abu ?






Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 7th, 2012 at 4:44pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:42am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:00am:
But Abu,

Moslems make the claim that Jesus was a prophet of God.

Jesus explained to the Jews, that they should love God, and their neighbours.....


Right... and Islam teaches this too.

Abu Shuraih Al-Khuza`I, May Allah be pleased with him, reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him be kind to his neighbor; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him show hospitality to his guest; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him either speak good or remain silent".

Abdullah Ibn Musawir narrated: "I heard Ibn Abbas mention Ibn Az-Zubair saying that he was a miser, then he said: I heard the messenger of Allah say: He is not a believer who eats his fill whilst his neighbor beside him goes hungry"




Abu,

I have no argument with teh sentiment expressed in those ISLAMIC passages.

And imo, those ISLAMIC passages do express a commendable attitude towards neighbours.

THOUGH THE TERM 'NEIGHBOUR' IS NOWHERE DEFINED IN THOSE PASSAGES.


But i will ask,   .....who are defined, as the 'neighbours' of moslems, Abu ???

Who are the people that moslems may be kind towards, Abu ???





Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29



And so, we come to an understanding.

That moslems are commanded to be kind to their 'neighbours'.

e.g.
Moslems are urged to be "merciful among themselves".


And at the very same time, Allah commands moslems to be, 'hard against the disbelievers'.






My argument is with your arguments and obfuscations Abu.

Clearly ISLAM sanctifies, and legitimises, a full-blown enmity and hatred, which ISLAM, and Allah, express and encourage, towards non-moslems [non-moslems who may be in every way, otherwise peaceable and faultless people].

And ISLAM mandates [obligates] moslem enmity and warfare against all non-moslems, who reject moslem authority, over their lives.







Abu,

Earlier [in another post, #9], you spoke about a 'new' covenant which moslems consider that they have, with Allah.

And here below, Mohammed verbalises the nature of that 'covenant' with Allah, ....which moslems have chosen to embrace....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196





And here below, are more words [from Allah] in the Koran, describing the nature of your covenant with Allah......


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,..."
Koran 9.29


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51




There must be no moslem friendship, with unbelievers.

Q.
That is what Allah's covenant with moslems requires, isn't it Abu ?




Yadda don't you ever get sick of lying? Prophet Muhammed (may God's peace & blessings be upon him) employed a Jewish servant boy, who became sick one day. According to your lies the prophet should have said domething like "Good, the Jew is sick!" This is not what the prophet did. What he did do is go and visit the sick Jewish boy:

Thaabit from Anas said: “There was a Jewish boy who used to serve the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him). He fell sick, and the Prophet came to visit him. He sat at his head and said to him, ‘Embrace Islam.’ (The boy) looked towards his father, who was with him. (His father) said, ‘Obey Abu’l-Qasim (patronymic nickname of Prophet Muhammed).’ So he embraced Islam, and the Prophet went out saying, ‘Praise be to God Who has saved him from the Fire.’”   
(Bukhari)[/quote]

Prophet Muhammed visited his dying pagan uncle:


Quote:
Ibn Shihaab who said: Sa’eed ibn al-Musayyib told me that his father told him, when Abu Taalib was on his deathbed, the Apostle of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) came to him and found (the pagans) Abu Jahl ibn Hishaam and Abdullah ibn Abi Umayyah ibn al-Mugheerah with him. The Apostle of God said: “O my uncle, say "None has the right to be worshipped except God!", a word for which I will bear witness for you before God.” Abu Jahl and Abdullah ibn Abi Umayyah said, “O Abu Taalib, are you turning away from the religion of (your father) Abd al-Muttalib?” The Apostle of God  kept urging him to embrace Islam and they kept repeating the same thing to him, until the last thing that Abu Taalib said to them was, “On the path of (my father) ‘Abd al-Muttalib”, and he refused to say "None has the right to be worshipped except God!". The Apostle of God said: “I shall certainly keep asking God to forgive you until I am told not to do that.”

Then God revealed the words (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask God’s forgiveness for the polytheists, even though they be of kin…”
(Bukhari, Muslim, et al.)


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 8th, 2012 at 2:41pm

falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 4:44pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:42am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:00am:
But Abu,

Moslems make the claim that Jesus was a prophet of God.

Jesus explained to the Jews, that they should love God, and their neighbours.....


Right... and Islam teaches this too.

Abu Shuraih Al-Khuza`I, May Allah be pleased with him, reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him be kind to his neighbor; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him show hospitality to his guest; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him either speak good or remain silent".

Abdullah Ibn Musawir narrated: "I heard Ibn Abbas mention Ibn Az-Zubair saying that he was a miser, then he said: I heard the messenger of Allah say: He is not a believer who eats his fill whilst his neighbor beside him goes hungry"




Abu,

I have no argument with teh sentiment expressed in those ISLAMIC passages.

And imo, those ISLAMIC passages do express a commendable attitude towards neighbours.

THOUGH THE TERM 'NEIGHBOUR' IS NOWHERE DEFINED IN THOSE PASSAGES.


But i will ask,   .....who are defined, as the 'neighbours' of moslems, Abu ???

Who are the people that moslems may be kind towards, Abu ???





Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29



And so, we come to an understanding.

That moslems are commanded to be kind to their 'neighbours'.

e.g.
Moslems are urged to be "merciful among themselves".


And at the very same time, Allah commands moslems to be, 'hard against the disbelievers'.






My argument is with your arguments and obfuscations Abu.

Clearly ISLAM sanctifies, and legitimises, a full-blown enmity and hatred, which ISLAM, and Allah, express and encourage, towards non-moslems [non-moslems who may be in every way, otherwise peaceable and faultless people].

And ISLAM mandates [obligates] moslem enmity and warfare against all non-moslems, who reject moslem authority, over their lives.







Abu,

Earlier [in another post, #9], you spoke about a 'new' covenant which moslems consider that they have, with Allah.

And here below, Mohammed verbalises the nature of that 'covenant' with Allah, ....which moslems have chosen to embrace....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196





And here below, are more words [from Allah] in the Koran, describing the nature of your covenant with Allah......


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,..."
Koran 9.29


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51




There must be no moslem friendship, with unbelievers.

Q.
That is what Allah's covenant with moslems requires, isn't it Abu ?




Yadda don't you ever get sick of lying?





Lying falah ???




Yadda said.....


Quote:

There must be no moslem friendship, with unbelievers.



falah,

Who is lying ?

Are you claiming that the declarations by Allah, in the Koran [which state that moslems must not be friends with Allah's enemies], are false ?

Am i somehow 'misrepresenting' Allah's words, in the Koran falah ?


Dictionary;
misrepresent = = give a false or misleading account of.






falah,

Who was Allah refering to ????.....



"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28


"O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love,..."
Koran 60.1




falah,

Who are the enemies, which Allah refers to [in Koran 60.1] ???




falah,

Doesn't Allah tell us, himself, who his enemies are [....see next Koran verse] ???

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98



All 'unbelievers' who reject ISLAM, are Allah's enemies.

Isn't that true falah ???


Who is the liar falah ?


falah,

If you are going to claim that i am lying about what Allah says, then please point out, how i am lying.




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:07pm

falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 4:44pm:

Quote:
Yadda don't you ever get sick of lying? Prophet Muhammed (may God's peace & blessings be upon him) employed a Jewish servant boy, who became sick one day. According to your lies the prophet should have said domething like "Good, the Jew is sick!" This is not what the prophet did. What he did do is go and visit the sick Jewish boy:

Thaabit from Anas said: “There was a Jewish boy who used to serve the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him). He fell sick, and the Prophet came to visit him. He sat at his head and said to him, ‘Embrace Islam.’ (The boy) looked towards his father, who was with him. (His father) said, ‘Obey Abu’l-Qasim (patronymic nickname of Prophet Muhammed).’ So he embraced Islam, and the Prophet went out saying, ‘Praise be to God Who has saved him from the Fire.’”   
(Bukhari)


Prophet Muhammed visited his dying pagan uncle:

[quote]Ibn Shihaab who said: Sa’eed ibn al-Musayyib told me that his father told him, when Abu Taalib was on his deathbed, the Apostle of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) came to him and found (the pagans) Abu Jahl ibn Hishaam and Abdullah ibn Abi Umayyah ibn al-Mugheerah with him. The Apostle of God said: “O my uncle, say "None has the right to be worshipped except God!", a word for which I will bear witness for you before God.” Abu Jahl and Abdullah ibn Abi Umayyah said, “O Abu Taalib, are you turning away from the religion of (your father) Abd al-Muttalib?” The Apostle of God  kept urging him to embrace Islam and they kept repeating the same thing to him, until the last thing that Abu Taalib said to them was, “On the path of (my father) ‘Abd al-Muttalib”, and he refused to say "None has the right to be worshipped except God!". The Apostle of God said: “I shall certainly keep asking God to forgive you until I am told not to do that.”

Then God revealed the words (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask God’s forgiveness for the polytheists, even though they be of kin…”
(Bukhari, Muslim, et al.)

[/quote]



LOL



falah,

These supposed [unverifiable] accounts of Mohammed's supposed benevolence towards infidels [these infidels being Allah's ENEMIES !! ], merely show Mohammed as a person who was willing to flagrantly disobey Allah's commands, relating to the treatment of 'unbelievers'.








"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089



"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98



"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51


"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28


"O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love,..."
Koran 60.1




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:07pm:

falah,

These supposed [unverifiable] accounts of Mohammed's supposed benevolence towards infidels [these infidels being Allah's ENEMIES !! ], merely show Mohammed as a person who was willing to flagrantly disobey Allah's commands, relating to the treatment of 'unbelievers'.




falah,

Do all moslems so flagrantly disobey Allah's commands, as Mohammed apparently did ???




falah,

Is that why there are so few REAL moslems ???

Because it is clear that many of those people who claim to be moslems [i.e. those wicked false moslems, who slaughter other moslems, by murdering them, e.g. with bombs, in market places, and at funerals], are flagrantly disobeying Allah's commands, and therefore it is clear that they are only moslem 'impersonators' !!

Yes, those 'terrorist' moslems must be, moslem 'impersonators'.

And not REAL moslems.

Otherwise they would show kindness to Allah's enemies [i.e. they would show kindness to the 'wrong kind' of moslems], just like Mohammed did.

/sarc off


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 8th, 2012 at 5:25pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm:
But i will ask,   .....who are defined, as the 'neighbours' of moslems, Abu ???


Yadda, the mufti of Saudi Arabia issued this fatwa which talks about how a Muslim must treat his non-Muslim neighbour:


Quote:
These are some of the rights between a Muslim and a kaafir.

Another right is being a good neighbour. So if he is a neighbour, be kind to him and do not annoy him; give charity to him if he is poor, give him gifts, give him beneficial advice, because these are things that will attract him to Islam and to become Muslim; and because the neighbour has rights...If the neighbour is a kaafir, he still has the rights of a neighbour; if he is both a relative and a kaafir, then he has two rights: the rights of a neighbour and the rights of a relative.

One of the rights of the neighbour is that you should give him charity...if he is poor, because God says (interpretation of the meaning): “God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”
[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]

According to the authentic hadeeth narrated from Asma’ bint Abi Bakr, her mother, who was a polytheist, entered upon her during the truce between the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) and the people of Mecca, seeking help. Asma’ asked the Prophet for permission - should she uphold ties of kinship with her? The Prophet said: “Uphold ties of kinship with her.”

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/131777




Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm:
Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....


Yadda I posted this verse below on a number of occasions, so now can only assume that you are deliberately lying and deceiving:

“God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”
[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]






Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm:
Clearly ISLAM sanctifies, and legitimises, a full-blown enmity and hatred, which ISLAM, and Allah, express and encourage, towards non-moslems [non-moslems who may be in every way, otherwise peaceable and faultless people].


Another lie Yadda.

I find your lies ironic considering how it was kindness from Muslims which attraacted me towards their religion many years ago.


falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 4:44pm:
And ISLAM mandates [obligates] moslem enmity and warfare against all non-moslems, who reject moslem authority, over their lives.


Lying again Yadda?

“God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”
[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]



Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm:
And here below, are more words [from Allah] in the Koran, describing the nature of your covenant with Allah......


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51




There must be no moslem friendship, with unbelievers.



The verse you quoted is not translated well. The verse does not actually say "friends" it says in Arabic "wali" which means "guardian/protector"


Muslims are told not to take non-Muslims as guardians. The word for friend in Arabic is "sadeeq" which is not use in the verse.

So as usual Yadda your arguments are based on either lies or ignorance.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 8th, 2012 at 7:59pm

falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for fornication/adultery


So it is true - the punishment for rape is the same as punishment for consensual sex. And where sex is permitted under Islam, rape is not even acknowledged as a crime.

That is, under Islamic law there is no distinction at all between rape and consensual sex.

The trouble that westerners often find themselves in with local authorities after getting raped in middle eastern coutnries is not some backwards tradition that Abu can blame on western interference, but is a close reflection of Islamic law.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 8th, 2012 at 8:00pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm:
Abu,

I have no argument with teh sentiment expressed in those ISLAMIC passages.

And imo, those ISLAMIC passages do express a commendable attitude towards neighbours.

THOUGH THE TERM 'NEIGHBOUR' IS NOWHERE DEFINED IN THOSE PASSAGES.


But i will ask,   .....who are defined, as the 'neighbours' of moslems, Abu ???

Who are the people that moslems may be kind towards, Abu ???


Your neighbour according to Islam is anyone who lives around you in any direction, even up to 40 houses away.

The Prophet was asked: “Who is a neighbour?” He answered: “Your neighbours are forty houses ahead of you and forty houses to your back, and forty houses to your right and forty houses to your left.”

What is the Christian definition of a neighbour?


Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm:
Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


No, you have lied. Nowhere does it state Muslims must NOT be kind to unbelievers. Please highlight the part where it states that.

The Qur'an in fact explicitly states that Allah does not forbid us being kind to those of the unbelievers who do not act aggressively towards us.

Also from the explanation of the hadiths about neighbours by Muhammad's (pbuh) close companions we can see they understood it to refer to neighbours of any religion.

Abdullah ibn Amr, a companion who was well versed in Hadith had a sheep slaughtered. He repeatedly asked his servant: “Have you sent some meat as a present to our Jewish neighbour?” When he said that several times, he added: “I have heard Allah’s messenger (Pbuh) saying: “Gabriel has repeatedly recommended me to be good to my neighbour until I have thought that he would include him among my heirs.”

As for your repetitive rant about mistranslating awliya as friends, we've been over this several times, and the common misconceptions thread deals with it.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 8th, 2012 at 11:09pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 8:00pm:
Muhammad's (pbuh)



Abbreviated piety - how wonderful. Peace be upon him - but you can't be bothered to actually say it, so just abbreviate it.
Text it. Ps b n 'im. Or pbuh. It is very telling that muslims abbreviate their pieties.
These are only gestures, not actual feelings.





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 9th, 2012 at 5:38am
All language is encoding, if the encoding is more efficient it does not detract from the sentiment expressed.

Only a complete git would think otherwise.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:14am

falah wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 5:25pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm:
Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....


Yadda I posted this verse below on a number of occasions, so now can only assume that you are deliberately lying and deceiving:

“God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”
[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]






Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm:
Clearly ISLAM sanctifies, and legitimises, a full-blown enmity and hatred, which ISLAM, and Allah, express and encourage, towards non-moslems [non-moslems who may be in every way, otherwise peaceable and faultless people].


Another lie Yadda.

I find your lies ironic considering how it was kindness from Muslims which attraacted me towards their religion many years ago.


falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 4:44pm:
And ISLAM mandates [obligates] moslem enmity and warfare against all non-moslems, who reject moslem authority, over their lives.


Lying again Yadda?

“God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”
[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]


.....Yadda your arguments are based on either lies or ignorance.




falah,

My assertions ARE NOT LIES, AT ALL.

It is moslems who are lying, and it is moslems who are misrepresenting [concealing] ISLAM's 'sanctified' violent intent, towards ALL non-moslems.

Moslems are LIARS, who are intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to non-moslems.





In post # 22 you present the actions of Mohammed, as an example of his 'kindness' to 'unbelievers'.

Q.
Yes, and what was the form, of this demonstration of Mohammed's 'kindness' to 'unbelievers' ?

A.
Mohammed's demonstration of 'kindness' to 'unbelievers', WAS,    ........FOR Mohammed TO ASK TWO 'UNBELIEVERS' TO CONVERT TO ISLAM.


Wow, what an act of kindness, shown by Allah's prophet, to two despicable 'unbelievers' !!
/sarc off





And you quote Koran 60.8 to refute my assertion that;
".....Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers...."


You claim that Allah does allow moslems to be kind to 'unbelievers'.

But that [your] assertion, is really a misrepresentation of Allah's intent, in his words.


"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong."
Koran 60.8, 9




n.b.
"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them:......Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith,"


So what is Allah actually conceding to, in Koran 60.8 ???

Very little, AND ONLY THIS....



Moslems may show kindness to 'unbelievers', if, and ONLY if,
1/  the 'unbelievers' willingly subjugate themselves in fromt of moslems, and if the 'unbelievers' do not resist moslem authority [over non-moslems],
AND,
2/ if 'unbelievers' accede that ISLAM is the superior religion/civil authority, and actively and publicly show to ISLAM, the respect which ISLAM and moslems 'deserve'.

Sounds almost reasonable, doesn't it ?

But let the slightest complaint come from the lips of the 'unbelievers' [who are under moslem governance], and once again the 'unbelievers' become the enemies of Allah, with all of the 'implications' [of violence] which that status brings.




Allah has declared it, unbelief, is a crime.

And rejecting moslem authority of [i.e. moslem enslavement of] 'unbelievers', is a crime.



"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11







In the world, within the ummah [i.e. the worldwide community of moslems], ISLAM promotes moslem superiority and ISLAMIC supremacism.

ISLAM is not here, in the world, to be equal, with anyone.

It is apostasy and it is a great crime for a moslem to seek to ALLOW non-moslems to have equality [in law, in society] with moslems.

Moslems, MUST have a superior position in society.

That is what ISLAM is about, moslem supremacism.




"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080ii

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 8:00pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm:
Abu,

I have no argument with teh sentiment expressed in those ISLAMIC passages.

And imo, those ISLAMIC passages do express a commendable attitude towards neighbours.

THOUGH THE TERM 'NEIGHBOUR' IS NOWHERE DEFINED IN THOSE PASSAGES.


But i will ask,   .....who are defined, as the 'neighbours' of moslems, Abu ???

Who are the people that moslems may be kind towards, Abu ???


Your neighbour according to Islam is anyone who lives around you in any direction, even up to 40 houses away.

The Prophet was asked: “Who is a neighbour?” He answered: “Your neighbours are forty houses ahead of you and forty houses to your back, and forty houses to your right and forty houses to your left.”



What is the Christian definition of a neighbour?





"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?........"


read it all....
Luke 10:25-37

Basically, any stranger, is our 'neighbor'.

i.e.
Even complete strangers and 'unbelievers' are to be regarded as our 'neighbors' - according to God.




Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...


n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18  But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...





+++


But not according to ISLAM....




"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089



"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98



"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51


"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28








"O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends.....offering them (your) love,..."
Koran 60.1



Abu,

Do moslems [in moslem majority nations] typically behave like 'Samaritans', towards poor NON-MOSLEM guests who are sojourning in their countries ?


Google;
abuse of non-muslim guest workers, "muslim countries"


Abu,

Doesn't it make you PROUD to be a moslem, when you see how moslems typically treat travelers and poor sojourners, in moslem majority nations ???
/sarc off




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:55am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 8:00pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm:
Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


No, you have lied. Nowhere does it state Muslims must NOT be kind to unbelievers. Please highlight the part where it states that.


The Qur'an in fact explicitly states that Allah does not forbid us being kind to those of the unbelievers who do not act aggressively towards us.





IMO, a more accurate rendition of your words would have read.....

"The Qur'an in fact explicitly states that Allah does not forbid us being kind to those of the unbelievers who do not act aggressively towards us - even though we moslems oppress unbelievers, in Sharia jurisdictions."



Oppression of  unbelievers, in Sharia jurisdictions ???

e.g.
Report: Pakistani women from religious minorities "are the victims of constant attempts at forced conversion or false charges of blasphemy"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/03/report-pakistani-women-from-religious-minorities-are-the-victims-of-constant-attempts-at-forced-conv.html





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 9th, 2012 at 7:40pm
“God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”
[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 9th, 2012 at 7:56pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 5:38am:
All language is encoding, if the encoding is more efficient it does not detract from the sentiment expressed.

Only a complete git would think otherwise.



2 b o nt 2 b
Dat da Q

Iz it Nobla 2 safa
Da Slings n Aroz o' bich luk



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?........"[/color][/i]

read it all....
Luke 10:25-37


Should I then just disregard it as you did with my statements about Islam's teachings about neighbours?


Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Basically, any stranger, is our 'neighbor'.

i.e.
Even complete strangers and 'unbelievers' are to be regarded as our 'neighbors' - according to God.


I think few Christians implement, or even believe this.


Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...


Yeh we know, like the Midianites, Amelekites etc.


Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Abu,

Do moslems [in moslem majority nations] typically behave like 'Samaritans', towards poor NON-MOSLEM guests who are sojourning in their countries ?


Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people. Interestingly I've met several non-Muslims (and people who are now Muslims, but were non-Muslims at the time) who travelled through the Middle East, visiting "Israel" also, and they all tell much the same story. Friendly, hospitable, welcoming Arabs, but arrogant, rude Jews.

Proof is in the pudding my friend, not in your empty words.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans, Hindus or solo women of any hue.

A woman travelling alone in 'Muslim lands' is doomed.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:21am

Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans, Hindus or solo women of any hue.

A woman travelling alone in 'Muslim lands' is doomed.

I'd agree with that Soren.  Not something I would choose to do.

Which almost brings us back on topic.
Said topic having been side-tracked by Abu and Yadda.  Altho, Yadda is definitely trying to keep it more relevant.
Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?   An incomplete question this one, so perhaps?-

Better to ask ..How does the Koran compare sex to rape.????  What is considered rape? ..and..
How does this apply, today, in real life??

You may not want to respond to the question,  :) :)   nevertheless, it has been asked, and I for one, would be very interested to have a  reasoned and knowledgable reply.



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:52am

Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans, Hindus or solo women of any hue.

A woman travelling alone in 'Muslim lands' is doomed.


I've spoken to both males and females who've said the same thing.

Never come across a Hindu who has travelled through the Middle East, but I have met some who worked in Saudi Arabia and said positive things about it, but I'm sure there's plenty who have not had such positive experiences, but same goes for Muslims. Many of the domestic servants who are abused in Saudi Arabia and gulf countries are Muslims, so the idea it's about mistreatment of non-Muslims by Muslims is nonsense.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:11am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:52am:

Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans, Hindus or solo women of any hue.

A woman travelling alone in 'Muslim lands' is doomed.


I've spoken to both males and females who've said the same thing.

Never come across a Hindu who has travelled through the Middle East.



They don't dare, do they?

You are also, predictably, silent on the solo lady traveller.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am

Quote:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people. Interestingly I've met several non-Muslims (and people who are now Muslims, but were non-Muslims at the time) who travelled through the Middle East, visiting "Israel" also, and they all tell much the same story. Friendly, hospitable, welcoming Arabs, but arrogant, rude Jews


Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?

What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.


Quote:
Proof is in the pudding my friend, not in your empty words.


Is that what the Bali bombers were making? Tourist pudding?


Quote:
You may not want to respond to the question,      nevertheless, it has been asked, and I for one, would be very interested to have a  reasoned and knowledgable reply.


Watch Abu and Falah desperately try to change the topic. Falah even started another thread trying to point out how bad rape is under Islamic law, but again could not point to any substantial difference between the punishment for rape and consensual sex. Islam punishes sex - the rape bit is trivial.

Except of course that the victim gets let off for having sex if it is rape. Is that the only difference Abu?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:34pm

Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans


I have travelled with a black African in the Middle East. I found that the Arabs there loved him. I am telling you Arabs loved this guy. Even at Saudi immigration he would talk to the guards and they would then give us preferential treatment and let us through ahead of everyone else.



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:52pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:

Quote:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people. Interestingly I've met several non-Muslims (and people who are now Muslims, but were non-Muslims at the time) who travelled through the Middle East, visiting "Israel" also, and they all tell much the same story. Friendly, hospitable, welcoming Arabs, but arrogant, rude Jews


Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?


You do realise that Bali is a Hindu country right?

Anyway, seeing as you brought that up we could ask victims of IRA bombings how they felt about that.


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.


Women are not jailed in Saudi for being raped. A woman in Saudi cannot be jailed for non-permitted sex if she has been raped.







freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:

Quote:
Proof is in the pudding my friend, not in your empty words.


Is that what the Bali bombers were making? Tourist pudding?


Is it reasonable to judge all Muslim countries, and 1 billion Muslim based on the actions of half a dozen radicals in Bali?

If the US had not invaded Afghanistan, the Bali bombing probably wouldn't have occurred in the first place.

Shall we judge all Christians based on the actions of George Bush? Afterall, millions of Christians voted for Bush twice. Nobody voted for the Bali bombers.




freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
Falah even started another thread trying to point out how bad rape is under Islamic law, but again could not point to any substantial difference between the punishment for rape and consensual sex. Islam punishes sex - the rape bit is trivial.


In Islam, there is a substantial difference the between the punishment for rape and and adultery. In cases of adultery, both parties are punished, in rape cases only the attacker is punished possibly with death.

In Islamic law, the rape victim is entitled to compensation from the attacker.

In Islamic law, the rapist can face extra punishment if he used a weapon.

It is deceptive for you to call adultery and fornication "consensual". Did God Almighty consent to this act? God created all human beings, he did not give permission for people to commit fornication or adultery.



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:52pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?

What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.


Do all the people murdered, raped, tortured etc. by Western soldiers count as part of the Christian approach to neighbourliness? Didn't think so. Only goes one way doesn't it? Your way.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:53pm

Soren wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:11am:
You are also, predictably, silent on the solo lady traveller.


One of the ones I have spoken to was a solo traveller, and she was also the most positive about the treatment she received.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?

What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.


Do all the people murdered, raped, tortured etc. by Western soldiers count as part of the Christian approach to neighbourliness? Didn't think so. Only goes one way doesn't it? Your way.


I was referring to the Muslim tradition of ignoring the rape and punishing the consensual sex. Civilised people don't do that.


Quote:
Women are not jailed in Saudi for being raped. A woman in Saudi cannot be jailed for non-permitted sex if she has been raped.


What if they were separate incidents?


Quote:
In Islam, there is a substantial difference the between the punishment for rape and and adultery. In cases of adultery, both parties are punished, in rape cases only the attacker is punished possibly with death.


So the punishment is the same, just that the victim gets let off?


Quote:
In Islamic law, the rape victim is entitled to compensation from the attacker.


So for the attacker, this is the only real difference - the financial penalty?


Quote:
In Islamic law, the rapist can face extra punishment if he used a weapon.


But not for the rape itself, which recieves the same punishment as consensual sex?


Quote:
It is deceptive for you to call adultery and fornication "consensual". Did God Almighty consent to this act? God created all human beings, he did not give permission for people to commit fornication or adultery.


Can you elaborate please? Do you know what consensual means?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:31pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:53pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:11am:
You are also, predictably, silent on the solo lady traveller.


One of the ones I have spoken to was a solo traveller, and she was also the most positive about the treatment she received.



I don't believe you.

Women travelling alone in Italy and Greece, let alone Turkey, do not have positive experinces. It is a lie that solo lady travellers in Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan have had positive experiences about their treatment. Unless they were travelling prostitutes. Which is how the men in those countries would have treated them.






Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 10th, 2012 at 7:25pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?

What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.


Do all the people murdered, raped, tortured etc. by Western soldiers count as part of the Christian approach to neighbourliness? Didn't think so. Only goes one way doesn't it? Your way.


I was referring to the Muslim tradition of ignoring the rape and punishing the consensual sex. Civilised people don't do that.


There is no basis in Islam for ignoring rape. Schoars of islam have said that even if the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse cannot be implemented due to lack of witnesses in the trial, then the victims word can still be taken and the rapist still face a deterrent punishment such as imprisonment.

Islamic scholars have expressly said that the victim should not be punished.



freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:
Women are not jailed in Saudi for being raped. A woman in Saudi cannot be jailed for non-permitted sex if she has been raped.


What if they were separate incidents?


People can only be punished in islam for what they have voluntarily done. There is no punishment for being forced to do something or crimes commited whilst considered inacapacitated eg. asleep, mentally ill, below the age of knowing right from wrong, etc.




freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:
In Islam, there is a substantial difference the between the punishment for rape and and adultery. In cases of adultery, both parties are punished, in rape cases only the attacker is punished possibly with death.


So the punishment is the same,


Ihave just explained to you that the punishment is not the same, there is a whipping or stoning, but also a financial penalty and also jailing. The rapist who uses a weapon faces further punishments such as double amputation or crucifixion


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:
just that the victim gets let off?


You insinuation is false. In Islamic law, a victim would not be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.




freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:
In Islamic law, the rape victim is entitled to compensation from the attacker.


So for the attacker, this is the only real difference - the financial penalty?


financial penalty, imprisonment or other deterrent punishment, and execution/crucifion/double amputation or exile if the crime involved a weapon.


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:
In Islamic law, the rapist can face extra punishment if he used a weapon.


But not for the rape itself, which recieves the same punishment as consensual sex?

No not the same. There is the added financial penalty, and the detererrent penalty such as imprisonment.


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Quote:
It is deceptive for you to call adultery and fornication "consensual". Did God Almighty consent to this act? God created all human beings, he did not give permission for people to commit fornication or adultery.


Can you elaborate please? Do you know what consensual means?


Consensual means all parties agree. As God owns all human beings, he is a party. Fornicators and adulterers do not have God's consent to carry out their crimes.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 10th, 2012 at 7:36pm

Soren wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:31pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:53pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:11am:
You are also, predictably, silent on the solo lady traveller.


One of the ones I have spoken to was a solo traveller, and she was also the most positive about the treatment she received.



I don't believe you.

Women travelling alone in Italy and Greece, let alone Turkey, do not have positive experinces. It is a lie that solo lady travellers in Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan have had positive experiences about their treatment. Unless they were travelling prostitutes. Which is how the men in those countries would have treated them.


When I was in Jordan, I actually saw an Australian woman living with the beouins at Petra. She looked pretty happy.

Yvonne Ridley said she was treated with respect by the Taliban despite entering their country without a visa.




http://www.journeywoman.com/gfc/egypt.html


http://www.journeywoman.com/gfc/20ThingsWomanShouldKnowIstanbul.html

http://www.journeywoman.com/girltalk/Jordan/TravellingtoJordan.htm

http://www.themanoftwistsandturns.com/2011/04/02/married-to-mohammadmarguerite-van-geldermalsen%E2%80%99s-writing-life-interview/

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 10th, 2012 at 8:15pm

falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 7:25pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
I was referring to the Muslim tradition of ignoring the rape and punishing the consensual sex. Civilised people don't do that.


There is no basis in Islam for ignoring rape. Schoars of islam have said that even if the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse cannot be implemented due to lack of witnesses in the trial, then the victims word can still be taken and the rapist still face a deterrent punishment such as imprisonment.

Islamic scholars have expressly said that the victim should not be punished.

People can only be punished in islam for what they have voluntarily done. There is no punishment for being forced to do something or crimes commited whilst considered inacapacitated eg. asleep, mentally ill, below the age of knowing right from wrong, etc.



So the punishment is the same,


Ihave just explained to you that the punishment is not the same, there is a whipping or stoning, but also a financial penalty and also jailing. The rapist who uses a weapon faces further punishments such as double amputation or crucifixion


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:00pm:
just that the victim gets let off?
[/b]

You insinuation is false. In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.

[quote author=564255555459465542300 link=1330935607/46#46 date=1331348446][quote]In Islamic law, the rape victim is entitled to compensation from the attacker.


So for the attacker, this is the only real difference - the financial penalty?


I think we understand pretty clearly......it's a one way street,,  the victim IS PUNISHED.!!!
What else is there to say, but convoluted verbiage cannot save you from you own words. !

.In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 10th, 2012 at 8:54pm

falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 7:36pm:
I actually saw an Australian woman living with the beouins at Petra. She looked pretty happy.


Travelling, beared numptie, travelling.

If that woman was living there, she would have been someone's chattel.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:32pm
thats the best you can do Falah? ::)

You said  ....  ' In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from'.

You said this ...Did you not??  Ignoring it won't make it go away.!
:-?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm

Quote:
Islamic scholars have expressly said that the victim should not be punished.


Like I said, it was a separate incident. There have been recent cases in the middle east where foreigners have reported a rape to local authorities only to get imprisoned for a different count of consensual sex. It's a bit hard to track down the rapist, but they admitted having sex consensually with someone else prior to the rape. So they got put in prison. As is Allah's will.


Quote:
Ihave just explained to you that the punishment is not the same, there is a whipping or stoning


For both consensual sex and rape, right?


Quote:
but also a financial penalty and also jailing


Yes Falah, you have pointed this out before. I have acknowledged it before, and also pointed out how strange it is that you can get stoned to death for consensual sex and fined and jailed for rape. I have asked you why you think being stoned to death is the lighter punishment. You have ignored this. Now we are doing it all over again. Are you up for round three?


Quote:
You insinuation is false. In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.


If it is rape, they do not get charged. If they consented to the sex, they do get charged. How is this insinuation false?


Quote:
Consensual means all parties agree. As God owns all human beings, he is a party. Fornicators and adulterers do not have God's consent to carry out their crimes.


I am not denying that you believe this. I am merely pointing out that the punishment for consensual sex is just as bad if not worse than that for rape. Adding a fine to the punishment for rape does not really change that and I am puzzled as to why you think it would make it appear any better.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:56pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm:
Like I said, it was a separate incident. There have been recent cases in the middle east where foreigners have reported a rape to local authorities only to get imprisoned for a different count of consensual sex.


Please provide an example, and ensure it is not someone who committed adultery, and then tried to use rape as a way of getting off.

Also are we talking about Islam here? Or what Middle Eastern countries implement in the post-Islamic era?

You regularly fail to stipulate which one it is, and then run off crying that nobody will answer your questions and we're all changing topic, just because you refuse to actually clarify what it is you're purporting to speak about.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 10th, 2012 at 11:35pm

Emma wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:32pm:
thats the best you can do Falah? ::)

You said  ....  ' In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from'.

You said this ...Did you not??  Ignoring it won't make it go away.!
:-?


That was simply a typo. Naturally, what was meant was that a rape victim would not be charged with illegal sexual conduct.


The rest of my posts should make that abundantly clear.




Quote:
There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her...

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 10th, 2012 at 11:41pm
another null response - from Abu this time.
  Is this so embarrassing to you??  so bad! 'cos you look bad...  your failure to reply to my specifically direct post seems to me to be TYPICAL.

Quick to claim Allah  is onside, but obviously not convinced.!
TYPICAL of the muslim male.... whatever country sect or whatever .... you are all the same in this.!!!

OK sorry -- that's a generalisation.  I understand there are a few, limited  parts of Islam that DO NOT seek to imprison and torture the women in their sway,,, but they ARE ..few and far between. and this pathetic effort by Falah and A R to pretend I didn't ask the question... in fact - is an example of the way they  believe... that I, being a white non-muslim female, am not a real person who even deserves an answer.  I refute that entirely, in all its layers.

So I'll say here, I'll get no reasoned or reasonable reponse from these spokesmen for Allah. And that is  sad, because,??????... I could go on..but I won't.

The ONLY (blatant , claimed male islamic )  response I ever get is from an apparent male moslem poster -- some twat  who calls  itself Karnal.

Surely you can do better ABU?  FALAH?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 10th, 2012 at 11:54pm

falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 11:35pm:

Emma wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:32pm:
thats the best you can do Falah? ::)

You said  ....  ' In Islamic law, a victim would be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from'.

You said this ...Did you not??  Ignoring it won't make it go away.!
:-?


That was simply a typo. Naturally, what was meant was that a rape victim would [u]not be charged with illegal sexual conduct.


The rest of my posts should make that abundantly clear.[/u]

Quote:
There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her...

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338



Abundantly clear???  No I don't think so - not at all.

In what circumstance could one even imagine the conditions you have stated for NOT punishing the victim be shown true.?? She must prove this else be punished. !!!

-There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her...

So absent witnesses for the woman, she is a goner.  I can only imagine  'this truth'  might just stand up if the woman was in her own compound, and some un-related male breached the home, and beat and raped her, in front of witnesses.  NOT LIKELY is it????

Hypocrits , large and small, you surely embrace it ALL.!! :-?



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 10th, 2012 at 11:59pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Quote:
Islamic scholars have expressly said that the victim should not be punished.


Like I said, it was a separate incident. There have been recent cases in the middle east where foreigners have reported a rape to local authorities only to get imprisoned for a different count of consensual sex. It's a bit hard to track down the rapist, but they admitted having sex consensually with someone else prior to the rape. So they got put in prison. As is Allah's will.


You don't have any references to back up this story? Even if that story were true, the woman has not been arrested for being raped has she?


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Quote:
Ihave just explained to you that the punishment is not the same, there is a whipping or stoning


For both consensual sex and rape, right?


For adultery or fornication, that is the maximum punishment for first offence. For the crime of rape it is the minimum punishment. Understand the difference? Is minimum and maximum too difficult a legal concept for you to grasp?


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Quote:
but also a financial penalty and also jailing


Yes Falah, you have pointed this out before. I have acknowledged it before, and also pointed out how strange it is that you can get stoned to death for consensual sex and fined and jailed for rape.

I didn't say that it would occur in that order. Although, obviously execution for a rapist is a severe punishment, and we don't usually go beyond simple executions.



freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm:
I have asked you why you think being stoned to death is the lighter punishment. You have ignored this. Now we are doing it all over again. Are you up for round three?


I never said it is the lighter punishment. In Islam, adultery (a married person having sex outside of marriage) is considered a serious crime, and it carries the death penalty.

All illegal; sex is bad, but obviously we cant do much more than execute the married rapist - unless he uses a weapon. Then he can face a double amputation as well as execution.




Quote:
You insinuation is false. In Islamic law, a victim would not be charged with illegal sexual conduct. So there is nothing to let them off from.



freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm:
If it is rape, they do not get charged. If they consented to the sex, they do get charged. How is this insinuation false?


If you are not insinuating that rape victims would be charged, then I don't know why you would even bother to bring it up in the first place.


freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

Quote:
Consensual means all parties agree. As God owns all human beings, he is a party. Fornicators and adulterers do not have God's consent to carry out their crimes.


I am not denying that you believe this. I am merely pointing out that the punishment for consensual sex is just as bad if not worse than that for rape. Adding a fine to the punishment for rape does not really change that and I am puzzled as to why you think it would make it appear any better.


As I said, the stoning/whipping is a maximum for illegal sex, but a minimum punishment for a rapist. Minimum and maximum do you understand what that means? The punishment for rape cannot be less than the punishment for illegal sex because the punishment for illegal sex is the minimum punishment for the rapist. If we execute the rapist, what more would you expect could be done to him? We can't make him die twice.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:16am

Quote:
Please provide an example, and ensure it is not someone who committed adultery, and then tried to use rape as a way of getting off.


No Abu. They voluntarily went in to report the rape. During the interrogation they admitted having consensual sex.


Quote:
Also are we talking about Islam here? Or what Middle Eastern countries implement in the post-Islamic era?


I guess it is a post Islamic thing, seeing as the punishment for consensual sex was not as barbaric as Islam proscribes.


Quote:
You regularly fail to stipulate which one it is


Given that you claim that no Islamic state exists, you can hardly blame me for your own confusion. But you would have to be pretty dishonest to rpetend that these attitudes and punishments are not a hangover from the days of Shariah. The only difference is they are not as barbaric.


Quote:
So absent witnesses for the woman, she is a goner.


Interesting that you should claim this, given that Abu's (and Falah's) first response to the story about a foreign rape victim getting put in jail for consensual sex was that she made up the rape story to cover her 'crime'. Is it any wonder that a rape victim who reports a crime voluntarily to Muslims ends up getting thrown in jail? And to think, Abu even tries to use the low reported rate of rape as evidence that the actual rate is lower than in countries where reporting is encouraged.


Quote:
For adultery or fornication, that is the maximum punishment for first offence. For the crime of rape it is the minimum punishment. Understand the difference?


You previously only mentioned stoning in the context of consensual sex. If being whipped then stoned to death is the minimum punishment for rape, why did you previously describe the extra puinishment of a fine and jail time on top of whipping? It sounds to me like you are making it up as you go along.


Quote:
I didn't say that it would occur in that order. Although, obviously execution for a rapist is a severe punishment, and we don't usually go beyond simple executions.


Here you go contradicting yourself again. Above you said it was the minimum penalty. Now it is the severe one?


Quote:
I never said it is the lighter punishment. In Islam, adultery (a married person having sex outside of marriage) is considered a serious crime, and it carries the death penalty.


And once more you contradict yourself. Is death penalty the statutory punishement or the maximum available punishment? As far as I can tell you agree with me that Islam does not distinguish between rape and consensual sex (you even reject this concept) in any significant way, buit you merely insist that I try to spin it the same way as you.


Quote:
All illegal; sex is bad, but obviously we cant do much more than execute the married rapist - unless he uses a weapon.


Can you explain the married bit here? Are you saying that the punishment for rape is made along the same lines as the punishment for consensual sex - that if the rapist is married he gets the same punishment as a married person who has sex outside of marriage? I am having trouble seeing why you appear to be disagreeing with me here.


Quote:
If you are not insinuating that rape victims would be charged, then I don't know why you would even bother to bring it up in the first place.


I'll give you a hint - look at the topic of this thread. I found a way in which Islam does distinguish rape and consensual sex - by not punishing the victim of rape (unless of course they can pin something else on her).


Quote:
The punishment for rape cannot be less than the punishment for illegal sex because the punishment for illegal sex is the minimum punishment for the rapist.


Right. My point exactly. And the 'extra' punishment for it being non-consensual is insignificant, unless you consider a fine to be harsher than getting stoned to death. That is, Islam equate sex and rape.


Quote:
If we execute the rapist, what more would you expect could be done to him? We can't make him die twice.


Again, you are right Falah. Islam equates sex and rape.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:51am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?........"[/color][/i]

read it all....
Luke 10:25-37


Should I then just disregard it as you did with my statements about Islam's teachings about neighbours?




Very disingenuous Abu.

BECAUSE ACCORDING TO ISLAM ALLAH.....

Neighbors, are moslem neighbors.

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29



And those that warrant mercy [kindness] from moslems, are ONLY those persons that enslave themselves, and submit themselves to ISLAM's authority over their lives.


"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong."
Koran 60.8, 9i

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Basically, any stranger, is our 'neighbor'.

i.e.
Even complete strangers and 'unbelievers' are to be regarded as our 'neighbors' - according to God.


I think few Christians implement, or even believe this.


If they don't, it does not excuse me from not taking it 'on-board'.

[and yes, i have invited complete strangers, who i met [in the supermarket] in town, and had them stay overnight in my home. and they were not even Christians.]







abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...


Yeh we know, like the Midianites, Amelekites etc.


Ah, you mean those people in the land that the God of Israel classed as criminals, BECAUSE OF THE THE WICKED THINGS THEY DID, and NOT because of who they were not ?


Leviticus 18:24
Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25  And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26  Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27  (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28  That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.


Leviticus 20:22
Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
23  And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.i


abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Abu,

Do moslems [in moslem majority nations] typically behave like 'Samaritans', towards poor NON-MOSLEM guests who are sojourning in their countries ?


Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people. Interestingly I've met several non-Muslims (and people who are now Muslims, but were non-Muslims at the time) who travelled through the Middle East, visiting "Israel" also, and they all tell much the same story. Friendly, hospitable, welcoming Arabs, but arrogant, rude Jews.

Proof is in the pudding my friend, not in your empty words.


Exactly so.




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 11th, 2012 at 10:13am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:56pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:18pm:
Like I said, it was a separate incident. There have been recent cases in the middle east where foreigners have reported a rape to local authorities only to get imprisoned for a different count of consensual sex.




Please provide an example, and ensure it is not someone who committed adultery, and then tried to use rape as a way of getting off.



Also are we talking about Islam here? Or what Middle Eastern countries implement in the post-Islamic era?

You regularly fail to stipulate which one it is, and then run off crying that nobody will answer your questions and we're all changing topic, just because you refuse to actually clarify what it is you're purporting to speak about.




e.g.
Queensland woman tells of her jail hell in UAE
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1301363758/3#3

Quote:

A 15 yr old boy, a French national, was raped in Dubai.
He and his mother tried to report the assault, as a male rape.
No can do, in Dubai.




[quote]

December 02, 2007
"MODERN" DUBAI SAYS MALE VICTIMS OF MALE RAPE ARE HOMOSEXUALS

The below horrific story of the kidnapping and violent rape of a young French man, a longtime resident of Dubai, is lengthy and concise so I will keep my comments to a minimum.

Aside from the crimes committed against this man what screams out from this article is both the refusal of Dubai to recognize homosexuality and to demonize it not only allows them to use it against a victim as in :

"They immediately reported the crime, going in person to the local police station. But Alex says the police doctor who examined him that night seemed intent on proving there was no rape, just a consensual sexual act between three men and a 15 year-old gay boy. "

but also as an Islamic means to inflict greater punishment on an innocent victim:

"Homosexuality is against the law in the UAE, where anyone found guilty of sodomy faces years in jail.... the French consul, was so worried a case was being built against Alex as an illegal homosexual he advised the boy and his mother to flee Dubai before he was arrested. "

http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/12/modern-dubai-sa.html


Google;
DUBAI SAYS MALE VICTIMS OF MALE RAPE ARE HOMOSEXUALS

[/quote]



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 11th, 2012 at 10:18am
That seems to be a common theme in Muslim countries. Even Abu and Falah leapt to the same conclusion without knowing anything about the case.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 11th, 2012 at 11:49am
Dubai is a British colonial state and does not operate according to islamic law. Its laws are mainly based on British laws:


Quote:
"It's no different than were we in America were a hundred years ago, right after or during the end of the Victorian era," said Hamden. "Even though we are seeing globalization, in the city that has defined globalization, were still seeing a value system that still looks like new Victorians."
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3932740&page=3#.T1wCUXlYWSo





Quote:
The Dubai government denies that the doctor accused Alex of being gay or that he was ever at risk of being charged with homosexuality.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3932740&page=3#.T1wCUXlYWSo


Dubai has charged the alleged perpetrators of the crime and they face a death penalty. So what is the issue?



Quote:
The two adult defendants, both of whom faced the death penalty, have denied all charges.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3932740&page=3#.T1wCUXlYWSo


Sound like the Dubai government wants to help victims and do what they can to make things better for victims:


Quote:
"We will look into the system, we'll see if there was anything deficient. And if we believe that there is any room for…improvement in that system of course we'll do that."


The Dubai government actually did not charge the victim and even gave a guarantee that that the victim would not be prosecuted:


Quote:
Armed with the promise that he would not be prosecuted, Alex returned to Dubai to testify against his alleged attackers.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3932740&page=3#.T1wCUXlYWSo

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:04pm
Hereis another example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case


The "Qatif Girl" Rape Case (Arabic: قضية اغتصاب فتاة القطيف‎) is a much-publicized gang-rape case. The victim was a teenage girl from Qatif (Eastern Province, Saudi Arabia), who, along with her male companion, was kidnapped and gang-raped by seven Saudi men in mid-2006. A Saudi Sharia court sentenced the perpetrators to varying sentences involving 80 to 1,000 lashes and imprisonment up to ten years for four of them. The court also sentenced the two victims to six months in prison and 90 lashes each for "being alone with a man who is not a relative" in a parked car. The appeals court doubled the victims' sentences in late 2007 as punishment for the heavy media coverage of the event in the international press regarding the treatment of women in the KSA and Saudi judicial practices. In December 2007 the Saudi King Abdullah issued an official pardon for the two victims, citing his ultimate authority to revise "discretionary" punishments in accordance with the public good, although the pardon did not reflect any lack of confidence in the Saudi justice system or in the fairness of the verdicts.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm
Falah, is this a good summary of typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist: death by stoning
Married adulterer: death by stoning

Unmarried rapist: whipping and a fine
Unmarried fornicator: whipping

Husband raping wife: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Husband having 'consensual' sex with wife: wife's duty

Owner raping a slave: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Owner having 'consensual' sex with a slave: likewise, no punishment

Is it fair to say that the only subsantial difference in Islam between sex and rape is that a rape victim is not punished but you can be stoned to dreath if it is consensual?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:57pm

falah wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Dubai is a British colonial state and does not operate according to islamic law. Its laws are mainly based on British laws:



Quote:
"It's no different than were we in America were a hundred years ago, right after or during the end of the Victorian era," said Hamden. "Even though we are seeing globalization, in the city that has defined globalization, were still seeing a value system that still looks like new Victorians."
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3932740&page=3#.T1wCUXlYWSo


Google;
dubai laws "are mainly based on British laws"

Google results;
"No results found for...... dubai laws "are mainly based on British laws". "


falah,

On what basis are you asserting that law in Dubai is mainly based on British laws ?




e.g.
Is it lawful for a Dubai woman, to marry a non-moslem, in Dubai ?

As a Christian, am i lawfully allowed to build a church in Dubai ?

As a Christian, am i lawfully allowed to OPENLY practice my faith in Dubai ?

As a Christian, am i lawfully allowed posses a Bible in Dubai, and if i wish, to distribute  Bibles to my friends, natives of Dubai,
.....YOU KNOW FALAH, COZ WE CHRISTIANS AND MOSLEMS, "ARE ALL PEOPLE OF THE BOOK" ?
/sarc off


British law extends these rights to 'aliens'.

Does Dubai law, which is "mainly based on British laws", do the same ???








falah wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 11:49am:

The Dubai government actually did not charge the victim and even gave a guarantee that that the victim would not be prosecuted:



Quote:
Armed with the promise that he would not be prosecuted, Alex returned to Dubai to testify against his alleged attackers.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3932740&page=3#.T1wCUXlYWSo



How jolly decent of them, eh what?





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 11th, 2012 at 1:59pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:51am:
Very disingenuous Abu.

BECAUSE ACCORDING TO ISLAM ALLAH.....

Neighbors, are moslem neighbors.


But I've already shown you where it mentions it is talking about neighbours of any faith.


Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:51am:
"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


Doesn't say anything about neighbours. These verses are referring to people who fight and attack the Muslims. Obviously such people are not extended neighbourly niceties.

It's quite telling that both you and "Avraham" are here trying to use the way Muslims deal with those who are waging war on them, as supposed examples of how unneighbourly they are.


Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:51am:
Ah, you mean those people in the land that the God of Israel classed as criminals, BECAUSE OF THE THE WICKED THINGS THEY DID, and NOT because of who they were not ?


Right... and likewise the verses you mentioned above are referring to those who fought against the Muslims, and did wicked things. Are you so blind as to see it in one case and not the other?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 11th, 2012 at 2:31pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:51am:
Very disingenuous Abu.

BECAUSE ACCORDING TO ISLAM ALLAH.....

Neighbors, are moslem neighbors.


But I've already shown you where it mentions it is talking about neighbours of any faith.



No,  ......that verse was only talking about dhimmis, those non-moslems who submit themselves to moslems and ISLAMIC law.

But even then, dhimmis, in moslem majority nations, are persistently and commonly persecuted - BECAUSE THEY ARE NON-MOSLEMS, and for no other reason.



Google;
persecution in muslim countries



And in their persecution of non-moslems, moslems are merely obeying Allah's own directive.



"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51


"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28



"O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends.....offering them (your) love,..."
Koran 60.1



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 11th, 2012 at 2:38pm
What about you Abu? Do you think this is correct?


freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
Falah, is this a good summary of typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist: death by stoning
Married adulterer: death by stoning

Unmarried rapist: whipping and a fine
Unmarried fornicator: whipping

Husband raping wife: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Husband having 'consensual' sex with wife: wife's duty

Owner raping a slave: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Owner having 'consensual' sex with a slave: likewise, no punishment

Is it fair to say that the only subsantial difference in Islam between sex and rape is that a rape victim is not punished but you can be stoned to dreath if it is consensual?


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 11th, 2012 at 4:07pm
fd, we've been over it before, I've told you my opinions. I will not bother banging my head against the wall again.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 11th, 2012 at 8:02pm
I commend your effort FD. :)

Don't they sound like pollies??  ;D

Your questions, and the responses were verrrrrrrryy  innnntterrrressssting. ;) Thanks.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 11th, 2012 at 8:59pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 4:07pm:
fd, we've been over it before, I've told you my opinions. I will not bother banging my head against the wall again.


Actually Abu, this whole equivalence of sex and rape thing is pretty new to me. You are right that we have been over some of the details before, and I hope I reproduced them correctly in that summary. But most of it is still pretty vague. I am especially intrigued by Falah's reference to a 'married rapist' as this appears to make the same distinction as is made for consensual sex. However for some reason he has gone all shy on me about it.

I do not think you have ever given me your opinion on whether Islam equates sex and rape. Going by the punishment, it is kind of hard to tell the difference isn't it?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:08pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 4:07pm:
fd, we've been over it before, I've told you my opinions. I will not bother banging my head against the wall again.

Not quite sure what the point is with all this prevarication, Abu... Of course a book written for the morality of the times it was written is going to include barbarian and draconian punishments on women... Given that they had no rights in the 7th century. Mohammed had no way of knowing what 21st century mores and morality would be... How could he? He wrote the book with his times in mind and for the people of that time.

It's not hard to name it, Abu... All it requires is intellectual honesty.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 12th, 2012 at 9:48am
You asked the exact same questions in your various threads about "sex slaves". Go back and read them if you've forgotten.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 12th, 2012 at 7:23pm
Did I ask whether Islam equates sex and rape? There are about a dozen different threads that have touched on different aspects of this question. What details you actually gave are in the wiki. The rest is very vague - hence my question.

For example, you have never mentioned the distinction between a married and an unmarried rapist before (as far as I know). Falah has only mentioned it once, then he got all shy about it.

To make it simple for you, is the list of punishments for sex and rape that I gave above correct? This would be a lot simpler than me reading through a few thousand pages of your past excuses for not answering questions.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 13th, 2012 at 12:54am

Emma wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 8:02pm:
I commend your effort FD. :)

Don't they sound like pollies??  ;D

Your questions, and the responses were verrrrrrrryy  innnntterrrressssting. ;) Thanks.



Exactly so.


And imo, they [Western pollies, and ISLAMISTS] both have the exact same 'snaky' 'nature'.



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 13th, 2012 at 7:02pm

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 7:23pm:
Did I ask whether Islam equates sex and rape? There are about a dozen different threads that have touched on different aspects of this question. What details you actually gave are in the wiki. The rest is very vague - hence my question.

For example, you have never mentioned the distinction between a married and an unmarried rapist before (as far as I know). Falah has only mentioned it once, then he got all shy about it.

To make it simple for you, is the list of punishments for sex and rape that I gave above correct? This would be a lot simpler than me reading through a few thousand pages of your past excuses for not answering questions.



There is nothing to be shy of. A married rapist may face execution depending on the circumstances.

An unmarried rapist may also face execution depending on the circumstances.


What does Judaism say about sucking baby penis?


Mohel Rabbi Yosef David Weisburg
The Jerusalem Post Magazine, Nov. 5, 1976, p. 14



The Jerusalem Post Magazine, Nov. 5, 1976, p. 14



Quote:
"The method to be adopted is laid down thus: 'One excises the foreskin, [that is] the entire skin covering the glans, so that the corona is laid bare. Afterwards, one tears with the finger-nail the soft membrane underneath the skin, turning it to the sides until the flesh of the glans appears. Thereafter, one sucks the membrane until the blood is extracted from the [more] remote places, so that no danger [to the infant] may ensue; and any circumciser who does not carry out the sucking procedure is to be removed [from his office].' . . . The operation itself, then, consists of three distinct acts: the excision of the prepuce; the laceration of the mucous membrane covering the glans; and the sucking of the blood from the interior of the wound." Immanuel Jakobovits. Jewish Medical Ethics: A Comparative and Historical Study of the Jewish Religious Attitude to Medicine and Its Practice. New York: Bloch Publishing Company. 1959. pp. 193-194.



Quote:
"The baby cried, blood flowed on to his penis and - as the rabbi had predicted - Graham [the godfather] did not faint. The rabbi then bent over the baby and sucked the wound. I know this sounds awful, but it is part of the Jewish tradition. It's supposed to help the healing." Jack Shamash. "My Son on the Cutting Edge." Independent (London), no. 3,797 (Thursday, December 17, 1998): p. R8.



Controversial circumcision ritual led to infant's death from herpes, says death certificate

The New York District Attorney's office is reportedly investigating the death of a 2-week-old boy who underwent metzizah b'peh, a controversial Orthodox Jewish ritual that involves orally sucking the blood from the circumcised baby's penis. According to the unidentified boy's death certificate, he contracted herpes simplex virus type 1 from the ritual, and passed away at a Brooklyn hospital in September 2011, the New York Daily News reported...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-57392437-10391704/controversial-circumcision-ritual-led-to-infants-death-from-herpes-says-death-certificate/

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 14th, 2012 at 2:52am
Falah

Deflecting like you did above doesn't distract anyone from the subject and only confirms what most of us already know... That Islamism and ultra-orthodox Jewish fundamentalism are the same... Aberrations within an ideal modern society... Which really defeats your likely purpose of having deflected in the first place.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:22pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 2:52am:
Falah

Deflecting like you did above doesn't distract anyone from the subject and only confirms what most of us already know... That Islamism and ultra-orthodox Jewish fundamentalism are the same... Aberrations within an ideal modern society... Which really defeats your likely purpose of having deflected in the first place.



Incorrect. Judaism teaches people to disobey God, and worship human beings. Islam teaches people to be monotheistic and obey God.

Sucking babies' penises is a purely Jewish ritual.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:47pm

falah wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:22pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 2:52am:
Falah

Deflecting like you did above doesn't distract anyone from the subject and only confirms what most of us already know... That Islamism and ultra-orthodox Jewish fundamentalism are the same... Aberrations within an ideal modern society... Which really defeats your likely purpose of having deflected in the first place.


Islam teaches people to be monotheistic and obey God.

That would be obey Muhammad's directions.


falah wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:22pm:
Sucking babies' penises is a purely Jewish ritual.

I'm sure it is.

And your reason for raising it in this thread would be...?


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 14th, 2012 at 2:33pm

falah wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:22pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 2:52am:
Falah

Deflecting like you did above doesn't distract anyone from the subject and only confirms what most of us already know... That Islamism and ultra-orthodox Jewish fundamentalism are the same... Aberrations within an ideal modern society... Which really defeats your likely purpose of having deflected in the first place.



Incorrect. Judaism teaches people to disobey God, and worship human beings. Islam teaches people to be monotheistic and obey God.

Sucking babies' penises is a purely Jewish ritual.




Judaism teaches the Jewish people to worship God.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5  And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.





ISLAM teaches moslems to worship Mohammed, and to bow down to, and to worship a Black Rock in the Kabaa, in Mecca.....




IMAGE...

Moslems, bowing down towards Mecca.


What is in Mecca ?

What are moslems bowing down towards ????
i



IMAGE....BLACK STONE, MECCA







+++


The Black Stone of the Kabaa in the Grand Mosque in Mecca, was an object of worship, in the paganism of the Arabian pagans, for 100's of years before Mohammed invented/fabricated ISLAM.

The origins of the Black Stone of the Kabaa is that it, the Black Stone, was a pagan object of worship.

The Black Stone, was a pagan object of worship - before Mohammed's time, it was a pagan object of worship in Mohammed's time, AND, it still is today.



The Black Stone of the Kabaa, is a pagan object of worship.




....."Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) faced the Black Stone, touched it, and then placed his lips on it and wept for a long time."

law/fiqhussunnah/fus5_76.html#5.74b





Syria Exposed - FOUR CORNERS 2012-02-20
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1329795404/12#12





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 14th, 2012 at 9:21pm
Can you show any actual historical source that Arabs worshipped the black stone in the Ka'aba?

I testify right now, anyone who worships this stone is an idolator like you and is heading straight for hellfire.

How is it you can claim for yourself any morality at all, when clearly each time you touch your keyboard, you do nothing but spew forth pure lies? Your entire existence is built upon nothing but falsehood.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 14th, 2012 at 9:52pm
aye the black stone!!

The Black Stone of the Kabaa, is a pagan object of worship. - Quote Yadda

Now being  a non-religious sort, I can see quite plainly why this Stone would have been an object of worship.,  it represents the mystery  - the mystery of life- of woman.!
That is pre-dates relatively late prophets like Mohammed is not surprising at all ,is it?

I can see its form - I have no knowledge of it's place in Islamism today, or before a monotheistic God came to the Arabian people. (if you want to put it that way).
It is powerful, - never seen it before, ! :-?
but I often 'doodle '  .. shapes and patterns, and this is a commonly recurring type of shape deeply rooted in our primeval brain.
I see no shame to any who might hold the essence in reverance,  ...surely only such as Karnal, Falah, and Abu?and Yadd? .???  find the idea anathema. Don't know, but seems typical of thinking that should have died out at least a couple of hundred(thousand) yrs ago.... but is kept alive by the hatred of men who MUST control their woman,  for fear of... ????.

See,.... people were around long before someone dreamed up God, and his prophets.
We REALLY DO NOT NEED RELIGION.... NO NOW... NOT ANYMORE...NOT AS AN EXCUSE ... for MURDER and MAYHEM>

RELIGION - ULTIMATELY, .. is damaging to us now as a people, (HUMANS) !!!

IT IS PAST ITS USE BY DATE.  Only those who clearly benefit  continue to push the money-train.

BAD ENOUGH that you believe in some supreme being that is all-knowing,!  BUT you use the idea to promote the basest of causes... the mutilation,.. murder, and subjugation of millions of folk all over the world, who probably wish they'd never heard of God.! The Almighty.!!  Be the name be Allah God Jesus Son of../.....


Once it might have been COSMIC  - NOW it's  a bad smell- that won't go AWAY.!!!!










Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 14th, 2012 at 9:56pm

falah wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:22pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 2:52am:
Falah

Deflecting like you did above doesn't distract anyone from the subject and only confirms what most of us already know... That Islamism and ultra-orthodox Jewish fundamentalism are the same... Aberrations within an ideal modern society... Which really defeats your likely purpose of having deflected in the first place.



Incorrect. Judaism teaches people to disobey God, and worship human beings. Islam teaches people to be monotheistic and obey God.

Sucking babies' penises is a purely Jewish ritual.



This is a lie.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 15th, 2012 at 12:32am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 9:56pm:

falah wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:22pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 2:52am:
Falah

Deflecting like you did above doesn't distract anyone from the subject and only confirms what most of us already know... That Islamism and ultra-orthodox Jewish fundamentalism are the same... Aberrations within an ideal modern society... Which really defeats your likely purpose of having deflected in the first place.



Incorrect. Judaism teaches people to disobey God, and worship human beings. Islam teaches people to be monotheistic and obey God.

Sucking babies' penises is a purely Jewish ritual.



This is a lie.



What? Sucking baby penis?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXiJK3grPOM

Infant Died After Contracting Herpes Through Circumcision

A two-week old infant died last fall in a Brooklyn hospital from herpes contracted from a religious circumcision. According to the Daily News, the unidentified infant died last September at Maimonides Hospital—the cause of death was listed as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.” The case sounds eerily similar to that of Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, a Rockland County mohel who was found to have given three babies herpes through the ritual.

Fisher specialized in the ultra-Orthodox ritual known as metzizah b’ peh, in which a rabbi or mohel removes blood from the wound with his mouth. One of those three babies infected with herpes by Fisher died, and the city Health Department filed a restraining order stopping Fisher from performing the procedure. But the city ultimately caved and handed the matter over onto a Jewish religious court.

http://gothamist.com/2012/03/03/infant_died_after_contracting_herpe.php

http://gothamist.com/2012/03/03/infant_died_after_contracting_herpe.php

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 15th, 2012 at 1:27am
Falah --
I  fail to see the relevance of this particular matter that you raise.!! ,  this nasty slant/bias/penchant.. you have,.. for things like ....  a baby dies,   because of a religious ritual. !! A Jewish ritual you say. Circumcision.

And YOU add this to a topic about Sex and Rape in Islam.
You feel attacked..?. so you respond in kind.!!. 


I wonder how many young women have died from the atrocious mutilation performed on them by your peers.  But you manage to dig up something about  "sucking  baby boy's penis's???" ARE you as RABID a PIG as you pretend?? Are you such a sick little piglet??  Are your peers the same??
No wonder such enmity exists.  When you drag everything back to SEX BY THE DECREE of GOD, you are trying desperately to go back to the past, ... where you never lived...but which seems so much better than now.. with all the WOMEN who won't be silent,  and all these UNBELIEVERS that WERE NOT given to ALLAH, .. and remain  untouched by your mightiness.

MUST BE TOUGH....(poor thing)
But then again, you can take it out on anyone you choose, who is beneath you.

YOU are like the CAT,  barked at and bitten by the Dog, . who in anger rips up the mouse.
SAD indeed.!!! [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif]



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 15th, 2012 at 12:25pm
Moroccan girl commits suicide after being forced to marry her rapist.

A 16 year old Moroccan girl has committed suicide after a judge ordered her to marry her rapist.

Morocaan penal code exempts a rapist from punishment if he agees to marry his victim.
Source-http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/03/14/200577.html


I suppose that puts a new angle on how to find a wife, what sort of buggered up society forces a man to marry his rape victim to avoid punishment.


Sheikh Hilaly did say if you dont like uncovered meat you must be a vegetarian homo.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 15th, 2012 at 1:15pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 9:21pm:


Can you show any actual historical source that Arabs worshipped the black stone in the Ka'aba?



I testify right now, anyone who worships this stone is an idolator like you and is heading straight for hellfire.





Allah - the Moon God
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

Quote:

The evidence reveals that the temple of the Moon-god was active even in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al- ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names.

....The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.,

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.

......"The most famous of all of the stone fetishes of Arabia was, of course, the black stone in the sanctuary of Mecca. The Kabah was, and still is, a rectangular stone structure. Built into its Eastern corner is the black stone which had been an object of worship for many centuries before Mohammed appropriated the Kabah for his new religion, and made the pilgrimage to this holy place one of the pillars of Islam"









abu_rashid wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 9:21pm:

How is it you can claim for yourself any morality at all, when clearly each time you touch your keyboard, you do nothing but spew forth pure lies? Your entire existence is built upon nothing but falsehood.



Not so.


"......Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."
Koran 2.256



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 15th, 2012 at 4:03pm

Emma wrote on Mar 15th, 2012 at 1:27am:
Falah --
I  fail to see the relevance of this particular matter that you raise.!! ,  this nasty slant/bias/penchant.. you have,.. for things like ....  a baby dies,   because of a religious ritual. !! A Jewish ritual you say. Circumcision.

And YOU add this to a topic about Sex and Rape in Islam.
You feel attacked..?. so you respond in kind.!!. 


I wonder how many young women have died from the atrocious mutilation performed on them by your peers.  But you manage to dig up something about  "sucking  baby boy's penis's???" ARE you as RABID a PIG as you pretend?? Are you such a sick little piglet??  Are your peers the same??
No wonder such enmity exists.  When you drag everything back to SEX BY THE DECREE of GOD, you are trying desperately to go back to the past, ... where you never lived...but which seems so much better than now.. with all the WOMEN who won't be silent,  and all these UNBELIEVERS that WERE NOT given to ALLAH, .. and remain  untouched by your mightiness.

MUST BE TOUGH....(poor thing)
But then again, you can take it out on anyone you choose, who is beneath you.

YOU are like the CAT,  barked at and bitten by the Dog, . who in anger rips up the mouse.
SAD indeed.!!! [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=thumbdown.gif]




I think that Jewish rabbis molesting babies by sucking their penises in bizarre rituals is relevant


The fact is that Islamic scholars do not mutilate girls, and in fact speak out against the practice which comes from ancient Egypt - not islam.

Meanwhile rabbis are sucking freshly cut baby penises

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 15th, 2012 at 4:16pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 15th, 2012 at 12:25pm:
Moroccan girl commits suicide after being forced to marry her rapist.

A 16 year old Moroccan girl has committed suicide after a judge ordered her to marry her rapist.

Morocaan penal code exempts a rapist from punishment if he agees to marry his victim.
Source-http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/03/14/200577.html


I suppose that puts a new angle on how to find a wife, what sort of buggered up society forces a man to marry his rape victim to avoid punishment.


Sadly Morocco does not follow Islamic law.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10170338


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 15th, 2012 at 4:41pm
so tell us Falah  - what actual places and peoples DO follow Islamic law. 

Any middle eastern countries at all???
:o

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 16th, 2012 at 12:10pm

Emma wrote on Mar 15th, 2012 at 4:41pm:


so tell us Falah  - what actual places and peoples DO follow Islamic law. 

Any middle eastern countries at all???

:o



Nope.




In fact, it seems to me, that the only 'REAL' moslems that any of us on OzPol have any knowledge of, are 1/ falah, and 2/ abu_rashid.

Everyone else, including those people within the M.E., are moslem 'impersonators' who are intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM, to non-moslems.
/sarc off



In truth, there is no example of the ISLAMIC 'idyllic'......anywhere in this world.

Rather, we only ever see moslem injustice, mayhem, and murder.......'rightfully' conducted in the name of Allah and his cause [.....being ISLAMIC supremacism]..............but that moslem violence is ALWAYS misrepresented to non-moslems, as 'a misrepresentation of true ISLAM'






+++



ISLAM itself justifies, and 'sanctifies', ISLAMIC violence....

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb, .......PROMOTING, JUSTIFYING, ISLAM's VIOLENT JIHAD

"Allah Akbar!!!!"






"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29



"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by The honky tonk man on Mar 16th, 2012 at 12:14pm

Quote:
In fact, it seems to me, that the only 'REAL' moslems that any of us on OzPol have any knowledge of, are 1/ falah, and 2/ abu_rashid.


try-hard muslims suffering from a bad case of sand dune fever

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:17pm
If it is only me and Abu Rashid, then how come the political party that wants to install Islamic law in Egypt one 29% of the parliamentary seats in the latest election?

Another party that wants to base Egypt's law on Islam won 38% of the seats.

Egypt has a population nearly 4 times greater than Australia. That would suggest that the number of people in Egypt who want Islamic law is greater than the total number of people in Australia.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:21pm

falah wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:17pm:
If it is only me and Abu Rahid, then how come the political party that wants to install Islamic law in Egypt one 29% of the parliamentary seats in the latest election?

Another party that wants to base Egypt's law on Islam won 38% of the seats.

Egypt has a population nearly 4 times greater than Australia. That would suggest that the number of people in Egypt who want Islamic law is greater than the total number of people in Australia.


They are illiterate, starving and stupid. There is a lot of them but they are not 'fully aware, enlightened, engaged citizens'.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:24pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:21pm:

falah wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:17pm:
If it is only me and Abu Rahid, then how come the political party that wants to install Islamic law in Egypt one 29% of the parliamentary seats in the latest election?

Another party that wants to base Egypt's law on Islam won 38% of the seats.

Egypt has a population nearly 4 times greater than Australia. That would suggest that the number of people in Egypt who want Islamic law is greater than the total number of people in Australia.


They are illiterate, starving and stupid. There is a lot of them but they are not 'fully aware, enlightened, engaged citizens'.


Sorehead, you live in the dark ignorance of God.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:28pm

falah wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:24pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:21pm:

falah wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:17pm:
If it is only me and Abu Rahid, then how come the political party that wants to install Islamic law in Egypt one 29% of the parliamentary seats in the latest election?

Another party that wants to base Egypt's law on Islam won 38% of the seats.

Egypt has a population nearly 4 times greater than Australia. That would suggest that the number of people in Egypt who want Islamic law is greater than the total number of people in Australia.


They are illiterate, starving and stupid. There is a lot of them but they are not 'fully aware, enlightened, engaged citizens'.


Sorehead, you live in the dark ignorance of God.

Gippo literacy:

total population: 71.4%
male: 83%
female: 59.4%

Forty-four percent of Egyptians live on less than $2 a day.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:35pm
So... still waiting to hear from you Falah..... about where in the world this Law is upheld. :-?


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 16th, 2012 at 10:35pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:28pm:
Gippo literacy:

total population: 71.4%
male: 83%
female: 59.4%

Forty-four percent of Egyptians live on less than $2 a day.


That is what decades of secularism has done for them.

When Egypt was an Islamic state it had the biggest universities and libraries in the world.

While Christian Europeans lived in the Christian Dark Ages, Muslims living in Islamic states advanced.

Studies began at Al-Azhar University in Egypt in 975 AD.  It had faculties in Islamic law and jurisprudence, Arabic grammar, Islamic astronomy, Islamic philosophy, and logic. Today it is the oldest university in the world.

Iraq had one of the biggest libraries in the world while it was ruled by an islamic state. The House of Wisdom was a library and translation institute established in Abbassid-era Baghdad, Iraq. It was a key institution in the Translation Movement and considered to have been a major intellectual centre during the Islamic Golden Age. The House of Wisdom was a society founded by Caliph Harun al-Rashid and culminating under his son al-Ma'mun, who reigned from 813–833 AD and is credited with its institution. Al-Ma'mun is also credited with bringing many well-known scholars to share information ideas and culture in the House of Wisdom Based in Baghdad from the 9th to 13th centuries, many of the most learned Muslim scholars were part of this excellent research and educational institute. It had the dual purpose of translating books from Middle Persian to Arabic and also of the preservation of translated books.

During the reign of al-Ma'mun, observatories were set up, and the House was an unrivalled center for the study of humanities and for science in medieval Islam, including mathematics, astronomy, medicine, alchemy and chemistry, zoology and geography and cartography. Drawing on Persian, Indian and Greek texts—including those of Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Hippocrates, Euclid, Plotinus, Galen, Sushruta, Charaka, Aryabhata and Brahmagupta—the scholars accumulated a great collection of world knowledge, and built on it through their own discoveries. Baghdad was known as the world's richest city and centre for intellectual development of the time, and had a population of over a million, the largest in its time.



Islamic Mali in its heyday had the biggest library in the world.

Timbuktu was a world centre of Islamic learning from the 13th to the 17th century, especially under the Mali Empire and Askia Mohammad I's rule.

Timbuktu’s rapid economic growth in the 13th and 14th centuries drew many scholars from nearby Walata, leading up to the city’s golden age in the 15th and 16th centuries that proved fertile ground for scholarship of religions, arts and science. An active trade in books between Timbuktu and other parts of the Islamic world and emperor Askia Mohammed’s strong support led to the writing of thousands of manuscripts.

Lecturing was presented through a range of informal institutions called madrasahs. Nowadays dubbed the ‘University of Timbuktu’, three madrasahs facilitated 25,000 students: Djinguereber, Sidi Yahya and Sankore.

Timbuktu served in this process as a distribution centre of scholars and scholarship. Its reliance on trade meant intensive movement of scholars between the city and its extensive network of trade partners. Many scholars left for Walata in 1591 with the Moroccan occupation.

Islamic education came under pressure after the French occupation, droughts in the 70s and 80s and by Mali’s civil war in the early 90s.


In Islamic Spain, the Umayyads wanted to be seen as intellectual rivals to the Abbasids, and for Córdoba to have libraries and educational institutions to rival Baghdad's. Although there was a clear rivalry between the two powers, freedom to travel between the two Caliphates was allowed, which helped spread new ideas and innovations over time.

The historian Said Al-Andalusi wrote that Caliph Abd-ar-Rahman III had collected libraries of books and granted patronage to scholars of medicine and "ancient sciences". Later, al-Mustansir (Al-Hakam II) went yet further, building a university and libraries in Córdoba. Córdoba became one of the world's leading centres of medicine and philosophical debate.

Numerous scholars emerged, including Abu Uthman Ibn Fathun, whose masterwork was the philosophical treatise "Tree of Wisdom". An outstanding scholar in astronomy and astrology was Maslamah Ibn Ahmad al-Majriti (died 1008), an intrepid traveller who journeyed all over the Islamic world and beyond, and who kept in touch with the Brethren of Purity. Indeed, it is said to have been he who brought the "Epistles of the Brethren of Purity" to al-Andalus and who added the compendium to this work, although it is quite possible that it was added later by another scholar of the name al-Majriti. 

A prominent follower of al-Majriti was the philosopher and geometer Abu al-Hakam al-Kirmani. A follower of his in turn was the great Abu Bakr Ibn al-Sayigh, usually known in the Arab world as Ibn Bajjah, "Avempace"

The Andalusian philosopher Averroes (1126–1198) was the founder of the Averroism school of philosophy, and his works and commentaries had an impact on the rise of secular thought in Western Europe. He also developed the concept of "existence precedes essence".

Another influential Andalusian philosopher who had a significant influence on modern philosophy was Ibn Tufail. His philosophical novel, Hayy ibn Yaqdhan, translated into Latin as Philosophus Autodidactus in 1671, developed the themes of empiricism, tabula rasa, nature versus nurture, condition of possibility, materialism, and Molyneux's Problem. European scholars and writers influenced by this novel include John Locke, Gottfried Leibniz, Melchisédech Thévenot, John Wallis, Christiaan Huygens,[48] George Keith, Robert Barclay, and Samuel Hartlib.

The English scientist Roger Bacon studied Latin translations of Spanish Arab scientific works.

In the 11th–12th centuries, astronomers in Al-Andalus took up the challenge earlier posed by Ibn al-Haytham, namely to develop an alternate non-Ptolemaic configuration that evaded the errors found in the Ptolemaic model. Like Ibn al-Haytham's critique, the anonymous Andalusian work, al-Istidrak ala Batlamyus (Recapitulation regarding Ptolemy), included a list of objections to Ptolemic astronomy. This marked the beginning of the Andalusian school's revolt against Ptolemaic astronomy, otherwise known as the "Andalusian Revolt".

In the late 11th century, al-Zarqali (Latinized as Arzachel) discovered that the orbits of the planets are elliptic orbits and not circular orbits.

In the 12th century, Averroes rejected the eccentric deferents introduced by Ptolemy. He rejected the Ptolemaic model and instead argued for a strictly concentric model of the universe. He wrote the following criticism on the Ptolemaic model of planetary motion:

    "To assert the existence of an eccentric sphere or an epicyclic sphere is contrary to nature. [...] The astronomy of our time offers no truth, but only agrees with the calculations and not with what exists."

Ibn Bajjah also proposed the Milky Way galaxy to be made up of many stars but that it appears to be a continuous image due to the effect of refraction in the Earth's atmosphere. Later in the 12th century, his successors Ibn Tufail and Nur Ed-Din Al Betrugi (Alpetragius) were the first to propose planetary models without any equant, epicycles or eccentrics.

In the late 11th century, Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Ma'udh, who lived in Al-Andalus, wrote a work on optics later translated into Latin as Liber de crepisculis, which was mistakenly attributed to Alhazen. This was a short work containing an estimation of the angle of depression of the sun at the beginning of the morning twilight and at the end of the evening twilight, and an attempt to calculate on the basis of this and other data the height of the atmospheric moisture responsible for the refraction of the sun's rays. Through his experiments, he obtained the accurate value of 18°, which comes close to the modern value.

In the early 13th century, the Andalusian-Arabian biologist Abu al-Abbas al-Nabati developed an early scientific method for botany, introducing empirical and experimental techniques in the testing, description and identification of numerous materia medica, and separating unverified reports from those supported by actual tests and observations. His student Ibn al-Baitar published the Kitab al-Jami fi al-Adwiya al-Mufrada, which is considered one of the greatest botanical compilations in history, and was a botanical authority for centuries. It contains details on at least 1,400 different plants, foods, and drugs, 300 of which were his own original discoveries. The Kitab al-Jami fi al-Adwiya al-Mufrada was also influential in Europe after it was translated into Latin in 1758.

The origins of the caravel ship, used for long distance travel by the Portuguese after the beginning of their overseas expansion in the 15th century, date back to the designs of the Cog, the Holk and the Dromon, but also possibly to the qarib used by explorers from Islamic Iberia in the 13th century.

Muslim physicians from Al-Andalus contributed significantly to the field of medicine, including the subjects of anatomy and physiology. Major figures of this period included Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (Abulcasis), author of the Kitab al-Tasrif ("Book of Concessions"), a 30-volume medical encyclopedia, and Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar), who made advances in surgery.



http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Boc0JjGRPF0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=george+saliba+islamic+science&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ULgwT4OMKcfgggfxmM2nBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=400%2C000&f=false


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 16th, 2012 at 10:43pm
Growth of knowledge In islamic States Cont.

Medicine was also studied in Islamic Spain. Muslim physicians from Al-Andalus contributed significantly to the field of medicine, including the subjects of anatomy and physiology. Major figures of this period included Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (Abulcasis), author of the Kitab al-Tasrif ("Book of Concessions"), a 30-volume medical encyclopedia, and Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar), who made advances in surgery.

Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (Abulcasis), the father of modern surgery, developed material and technical designs which are still used in neurosurgery. Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) gave the first accurate descriptions on neurological disorders, including meningitis, intracranial thrombophlebitis, and mediastinal germ cell tumors, and made contributions to modern neuropharmacology. Averroes suggested the existence of Parkinson's disease and attributed photoreceptor properties to the retina. Maimonides wrote about neuropsychiatric disorders and described rabies and belladonna intoxication.

As early as the 9th century, an essentially modern agricultural system became central to economic life and organization in the Arab caliphates, replacing the largely export-driven Roman model. It started with Zakat, an Islamic tax on large land holdings, which slowly broke the land monopoly of the nobility that had smothered the rural economy for centuries. Cities of the Near East, North Africa, and Moorish Spain were supported by elaborate agricultural systems which included extensive irrigation based on knowledge of hydraulic and hydrostatic principles.

The introduction of new crops transforming private farming into a new global industry exported everywhere, including Europe, where farming was mostly restricted to wheat strains obtained much earlier via central Asia. Spain received what she in turn transmitted to the rest of Europe; many agricultural and fruit-growing processes, together with many new plants, fruit and vegetables. These new crops included sugar cane, rice, citrus fruit, apricots, cotton, artichokes, aubergines, and saffron. Others, previously known, were further developed. Several were later exported from Spanish coastal areas to the Spanish colonies in the New World. Also transmitted via Muslim influence, a silk industry flourished, flax was cultivated and linen exported, and esparto grass, which grew wild in the more arid parts, was collected and turned into various articles.

The process of getting all of these new crops was not as easy as some might assume it was. It was difficult to take these new plants and fruits to the Iberian Peninsula. The economic implications were enormous. By having so many new crops people began to become more healthy and due to this there was a great economic upturn in this time.

After Toledo was invaded by Christian forces in 1085, the work of many Islamic scholars, that previously could have only be accessed by Muslims, especially in Al-Andalus and Islamic Sicily, finally found its way into European science. These scholars most translated new scientific and philosophical texts from Arabic into Latin.

One of the most productive translators in Castile was Gerard of Cremona, who translated 87 books from Arabic to Latin, including Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī's On Algebra and Almucabala, Jabir ibn Aflah's Elementa astronomica, al-Kindi's On Optics, Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Kathīr al-Farghānī's On Elements of Astronomy on the Celestial Motions, al-Farabi's On the Classification of the Sciences, the chemical and medical works of Razi, the works of Thabit ibn Qurra and Hunayn ibn Ishaq, and the works of Arzachel, Jabir ibn Aflah, the Banū Mūsā, Abū Kāmil Shujā ibn Aslam, Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi, and Ibn al-Haytham (including the Book of Optics).

With the fall of the Emirate of Granada in 1492, the scientific and technological initiative of the Islamic world was inherited by Europeans and laid the foundations for Europe's Renaissance and Scientific Revolution

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 16th, 2012 at 10:45pm
... waits for soren to traipse out his usual braindead responses about all Islamic advances merely being borrowed from the Greeks & Persians ...

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 16th, 2012 at 11:14pm
Falah I have no argument with your prev 2 posts.

While most of Europe and the Britsh Isles were still in the 'dark ages' Arab scholars were setting the known world afire with advances. But - these were advances in knowledge, science and the Arts.  How can we say otherwise when we use the arabic number system today, in this modern world.!!
Sadly, the wise men of the faith could not follow.  And they still remain with their souls in the 14th century. 
If  - lets just say IFthe faith as held by devout Moslems  was for the betterment of human kind, the world would now be as Allah required.  All of the world would have been won over.

But.. it is clear from all we know, and have heard seen and read, that THIS IS NOT the case. How can that be??? 
You, and all radical fundamentalists of any stripe should realise by now that your way is anathema to most of the peoples of the world. That the only way  you seem able to concieve of winning the war for souls is thru violence and slavery.
And that WAY is the wrong way.!!!

As some one said - ' the proof of the pudding is in the eating'..  And it seems that the current flavour of Islam is pretty BAD.
Shame on you all that you have allowed your peoples to decline into such arcane rigidity, in order to assert your superiority. When ,  have to say fellas, we are all equal.
Perhaps Islamic scholars should move into the real world, rather then try to grasp for the glories of the past.!!!!




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 16th, 2012 at 11:20pm

Emma wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 11:14pm:
If  - lets just say IFthe faith as held by devout Moslems  was for the betterment of human kind, the world would now be as Allah required.  All of the world would have been won over.

But.. it is clear from all we know, and have heard seen and read, that THIS IS NOT the case. How can that be???


Who are you to dictate to God what should and shouldn't be according to your own whims about how things should or shouldn't turn out?

God has all throughout history tested the believers with adversity, that is the way the reality is and has always been.

So your claims that "If you're right, then you must be the dominant culture, always, and forever" is just nonsensical.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 16th, 2012 at 11:49pm
]If  - lets just say IFthe faith as held by devout Moslems  was for the betterment of human kind, the world would now be as Allah required.  All of the world would have been won over.

But.. it is clear from all we know, and have heard seen and read, that THIS IS NOT the case. How can that be???[/quote]

Who are you to dictate to God what should and shouldn't be according to your own whims about how things should or shouldn't turn out?

God has all throughout history tested the believers with adversity, that is the way the reality is and has always been.
So your claims that "If you're right, then you must be the dominant culture, always, and forever" is just nonsensical.[/quote]- Abu Rashid

I am just me....little old me.
I am talking to you!!!Not dictating to (God)!!
Its only because of people like you, that the concept of GOD has such seeming power in the world of flesh and blood.
My position is that violence, slavery and subjugation is no way to win over people.

That both Christian and Moslem believe in the power of the sword over the power of the pen is an indictment of both creeds.!!!!!!!!!

Abu you have to face it, in earlier posts it was made clear that Arabs worshipped other deities before Allah. Until someone came along and - all of a sudden - we have -- one god, and one god only.
A purely HUMAN INVENTION.!!!! For purely human reasons.!!

SO I'm talking to YOU.
Not your evolved Moon God.! ::)

God has all throughout history tested the believers with adversity, that is the way the reality is and has always been.

Ahhh.. the way reality is, and has always been.

Boy have you religious mugs been conned.!!! ;D 





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am

falah wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 10:35pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:28pm:
Gippo literacy:

total population: 71.4%
male: 83%
female: 59.4%

Forty-four percent of Egyptians live on less than $2 a day.


That is what decades of secularism has done for them.



Yeah and?
The west has been secular for even longer and look at the difference: it is rich, smart, comfortable. You can pursue your religion - or become a poet, musician, scientist, industrialist, cartoonist and people will let you. Books are translated, plays are staged, music and dance are performed, conversations unfold and political differences are resolved peacefully and cooperatively.

What have the Muslims done with secularism? Sink even further than they were under the caliphate between the 17th and early 20th century. Islam stagnates because it has nothing to talk about except the Koran and Mohammed and the perfidious Jews.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:52am

falah wrote on Mar 15th, 2012 at 4:16pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 15th, 2012 at 12:25pm:
Moroccan girl commits suicide after being forced to marry her rapist.

A 16 year old Moroccan girl has committed suicide after a judge ordered her to marry her rapist.

Morocaan penal code exempts a rapist from punishment if he agees to marry his victim.
Source-http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/03/14/200577.html


I suppose that puts a new angle on how to find a wife, what sort of buggered up society forces a man to marry his rape victim to avoid punishment.


Sadly Morocco does not follow Islamic law.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10170338




Quote:
A minister in Morocco's Islamist government on thursday called for a change to a law allowing a rapist to marry his victim after a 16 yo teenager forced into such a union committed suicide.
http://www.france24.com/en/20120315-moroccan-minister-challenges-law-rapists-marry-victims-hakkaoui-amina-filali-suicide-poison



Quote:
Gulnaz was convicted of adultery because she had sex outside of marriage by being raped.
After falling pregnant to her attacker ,she and the baby were jailed for 12 years.
She has been given the choice to marry her rapist and be freed from jail
Source-http://www.muslimwomennews.com/n.php?nid=6545


The State religion in Morocco is Islam.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 17th, 2012 at 12:53pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:52am:
A minister in Morocco's Islamist government on thursday called for a change to a law allowing a rapist to marry his victim after a 16 yo teenager forced into such a union committed suicide.


A mildly Islamist-leaning political party was recently put into power by the King, to placate the people and try to avert Egypt/Tunisia/Libya style uprisings.

And... your quote says they are trying to get rid of these ridiculous unIslamic laws. Thanks.


Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:52am:
The State religion in Morocco is Islam.


Technically yes, but legislation is not based on Islam, and has not been for about a century or two. And since we are talking about laws, not token state sanctioned religions, your claims are therefore moot.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 17th, 2012 at 12:54pm

Quote:
There is nothing to be shy of. A married rapist may face execution depending on the circumstances.

An unmarried rapist may also face execution depending on the circumstances.


Are those circumstances any different to those for deciding the punishment for consensual sex (by this I mean the English definition of consensual sex, not the Muslim one where consent depends on whether Islamic law approves). Does the punishment for rape only differ from the punishment for consensual sex if there is a weapon involved?

If a married rapist may not get the death penalty, does this mean that Islam is actually more lenient on rape than consensual sex?

Also, if there is nothing to be shy of, why the aburd answer of 'it depends' followed by such a desperate attempt to change the topic?


Quote:
And your reason for raising it in this thread would be...?


Because the Islamic punishment for sex and rape is nothing to be shy about? Even though neither Abu nor Falah can bring themselves to clarify how Islam distinguishes rape and consensual sex?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 17th, 2012 at 1:19pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 12:53pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:52am:
A minister in Morocco's Islamist government on thursday called for a change to a law allowing a rapist to marry his victim after a 16 yo teenager forced into such a union committed suicide.


A mildly Islamist-leaning political party was recently put into power by the King, to placate the people and try to avert Egypt/Tunisia/Libya style uprisings.

And... your quote says they are trying to get rid of these ridiculous unIslamic laws. Thanks.



Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:52am:
The State religion in Morocco is Islam.


Technically yes, but legislation is not based on Islam, and has not been for about a century or two. And since we are talking about laws, not token state sanctioned religions, your claims are therefore moot.


Yes they are using that unIslamic concept called democracy in Morocco to repeal this law.


Quote:
Constitution
Preamble-
With fidelity to its irreversible choice to construct a Democratic state of law the Kingdom of Morocco is resolutely pusues the process of consolidation and of reinforcement of the institutions of a modern  state

A sovereign muslim state, Islam is the religion of the state

Source-http://www.ancl-radc.org.za/sites/default/files/morocco_eng.pdf


We also see Afghan girls forced to marry their rapist to avoid punishment for being raped.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Frances on Mar 17th, 2012 at 1:32pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 1:19pm:
We also see Afghan girls forced to marry their rapist to avoid punishment for being raped.


Which is absolutely disgusting.  A woman deserves support after being the victim of rape, not punishment - why punish her when she hasn't done anything wrong?  And, as for forcing her to marry the rapist, that would have to be one of the most heartless punshments imaginable for a rape victim.  I can imagine why she would contemplate suicide....

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 17th, 2012 at 2:51pm

Frances wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 1:32pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 1:19pm:
We also see Afghan girls forced to marry their rapist to avoid punishment for being raped.


Which is absolutely disgusting.  A woman deserves support after being the victim of rape, not punishment - why punish her when she hasn't done anything wrong?  And, as for forcing her to marry the rapist, that would have to be one of the most heartless punshments imaginable for a rape victim.  I can imagine why she would contemplate suicide....


A woman needs 4 male witnesses to report a rape otherwise she risks being punished for being raped.
Google "UAE rape victim jailed".


Mohammad married  Juwariya and Safiyya on the same day he killed their hubands along with all the other men  and stealing all their wealth.

Mohammad ordered a fire be lit on Safiyya's husbands chest to torture hm into revealing where the tribes wealth was hidden,they chopped his head off and Mohammad married Safiyya that very night.

Muslims will say Mohammad was a kind man who married widows.

Safiyya had to spend the rest of her life with the guy who ordered her husband to be tortured and killed.

Muslims will expect rational people to believe Safiyya consented to marry Mohammad on the same day he had her husband killed.

Abu and Falah should read this before attempting to spin Safiyya's marriage-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome







Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 17th, 2012 at 2:55pm
This is the beauty of Islam. You slaughter the men, rape the women (in a dignified manner of course), and everyone lives happily ever after.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:18pm

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:

falah wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 10:35pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 9:28pm:
Gippo literacy:

total population: 71.4%
male: 83%
female: 59.4%

Forty-four percent of Egyptians live on less than $2 a day.


That is what decades of secularism has done for them.



Yeah and?

...and did I mention Western-backed dictators.



Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:
The west has been secular for even longer and look at the difference: it is rich, smart, comfortable.


Oh really?

USA Rich, Smart, Comfortable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ3RrqBqk14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDIsOqq6yko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWCPAXgrm2U

















Greece?














Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:
You can pursue your religion - 


Hey Sorehead, ever heard of Maimonides? One of the greatest scholars of Judaism. What type of government do you think he lived under? Christian? Secular? The fact is he lived his entire life under islamic law.


Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:
or become a poet,

Funny you should mention that, because I have found that Arabs love poetry, and poetry is a very important part of their culture.


Quote:
Arabic literature (Arabic: الأدب العربي, al-Adab al-‘Arabī‎) is the writing produced, both prose and poetry, by writers in the Arabic language. The Arabic word used for literature is adab which is derived from a meaning of etiquette, and implies politeness, culture and enrichment.

Arabic literature emerged in the 5th century with only fragments of the written language appearing before then. The Qur'an, widely regarded as the finest piece of literature work in the Arabic language, would have the greatest lasting effect on Arabic culture and its literature. Arabic literature flourished during the Islamic Golden Age, but has remained vibrant to the present day, with poets and prose-writers across the Arab world achieving increasing success.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_literature




Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:
musician,

Did you know that the ancestor of the guitar and violin came to Europe through Muslims. The words "lute" is derived from Arabic al‘ud (العود; literally "the wood")





Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:
scientist


Sorehead, we have already discussed the fact that whilst faith in Islamic religion was strong, there were many scientists in the Arab, Persian and Turkish world. Meanwhile Christian priests forbid people from learning to read.



Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:
industrialist [quote]

not sure what this means? You think only secularists can become industrialists? Did you know that Muslims invented the concept of a bank cheque?
Muslim traders used bank cheques in the Abbassid Caliphate more than 1000 years ago.

Islamic Golden Age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age



Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:
Books are translated


Translators are not rewarded as handsomely as they were under the Islamic Caliphate, where translators were paid a books weight in gold as reward for their work.


Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:06am:
conversations unfold and political differences are resolved peacefully and cooperatively.


Conversations Unfolding In Germany:



USA









[quote]The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre[2][3][4]—occurred at Kent State University in the U.S. city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.

Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_massacre





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:36pm
And yet - nobody is migrating to Muslim countries to enjoy the benefits of Islam. Not even you. Funny that.

Plenty of muslims, on the other hand, can't wait to get the hell outa Muslim countries into the terrible West.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?








Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:45pm
Falah - any comment on whether Islam equates sex and rape - you know, the topic that you have no reason to be shy of?


freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 12:54pm:

Quote:
There is nothing to be shy of. A married rapist may face execution depending on the circumstances.

An unmarried rapist may also face execution depending on the circumstances.


Are those circumstances any different to those for deciding the punishment for consensual sex (by this I mean the English definition of consensual sex, not the Muslim one where consent depends on whether Islamic law approves). Does the punishment for rape only differ from the punishment for consensual sex if there is a weapon involved?

If a married rapist may not get the death penalty, does this mean that Islam is actually more lenient on rape than consensual sex?

Also, if there is nothing to be shy of, why the aburd answer of 'it depends' followed by such a desperate attempt to change the topic?

[quote]And your reason for raising it in this thread would be...?


Because the Islamic punishment for sex and rape is nothing to be shy about? Even though neither Abu nor Falah can bring themselves to clarify how Islam distinguishes rape and consensual sex?[/quote]

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:01pm

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:36pm:
And yet - nobody is migrating to Muslim countries to enjoy the benefits of Islam. Not even you. Funny that.

Plenty of muslims, on the other hand, can't wait to get the hell outa Muslim countries into the terrible West.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?




Can you tell me which country ruled by Islamic law I could migrate to? Obviously you can't because there are none.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:10pm

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:45pm:
Falah - any comment on whether Islam equates sex and rape - you know, the topic that you have no reason to be shy of?

Islam does not equate sex and rape. Does driving equate to drink driving?

Does rape involve sex? Yes. Drink-driving involves driving, so what is your point?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:16pm
Have you answered whether you think rape is allowed in marriage yet?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:28pm

falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:45pm:
Falah - any comment on whether Islam equates sex and rape - you know, the topic that you have no reason to be shy of?

Islam does not equate sex and rape. Does driving equate to drink driving?

Does rape involve sex? Yes. Drink-driving involves driving, so what is your point?


Well, let's start with the question that you have been asked about a dozen times already - the one you think there is no need to be shy about - how does Islam differentiate rape and consensual sex?


freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
Falah, is this a good summary of typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist: death by stoning, or a lesser punishment
Married adulterer: death by stoning

Unmarried rapist: whipping and a fine
Unmarried fornicator: whipping

Husband raping wife: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Husband having 'consensual' sex with wife: wife's duty

Owner raping a slave: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Owner having 'consensual' sex with a slave: likewise, no punishment

Is it fair to say that the only substantial difference in Islam between sex and rape is that a rape victim is not punished but you can be stoned to dreath if it is consensual?


[edited for accuracy]

Feel free to be specific in your response.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:38pm
Another interesting question - if you refuse to acknowledge the concept of consensual sex as being anything other than sex which Islam permits, how do you define rape?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:45pm

falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:01pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:36pm:
And yet - nobody is migrating to Muslim countries to enjoy the benefits of Islam. Not even you. Funny that.

Plenty of muslims, on the other hand, can't wait to get the hell outa Muslim countries into the terrible West.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?




Can you tell me which country ruled by Islamic law I could migrate to? Obviously you can't because there are none.


What does that tell you about Islam?? Why is there no Islamic country if Islam is so goddam super? Why has Islam been a synonym for sickly and backward for 600 years?

Islam became an obvious anachronism 500 years ago. It has remained an anachronism ever since and is maintained in that state of enforced ignorance by its own rigid and stupid rules. islamic countries are backward because of islam.




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:51pm

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:28pm:

falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:45pm:
Falah - any comment on whether Islam equates sex and rape - you know, the topic that you have no reason to be shy of?

Islam does not equate sex and rape. Does driving equate to drink driving?

Does rape involve sex? Yes. Drink-driving involves driving, so what is your point?


Well, let's start with the question that you have been asked about a dozen times already - the one you think there is no need to be shy about - how does Islam differentiate rape and consensual sex?


freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
Falah, is this a good summary of typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist: death by stoning, or a lesser punishment
Married adulterer: death by stoning

Unmarried rapist: whipping and a fine
Unmarried fornicator: whipping

Husband raping wife: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Husband having 'consensual' sex with wife: wife's duty

Owner raping a slave: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Owner having 'consensual' sex with a slave: likewise, no punishment

Is it fair to say that the only substantial difference in Islam between sex and rape is that a rape victim is not punished but you can be stoned to dreath if it is consensual?


[edited for accuracy]

Feel free to be specific in your response.


So what about the rape victims who get stoned to death ?


Quote:
A Somali girl who said she had been raped  has been stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery,
source-http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2008/11/2008111201216476354.html



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:04pm
You know there is more than 1 times in last 5 years in arab countrys when girl - most time also under 18 yrs - say that she been raped by arab men and then what is happens is the girl is accuse of saying lie,,

Then girl is sentenced by court and sometimes killed.

Arabs has terrible bad laws for women and they is very bad in treatment of women in their countrys.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:08pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:04pm:
You know there is more than 1 times in last 5 years in arab countrys when girl - most time also under 18 yrs - say that she been raped by arab men and then what is happens is the girl is accuse of saying lie,,

Then girl is sentenced by court and sometimes killed.

Arabs has terrible bad laws for women and they is very bad in treatment of women in their countrys.


Do you agree with Abu's view that this is all the fault of western interference in those countries and that local Muslims are not to blame?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:10pm

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:08pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:04pm:
You know there is more than 1 times in last 5 years in arab countrys when girl - most time also under 18 yrs - say that she been raped by arab men and then what is happens is the girl is accuse of saying lie,,

Then girl is sentenced by court and sometimes killed.

Arabs has terrible bad laws for women and they is very bad in treatment of women in their countrys.


Do you agree with Abu's view that this is all the fault of western interference in those countries and that local Muslims are not to blame?



No,, not at all. This rules and laws come from Arab and Muslims laws,,

Look Somalia stonings of rape girls,, this is from Islamic groups not western support Governments ect

Nothing, is just silly to say this. Total Islamic laws,

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:15pm

Quote:
this is from Islamic groups not western support Governments ect


Yes but I am sure Abu can dig up a photo of those Islamic leaders shaking hands with a foreigner, which proves it is the foreigners' fault that rape victims get treated so horribly.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:40pm

Frances wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 1:32pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 1:19pm:
We also see Afghan girls forced to marry their rapist to avoid punishment for being raped.


Which is absolutely disgusting.

A woman deserves support after being the victim of rape, not punishment - why punish her when she hasn't done anything wrong?

And, as for forcing her to marry the rapist, that would have to be one of the most heartless punshments imaginable for a rape victim.  I can imagine why she would contemplate suicide....




Frances,

"A woman deserves support after being the victim of rape, not punishment - why punish her when she hasn't done anything wrong?"

That is a very rash statement to make, isn't it ???

A raped woman, is a woman isn't she ?

And she has a vagina, hasn't she ?

Therefore, a woman, is just asking to be raped!

And if a woman is raped, then why wasn't she in the protective custody of her husband, or a male relative ???


It is totally outrageous for a woman [who is in possession of a vagina] not to expect to be raped if she is not in the protective custody of her husband, or a male relative !

That, is just common sense.

EXCUSE MY CALLOUS SARCASM [above].






Those cultural 'norms' [expressed above], promoted by ISLAMIC culture, are designed  [wherever moslem men are common] to force all women to adopt, behavior and dress, which is acceptable to moslems.

The moslem intimidation, abuse, and rape of non-moselm women, is a means of, a form of, ISLAMIC JIHAD, against the un-ISLAMIC host culture.

And the moslem intimidation, abuse, and rape of 'disrespectful' [to ISLAM] moslem women, within moslems majority Sharia jurisdictions, is a means of a cultural control and punishment of disrespectful, rebellious women.

ISLAM uses ['lawful'] societal terror, to illicit compliance, to ISLAMIC social mores, and control.

Always has done, it always will.

'Lawful' societal terror, is how the ISLAMIC regime, gains, and maintains control.


Mohammed, from the Hadith....

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): ......"
hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.220


'Lawful' societal terror.....

"Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City....whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy)."
Koran 33.60,61



+++

Within the un-ISLAMIC host culture, the rape of those women who disrespect moslem cultural mores [i.e. by their dress, outwardly showing 'disrespect' for Sharia law], is designed to change that societal attitude among non-moslem women.

This sexual violence is intentionally designed, to make non-moslem women feel unsafe, esp. around moslem men, unless they show respect TO ISLAM, by wearing headscarves.

THE SOLE OBJECTIVE, IS TO ILLICIT CULTURAL RESPECT, AND FEAR, FOR ISLAM AND MOSLEMS.

i.e.
TO MAKE THE WORLD 'ISLAM', BY USING USING 'LAWFUL' VIOLENCE AND TERROR.

Google;
rape Jihad

MOSLEM RAPE, OF ANY 'DISRESPECTFUL' WOMAN, IS INTENTIONAL, IT IS CULTURALLY ENCOURAGED.


It is a cultural thing.

e.g.
An Australian journalist, Latika Bourke, outside a mosque, in Australia, was verbally abused, BECAUSE SHE WAS NOT CONFORMING TO ISLAMIC DRESS CODES [outside of a mosque].

Dress "offensive" to Islam | thetelegraph.com.au
www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/.../story-e6freuzi-1111113571868
20 May 2007 – Twenty-three-year-old journalist Latika Bourke was verbally attacked ... You need to cover up, you mutt','' Ms Bourke, who works for 2UE Radio, ...



Google;
Latika Bourke, "You need to cover up, you mutt"




Google;
bilal skaf, rape, women uncovered, has no right to say no


Google;
bilal skaf, rape, she has no right to say no



Unprotected women, are 'available', to be raped, by men.

Sex attacks, in countries like Australia, ARE THE FAULT OF WOMEN [according to moslem cultural mores].....

Google;
rape, uncovered women, cat meat


A [respectful to ISLAM] moslem woman, is [normally regarded by moslems men as] a 'protected' woman.



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 17th, 2012 at 11:57pm

falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:01pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:36pm:
And yet - nobody is migrating to Muslim countries to enjoy the benefits of Islam. Not even you. Funny that.

Plenty of muslims, on the other hand, can't wait to get the hell outa Muslim countries into the terrible West.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?




Can you tell me which country ruled by Islamic law I could migrate to? Obviously you can't because there are none.



THAT IS A GREAT SHAME.

For people like Soren and myself, at least.
/sarc off


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Yadda on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:32am

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:45pm:

falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:01pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:36pm:
And yet - nobody is migrating to Muslim countries to enjoy the benefits of Islam. Not even you. Funny that.

Plenty of muslims, on the other hand, can't wait to get the hell outa Muslim countries into the terrible West.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?




Can you tell me which country ruled by Islamic law I could migrate to? Obviously you can't because there are none.


What does that tell you about Islam?? Why is there no Islamic country if Islam is so goddam super? Why has Islam been a synonym for sickly and backward for 600 years?

Islam became an obvious anachronism 500 years ago. It has remained an anachronism ever since and is maintained in that state of enforced ignorance by its own rigid and stupid rules.

islamic countries are backward because of islam.




AND YET.......even 'nominal' moslems, who are living in the West, seem to maintain a high regard and high degree of respect for their >> own << ISLAMIC culture.

Even when those same moslems, tell the West, that they [moslems], must come to live in the West, because they [moslems], are being persecuted, in their >> own << moslem majority homelands.



And yet those same moslems [the ones seeking, and obtaining sanctuary] will often demonstrate their respect for their >> own << ISLAMIC culture, by resorting to violence against non-moslems, and against their non-moslem host nation.

Dictionary;
sanctuary = = a place of refuge or safety.





+++

I have no respect for moslems, for anyone who declares, "I am a moslem".

I have no respect for anyone who chooses to associate themselves, with the mores and laws, and the 'lawful' violence of ISLAM.


ISLAM teaches moslems LAWLESSNESS [and 'lawful' violence], imo.

And ISLAM teaches moslems cultural parasitism, imo.

e.g.
Moslems insist that they want to come to live in the West, to live in a culture which moslems will often openly declare that they despise.

Yet many of those very same moslems [who despise Western culture] at the very same time, refuse to stay in their own homelands, to fight [to 'struggle'] and work for their own culture, to engage in moslem nation building, to establish the 'ISLAMIC ideal' in their own homelands.

Instead, moslems come to the West, so as to make the West, like the hell holes, which moslems say they despise, fear, and have fled from.



Cognitive dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is a psychological term to define the condition that results whenever an individual attempts to hold two incompatible, if not contradictory, thoughts at the same time even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:32am
yes, and for people like me.! or perhaps , more importantly people like Frances. :)

And Yadda -your response to Frances was particularly effective.   As have been earlier comments from other posters about what DOES happen to any woman who does not have a male 'protector' or 4 to stand for her..... any woman... doesn't matter.!!  I mean... how pathetic is that???.... Moslem men are incapable of controlling their basest urges so women must be kept in chains.   It is a damning indictment of them as men.  I mean ... a man.... someone who stands up and protects those weaker than him. Guess that would be incomprehensible to you  eh Falah?  No comprende.!!


Yadda your post was entirely relevant to the topic,  and I think there is nothing much else for Abu or Falah to say on the subject. Their position is clear. :(

I wonder where all this will lead, and where it will end.. :(
From posts above I myself am a woman who has disrespected the teachings of Mohammed.. (supposedly)..!?? so any moslem male can feel righteous ....raping me....if he ever got the chance.!!

From somewhere I thought the Koran, much like the Bible, became corrupted by the interpreters, the scribes, the new prophets.  As I understand it, as Mohammed became older, and after his death in particular, most of his 'reasonable' edicts were turned on their heads. Much like the schisms in Christianity, the original message has been lost!@! 

Don't follow falsehood.!!


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:33am

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:28pm:

falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:45pm:
Falah - any comment on whether Islam equates sex and rape - you know, the topic that you have no reason to be shy of?

Islam does not equate sex and rape. Does driving equate to drink driving?

Does rape involve sex? Yes. Drink-driving involves driving, so what is your point?


Well, let's start with the question that you have been asked about a dozen times already - the one you think there is no need to be shy about - how does Islam differentiate rape and consensual sex?


The only consensual sex recognised in Islam is that which occurs between a man married to a woman.

As I said before their are at least three stakeholders involved in any sexual relationaship; the most important one being the Creator, God Almighty.

The Creator has only given his consent for his creation to have sex in the confines of marriage. Any other sex is non-consensual.


freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
Falah, is this a good summary of typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist: death by stoning, or a lesser punishment

Do you have alearning disability or something? I have been telling you that stoning would be the minimum punishment, and that there would be more punishments on top of that, but you somehow think that the punishment would be less. Amazing.

I will state it for the last time: Punishment for a married rapist is death by stoning, and a fine, and other punishments to be decided by the judge such as floggings, amputations, crucifixions, etc.


freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
Married adulterer: death by stoning

Yes, if the crime was witnessed by at least four people, or there is a confession, and the person was a willing participant - which includes the concept of not being insane, below the age of puberty, etc.



freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
Unmarried rapist: whipping and a fine

Yes, if the crime was witnessed by at least four people, or there is a confession, and the person was a willing participant - which includes the concept of the accused not being insane, or below the age of puberty, etc.


freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
Unmarried fornicator: whipping

Yes, if the crime was witnessed by at least four people, or there is a confession, and the person was a willing participant - which includes the concept of the accused not being insane, or below the age of puberty, etc.



freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:
Is it fair to say that the only substantial difference in Islam between sex and rape is that a rape victim is not punished but you can be stoned to dreath if it is consensual?


Consensual rape? Not quite sure how that works.

Strange world you inhabit.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:41am

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:45pm:

falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:01pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:36pm:
And yet - nobody is migrating to Muslim countries to enjoy the benefits of Islam. Not even you. Funny that.

Plenty of muslims, on the other hand, can't wait to get the hell outa Muslim countries into the terrible West.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?




Can you tell me which country ruled by Islamic law I could migrate to? Obviously you can't because there are none.


What does that tell you about Islam?? Why is there no Islamic country if Islam is so goddam super?



So when was the last time that a country was ruled according to Biblical law? More than 2000 years? What does that tell you about Judaism and Chrsitianity? That their adherents are just hypocrites who only pay lip-service to their religion, but do not really believe.

When Christians were at their most religious, they lived in the Dark Ages and their priest told them that they shouldn't read.

When Muslims were at their most religious, it was a golden age for science and learning.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:51am
"The Creator has only given his consent for his creation to have sex in the confines of marriage. Any other sex is non-consensual"....Quote - Falah  ... and Falah continues.....>>>

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm:

Falah, is this a good summary of typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist: death by stoning, or a lesser punishment .??

Falah continues>>>
...Do you have alearning disability or something? I have been telling you that stoning would be the minimum punishment, and that there would be more punishments on top of that, but you somehow think that the punishment would be less. Amazing.

>>>I will state it for the last time: Punishment for a married rapist is death by stoning, and a fine, and other punishments to be decided by the judge such as floggings, amputations, crucifixions, etc.

????? Que??

Min. punishment, death by stoning......
Bit hard to add those other punishments... Hmmm perhaps not...after all,  you can always cut off an arm or '?' ...flog  'm , hang 'm up , and let everyone stone them to death. Oh I see,  so thats what COULD happen to a 'married rapist'.!!

BUT has it EVER??? Presuming a rapist cannot be a woman,  who victim or not, is readily condemned .. :(

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:56am

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:51pm:
So what about the rape victims who get stoned to death ?


Quote:
A Somali girl who said she had been raped  has been stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery,
source-http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2008/11/2008111201216476354.html




This is a fabricated report made up by the enemies of the Shabab government.

Her age was 23 not 13:


Quote:
Hardline Somali Muslims have stoned to death a 23-year-old woman for adultery

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/somalia/3274129/Islamists-stone-adulterous-Somali-woman-to-death.html



Quote:
A local Islamist leader said the woman, Aisho Ibrahim Dhuhulow, had pleaded guilty to committing adultery.

"She was asked several times to review her confession but she stressed that she wanted Sharia law and the deserved punishment to apply," said Sheikh Hayakallah.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7694397.stm








Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:58am
How stark a contrast the reality is from the bovine faeces peddled by the enemies of truth.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:01am

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:32am:
I wonder where all this will lead, and where it will end.. :(
From posts above I myself am a woman who has disrespected the teachings of Mohammed.. (supposedly)..!?? so any moslem male can feel righteous ....raping me....if he ever got the chance.!!


You need to see a psychiatrist. There is no basis for you claims, and they indicate a sick demented mind.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:13am

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:51am:
Min. punishment, death by stoning......
Bit hard to add those other punishments... Hmmm perhaps not...after all,  you can always cut off an arm or '?' ...flog  'm , hang 'm up , and let everyone stone them to death.


Nobody said the stoning would have to come first.


Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:51am:
BUT has it EVER??? Presuming a rapist cannot be a woman,  who victim or not, is readily condemned .. :(



Somalia : Al Shabab stone a man to death for rape



Al Shabaab issued a statement that reported the group’s public stoning to death of an alleged rapist in Berdaale in Bay region in southern Somalia on December 10.

The statement says that the 30-year-old man, Adam Isaac Adam, raped a Muslim girl at knife-point.

He confessed to his crime and was then sentenced to death.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7617885-somalia-al-shabab-stone-a-man-to-death-for-rape


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:18am
True???

So I haven't engaged your just wrath.?? That is a relief I have to say. :P

appreciate the pics of the stonee too.   :);)

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:22am
I find behavior of Muslims & Arabs to women and to victims like you see in Somalia,,

it makes me very sad how they are treated by Islamist groups in Arab world,,

They should hold shame,

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:22am
errrrrrrrrrr
BUT the name of the man stoned to death was clearly NOT a muslim name.  So this man condemned to death by stoning was a Christian.???
AFRAID this doesn't SUPPORT your case.! ::) ::) ::)


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:25am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:22am:
I find behavior of Muslims & Arabs to women and to victims like you see in Somalia,,

it makes me very sad how they are treated by Islamist groups in Arab world,,

They should hold shame,



I do so agree.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:55am

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:22am:
errrrrrrrrrr
BUT the name of the man stoned to death was clearly NOT a muslim name.  So this man condemned to death by stoning was a Christian.???
AFRAID this doesn't SUPPORT your case.! ::) ::) ::)


Are you that ignorant? I know many Muslims named Adam. Adam is the name of a revered prophet in Islam. The name "Adam" appears 25 times in the Quran.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:03am

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:22am:
I find behavior of Muslims & Arabs to women and to victims like you see in Somalia,,

it makes me very sad how they are treated by Islamist groups in Arab world,,

They should hold shame,


Oh really? Jews treat women with respect do they?


Quote:
Orthodox Israelis Spit On Whorish 8-Year-Old Girl For Going To School



An American girl attempting to walk to her Jewish school in Israel is subjected to daily taunting and physical intimidation so bad that she says it makes her afraid to go to school. Her tormenters aren't fellow children, but rather adult men upset by the presence of the "immodest" girls attending school in their ultra-Orthodox neighborhood. And now, the town's male residents are clashing with police and media over their the gender integration they say insults their faith. Eight-year-old girls can be such whores.

The case of 8-year-old Naama Margolese, who was born in Chicago, has upset some Israelis, and for good reason. She says she's afraid to walk to her all-girls school in Beit Shemesh, near Jerusalem, because of taunting from Ultra-Orthodox men. They spit on her, call her a whore, throw rocks, and shout at her. As a result, Naama says her "tummy hurts" when she walks to school.

Not that it should matter, but Margolese isn't full glitzing down the street in a Nicki Minaj outfit, gaily skipping off to Toddlers & Tiaras & Kippahs school during these impromptu stoning sessions; she's walking to an Orthodox all girls' school in her uniform, which consists of a long skirt, a high-necked, long sleeved shirt. But the clothing of Naama and her classmates, modest by nearly any other standard, are not modest enough for the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish men of Beit Shemesh. Parents attempting to escort their daughters to the school are also subjected to the same treatment.

In recent months, tension between the secular, Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Beit Shemesh have escalated, especially with the erection of an all-girls school the Ultra-Orthodox say is encroachment on their beliefs. The community has erected signs warning sidewalk walkers to remain separated by gender and deployed "modesty patrols" designed to make sure the natural sluttery of women is kept in check

http://jezebel.com/5871293/orthodox-israelis-spit-on-whorish-8+year+old-girl-for-going-to-school



Jewish laws and regulations concerning menstruating women are extremely restrictive. The Old Testament considers any menstruating woman as unclean and impure. Moreover, her impurity "infects" others as well. Anyone or anything she touches becomes unclean for a day: "When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening" (Lev. 15:19-23)

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:05am

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:51am:
Presuming a rapist cannot be a woman


Presume not!

Mum charged with rape of own daughter after allegedly inviting man she met on internet into her home

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/mum-charged-with-rape-of-own-daughter-after-allegedly-inviting-man-she-met-on-internet-into-her-home/story-e6freoof-1226302462724

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:51am
This should not devolve into an argument about who is more barbarous in the treatment of women, Muslims or Jews.  That entirely misses the point.
As for the 'News' that women can also be sexual abusers....not news, and the example you so helpfully provide is irrelevant in the context..

And your exposure of Jewish extreme orthodoxy, is no more surprising to me than your own particular brand of religious persecution of women.

I MUST SAY  --  NONE OF IT IS ACCEPTABLE, APPROPRIATE OR VALID.
NONE of IT!!  NOT A JOT.!  NO CRUMB of CREDIBILITY EXISTS IN EITHER LOONINESS.

saying/pointing to your opposite as justification for your own actions is craven and self-defeating. And the postings are becoming very tiresome.

It's a bit like hmmm the Gatling gun -  spew out enough bullets that some might hit a target.!!
Not a reference you are familiar with??  Hmmm?

I will say here and now ... my position is this.........

ANY FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGIOUS ACTIVISTS constitute  a real danger to social cohesion in any State you wish to point at.
Of that I am convinced.  And, there isn't much I believe in.!!




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:45am
Falah, thanks for giving a detailed response. It only took 8 pages. Unfortunately, your responses only raise more questions than they answer, given your tendency to contradict yourself.


Quote:
The only consensual sex recognised in Islam is that which occurs between a man married to a woman.


What about slaves?

Can you tell the difference between legal and consensual? Or is this yet another example of Muslims redefining words so you cannot even ask them a question?


Quote:
Do you have alearning disability or something? I have been telling you that stoning would be the minimum punishment, and that there would be more punishments on top of that, but you somehow think that the punishment would be less. Amazing.


I can only go by what you say Falah. When you first responded, you left out stoning altogether as a punishment for rape. You later claimed that there are no additional punishments on top of stoning.


Quote:
I will state it for the last time: Punishment for a married rapist is death by stoning, and a fine, and other punishments to be decided by the judge such as floggings, amputations, crucifixions, etc.


Are you making this up as you go along? Can you explain how someone can be crucified and stoned?


Quote:
Yes, if the crime was witnessed by at least four people


Falah, why does rape need at least four witnesses for a conviction? I thought this only applied to consensual sex?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 18th, 2012 at 9:07am
3. And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.

4. And give to the women (whom you marry) their Mahr (obligatory bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) with a good heart, but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it, and enjoy it without fear of any harm (as Allah has made it lawful).



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 18th, 2012 at 9:27am

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:51am:
This should not devolve into an argument about who is more barbarous in the treatment of women, Muslims or Jews.


You left out "or Western Christians/Secularists". After all, a great deal of the barbarity against women is committed right here in your own backyard, yet you seem oblivious to it.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Frances on Mar 18th, 2012 at 9:47am

falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:03am:
Jewish laws and regulations concerning menstruating women are extremely restrictive. The Old Testament considers any menstruating woman as unclean and impure. Moreover, her impurity "infects" others as well. Anyone or anything she touches becomes unclean for a day: "When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening" (Lev. 15:19-23)


Interesting that this otherwise irrelevant post from galah (one of many) is almost identical in content to a number of comments he made to me in another thread.  So it seems that the attitudes of Islam and Judaism to menstruating women is pretty much the same.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:07am

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:45am:
Falah, thanks for giving a detailed response. It only took 8 pages. Unfortunately, your responses only raise more questions than they answer, given your tendency to contradict yourself.


Quote:
The only consensual sex recognised in Islam is that which occurs between a man married to a woman.


What about slaves?


First of all, the only source of slaves allowed in Islam, is from those people who wage war against an Islamic state. Of these people, slavery is not guaranteed. The Islamic government can decided to ransom them, or free them with no price as a gesture of good will.

Slaves can be allocated by the government to those who fought for the Islamic state, as these are men who have sacrificed everything for God Almighty; there is nothing more that man can offer than his own life in service to God Almighty. Being allocated slaves was like a small compensation for the physical and mental trauma that soldiers faced in fighting for God Almighty.

The fact is that Islam does not encourage slavery, but actually discourages it. There are no verses in the Quran telling Muslims to take slaves, but there are verses which encourage Muslims to set slaves free.

The slave who becomes a concubine is considered like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic actually comes from the word for marriage.

In Islam, it is forbidden to force slaves into sexual service (which was common practice in non-Islamic society).

In Pre-Islamic Arabia, warriors would rape female captives on the battle field (and this is quite normal for non-Muslim armies as we have seen in Bosnia, or with the 2 million German women gangraped by Soviets after WWII. Islam forbade this evil.


If we consider the action of Australia's ally, the US, in raping and sodomising prisoners of war at Gunatanamo Bay, Bagram and Abu Ghraib, Islam forbids this sort of sexual torture - which does not seem to shame Australia. Australia is still a willing participant in these wars despite the terrible sexual violence perpetrated by it ally, the US.


Quote:
1. Sexual Assault/Humiliation Techniques

Detainees in US custody in Abu Ghraib, Kandahar and Bagram (where many were taken to before Guantanamo) have reported being sodomised with broomsticks, a ‘chemical light’ or rifles. Other forms of sexual humiliation reported have been; parading men naked in front of female soldiers, forcing them to wear women’s underwear and dance with other men, forcing them to undress in front of female interrogators and guards, touching their genitals or provoking them in a ‘humiliating’ way and forcing them to watch pornography. Most detainees in U.S. custody have alleged that they were either raped, threatened with rape, or anally probed. Sexual violence is a war crime. Sexual humiliation is used to induce feelings of humiliation and fear.

http://thejusticecampaign.org/?page_id=273



freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:45am:
Can you tell the difference between legal and consensual? Or is this yet another example of Muslims redefining words so you cannot even ask them a question?


God, the Creator, is a stakeholder in the activities of his creation. To claim that something that He has forbidden can be consensual, is disrespectful to God.






freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:45am:

Quote:
I will state it for the last time: Punishment for a married rapist is death by stoning, and a fine, and other punishments to be decided by the judge such as floggings, amputations, crucifixions, etc.


Are you making this up as you go along? Can you explain how someone can be crucified and stoned?


Obviously, the judge would choose some of the punishments in exclusion of some others depending on the circumstances of the case which would include the severity of the crime and the need for deterrence. Incidentally, these are things which judges in Australia are required to cosider when sentencing.


Quote:
Yes, if the crime was witnessed by at least four people


Falah, why does rape need at least four witnesses for a conviction? I thought this only applied to consensual sex?[/quote]


I didn't say that there needs to be four witnesses for a conviction. A conviction can be obtained through a confession or the testimony of a victim. Some of the punishments

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:01am

Quote:
The slave who becomes a concubine is considered like a wife


Does she count towards the limit of four? Does she have any choice in the matter?


Quote:
In Islam, it is forbidden to force slaves into sexual service


Are you talking about forcing her to have sex with other men besides her owner? Or is it forbidden for her owner to have sex with her without her consent?


Quote:
To claim that something that He has forbidden can be consensual, is disrespectful to God.


No it isn't. It is just stating a fact. It is speaking English, for that is the meaning of the word consent. You yourself use the term 'willing participant' often enough. Why are you capable of understanding what this means but incapable of understanding what consent means?


Quote:
Obviously, the judge would choose some of the punishments in exclusion of some others depending on the circumstances of the case which would include the severity of the crime and the need for deterrence. Incidentally, these are things which judges in Australia are required to cosider when sentencing.


Can you explain how someone can be crucified and stoned?


Quote:
I didn't say that there needs to be four witnesses for a conviction. A conviction can be obtained through a confession or the testimony of a victim. Some of the punishments


Again you change your story. Falah, go back and read what you actually posted, and stop pretending it is my fault you make no sense. Given that you have spent ten pages trying to avoid giving any details, one would expect that when you finally got round to it you would at least attempt to get it right and not contradict yourself yet again. Or at least, to finish your sentences. This is what you posted regarding the punishment for an unmarried rapist:


Quote:
Yes, if the crime was witnessed by at least four people, or there is a confession, and the person was a willing participant

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:32pm

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:01am:

Quote:
To claim that something that He has forbidden can be consensual, is disrespectful to God.


No it isn't. It is just stating a fact. It is speaking English, for that is the meaning of the word consent. You yourself use the term 'willing participant' often enough. Why are you capable of understanding what this means but incapable of understanding what consent means?


In rape, the rapist has consented. Does that mean the sex is consensual? No, because at least one of the stakeholders has not consented. In case of fornication or adultery, there is still one stakeholder who has not consented, and that is God Almighty.




freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:01am:

Quote:
I didn't say that there needs to be four witnesses for a conviction. A conviction can be obtained through a confession or the testimony of a victim. Some of the punishments


Again you change your story. Falah, go back and read what you actually posted, and stop pretending it is my fault you make no sense. Given that you have spent ten pages trying to avoid giving any details, one would expect that when you finally got round to it you would at least attempt to get it right and not contradict yourself yet again. Or at least, to finish your sentences. This is what you posted regarding the punishment for an unmarried rapist:

[quote]Yes, if the crime was witnessed by at least four people, or there is a confession...
[/quote]

The four witness or confession does not concern the conviction of rape. It is the required evidence threshold for imposing the stoning punishment, not the requirement for a rape conviction.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:45pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 9:27am:

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:51am:
This should not devolve into an argument about who is more barbarous in the treatment of women, Muslims or Jews.


You left out "or Western Christians/Secularists". After all, a great deal of the barbarity against women is committed right here in your own backyard, yet you seem oblivious to it.


See how Islam treats the women,
Must walk behind husband must cover all body and can be rape then be stone to death,

See Israeli we has girls serve in army as colleague to us,, they has good weapon skill too.

See my you tube from my unit as we welcomes in new girls, treat them well as well,,

Tell me where is woman treat this way in Arab land?
No where

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:57pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:45pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 9:27am:

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:51am:
This should not devolve into an argument about who is more barbarous in the treatment of women, Muslims or Jews.


You left out "or Western Christians/Secularists". After all, a great deal of the barbarity against women is committed right here in your own backyard, yet you seem oblivious to it.


See how Islam treats the women,
Must walk behind husband must cover all body and can be rape then be stone to death


Are sure that is a good way to represent your Jewish nation? With lies?

There is no basis for your claims. I can show you fatwas from the most conservative Saudi scholars that say that the victim of rape must not be punished, and that she should not be forced to marry her attacker:


Quote:
This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden in all religions and in the minds of all wise people and those who are possessed of sound human nature. All earthly systems and laws regard this action as abhorrent and impose the strictest penalties on it, except a few states which waive the punishment if the rapist marries his victim! This is indicative of a distorted mind let alone a lack of religious commitment on the part of those who challenge God in making laws. We do not know of any love or compassion that could exist between the aggressor and his victim, especially since the pain of rape cannot be erased with the passage of time – as it is said. Hence many victims of rape have attempted to commit suicide and many of them have succeeded, The failure of these marriages is proven and they are accompanied by nothing but humiliation and suffering for the woman.

Islam has a clear stance which states that this repugnant action is forbidden and imposes a deterrent punishment on the one who commits it...

(the great scholar of Islam) Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said:

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the prescribed punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (i.e., if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess, and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her...
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338



Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:45pm:
See Israeli we has girls serve in army as colleague to us,, they has good weapon skill too.


35 Israeli Soldiers
'Raped 11-yr Old Girl'

http://www.rense.com/general70/35.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/02/israel

61% of Israeli men don't see forced sex with acquaintance as rape
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/study-61-of-men-don-t-see-forced-sex-with-acquaintance-as-rape-1.337637?localLinksEnabled=false

Israel convicts ex-president for rape
http://www.salon.com/2010/12/30/ml_israel_katsav/



Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:45pm:
Tell me where is woman treat this way in Arab land?
No where


Thank God for that.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:32pm
show me where is the arab country that has women serve in same levels as men,,

women is 2. class in islam society but in Israel is treated with respect and serve as our sisters in IDF,,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1yrn51Vel4&feature=fvwrel

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 18th, 2012 at 3:17pm

Quote:
It is the required evidence threshold for imposing the stoning punishment, not the requirement for a rape conviction.


So this standard is identical for both rape and consensual sex?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 6:11pm

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 3:17pm:

Quote:
It is the required evidence threshold for imposing the stoning punishment, not the requirement for a rape conviction.


So this standard is identical for both rape and consensual sex?


Yes Freediver we stone rapists to death, while the West will put him in a holiday camp for a few years where he can watch cable TV and play Playstaion everyday. Did I mention the gourmet food?


Quote:
Barwon Prison foodie delight leaves bitter taste

PERVERTED foodie John Xydias says prisoners can't wait to reoffend to get back inside their "prison resort" at Barwon.

In a series of letters obtained by the Herald Sun and published in part last August, the rapist outlined in detail his gourmet lifestyle and love of prison life.

"I would never have thought prison would be so f----n nice," he wrote to former girlfriend Josie in November 2009

"If only the media knew that crims eat 'prawns, scallops, lobster', prime cuts of steak. The media would have a hard time digesting that.

"I understand why many crims keep on reoffending in order to come back to jail."...

..."I ordered the fetta cheese parmigiana stack - it's three different types of fetta cheese, each piece is deep fried after being crumbed and Napoli sauce is spread between each slice and sliced mushrooms. The fetta cheese crumbed pieces are stacked on top of each other and on top they have put mozzarella melted cheese and parmesan cheese. I can also taste pesto - it's so f----n yummy."

Written during the same period as the stock list provided to the Herald Sun, Xydias gives Barwon's menu a five-star rating: "The menu is tops. All the meals are so gourmet and yummy."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/barwon-prison-foodie-delight-leaves-bitter-taste/story-e6frf7kx-1226013163310


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/prison-food-a-recipe-for-top-nosh/story-e6frf7kx-1226013164617

How do you suppose rape victims feel about that?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 18th, 2012 at 6:21pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:32pm:
show me where is the arab country that has women serve in same levels as men,,

women is 2. class in islam society but in Israel is treated with respect and serve as our sisters in IDF,,,


How can women be free and respected unless they conscripted to fight in an army?

Demonstrates the Israeli mentality: A person's worth is proven by whether or not they can join an oppressive military organisation that persecutes palestinians. If you not invovled in persecuting palestinians, you are a 2nd -class citizen in Israel.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 18th, 2012 at 6:35pm
Falah, is this now correct?

Typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist, 4 witnesses: death by stoning
Married adulterer, 4 witnesses: death by stoning

Unmarried rapist (or fewer than 4 witnesses): whipping and a fine
Unmarried fornicator (or fewer than 4 witnesses): whipping

Husband raping wife: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Husband having 'consensual' sex with wife: wife's duty

Owner raping a slave: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Owner having 'consensual' sex with a slave: likewise, no punishment

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 18th, 2012 at 6:52pm
Can you also clarify what you meant by this:


Quote:
In Islam, it is forbidden to force slaves into sexual service


Is it only forbidden to force your slaves to have sex with other people?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 18th, 2012 at 6:59pm

falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 6:21pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 2:32pm:
show me where is the arab country that has women serve in same levels as men,,

women is 2. class in islam society but in Israel is treated with respect and serve as our sisters in IDF,,,


How can women be free and respected unless they conscripted to fight in an army?

Demonstrates the Israeli mentality: A person's worth is proven by whether or not they can join an oppressive military organisation that persecutes palestinians. If you not invovled in persecuting palestinians, you are a 2nd -class citizen in Israel.


No is example of girls in Israel is treated same and with respect.

Look in Islam, girls not allowed to wear  clothes they wish, not to study, walk behind husband.

It is bad places for woman.

See our girls in IDF service, happy and treat same as men.

Remember I spend my service time at checkpoints so I experience Muslims all day,, I know how they is,, how dangerousness they are too,,

Very unfair to their females,

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:13pm
How do the Jewish men control themselves around these women? Do they not feel compelled to rape them? Islam is a practical religion that realises the only way to protect women from Muslim men is to cover them up and keep them on a tight leash.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:19pm

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:13pm:
How do the Jewish men control themselves around these women? Do they not feel compelled to rape them? Islam is a practical religion that realises the only way to protect women from Muslim men is to cover them up.


We does not have need to cover our sisters up, they treated with respect,,

You know in 1. Week training with weapons to fire at moving targets winner is girl from Russia in our unit!!
Is no problem all is happy and she has big smile and respect from the males too

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:20pm
You felt no shame in being beaten by a girl?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Avram Horowitz on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:25pm

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:20pm:
You felt no shame in being beaten by a girl?


No she is shooter from childhood in Russia before migration to Israel,

It's ok we has pride for her

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:50pm
How do the Muslims handle it when they come across a woman in charge?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:50pm
'The slave who becomes a concubine is considered like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic actually comes from the word for marriage'.


oh well ...that's OK then. :-?

Ummm - like it or not Falah....you and your kind live in the past.!

I can't bring to mind ANYTHING to do with slavery in my culture.... except  IT IS BANNED.

I know the loathsome practice continues in this best of all worlds,  >:( >:( :o but for you to respond to FD's q's in such a way is a wake-up.  I actually believe there are people of faith who see more clearly, the teachings of their creed. You are not one of them...  :P

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:30am

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:50pm:
'The slave who becomes a concubine is considered like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic actually comes from the word for marriage'.


oh well ...that's OK then. :-?

Ummm - like it or not Falah....you and your kind live in the past.!

I can't bring to mind ANYTHING to do with slavery in my culture.... except  IT IS BANNED.

I know the loathsome practice continues in this best of all worlds,  >:( >:( :o but for you to respond to FD's q's in such a way is a wake-up.  I actually believe there are people of faith who see more clearly, the teachings of their creed. You are not one of them...  :P


Banned but not abolished. There are twice as many slaves in the West today as there in the Midle East.

The BBC tells us that there are 660,000 slaves in the West, only 360,000 in Middleast and north Africa.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:14am

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:50pm:
How do the Muslims handle it when they come across a woman in charge?

Throughout Islamic history there have been many female scholars of Islam. Many scholars of Islam have opined centuries ago that women can be imams if there are no men qualified for the job.

Try to find historical examples of this attitude towards woman in Christiaity and Judaism, and you will not find them.

Muslim countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Indonesia have had female leaders long before Australia.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:48pm

Quote:
Banned but not abolished. There are twice as many slaves in the West today as there in the Midle East.


The west is a big place Falah. This means slavery is less common in the west. Also, you seem to forget that the only reason slavery is illegal in the middle east is because of foreign interference.

It is kind of hypocritical to claim some kind of moral high ground for Islam because there are fewer slaves in the middle east, when this happened despite Islam and against Islam, not because of it. Meanwhile, if anyone criticises anything else about the middle east that is actually a result of Islam, you and Abu try to pretend that it is because of foreign interference instead.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 19th, 2012 at 1:42pm

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:14am:
Muslim countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Indonesia have had female leaders long before Australia.


Indonesia is not a muslim country it is a democracy.

Were these female leaders the daughters of previous leaders?

Did that woman from Pakistan get killed by muslims?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 19th, 2012 at 1:45pm

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:30am:

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:50pm:
'The slave who becomes a concubine is considered like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic actually comes from the word for marriage'.


oh well ...that's OK then. :-?

Ummm - like it or not Falah....you and your kind live in the past.!

I can't bring to mind ANYTHING to do with slavery in my culture.... except  IT IS BANNED.

I know the loathsome practice continues in this best of all worlds,  >:( >:( :o but for you to respond to FD's q's in such a way is a wake-up.  I actually believe there are people of faith who see more clearly, the teachings of their creed. You are not one of them...  :P


Banned but not abolished. There are twice as many slaves in the West today as there in the Midle East.

The BBC tells us that there are 660,000 slaves in the West, only 360,000 in Middleast and north Africa.


Slavery is illegal in the west it violates human rights.

Yet in the Islamic world there is support for sex slaves-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEy69_qVarI

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:36pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 1:42pm:

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:14am:
Muslim countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Indonesia have had female leaders long before Australia.


Indonesia is not a muslim country it is a democracy.


Even if it is not ruled by islamic law, about 86% of the 237million people in Indonesia are Muslim. That means that tens of millions of Muslims voted for a woman.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:02pm

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 1:42pm:

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:14am:
Muslim countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Indonesia have had female leaders long before Australia.


Indonesia is not a muslim country it is a democracy.


Even if it is not ruled by islamic law, about 86% of the 237million people in Indonesia are Muslim. That means that tens of millions of Muslims voted for a woman.


It is amazing what shameless hypocrits Muslims can be. If Indonesia does something we might like, Muslims say look at Indonesia, it proves how progressive Islam is - even though it was achieved througha democratic process that Islam rejects outright.

Yet if you point to something evil done in Indonesia that closely mirrors Islamic law, Muslims complain that it cannot possibly reflect on Islam because it is not a proper Islamic Caliphate.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:45pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:02pm:

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 1:42pm:

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:14am:
Muslim countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Indonesia have had female leaders long before Australia.


Indonesia is not a muslim country it is a democracy.


Even if it is not ruled by islamic law, about 86% of the 237million people in Indonesia are Muslim. That means that tens of millions of Muslims voted for a woman.


It is amazing what shameless hypocrits Muslims can be. If Indonesia does something we might like, Muslims say look at Indonesia, it proves how progressive Islam is - even though it was achieved througha democratic process that Islam rejects outright.

Yet if you point to something evil done in Indonesia that closely mirrors Islamic law, Muslims complain that it cannot possibly reflect on Islam because it is not a proper Islamic Caliphate.


It is strange, that chip on your shoulder Freediver. You would be right at home in Israel with all the Islam-haters there.



you said:
freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:50pm:
How do the Muslims handle it when they come across a woman in charge?


Three of the largest countries in the world with overwhelming Muslim majorities have elected women as leaders.

If your question was about Islam or the Islamic state then the answer might have been different.

Don't blame the answer on your poor question.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Frances on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:54pm


falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:45pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:50pm:
How do the Muslims handle it when they come across a woman in charge?


Three of the largest countries in the world with overwhelming Muslim majorities have elected women as leaders.

If your question was about Islam or the Islamic state then the answer might have been different.

Don't blame the answer on your poor question.



Maybe it is your reading of the question that is poor rather than the question itself.  Freediver's question asked about the attitudes Muslims have to a woman in charge.  This I would take to be a reference to Muslims as individuals and how they relate to women.  You responded with references to Islam and Islamic states, hardly the same thing, if I am reading Freediver's question correctly, which I believe I am.  Or is this another case of you changing the subject because you don't want to answer the question?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:59pm
Speaking of changing the subject, do we have to go through another ten pages before we get another little detail?


Quote:
Falah, is this now correct?

Typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist, 4 witnesses: death by stoning
Married adulterer, 4 witnesses: death by stoning

Unmarried rapist (or fewer than 4 witnesses): whipping and a fine
Unmarried fornicator (or fewer than 4 witnesses): whipping

Husband raping wife: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Husband having 'consensual' sex with wife: wife's duty

Owner raping a slave: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Owner having 'consensual' sex with a slave: likewise, no punishment

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:24pm
Ahh FD - fair question.

I am sorry to say... the answer is/... YES.! :-?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by jalane on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:48pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 1:45pm:

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:30am:

Emma wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:50pm:
'The slave who becomes a concubine is considered like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic actually comes from the word for marriage'.


oh well ...that's OK then. :-?

Ummm - like it or not Falah....you and your kind live in the past.!

I can't bring to mind ANYTHING to do with slavery in my culture.... except  IT IS BANNED.

I know the loathsome practice continues in this best of all worlds,  >:( >:( :o but for you to respond to FD's q's in such a way is a wake-up.  I actually believe there are people of faith who see more clearly, the teachings of their creed. You are not one of them...  :P


Banned but not abolished. There are twice as many slaves in the West today as there in the Midle East.
The BBC tells us that there are 660,000 slaves in the West, only 360,000 in Middleast and north Africa.


Slavery is illegal in the west it violates human rights.

Yet in the Islamic world there is support for sex slaves-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEy69_qVarI


Banned but not abolished. There are twice as many slaves in the West today as there in the Midle East.

Now I personally have no knowledge of the subject, other than what I have gleaned from immersion in society.  I DO KNOW the enslavement of women continues, ...on ALL continents.
And...not only women, but children -male and female. AS WE ALL KNOW!!!.

NIMBY - 'member that one --  ?
We are an ethically compromised culture,  ... which is reflected in so many things we see everyday... so familiar that we don't  'recognise' it anymore. We have been de-sensitised, and de-humanised... 
...not ALL individuals, .....  but I'd say most groupings of people., without a strong ethical grounding,  have been drawn in  to the schisms erupting in our society.. Mateship based on merit has disappeared, inevitably. Replaced by ???

We are so COMPLACENT!!!!!!!!!!
Typical aussies. She'll be right mate.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Take e.g  -  lateral example.

A couple/few people camping on the banks of a far NQ River, have their camp obliterated by salt-water crocs,. native and endemic to the region/-  at least one dead, and one un-accounted for,-- the surviving not-so happy campers ,  express their shock and fear.!!









 






Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 20th, 2012 at 9:10pm

falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:41am:

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:45pm:

falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:01pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:36pm:
And yet - nobody is migrating to Muslim countries to enjoy the benefits of Islam. Not even you. Funny that.

Plenty of muslims, on the other hand, can't wait to get the hell outa Muslim countries into the terrible West.

Shurely shome mishtake, no?




Can you tell me which country ruled by Islamic law I could migrate to? Obviously you can't because there are none.


What does that tell you about Islam?? Why is there no Islamic country if Islam is so goddam super?



So when was the last time that a country was ruled according to Biblical law? More than 2000 years? What does that tell you about Judaism and Chrsitianity?


Well, about Christianity it says that it set out from the very beginning to separate state and church. It was a struggle at times but it was the guiding priinciple from the first. To a Muslim, it is inconceivable but there it is. Sanity is inconceivable to fanatics.
Looking at Israel, it also tells me that the Jews took on that principle and built a country on it. You can be an atheist Israeli Jew and they will not stone you to death. You must be reeling, incomprehendingly.
.





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Mar 20th, 2012 at 9:14pm

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:45pm:
It is strange, that chip on your shoulder Freediver. You would be right at home in Israel with all the Islam-haters there.


Uh-oh. You said islam-hater. You are a rotten egg.
That's the rules, galah. Anyone who says Islamophobia/islamophobe is a rotten egg.

You are it, I'm afraid.

We all love Islam, it's Muslims we hate... no ... wait... it's the other way around... no... wait... it's our enemies we hate and friends we love.


(Phew. I almost fluffed it but I think I got away with it.  :P)


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 10:26am
A group of Muslim men who abducted and raped two teenage girls as part of their Eid celebrations laughed in court yesterday as they were jailed for a total of 38 years.

The girls, aged 15 and 16, were lured miles from their home to a dingy hostel.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132985/Muslim-gang-jailed-kidnapping-raping-girls-Eid-celebrations.html#ixzz1siy2QJlj


Raping as thanksgiving to Allah.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 10:35am
After raping the girls, they ‘in effect offered them up to their friends, introducing a string of young men into the house’.

Over the following 36 hours, the girls were subjected to almost constant abuse, despite begging their attackers to stop.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132985/Muslim-gang-jailed-kidnapping-raping-girls-Eid-celebrations.html#ixzz1sj0blhZI



Insh'allah, rightly guided and all that sh!t.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:08pm
Christmas rape alert

Police in Wigan are involved in a campaign to target rape and sexual abuse during the Christmas period.

Greater Manchester Police is launching a Rape Awareness Week to reduce incidents of rape and sexual abuse while increasing the reporting of incidents.

The are concerned about people who drink large quantities of alcohol on a night out in the run up to Christmas and leave themselves vulnerable to crimes such as rape.

Between April 1 and October 31, 526 rapes and attempted rapes were reported in Greater Manchester.

Alcohol featured in two thirds of the cases and the figure is expected to increase during the Christmas period.

http://www.wigantoday.net/news/local-news/christmas-rape-alert-1-193599#


Brooklyn man convicted of 2008 Christmas rape

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/brooklyn_man_convicted_of_christmas_RTXt5pk2FzLXl3cg7d42TL



Quote:
Austin Powers Actor Gets Life in Prison in Horrific Christmas Rape-Torture Case

Joseph Hyungmin Son, the actor who played Dr. Evil's Oddjob-inspired henchman in the first Austin Powers movie, was sentenced to life in prison for his role in a 1990 Christmas Eve gang rape and torture of a woman.

Orange County Superior Court Judge Francisco Briseno meted out the life term after hearing from the woman he was convicted of torturing on Dec. 24, 1990, as she was out walking her dog.

She gave a victim impact statement to the court that asked for the harshest punishment possible, saying the crime not only left her with post-traumatic stress but forever destroyed the spirit of Christmas.

"My twenties were stripped from my life as I relearned how to walk, see, hear and cope with the outside world again," testified the woman who wished to remain anonymous. "Joseph Son not only cost me my job at my salon but also my college savings...not to mention the impact it's made on celebrating Christmas year after year."

Son and another man, Santiago Gaitan, ambushed the woman in Huntington Beach, Calif., after she left a friend's place where she was looking at Christmas lights. They raped her repeatedly at gunpoint, sodomized her and forced her to give them oral sex.

http://au.eonline.com/news/austin_powers_actor_gets_life_in_prison/262931

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:22pm
Christmas gang rape: three charged

Three men will face court today after a West Australian teenager was allegedly gang raped on Christmas Day by three men, with one of the men believed to have filmed the attack.

Police said the incident happened in the early hours of Christmas morning after a 22-year-old Nollamara man knocked on the window of the 18-year-old woman's home and woke her.

It will be alleged that the man, who is known to the woman, tricked her into going with him to a nearby park.

Police claim she was then forced into a car by the man and another two men, who were waiting nearby.

The woman was then driven to a unit in Munja Way, Nollamara, where she was taken into the house and allegedly sexually assaulted.

Police believe one of the men filmed the attack.

The woman was driven back home after the incident and later reported the matter to police.

A 48-year-old Beechboro man has been charged with aggravated sexual penetration, deprivation of liberty and aggravated indecent assault, while a 22-year-old Beechboro man and a 22-year-old Nollamara man have both been charged with aggravated sexual penetration and deprivation of liberty.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/christmas-gang-rape-three-charged/2009/01/09/1231004255914.html

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:28pm

Quote:
Hawera police are appealing for help from the public after the brutal pack rape of a 22-year-old woman early on Christmas morning.

Detective Constable Guy Jackson said the woman was traumatised after the attack, which occurred in a carpark near St Joseph's Church in the South Taranaki town.

It is understood the young woman was walking home alone just after midnight after attending the Rough Habits Sports Bar and Cafe's annual Christmas Eve street party when she was forcibly taken down an alleyway and attacked by a group of men. Jackson would not say how many attackers were involved or describe how the assault occurred. The woman was later treated by a doctor.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/776794



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:31pm
Woman alleges rape at Man Utd Christmas party

A 19-year-old man was arrested last night on suspicion of rape after a woman claimed she was sexually assaulted at a hotel in which Manchester United Football Club were holding their Christmas party.

The woman was examined at St Mary's Hospital, Manchester, before being interviewed by officers. A police spokeswoman said: "A 19-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of rape after presenting himself to police. He remains in custody for questioning."

Manchester United officials said the club would be making no comment.

The alleged incident came at the end of a marathon Christmas party, organised by the Manchester United club captain, Gary Neville, which started at lunchtime on Monday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-alleges-rape-at-man-utd-christmas-party-765888.html

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 12:33pm
Party rape calls soar

AUSTRALIAN women have been warned about workplace predators at office Christmas parties after a big rise in after-hours complaints to rape counsellors over the past two weeks.

A Victorian Centre Against Sexual Assault spokeswoman said the surge in calls followed a similar pattern as in NSW, where the NSW Rape Crisis Centre said office party rape victims were ringing the hotline at a rate of three every 48 hours — an average of about 10.5 each week, which is nearly triple the number of complaints at the same time last year.

The spokeswoman said the centre had yet to compile Victorian statistics.

But Karen Willis from the NSW Rape Crisis Centre said: "We often talk lightheartedly about people making fools of themselves at the office Christmas party but there is a sinister side to the behaviour of some bosses and co-workers during this period."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/party-rape-calls-soar/2007/12/15/1197568332318.html

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Frances on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 1:06pm
It's beginning to look as if falah has some sort of rape fetish.  I wonder how many hours a day he spends looking for stories like this....

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by falah on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 4:55pm
But Soren and others don't?

Funny how you say nothing when the Zionist Islam-haters post articles about rape.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:10pm
Falah you respond by googling rape whenever I ask you a question about Islamic law. Do you want to discuss Islam here, or do you only want to play a game of who can google the fastest? I am sure Soren et al would also be happy to discuss Islam with you if you could bring yourself to be honest about it and stop trying to change the subject.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:15pm
Only Mohammedans rape as an expression of Islamic religious bonding.

The only new thing Islam has brought is its elaborate justification of its founder's acute tumescence. Mohammed has called on God to justify his inability to keep his d!ck in his pants - and Lo! Allah answered! Everything else is copied from  earlier religions.

And now every randy Mohammedan fvcker feels himself justified when he stones the object of his lust to death.

Arab Spring, eh?







Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Frances on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:39pm

falah wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 4:55pm:
But Soren and others don't?

Funny how you say nothing when the Zionist Islam-haters post articles about rape.


The bulk of this sort of stuff is posted by you, usually when you are either unwilling or unable to respond to a question.  It never has any relevance to the subject of the thread either.  It is as if you do not have the mental capacity to sustain an argument.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:43pm

Frances wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:39pm:

falah wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 4:55pm:
But Soren and others don't?

Funny how you say nothing when the Zionist Islam-haters post articles about rape.


The bulk of this sort of stuff is posted by you, usually when you are either unwilling or unable to respond to a question.  It never has any relevance to the subject of the thread either.  It is as if you do not have the mental capacity to sustain an argument.

I think the people he is arguing with are way more guilty of that

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 8:01pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:43pm:

Frances wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:39pm:

falah wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 4:55pm:
But Soren and others don't?

Funny how you say nothing when the Zionist Islam-haters post articles about rape.


The bulk of this sort of stuff is posted by you, usually when you are either unwilling or unable to respond to a question.  It never has any relevance to the subject of the thread either.  It is as if you do not have the mental capacity to sustain an argument.

I think the people he is arguing with are way more guilty of that

Cretin.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 8:05pm

Soren wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 8:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:43pm:

Frances wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:39pm:

falah wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 4:55pm:
But Soren and others don't?

Funny how you say nothing when the Zionist Islam-haters post articles about rape.


The bulk of this sort of stuff is posted by you, usually when you are either unwilling or unable to respond to a question.  It never has any relevance to the subject of the thread either.  It is as if you do not have the mental capacity to sustain an argument.

I think the people he is arguing with are way more guilty of that

Cretin.
Chink

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Soren on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 8:22pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 8:05pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 8:01pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:43pm:

Frances wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 7:39pm:

falah wrote on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 4:55pm:
But Soren and others don't?

Funny how you say nothing when the Zionist Islam-haters post articles about rape.


The bulk of this sort of stuff is posted by you, usually when you are either unwilling or unable to respond to a question.  It never has any relevance to the subject of the thread either.  It is as if you do not have the mental capacity to sustain an argument.

I think the people he is arguing with are way more guilty of that

Cretin.
Chink



You stupid bloody cretin.

Chink??

Ooohh... very angry, aren't you??


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:10pm

True Colours wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 12:57pm:
That is incorrect.

A single man convicted of fornication in Islam - which has never occurred except with self-confession - has the stipulated punishment of being lashed.

If the same man were to commit rape, then depending on the circumstances, there would be many more punishments available for the judge to hand out including, amputation of limbs, crucifixion, execution, imprisonment, and or banishment. On top of this, the offender can be ordered to pay compensation to the victim.


Do you think Falah was wrong?


falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for fornication/adultery, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.



True Colours wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 12:57pm:
Depending on the circumstances, a rapist may be punished in a number of ways such as execution,


You mean if he is married, he gets executed? Which is different from a married man committing (consensual) adultery, for which the punishment is death by stoning?


True Colours wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 12:57pm:
That is complete load of bs. In the history of Islam, no court has ever convicted a man or woman of adultery except on the basis of self-confession. So how on Earth is it some kind way out when it has never even happened?

Do you ever feel ashamed of your lies Freediver? Do you feel that it helps to promote your Zionist agenda by telling lies? The more you lie, the worse the Zionists look.


You are confused TC. I was abviously talking about rape, not adultery.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 5:28pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 3:48pm:
So where is the verse in the Quran that says rape is haram, please cite it for us.


Islamic law comes from two sources - the quran and the hadith.

In the case of rape, the quran gives the generalised proscription for the respect and equality of women. The specific outlawing of rape is found in the hadith of Abu Dawud Book 38, Number 4366:


Quote:
    Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

    When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.

    She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

    She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).

    When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

    He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

    He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.


Gandalf, do all the specific ways in which Islam makes women inferior to men over-rule the generalisation that they are equal?

Can you explain how your example differentiates rape and consensual sex? Why is the word rape never actually used? In the first case the word used is "overpowered", and in the next two cases it refers to having intercourse with her. There is nothing at all in the hadith to indicate that the woman's consent to the sex is relevant.

Is this why you insisted I find the specific verse in the Koran that says rape is legal - because the Koran never uses the word rape?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 2:57am

freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:10pm:
Can you explain how your example differentiates rape and consensual sex? Why is the word rape never actually used? In the first case the word used is "overpowered", and in the next two cases it refers to having intercourse with her.


I don't know if the arabic word for "rape" is actually used in the original - do you?

But what possible point would you be making from that? It is perfectly clear from the passage what is happening, and that such an act is forbidden, and that the woman should not be blamed.


freediver wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:10pm:
There is nothing at all in the hadith to indicate that the woman's consent to the sex is relevant.


Again, you'll have to explain the point (if any) you are trying to make. How on earth can you say the woman's consent is not relevant, when we both know that under islamic law the woman is to be punished for consensual adultery? This hadith is clearly making a distinction between adultery that is forced (rape) and adultery that is consensual. One punishes the woman, the other does not.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 12:42pm

Quote:
I don't know if the arabic word for "rape" is actually used in the original - do you?


LOL, Another translation error? If the arabic word for rape was used in the original, I would expect them to translate it as rape. Especially seeing as they saw the need clarify that a rape occurred.


Quote:
But what possible point would you be making from that?


That Islamic law equates consensual sex and rape.


Quote:
Again, you'll have to explain the point (if any) you are trying to make. How on earth can you say the woman's consent is not relevant, when we both know that under islamic law the woman is to be punished for consensual adultery?


The woman's consent is relevant to whether she had consensual sex. It makes no difference to how the man is punished. In other words, Islamic law equates rape and consensual sex. The point has nothing to do with whether the woman is punished. The point is that the man gets the same punishment regardless of whether the woman consented.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 4:15pm

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 12:42pm:
The point is that the man gets the same punishment regardless of whether the woman consented


So? No one is pretending that adultery is not a serious crime in islam. We are talking about rape though, and I'm simply disproving you clowns claiming that rape is not forbidden in islam. You seem to have a problem with rape being considered a comparable crime to adultery. Thats fine, but you are not making any sort of case that islam doesn't consider rape a serious crime.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 7:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 4:15pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 12:42pm:
The point is that the man gets the same punishment regardless of whether the woman consented


So? No one is pretending that adultery is not a serious crime in islam. We are talking about rape though, and I'm simply disproving you clowns claiming that rape is not forbidden in islam. You seem to have a problem with rape being considered a comparable crime to adultery. Thats fine, but you are not making any sort of case that islam doesn't consider rape a serious crime.


There is not a single known case, in all of Islam's history, of someone being convicted of raping a woman he was permitted to have sex with (ie a slave or wife). There is not one verse in the Koran or hadith specifically forbidding rape in this context. There is not one verse in the Koran that even distinguishes rape and consensual sex in this context. There are plenty of verses that imply it is only natural for a Muslim man to chop of a non-Muslim man's head then have sex with his wife shortly after. Again, none of these verses even mention consent. All the other principles support the view that rape is indeed legal in these contexts - eg sex is a man's right and a woman's duty.

The one verse you have given as evidence of rape being forbidden in other contexts does not even use the word rape to describe the crime that was committed or the crime that was punished. The man was stoned to death for having sexual intercourse. The fact that the woman was raped appears to be inconsequential.

Other than not punishing the victim, there is nothing at all in Islamic law that recognises the consent of the woman involved as having any relevance at all.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 9:50pm

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 7:32pm:
There is not a single known case, in all of Islam's history, of someone being convicted of raping a woman he was permitted to have sex with (ie a slave or wife).


God, what a stupid thing to say.


Quote:
A Malaysian man who forced his wife to have sex with him has been sentenced to the maximum five years in jail, in what appears to be the country’s first successful prosecution under a new law against marital rape.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/archive/malaysian-man-convicted-of-marital-rape-under-new-law/


Quote:
The Supreme Court of Appeals has accepted for the first time a verdict by a local court sentencing a person with the initials H.A. to prison for raping his wife more than once, a newspaper reported

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=a-legal-first-in-turkey-in-marital-rape-2008-04-22

Marital rape is a criminal offense in at least 3 muslim countries - Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:01pm

Quote:
Marital rape is a criminal offense in at least 3 muslim countries - Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey.


Shifting the goal posts yet again eh Gandalf? Do all of these countries practice Shariah law? Does Turkey's ban on headscarves prove that Islam forbids headscarves? Do you have any examples from the Koran or hadith? or did it take 1400 years for Muslims to finally get a conviction?


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 5:28pm:
Islamic law comes from two sources - the quran and the hadith.


You left out the third source - internet articles about Malaysia.

Gandalf posted this in the other thread. Apparently it proves that Islam forbids rape, not that Muslims think spousal rape is automatically legal because you are married.


polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:39pm:
Also, while I previously said the quran says nothing specific on rape, I have since found verse 4:19:


Quote:
O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good.


'inherit' = marriage = lawful sex.


:o

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:20pm

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:01pm:
Shifting the goal posts yet again eh Gandalf? Do all of these countries practice Shariah law? Does Turkey's ban on headscarves prove that Islam forbids headscarves? Do you have any examples from the Koran or hadith? or did it take 1400 years for Muslims to finally get a conviction?


You said "in all of islam's history". 98% of Turkey's population is muslim, Turkey is part of "islam". An anecdote from a Turkish court conviction in 2008 is part of "islam's history". Just like Turkey's headscarf ban is part of "islam's history". Get it?

Ditto for Malaysia and Indonesia. Muslims living in muslim societies = "islam's history". Or do you reserve the right to pick and choose what bits and pieces are allowed to be part of "islam's history"?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:28pm
Fine. I will rephrase if you want to get all pedantic about it and completely miss the point (again).

There is not a single known case, in all of Islam's history, of someone being convicted under Islamic law of raping a woman he was permitted to have sex with (ie a slave or wife).

There is not one verse in the Koran or hadith specifically forbidding rape in this context. There is not one verse in the Koran that even distinguishes rape and consensual sex in this context. There are plenty of verses that imply it is only natural for a Muslim man to chop of a non-Muslim man's head then have sex with his wife shortly after. Again, none of these verses even mention consent. All the other principles support the view that rape is indeed legal in these contexts - eg sex is a man's right and a woman's duty.

The one verse you have given as evidence of rape being forbidden in other contexts does not even use the word rape to describe the crime that was committed or the crime that was punished. The man was stoned to death for having sexual intercourse. The fact that the woman was raped appears to be inconsequential.

Other than not punishing the victim, there is nothing at all in Islamic law that recognises the consent of the woman involved as having any relevance at all.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 11:25pm

freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:28pm:
There is not a single known case, in all of Islam's history, of someone being convicted under Islamic law of raping a woman he was permitted to have sex with


The Malaysian state that passed the conviction incorporates sharia law into their penal code. You want to keep digging yourself in further?

But it just shows the idiocy and extreme selectivity you lot show in criticising "islam" (you can't even properly define it) in practice. Its a case of "Islam has never in its history done this", to "oh wait... actually I meant Islam that practices 'shariah law' has never done this" - completely oblivious to the absurdity of attempting to narrowly define such a nebulous thing as "shariah law". And you have the hide to accuse me of shifting the goal posts!

But of course you are right - I mean we can all remember the howls of protests as millions of every day muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey rioted and ran amok to oppose the criminalisation of marital rape in those countries, citing islamic doctrine's permissibility of the practice... oh wait...  :D


freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:28pm:
There is not one verse in the Koran or hadith specifically forbidding rape in this context.


No, instead there is a hadith specifically forbidding rape in *ALL* contexts. Logical no?


freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:28pm:
The one verse you have given as evidence of rape being forbidden in other contexts does not even use the word rap


Yes, because the description of a woman being attacked and forced to have sex, and her testimony that she was "assaulted" isn't quite clear enough is it? Obviously it must mean it has nothing whatsoever to do with rape, and everything to do with sex outside marriage. After all, the hadith talks non-stop about the man being punished for sex outside marriage right? Oh wait...


freediver wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:28pm:
Other than not punishing the victim, there is nothing at all in Islamic law that recognises the consent of the woman involved as having any relevance at all.


Yup - once again you are spot on FD. Clearly, a woman standing up in front of the prophet and saying "this guy forced me to have sex with him and assaulted me", and the prophet responding with "stone this guy" - so obviously means "stone this guy for having sex outside marriage" - cause like I said, the hadith just never stops rabbiting on about adultery... err wait...

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:56am

Quote:
The Malaysian state that passed the conviction incorporates sharia law into their penal code. You want to keep digging yourself in further?


If I incorporate shariah law into a bacon and egg sandwich, does that make it halal?


Quote:
But it just shows the idiocy and extreme selectivity you lot show in criticising "islam" (you can't even properly define it) in practice.


Can't define it? How about the Koran and hadiths? If you are using Malaysia as an example then you are the only one confused.


Quote:
But of course you are right - I mean we can all remember the howls of protests as millions of every day muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey rioted and ran amok to oppose the criminalisation of marital rape in those countries, citing islamic doctrine's permissibility of the practice... oh wait...


Earth to Gandalf - Turkey rejected Islamic law and is openly hostile to it. They even banned the hijab. Using them as an example of shariah law is like using a bacon and egg sandwich as an example of halal food.


Quote:
No, instead there is a hadith specifically forbidding rape in *ALL* contexts. Logical no?


But it does not actually do that, does it? It does not even mention rape. It says nothing at all about the breadth of context. There is nothing at all in it that contradicts the orthodox view that spousal rape is not a punishable offence in Islam.


Quote:
Yes, because the description of a woman being attacked and forced to have sex, and her testimony that she was "assaulted" isn't quite clear enough is it?


I am not saying she was not raped. I am saying the guy was stoned to death for having intercourse - just as he would have been if the woman had consented.


Quote:
Obviously it must mean it has nothing whatsoever to do with rape, and everything to do with sex outside marriage. After all, the hadith talks non-stop about the man being punished for sex outside marriage right? Oh wait...


The hadith does not mention rape. In the context of punishment, it uses the word intercourse.


Quote:
Yup - once again you are spot on FD. Clearly, a woman standing up in front of the prophet and saying "this guy forced me to have sex with him and assaulted me", and the prophet responding with "stone this guy" - so obviously means "stone this guy for having sex outside marriage" - cause like I said, the hadith just never stops rabbiting on about adultery... err wait...


Earth to Gandalf, that is not what I am saying. Remember, this is your example, not mine. I am merely pointing out that it clearly does not say what you claim it does. Your attempt to disprove that it establishes the opposite case is pure strawman.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:30pm

freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:56am:
Can't define it? How about the Koran and hadiths?


"Islam" is an all encompassing term, it is not specific enough to refer only to the koran and hadith. You were not referring to islamic doctrine when you made your stupid marital rape case claim - you said "in all islam's history" - even clarifying it to "in all islam's history where shariah law is used" - which definitely isn't referring to a collecction of texts - it is islam in practice - ie muslims living in muslim society. Malaysia is a muslim society, therefore Malaysia is part of islam.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:56am:
Earth to Gandalf - Turkey rejected Islamic law and is openly hostile to it.


Is that why Turkey elected an islamist government? Don't confuse "Turkey" with those wealthy hipster students living it up in that Ankara park. What happened to that protest? It petered out because they do not represent Turkish society. Turkey is overwhelmingly supportive of islamic law, and are growing increasingly alienated with the militant secularism imposed on them.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:56am:
They even banned the hijab.


Which has been overturned. Do keep up FD.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:56am:
Using them as an example of shariah law is like using a bacon and egg sandwich as an example of halal food.

 
Using them as an example of muslims living in a muslim society is like...err.. using them as an example of muslims living in a muslim society. Like I said in another thread, if Turks had rejected islam and become an atheist society, you might have a point, but they have not.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:56am:
I am saying the guy was stoned to death for having intercourse


Right. You just don't have any evidence that was the case. And in spite the fact that the entire hadith is all about describing a woman who was assaulted, and the punishment that is specific to that context, not a hadith about punishing simply for having sex outside marriage.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:56am:
Earth to Gandalf, that is not what I am saying.


You didn't say he was sentenced for having sex ouside marriage? Funny, cause I'm pretty sure you just said it again a few lines above.  :D

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:45pm

Quote:
"Islam" is an all encompassing term, it is not specific enough to refer only to the koran and hadith. You were not referring to islamic doctrine when you made your stupid marital rape case claim - you said "in all islam's history"


Here you go Gandalf:

There is not a single known case, in all of Islam's history, of someone being convicted under Islamic law of raping a woman he was permitted to have sex with (ie a slave or wife).

Do you agree with it now?

How about the rest:

There is not one verse in the Koran or hadith specifically forbidding rape in this context. There is not one verse in the Koran that even distinguishes rape and consensual sex in this context. There are plenty of verses that imply it is only natural for a Muslim man to chop of a non-Muslim man's head then have sex with his wife shortly after. Again, none of these verses even mention consent. All the other principles support the view that rape is indeed legal in these contexts - eg sex is a man's right and a woman's duty.

The one verse you have given as evidence of rape being forbidden in other contexts does not even use the word rape to describe the crime that was committed or the crime that was punished. The man was stoned to death for having sexual intercourse. The fact that the woman was raped appears to be inconsequential.

Other than not punishing the victim, there is nothing at all in Islamic law that recognises the consent of the woman involved as having any relevance at all.

All good?


Quote:
Right. You just don't have any evidence that was the case.


Yes I do. It is what the verse says. What other evidence could there be?


Quote:
And in spite the fact that the entire hadith is all about describing a woman who was assaulted, and the punishment that is specific to that context


But you were just insisting that it applies in all contexts. You can't have it both ways Gandalf. You cannot argue it is a general rule to be applied in all cases of rape - including the context where Islam specifically permits sex and where orthodox doctrine says rape is not a punishable offence - then when it is convenient argue the exact opposite, that it is specific to the context given.

At least, not if you want people to take you seriously as arguing honestly and in good faith.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 24th, 2013 at 5:01pm

freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
There is not a single known case, in all of Islam's history, of someone being convicted under Islamic law of raping a woman he was permitted to have sex with (ie a slave or wife).


OK, next task for you FD - define "islamic law". Maybe if we keep deconstructing this for another 10 pages you might finally understand what a ridiculous and meaningless idea this is. But I'd doubt it.

Its just such a dumb thing to say - that in the entire 1400 years of its existence, not a single islamic court has ever passed sentence on a man for assaulting his wife in the form of forced sex. And no, I'm not going to go attempting to dig up something that was likely never even documented. Its possible that it has never happened, but its extremely unlikely.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
There is not one verse in the Koran that even distinguishes rape and consensual sex in this context.


:P no, there's just a hadith that forbids rape in all contexts.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
The one verse you have given as evidence of rape being forbidden in other contexts does not even use the word rape


If you really believe that a description of a man being sentenced for assaulting, overpowering and forcing a woman to have sex with him does not apply to rape because such a description leaves out the word "rape", then good for you. Its not logical or rational though.

Imagine a law in a hypothetical non-muslim society that stated something along the lines of "if a woman is taken by force by a man and assaulted, and forced to have sex with him - he shall be given x sentence". Presumably in FD world, a person being convicted on such a charge can legitimately argue "oh but your honour! - I cannot be convicted of rape, because the wording of that law doesn't mention the word rape!". "Very well, douchebag, you are hereby convicted of assaulting a woman and forcing her to have sex with you". "Thank You your honour, thats better".

How does that work for you FD? Is it ok for a person to be convicted of overpowering and forcing her to have sex with him against her will - as long as the word "rape" isn't mentioned in the charge?


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
there is nothing at all in Islamic law that recognises the consent of the woman involved as having any relevance at all.


Apart from the whole assault and taking her by force thing.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
Yes I do. It is what the verse says. What other evidence could there be?


The verse does not say that the man was being punished for having sex outside marriage, you're just making that up. It does however say "He said to the man who had attacked her, 'Condemn him'". Think about it FD - a sentence was passed on the man who attacked her. Thats a funny way of saying "you are being punished for having unlawful sex" There is not even any mention of the man's relationship to the woman - he could have been her husband ffs - or his slave. It doesn't say because *ALL* scenarios of rape - err sorry "forced sex" are applicable.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
But you were just insisting that it applies in all contexts. You can't have it both ways Gandalf.


Reading comprehension again FD. The context of rape - all rape. *NOT* the context of sex outside marriage.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 24th, 2013 at 6:34pm

Quote:
If you really believe that a description of a man being sentenced for assaulting, overpowering and forcing a woman to have sex with him does not apply to rape because such a description leaves out the word "rape"


That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that it only applies to rape in the context of sex that is forbidden in Islam.


Quote:
Imagine a law in a hypothetical non-muslim society that stated something along the lines of "if a woman is taken by force by a man and assaulted, and forced to have sex with him - he shall be given x sentence".


Can you tell the difference between a precedent and a statute? What you are describing is a statute. The example you gave is a precedent. A precedent always comes with context.


Quote:
Presumably in FD world, a person being convicted on such a charge can legitimately argue "oh but your honour! - I cannot be convicted of rape, because the wording of that law doesn't mention the word rape!". "Very well, douchebag, you are hereby convicted of assaulting a woman and forcing her to have sex with you". "Thank You your honour, thats better".


How about "you are hereby convicted of having sexual itnercourse?" I know it is absurd, but it is Islamic law that is absurd, not my interpretation of it.


Quote:
Apart from the whole assault and taking her by force thing.


Wrong Gandalf. Not even that recognises the consent of the woman involved as having any relevance.


Quote:
The verse does not say that the man was being punished for having sex outside marriage, you're just making that up.


You are just making up the bit about him being punished for the rape rather than the sex. Let's take another look at what the hadith actually says:

He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

Just to be clear, I am not saying this hadith resolves the issue one way or the other. You are. You are reading into it something that is not actually there. It is your evidence, not mine.


Quote:
Thats a funny way of saying "you are being punished for having unlawful sex"


Here it is again for you Gandalf:

He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

Do you agree that the punishment handed out could be identical to the appropriate Islamic punishment for consensual sex in the same context?


Quote:
There is not even any mention of the man's relationship to the woman - he could have been her husband ffs - or his slave.


Do you really think that is likely? Here it is again for you Gandalf:

When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.

Does that really sound like a husband attacking his wife? Who in their right mind would interpret it that way?


Quote:
It doesn't say because *ALL* scenarios of rape - err sorry "forced sex" are applicable.


Sounds like circular reasoning to me Gandalf. Rape is forbidden in all contexts, therefor you can interpret this hadith as banning rape in all contexts, therefor rape is banned in all contexts, based on this one piece of evidence.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 24th, 2013 at 6:59pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 5:01pm:
If you really believe that a description of a man being sentenced for assaulting, overpowering and forcing a woman to have sex with him does not apply to rape because such a description leaves out the word "rape", then good for you. Its not logical or rational though.

How does that work for you? Is it ok for a person to be convicted of overpowering and forcing her to have sex with him against her will - as long as the word "rape" isn't mentioned in the charge?


The man was convicted because he confessed to zina, there is no way he could be convicted on the word of 1 woman, if he denied it how could it be proven?
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/52/22
Why is the word of a woman equal to half that of a man,is this the type of rights Islam gave women?

I prefer to live in a society where the woman does not need 4 male witnesses for a conviction if the attacker denies the charges,i prefer more modern laws that reflect reality.
www.islamqa.com/en/88051




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:22pm

freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 6:34pm:
Can you tell the difference between a precedent and a statute? What you are describing is a statute. The example you gave is a precedent. A precedent always comes with context.


Perhaps I haven't explained this clearly enough: in islam, precedents are statutes (in so far as islamic doctrine can be considered a legal document). The precedent set by the prophet in his rulngs are considered statutary in islamic law. I suspect this might be where the confusion is coming from - normally in a legal system you have a set of statutes that are supposed to cover everything. Precedent (how a previous court has ruled on a given statute) is used for guiding a court on how to rule on that statute the next time it happens. In islam, what you might term 'statutary' law - namely whats stated in the quran - is not exhaustive, and "precedent" - which is rulings by the prophet on issues not specifically dealt with in the quran - is used to fill in the gaps. They are therefore themselves statutary.

This is why I talk about this ruling in 'statutary' talk, and thats why it makes perfect sense to me that it is (deliberately) non-specific about the type of rape involved - so as to say that ALL rape is forbidden.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:54pm
Gandalf, by insisting that a precedent must be interpretted as broadly as possible, you are turning the principle of halal being default on it's head. It would be no different to insisting that beef is haram because the prophet forbade pig. It relies on you completely ignoring the line that Islam consistently draws between sex with wives and slaves and sex with other women. You have no valid reason to insist the hadith also applies to raping your wife or sex slave, just as you have no valid reason for insisting that a ban on bacon should be applied to beef. It is nothing short of delusional to insist that the guy who was punished might have been the husband or owner of the victim, therefor the precedent must be interpretted in all possible contexts, no matter how little sense it makes.

There is nothing in your explanation of how precedents work in Islamic law that differentiates them from modern concepts of a precedent.

Also, you are still relying on circular reasoning, by insisting that this hadith must apply to rape in all contexts because Islam forbids rape in all contexts, but also using the hadith as the evidence that Islam forbids rape in all contexts.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 24th, 2013 at 8:51pm

freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:54pm:
you are turning the principle of halal being default on it's head. It would be no different to insisting that beef is haram because the prophet forbade pig.


Try again FD. It is specifically stated that you can eat anything except pork (and some other stuff):


Quote:
do not find in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden for an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine


Presumably this is comparable because the hadith, or some other command from islamic text says "take any woman by force except in the case of it being 'unlawful' sex" right? :P

got any more brilliant analogies?


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:54pm:
There is nothing in your explanation of how precedents work in Islamic law that differentiates them from modern concepts of a precedent.


Precedent in common law refers to a past ruling that was based on something (ie a statute). The "precedent" of the prophet's rulings is often a completely new rule that is not based on anything already defined. Or in other words, precedent itself can be statutary.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 7:54pm:
Also, you are still relying on circular reasoning, by insisting that this hadith must apply to rape in all contexts because Islam forbids rape in all contexts


Where did you get that from? I've only ever argued that the ruling that rape is forbidden in all contexts originates from this hadith. That is not circular reasoning.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 24th, 2013 at 9:35pm

Quote:
Try again FD. It is specifically stated that you can eat anything except pork (and some other stuff):


So the fact that it is specifically permitted differentiates it from that principle you mentioned of halal being default?


Quote:
Precedent in common law refers to a past ruling that was based on something (ie a statute).


Wrong. it can be the interpretation of a statute. It can also be something completely new for which there is no relevant statute. Modern common law is no different in principle to what you described about hadiths.


Quote:
The "precedent" of the prophet's rulings is often a completely new rule that is not based on anything already defined. Or in other words, precedent itself can be statutary.


You are still missing the point. The nature of a precedent is that it applies to the context given. The example you gave is not a general prohibition on rape in all contexts. It is not a guide for punishment on rape in all contexts, which is why the orthodox Islamic view is that spousal rape is not a punishable offence. Muhammed did not say that rape should always be punished with death by stoning. That would be a statute.


Quote:
Where did you get that from? I've only ever argued that the ruling that rape is forbidden in all contexts originates from this hadith. That is not circular reasoning.


I have pointed it out to you in every single post since you made the claim.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 25th, 2013 at 11:09am

freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 9:35pm:
So the fact that it is specifically permitted differentiates it from that principle you mentioned of halal being default?


No.


freediver wrote on Aug 24th, 2013 at 9:35pm:
The nature of a precedent is that it applies to the context given. The example you gave is not a general prohibition on rape in all contexts.


You are describing common law precedent, not islamic law precedent - which as I already explained is not comparable. You were wrong to label it as "precedent" (as in common law terminology) in the first place. In fact islamic law can use the equivalent  of common law precedent, but that is very different to the precedent of the prophet - which is identical to statutary law.

What this means is that often the precedent or "example" ('sunna') of the prophet is applied broadly, even if the original example was more specific. This applies to the rape case, and certainly islamic jurists are in no doubt that rape - all rape is a crime in its own right, and not merely a sub-category of adultery:


Quote:
It is incorrect to say that rape is merely a subcategory of adultery or fornication. In the well-known Islamic legal book, "Fiqh-us-Sunnah," rape is included in a definition of hiraba (terrorism or crimes of violence): "A single person or group of people causing public disruption, killing, forcibly taking property or money, attacking or raping women, killing cattle, or disrupting agriculture."

http://islam.about.com/od/crime/f/rape.htm

Thus rape is listed under the category 'crimes of violence'. That didn't come out of thin air - that came from the ruling against the violent rape of a woman in the previously quoted hadith.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 25th, 2013 at 7:03pm

Quote:
You are describing common law precedent, not islamic law precedent - which as I already explained is not comparable.


You attempted to explain that it was not comparable, but the description you gave could apply equally well to modern common law. It is not a legal principle so much as common sense. I have attempted to explain this to you with the bacon sandwich example, but as usual you completely missed the point. You appear to be inventing a principle that any precedent set by Muhammed must be interpretted as broadly as possible, without regard for common sense or counter-examples. This is not the same thing as saying that Muhammed's precedents cannot be altered.


Quote:
You were wrong to label it as "precedent" (as in common law terminology) in the first place. In fact islamic law can use the equivalent  of common law precedent, but that is very different to the precedent of the prophet - which is identical to statutary law.


It cannot be identical to statutory law. It is simply not possible, because of the fundamental limitations inherent in the nature of a precedent.


Quote:
What this means is that often the precedent or "example" ('sunna') of the prophet is applied broadly, even if the original example was more specific.


So, not always? That is, only in the absence of anything else to go by?


Quote:
This applies to the rape case, and certainly islamic jurists are in no doubt that rape - all rape is a crime in its own right, and not merely a sub-category of adultery:


Yet the example you gave is clearly not a case of spousal rape or the rape of slaves. All that it is saying is that it is not a subcategory of adultery. The explanation does not claim that it should have a different punishment to adultery or should apply to cases where consensual sex is permitted.   


Quote:
Thus rape is listed under the category 'crimes of violence'. That didn't come out of thin air - that came from the ruling against the violent rape of a woman in the previously quoted hadith.


You seem to have forgotten what we are discussing Gandalf. Either that or you are resorting to some kind of circular reasoning again.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 25th, 2013 at 11:05pm

freediver wrote on Aug 25th, 2013 at 7:03pm:
You attempted to explain that it was not comparable, but the description you gave could apply equally well to modern common law.


So what? As I keep trying to say, modern common law is not comparable, so stop trying to link islamic law to common law.


freediver wrote on Aug 25th, 2013 at 7:03pm:
I have attempted to explain this to you with the bacon sandwich example, but as usual you completely missed the point.


Yes apparently I missed your point on that - something about arguing that the quranic verse that bans bacon can somehow mean beef is also banned - even though the very same verse specifically says it is allowed. You'll have to explain that again to me FD.  :P


freediver wrote on Aug 25th, 2013 at 7:03pm:
You appear to be inventing a principle that any precedent set by Muhammed must be interpretted as broadly as possible


No, I thought I explained, but apparently not clearly enough. Islamic law comes from two sources - the quran and example of the prophet (sunnah). You first turn to the quran, and you can also look at any sunnah that reinforces the quranic ruling. However if a particular issue is not covered in the quran, you then turn to the sunnah. So basically, the hadeeth are in two categories 1. that reinforce a quranic ruling, and 2. that are statutary in their own right.


freediver wrote on Aug 25th, 2013 at 7:03pm:
It cannot be identical to statutory law. It is simply not possible, because of the fundamental limitations inherent in the nature of a precedent.


Again you fail to understand the unique nature of islamic law in using Muhammad's example as statutary law. Put simply, law derived from hadeeth can absolutely be generalised from its specific context to apply universally. And this has happened - in the writing of islamic fiqh by scholars - where (for example), rape is categorised under the crime of violent crime/terrorism. If your argument was right, then rape would necessarily be a sub-category of zinna (fornication/adultery) - right? Again, it is incorrect and misleading to call it "precedent".


freediver wrote on Aug 25th, 2013 at 7:03pm:
Yet the example you gave is clearly not a case of spousal rape or the rape of slaves.


It is not clear at all. What characterises the account most is its lack of any specificity. It literally could have been anyone - even his slave or his wife. Thus my point that it is deliberately non-specific so that it can be applied universally.


freediver wrote on Aug 25th, 2013 at 7:03pm:
You seem to have forgotten what we are discussing Gandalf. Either that or you are resorting to some kind of circular reasoning again.


No. Unless pointing out to you that the official islamic books of fiqh describe rape in the exact way you are attempting to claim it is not - is somehow forgetting what we are discussing. 

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 26th, 2013 at 8:47pm

Quote:
So what? As I keep trying to say, modern common law is not comparable, so stop trying to link islamic law to common law.


Can you explain how it is different without making them appear identical? So far every attempt you have made to explain the difference has shown them to be the same.


Quote:
Again you fail to understand the unique nature of islamic law in using Muhammad's example as statutary law. Put simply, law derived from hadeeth can absolutely be generalised from its specific context to apply universally.


Doesn't this contradict the principle of not making illegal that which God has permitted, and of halal being the default? Common sense dictates that you still have to draw the line somewhere - hence my example of the bacon sandwich.


Quote:
If your argument was right, then rape would necessarily be a sub-category of zinna (fornication/adultery) - right?


No. I don't really care how you categorise it.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:32am

freediver wrote on Aug 26th, 2013 at 8:47pm:
No. I don't really care how you categorise it.


Yeah you do. Thats the whole point of this discussion.  :P

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 27th, 2013 at 8:32am
Was spousal rape, the rape of slaves and the rape of women captured in battle common on the Arabian peninsula prior to Muhammed's conquest?

Can you elaborate on the two apparently contradictory principles that halal is default and you should not forbid what God has permitted, and that law derived from hadeeth can absolutely be generalised from its specific context to apply universally?

Also, would you mind quoting some verses that actually use the Arabic term for rape in the original? The one you used earlier as evidence does not appear to.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 27th, 2013 at 1:36pm

freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 8:32am:
Was spousal rape, the rape of slaves and the rape of women captured in battle common on the Arabian peninsula prior to Muhammed's conquest?


Probably. Why?


freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 8:32am:
Can you elaborate on the two apparently contradictory principles that halal is default and you should not forbid what God has permitted, and that law derived from hadeeth can absolutely be generalised from its specific context to apply universally?


There is no contradiction- apparent or otherwise. A similar situation would be you claiming that alcohol is permitted at (say) weddings - because while alcohol is stated as forbidden in a general sense, it doesn't actually say its forbidden at weddings. Would you accept the argument that alcohol is acceptable at weddings, at a business meeting, in the evening - or literally any other specific scenario you can think of simply because each specific scenario is not spelled out in islamic text? This is the point I can't seem to get through to you: the (deliberate) lack of specificity regarding the rape hadith means that it could equally apply to a woman's husband or slave owner as any other scenario. It is the act of taking a woman by force that is being condemned, everything about the hadith (the account of a non-descript woman being taken by force by a non-descript man) indicates that it is a universal outlawing of rape.

And as I said, it is not me who has "leaped to the conclusion" that this applies to rape - it is the orthodox islamic jurists who have concluded that rape falls under the category of unlawful violence (hirabah):


Quote:
The inclusion of rape within the purview of hirabah has had support throughout Islamic history.

The medieval Zahiri jurist Ibn Hazm defined hirabah as,

    ‘One who puts people in fear on the road, whether or not with a weapon, at night or day, in urban areas or in open spaces, in the palace of a caliph or a mosque, with or without accomplices, in the desert or in the village, in a large or small city, with one or more people… making people fear that they’ll be killed, or have money taken, or be raped (hatk al ‘arad)… whether the attackers are one or many.'[3]

It had significant support from the Maliki jurists.

    Al-Dasuqi, for example, a Maliki jurist, held that if a person forced a woman to have sex, his actions would be deemed committing hiraba. In addition, the Maliki judge Ibn 'Arabi, relates a story in which a group was attacked and a woman in their party raped. Responding to the argument that the crime did not constitute hiraba because no money was taken and no weapons used, Ibn 'Arabi replied indignantly that "hirabah with the private parts" is much worse than hiraba involving the taking of money, and that anyone would rather be subjected to the latter than the former.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirabah#Rape


freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 8:32am:
Also, would you mind quoting some verses that actually use the Arabic term for rape in the original? The one you used earlier as evidence does not appear to.


You're just being ridiculous. Again, explain to me how a description of a man grabbing a woman and forcing her to have sex with him is not an adequate description of rape?

Anyway, here you go:


Quote:
Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab that Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan gave a judgment that the rapist had to pay the raped woman her bride-price. Yahya said that he heard Malik say, "What is done in our community about the man who rapes a woman, virgin or non-virgin, if she is free, is that he must pay the bride-price of the like of her. If she is a slave, he must pay what he has diminished of her worth. The hadd-punishment in such cases is applied to the rapist, and there is no punishment applied to the raped woman. If the rapist is a slave, that is against his master unless he wishes to surrender him."  (Book #36, Hadith #36.16.14)

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 28th, 2013 at 9:20am

Quote:
Probably. Why?


I am trying to figure out how Muhammed could have outlawed the practices without ever specifically referring to them, especially given that Muslims came away thinking it was their right to have sex with them, and the woman's duty. It's not as if the issue would have never arisen, given the rampant rape and pillage towards the end of Muhammed's career.


Quote:
A similar situation would be you claiming that alcohol is permitted at (say) weddings - because while alcohol is stated as forbidden in a general sense, it doesn't actually say its forbidden at weddings.


No, that is not similar, because it is never stated that rape is forbidden in a general sense. Islam does not even seem to consider it rape when sex is permitted. The one verse you claim is a general prohibition on rape does not even use the term rape. A similar scenario would be a man being punished for turning up to the mosque drunk, and you insisting that this is a universal ban on alcohol, despite Muhammed insisting that it is a man's right to drink alcohol and a woman's duty to serve it to him.


Quote:
everything about the hadith (the account of a non-descript woman being taken by force by a non-descript man) indicates that it is a universal outlawing of rape.


It is a universal outlawing of rape in contexts where Islam acknowledges rape.


Quote:
And as I said, it is not me who has "leaped to the conclusion" that this applies to rape - it is the orthodox islamic jurists who have concluded that rape falls under the category of unlawful violence (hirabah)


Very sneaky of you Gandalf. Do those orthodox jurists consider the rape of your own wives or slaves to be a crime?


Quote:
Responding to the argument that the crime did not constitute hiraba because no money was taken and no weapons used, Ibn 'Arabi replied indignantly that "hirabah with the private parts" is much worse than hiraba involving the taking of money, and that anyone would rather be subjected to the latter than the former.


That's great - Muslims consider rape to be theft. Can you explain how this works with a slave you already own and have a right to have sex with?


Quote:
Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab that Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan gave a judgment that the rapist had to pay the raped woman her bride-price. Yahya said that he heard Malik say, "What is done in our community about the man who rapes a woman, virgin or non-virgin, if she is free, is that he must pay the bride-price of the like of her. If she is a slave, he must pay what he has diminished of her worth. The hadd-punishment in such cases is applied to the rapist, and there is no punishment applied to the raped woman. If the rapist is a slave, that is against his master unless he wishes to surrender him."  (Book #36, Hadith #36.16.14)


So the punishment for rape is a fine, and depends on what the woman is worth? Again, how does this contradict my position?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 28th, 2013 at 6:20pm

freediver wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 9:20am:
Very sneaky of you Gandalf.


Of course, thats just me all over right?  ::)

...Anyway, rather than me going through and giving you the same responses all over again, why don't you respond to the last question of my last post? That seems to be the crux of the matter here.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 28th, 2013 at 6:49pm
Earth to Gandalf - I have never claimed that the verse was not describing a rape. I have pointed this out to you many times. Not sure why you keep asking me to prove it. It is not the crux of anything.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 28th, 2013 at 7:07pm
How can a rapist be convicted when the woman needs 4 male muslim witnesses if he does not confess to the crime?

The word of a female cannot convict a man for rape.

Quote:
The prophet said , Isnt the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man? The woman said,yes.He said, this is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/52/22


Mohammad said a woman's mind is deficient therefore their word is equal to half that of a man.

Muslims like to claim Islam gave women rights.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 28th, 2013 at 8:15pm

freediver wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
Earth to Gandalf - I have never claimed that the verse was not describing a rape. I have pointed this out to you many times. Not sure why you keep asking me to prove it. It is not the crux of anything.


It is if you are making the case that this verse is somehow inadequate for a ruling against rape - based on the logic that it doesn't mention the word rape - which you are.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 28th, 2013 at 8:39pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 7:07pm:
The word of a female cannot convict a man for rape.


rubbish. Show me the quote where it says this.

The only instance where a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's is in the case of witnessing financial transactions and contracts.

Also its complete baloney that 4 witnesses are needed for a rape conviction. The quranic verse refers to when men accuse women of adultery.

Little known fact: No proof is required in islam when a woman claims rape. They are taken at their word. However convicting an accused man of rape is another matter - but does *NOT* require 4 witnesses. But the 4 witness issue only pertains to the issue of men accusing women of adultery/fornication. It is obviously a ridiculous requirement to make - and deliberately made to be so - that is, to make it nigh impossible for a man to prove an accusation made against a woman for committing adultery/fornication. If a man makes such an accusation against a woman, and is unable to produce the witnesses, then he is liable to the charge of falsely accusing someone - a serious crime in its own right.The whole intention of this is to severely dissuade men from making malicious attacks against a woman's honour.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by moses on Aug 29th, 2013 at 4:13pm
gandalf wrote:

Quote:
Little known fact: No proof is required in islam when a woman claims rape. They are taken at their word. However convicting an accused man of rape is another matter - but does *NOT* require 4 witnesses. But the 4 witness issue only pertains to the issue of men accusing women of adultery/fornication. It is obviously a ridiculous requirement to make - and deliberately made to be so - that is, to make it nigh impossible for a man to prove an accusation made against a woman for committing adultery/fornication. If a man makes such an accusation against a woman, and is unable to produce the witnesses, then he is liable to the charge of falsely accusing someone - a serious crime in its own right.The whole intention of this is to severely dissuade men from making malicious attacks against a woman's honour.



Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”

There we have it, the qur'an tells us that a man can bring a charge against his wife without witnesses, he simply swears he is telling the truth, then his testimony is accepted as four testimonies. (not hard at all  for the man)




Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 29th, 2013 at 5:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 8:15pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
Earth to Gandalf - I have never claimed that the verse was not describing a rape. I have pointed this out to you many times. Not sure why you keep asking me to prove it. It is not the crux of anything.


It is if you are making the case that this verse is somehow inadequate for a ruling against rape - based on the logic that it doesn't mention the word rape - which you are.


I am not arguing that it is inadequate to rule against rape. I am saying it only applies where Islam recognises rape and where Islam recognises the need for a woman to consent to sex for the sex to be legal. Hence the questions I asked above that you insist are less important than this little strawman of yours.

This is not rocket science Gandalf. I shouldn't be explaining this to you over and over again.


moses wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 4:13pm:
gandalf wrote:

Quote:
Little known fact: No proof is required in islam when a woman claims rape. They are taken at their word. However convicting an accused man of rape is another matter - but does *NOT* require 4 witnesses. But the 4 witness issue only pertains to the issue of men accusing women of adultery/fornication. It is obviously a ridiculous requirement to make - and deliberately made to be so - that is, to make it nigh impossible for a man to prove an accusation made against a woman for committing adultery/fornication. If a man makes such an accusation against a woman, and is unable to produce the witnesses, then he is liable to the charge of falsely accusing someone - a serious crime in its own right.The whole intention of this is to severely dissuade men from making malicious attacks against a woman's honour.



Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”

There we have it, the qur'an tells us that a man can bring a charge against his wife without witnesses, he simply swears he is telling the truth, then his testimony is accepted as four testimonies. (not hard at all  for the man)


Is this true Gandalf? If so it is yet another example on a very long list where I have taken the word of many Muslims on an issue only to find out later that it is a complete fabrication.

It is things like this that make it hard for me to take Muslims seriously when they insist I should cut them more slack because they are debating honestly and in good faith.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 29th, 2013 at 7:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 8:39pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 7:07pm:
The word of a female cannot convict a man for rape.


rubbish. Show me the quote where it says this.

The only instance where a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's is in the case of witnessing financial transactions and contracts.

Also its complete baloney that 4 witnesses are needed for a rape conviction. The quranic verse refers to when men accuse women of adultery.

Little known fact: No proof is required in islam when a woman claims rape. They are taken at their word. However convicting an accused man of rape is another matter - but does *NOT* require 4 witnesses. But the 4 witness issue only pertains to the issue of men accusing women of adultery/fornication. It is obviously a ridiculous requirement to make - and deliberately made to be so - that is, to make it nigh impossible for a man to prove an accusation made against a woman for committing adultery/fornication. If a man makes such an accusation against a woman, and is unable to produce the witnesses, then he is liable to the charge of falsely accusing someone - a serious crime in its own right.The whole intention of this is to severely dissuade men from making malicious attacks against a woman's honour.


Bukhari/52/22 i quoted it in previous post.

Are you saying rape is not Zina (unlawful intercourse), would that be a pathetic effort to redefine rape as something other than unlawful intercourse?

The Quran says Islam has been perfected in 5/3, there is no verse outlawing rape in the Quran yet we have verses where Muhammad gets 20% of all war booty.

There are numerous cases around the world in Islamic countries of women being convicted for zina because they could not produce 4 male witnesses to prove rape, do you expect people to believe your lies?

Amnesty International on Pakistan which is 99% muslim-

Quote:
A woman is raped every 2 hours and one is gang raped every 8 hours in Pakistan ,according to the country's independent human rights commission.In reality the figure may be far higher as many rapes go unreported.

Under the hudood ordinances introduced by General Zia 27 years ago, rape victims had to have 4 male witnesses to the crime.Id they didnt they faced prosecution for adultery- a crime that carries the death penalty by stoning.
www.amnesty.org.au/svaw/comments/2257/

Here is the law which says 4 male witnesses are required for rape convictions, i wonder why Pakistan has an extremely low conviction rate for rape
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance



There have been numerous cases of women being jailed in the UAE for unlawful sex after reporting being raped,the Aussie lady Alicia Gali is one here is another-

Quote:
In the UAE , as in some other countries using Islamic law, a  rape conviction can require either a confession or the testimoney of 4 male witnesses.
www.news.yahoo.com/woman-jailed-dubai-reporting-rape-hopes-warn-others-194626273.html


If we google rape law saudi arabia we get more cases of women being punished for being raped if they cannot find 4 witnesses.

If we google rape law yemen the results will tell the story.

If we google rape law iran you will discover the ruling Islamic regime orders prison guards to rape virgins who are to be executed,does that mean the ruling Islamic regime orders the rape of women, the further you dig the more depraved it gets with Islam.

We could read what the Grand Mufti of Australia said about rape he should understand the Islamic ways.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly





Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 30th, 2013 at 8:06pm

moses wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 4:13pm:
Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”

There we have it, the qur'an tells us that a man can bring a charge against his wife without witnesses, he simply swears he is telling the truth, then his testimony is accepted as four testimonies. (not hard at all  for the man)


Why don't you quote 24:8 moses - which says the wife can do exactly the same thing (ie swear 4 times) as testimony that he is lying?

24:8 and 24:9 applying to women mirrors exactly 24:6 and 24:7 for men. Yet further proof that the quran is even handed with the treatment of men and women.


freediver wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 5:51pm:
Is this true Gandalf? If so it is yet another example on a very long list where I have taken the word of many Muslims on an issue only to find out later that it is a complete fabrication.


See above comment. Do you feel just a bit silly opting to blindly join the conga line - rather than do the most rudimentary investigation for yourself - which would have quickly revealed this claim as the outrageous lie that it is?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 30th, 2013 at 8:34pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 7:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 8:39pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 7:07pm:
The word of a female cannot convict a man for rape.


rubbish. Show me the quote where it says this.

The only instance where a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's is in the case of witnessing financial transactions and contracts.

Also its complete baloney that 4 witnesses are needed for a rape conviction. The quranic verse refers to when men accuse women of adultery.

Little known fact: No proof is required in islam when a woman claims rape. They are taken at their word. However convicting an accused man of rape is another matter - but does *NOT* require 4 witnesses. But the 4 witness issue only pertains to the issue of men accusing women of adultery/fornication. It is obviously a ridiculous requirement to make - and deliberately made to be so - that is, to make it nigh impossible for a man to prove an accusation made against a woman for committing adultery/fornication. If a man makes such an accusation against a woman, and is unable to produce the witnesses, then he is liable to the charge of falsely accusing someone - a serious crime in its own right.The whole intention of this is to severely dissuade men from making malicious attacks against a woman's honour.


Bukhari/52/22 i quoted it in previous post.

Are you saying rape is not Zina (unlawful intercourse), would that be a pathetic effort to redefine rape as something other than unlawful intercourse?

The Quran says Islam has been perfected in 5/3, there is no verse outlawing rape in the Quran yet we have verses where Muhammad gets 20% of all war booty.

There are numerous cases around the world in Islamic countries of women being convicted for zina because they could not produce 4 male witnesses to prove rape, do you expect people to believe your lies?

Amnesty International on Pakistan which is 99% muslim-

Quote:
A woman is raped every 2 hours and one is gang raped every 8 hours in Pakistan ,according to the country's independent human rights commission.In reality the figure may be far higher as many rapes go unreported.

Under the hudood ordinances introduced by General Zia 27 years ago, rape victims had to have 4 male witnesses to the crime.Id they didnt they faced prosecution for adultery- a crime that carries the death penalty by stoning.
www.amnesty.org.au/svaw/comments/2257/

Here is the law which says 4 male witnesses are required for rape convictions, i wonder why Pakistan has an extremely low conviction rate for rape
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance



There have been numerous cases of women being jailed in the UAE for unlawful sex after reporting being raped,the Aussie lady Alicia Gali is one here is another-
[quote]In the UAE , as in some other countries using Islamic law, a  rape conviction can require either a confession or the testimoney of 4 male witnesses.
www.news.yahoo.com/woman-jailed-dubai-reporting-rape-hopes-warn-others-194626273.html


If we google rape law saudi arabia we get more cases of women being punished for being raped if they cannot find 4 witnesses.

If we google rape law yemen the results will tell the story.

If we google rape law iran you will discover the ruling Islamic regime orders prison guards to rape virgins who are to be executed,does that mean the ruling Islamic regime orders the rape of women, the further you dig the more depraved it gets with Islam.

We could read what the Grand Mufti of Australia said about rape he should understand the Islamic ways.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly
[/quote]

Sorry Baron, but where in all that waffle did you substantiate your 2 claims that 1. islamic law requires 4 male witnesses for a rape conviction and 2. a female witness cannot be used to convict a man for rape?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 30th, 2013 at 9:18pm
Thanks Gandalf.

Can you also explain the verse you posted above that appears to state that the punishment for rape is a fine?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 30th, 2013 at 9:39pm
It doesn't. It says the rapist receives the Hud punishment (death).

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 30th, 2013 at 10:23pm
The wikipedia article on hudud lists illegal sexual intercourse but not rape (specifically). How do you figure out the bride-price of a rape victim, or how much the value of a slave has been diminished by her being raped? Also, for the case where the rapist is a slave, why does the verse qualify it with unless the master wishes to surrender the slave?

Can you point to the verse that states that rape is forbidden in a general sense? Can you explain how interpreting in the broadest possible way an example where a rapist is given the same punishment as for consensual sex is the same as interpreting a general prohibition on alcohol as a general prohibition on alcohol? Wouldn't a closer scenario be a man being punished for turning up to the mosque drunk, and you insisting that this is a universal ban on alcohol, despite Muhammed insisting that it is a man's right to drink alcohol and a woman's duty to serve it to him?

Can you explain how Muhammed managed to outlaw rape in the situations where Islam considers sex to be a man's right and a woman's responsibility, without ever referring to it specifically? It's not as if the issue would have never arisen, given the rampant rape and pillage towards the end of Muhammed's career, all the Islamic laws that appear to condone and facilitate rape, and the culture of the time.

Can you give an example where Muhammed used the term rape in the situation where sex is permitted? You attempted to back up your position earlier by pointing out that orthodox islamic jurists have concluded that rape falls under the category of unlawful violence. Did any of those jurors ever use the term rape in the situation where sex is permitted? You seem to have placed a great deal of emphasis on the categorisation of rape as violence, but for some reason it is impossible to get you to even acknowledge the question of whether Islam categorises sex without the woman's consent as rape in situations where sex is permitted.

Also, how do you deal with the issue of consent in the context of slavery and a duty to have sex?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 30th, 2013 at 11:28pm

freediver wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 10:23pm:
Also, for the case where the rapist is a slave, why does the verse qualify it with unless the master wishes to surrender the slave?


Are you once again having difficulty comprehending English FD?

It says if a (male) slave commits rape, then the (hudd) punishment shall be meted out to the slave's master. Unless the master surrenders him (to the authorities) - then the punishment shall be on the slave. Its a subtle way of saying to the slave owner hand over your slaves if they commit this crime - or else you face the punishment for the crime. Sound fair?


freediver wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 10:23pm:
Can you explain how interpreting in the broadest possible way an example where a rapist is given the same punishment as for consensual sex is the same as interpreting a general prohibition on alcohol as a general prohibition on alcohol? Wouldn't a closer scenario be a man being punished for turning up to the mosque drunk, and you insisting that this is a universal ban on alcohol, despite Muhammed insisting that it is a man's right to drink alcohol and a woman's duty to serve it to him?


No that would assume that the quran says that rape is a man's right, and a woman's duty - which it obviously doesn't.  Nowhere does islam say that rape is permitted - let alone a "right". The only thing islam says about rape is that it is forbidden. This is pretty basic stuff FD.

As for sex being an exclusively "man's right" thing, islam (both quran and sunna) says that fulfilling sexual needs is a duty of *BOTH* husband and wife. I have already demonstrated this.


freediver wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 10:23pm:
but for some reason it is impossible to get you to even acknowledge the question of whether Islam categorises sex without the woman's consent as rape in situations where sex is permitted.


This 'you sneeky muslim dodging my questions" schtick is getting rather tedious FD. Especially when you say it while completely oblivious to the fact that it has been central to my entire freakin' argument - in which it just becomes facepalm territory. I mean what the fek do you think I mean when I say "the (deliberate) lack of specificity regarding the rape hadith means that it could equally apply to a woman's husband or slave owner as any other scenario."? Can you see now that when I argue about the ban applying to sex with a "woman's husband" or "slave owner" - I am referring to "situations where sex is permitted"? Hello FD?? Anyone home???

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 31st, 2013 at 8:17am

Quote:
Its a subtle way of saying to the slave owner hand over your slaves if they commit this crime - or else you face the punishment for the crime. Sound fair?


Sure. It still seems odd that it even needs to be said.


Quote:
No that would assume that the quran says that rape is a man's right, and a woman's duty - which it obviously doesn't.


Can you point to the bit where Islam distinguishes rape and consensual sex in this context?

And you are still missing the point about the contradictory principles you apply to interpretting the Koran. When it suits you you insist that halal is the default. When this doesn't suit you apply the opposite principle - that precedents should be interpretted in the broadest possible manner. You appear to have invented the latter principle. The two principles are contradictory, especially when you start throwing in phrases like "deliberate lack of specificity".


Quote:
This 'you sneeky muslim dodging my questions" schtick is getting rather tedious FD.


Trying to get you to address this point is getting tedious also.


Quote:
I mean what the fek do you think I mean when I say "the (deliberate) lack of specificity regarding the rape hadith means that it could equally apply to a woman's husband or slave owner as any other scenario."? Can you see now that when I argue about the ban applying to sex with a "woman's husband" or "slave owner" - I am referring to "situations where sex is permitted"? Hello FD?? Anyone home???


I realise you have been saying this. And I have been responding with two points that you keep dodging:

1) You appear to have invented this principle of interpretation, and in contradicts other principles. Instead of actually addressing this point you delve into hair splitting the examples I use to explain it to you, and coming up with your own examples that are nothing at all like the principle you have invented. Interpretting a general ban on alcohol as a general ban on alcohol is not the same thing as interpreting a precedent in the broadest possible way.

2) If it really did apply to situations where sex is permitted, you would have no trouble citing an example where the word rape has been used in that context. You would have no trouble citing examples where punishment was meted out in that context. You would have no trouble citing examples of all the effort Muhammed had to go to in order to change the culture of the time. You would have no trouble citing examples of Muhammed explaining the concept of consent. You would have no trouble citing examples of Muhammed explaining how the concept of consent can be applied in the context of slavery and duty. All these points you completely ignore, and it is getting very tedious attempting to get you to address them. I have lost count of how many times I have typed this out, only for you to ignore it.

It is especially galling when you cite orthodox Islamic jurors to back up your position when you know that they reject it.

Basically, your argument fails the common sense test. You are insisting that Muhammed imposed a major cultural change without any record being kept of it, except for a "deliberate" lack of specificity in an example of someone being punished for rape in the alternate context.

Your argument now appears to rest on ignoring the entire context in order to create ambiguity in the meaning, then interpreting that ambiguity however you feel like to fill the hole left by you ignoring everything else. For added measure , you throw in a bit of circular reasoning, arguing that it must be interpreted as broadly as possible because and Islam forbids rape in general, and by interpreting it as broadly as possible you prove that Islam forbids rape in general.

I am also having trouble understanding why you say the lack of specificity is deliberate. It seems bleeding obvious from the context that the rapist did not own the woman he raped, and only a desperate desire for self delusion could lead someone to read anything else into it.

How do you figure out the bride-price of a rape victim, or how much the value of a slave has been diminished by her being raped?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 31st, 2013 at 10:32am

freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 8:17am:
And you are still missing the point about the contradictory principles you apply to interpretting the Koran. When it suits you you insist that halal is the default. When this doesn't suit you apply the opposite principle - that precedents should be interpretted in the broadest possible manner.


Right. Get back to me when you can understand the principle of islamic law - and how the example of the prophet is identical to statutory law - as already explained.

There is no contradiction here - the only thing islam says about rape is that it is forbidden. As already explained.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 8:17am:
And I have been responding with two points that you keep dodging:


Ah yes, sneaky me again. Let me try and be as straight as I can:


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 8:17am:
You appear to have invented this principle of interpretation, and in contradicts other principles.


I invented nothing - the principle of the prophet's example as the highest authority on islamic law (where it hasn't been dealt with by the quran) - is a fundamental one in islam. The interpretation that this hadith makes rape unlawful is not mine - it is written in islamic fiqh - whereby rape is identified under the category of violent crime, not a sub-category of 'zina'.

Secondly, it contradicts no other principles. Again, where does it say that islam permits rape? It doesn't - yet you keep bringing it up. Why? Can I now start whinging that you are dodging to the points I keep raising?


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 8:17am:
If it really did apply to situations where sex is permitted, you would have no trouble citing an example where the word rape has been used in that context.


I have cited a hadith that cites it for all contexts. Getting through yet? We gonna keep dancing this stupid gig? Cause I'm getting tired. Your argument is no more valid than if you said the opposite - that the hadith only applies to where sex is permitted - because there is no mention of it referring to a context that is outside marriage. Or any context for that matter. I don't think I can spell this out any clearer.

Finally, to date much of your argument has hinged on the idea that this one hadith flies in the face of a recurring theme in islamic law that states that sex is a man's right, and a woman's duty. Clearly insinuating that rape is implicit in islamic law. Yet, even this idea falls flat on its face, as I have demonstrated to you the quran as well as the hadeeth on numerous occassions stress that marriage is about consensual and mutual love, and that the woman has a right (sexual and emotional) over the man - just as much as the man has a right over the woman.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:15am

Quote:
Right. Get back to me when you can understand the principle of islamic law - and how the example of the prophet is identical to statutory law - as already explained.


A precedent is not the same as a statute just because you declare it to be so. It is the nature of the statement that is different.


Quote:
I invented nothing - the principle of the prophet's example as the highest authority on islamic law (where it hasn't been dealt with by the quran) - is a fundamental one in islam.


That is not the same as an example being a statute. It is still an example, and still comes with all the baggage of interpretation.


Quote:
I have cited a hadith that cites it for all contexts. Getting through yet?


Again you dodge the issue. How can you expect people to believe that you nare arguing honestly and ing good faith. This is what I actually said Gandalf:


Quote:
If it really did apply to situations where sex is permitted, you would have no trouble citing an example where the word rape has been used in that context.


I was not asking you for an example that you imagine could apply to all contexts. I was asking for an example where it was actually used in a specific context.


Quote:
We gonna keep dancing this stupid gig? Cause I'm getting tired. Your argument is no more valid than if you said the opposite - that the hadith only applies to where sex is permitted - because there is no mention of it referring to a context that is outside marriage. Or any context for that matter. I don't think I can spell this out any clearer.


Gandalf, you are the one trying to invent the entire law around a single example. The difference betwen your position and mine is that your fails the common sense test and requires you to ignore the entire context. In this specific example, it is obvious that the rapist did not own the victim. It is not stated because it is obvious from the context, just as rape is obvious from the context, even though the word rape is not actually used.


Quote:
Finally, to date much of your argument has hinged on the idea that this one hadith flies in the face of a recurring theme in islamic law that states that sex is a man's right, and a woman's duty. Clearly insinuating that rape is implicit in islamic law.


No Gandalf, there is a very long list of reasons why your position fails the common sense test, and mine does not. That is why you keep avoiding them.


Quote:
I have demonstrated to you the quran as well as the hadeeth on numerous occassions stress that marriage is about consensual and mutual love


So you won't have any trouble citing an example of the Koran or hadith mentioning the woman's consent as necessary in the context of sex that is permitted? Most Muslims I have spoken to also reject the modern concept of love as a pre-requisite for marriage.


Quote:
and that the woman has a right (sexual and emotional) over the man - just as much as the man has a right over the woman.


Again, you are avoiding the issue that is actually being discussed.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am
These are some of the many points and questions that Gandalf refuses to address. Some of them I have asked at least a dozen times already, only for Gandalf to either ignore it completely or go through torturous mental gymnastics to justify not answering.

Are there any examples from the Koran, Hadith, or orthodox Islamic jurisprudence that uses the word rape in the context of sex that is otherwise permitted?

Are there any examples of Muhammed punishing a man for raping his wife or sex slave?

Is there any kind of explanation of how the concept of consent works and is to be enforced in the context of slavery and a duty to have sex?

How did Muhammed outlaw spousal rape and the rape of sex slaves, women caught in battle etc without it ever being noted? This issue should have arisen many times, given the following:
* rape in this context was part of the existing culture and would have been difficult to change and given the rampant enslavement, rape and pillage under Muhammed and his successors,
* the view of sex as being a man's right and a woman's obligation in these contexts
* the permissibility of violence towards these women
* Muhammed himself chopped of a man's head then took his wife as a sex slave

How can a precedent actually be a statute when it is conveyed as an example with no guide to how broadly it should be interpretted or even what principles are being used to reach the judgement? Isn't this just another example of Muslims altering the meaning of words to suit their arguments, except that this time it does not even make sense? How does calling it a statute somehow remove all the ambiguity in how it is to be itnerpretted?

How do you tell which precedents should be interpreted as broadly as possible and when to apply the principle that halal is the default unless something is specifically outlawed?

Where does the principle come from of interpretting an example as broadly as possible, beyond the reaches of common sense and context?

Why must we interpret that a rape has occurred in Gandalf's example and that the punishment given was for rape, even though the word rape was not actually used, but we must refrain from making other very obvious interpretations, for example that the rapist did not own the victim?

How do you know that the lack of specificity with regards to whether the rapist owned the victim is "deliberate"?

How do you interpret why the hadith "deliberately" didn't state certian things, other than because it is obvious from the context?

Gandalf contradicts himself by insisting we must interpret rape in his one example even though the word is not used, but we must not interpret that the rapist did not own the victim, even though that is also obvious. He has invented a principle that this one example must be interpretted as broadly as possible, well beyond the point where it contradicts the rest of the Koran and hadith, yet he will also use the opposite principle when it suits him - that halal is default unless something is specifically forbidden. His only explanation for this is that a precedent set by Muhammed is actually a statute, which does not even make sense and requires the abandonement of the meaning of these two words.

How do you figure out the bride-price of a rape victim, or how much the value of a slave has been diminished by her being raped?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:28pm
Poor FD still doesn't understand that these questions miss the point entirely. Still, in the interests of good faith I will answer them anyway.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
Are there any examples from the Koran, Hadith, or orthodox Islamic jurisprudence that uses the word rape in the context of sex that is otherwise permitted?


I don't believe so.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
Are there any examples of Muhammed punishing a man for raping his wife or sex slave?


There is an example of Muhammad punishing a man for rape. We don't know whether it was his wife, or slave or another woman. Therefore it is equally valid to any of these scenarios.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
Is there any kind of explanation of how the concept of consent works and is to be enforced in the context of slavery and a duty to have sex?


Short answer - yes. Regarding slaves, islamic law is very clear on treating slaves properly. It makes little sense to tell muslims not to mistreat slaves, not beat them, be kind to them - but allow the rape of slaves.Regarding "duty to have sex" - as mentioned about 5 times already, the "duty" is on the man just as much as it is on the woman - relevant quotes have already been provided in a previous post.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
How did Muhammed outlaw spousal rape and the rape of sex slaves, women caught in battle etc without it ever being noted?


See above answer. Again, ordering the humane treatment of slaves doesn't make sense if at the same time it allows the rape of slaves.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
rape in this context was part of the existing culture and would have been difficult to change and given the rampant enslavement, rape and pillage under Muhammed and his successors


Correct - I'm glad you are finally beginning to understand it. Ending an age-old practice is best done with a phased approach - not a sudden outright ban.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
the view of sex as being a man's right and a woman's obligation in these contexts


already refuted. Feel free to desist repeating this lie.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
the permissibility of violence towards these women


I have already argued that this is not the case


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
Muhammed himself chopped of a man's head then took his wife as a sex slave


Yes, and I'm sure that woman was totally in a consensual loving relationship with that man  ::)

Still going? Ah I see, we're not even half way through...


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
How can a precedent actually be a statute when it is conveyed as an example with no guide to how broadly it should be interpretted or even what principles are being used to reach the judgement?


Welcome to islamic law. It the same case for a whole heap of restrictions in islam. For anyone with an ounce of common sense, it makes perfect sense.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
Where does the principle come from of interpretting an example as broadly as possible


I believe its called the principle of common sense.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
Why must we interpret that a rape has occurred in Gandalf's example and that the punishment given was for rape, even though the word rape was not actually used, but we must refrain from making other very obvious interpretations, for example that the rapist did not own the victim?


Because no one disputes that it was rape - not even you. And it is not obvious at all that the rapist didn't "own" the victim. Notice there is a distinct lack of detail regarding what the relationship was between the two?


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
How do you know that the lack of specificity with regards to whether the rapist owned the victim is "deliberate"?


Because it makes sense. But thats not the point - the point is that it *IS* non-specific, and therefore there is no reason why it *CAN'T* be used universally. Explain to me if you can (ooh better not "avoid" this one FD - might make you a hypocrite  :P) - why a judge cannot make a conviction against a husband when his wife complains of being taken by force - citing the sunna (islamic law) about the prophet convicting a non-descript man taking by force a non-descript woman?

Oh by the way, where in the hadith anywhere is there any mention of unlawful sex? Note how it says the prophet passed judgment on the man who had "intercourse" with the woman (in another version, it is "assaulted" the woman) - *NOT* who had "illegal intercourse". Can I now apply your same logic and argue that if (as you keep insisting) the man was convicted for unlawful sex, and not rape, shouldn't there be some shred of evidence that this was the case? Please feel free to consider this a particularly important point to respond to FD.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 11:45am:
How do you interpret why the hadith "deliberately" didn't state certian things, other than because it is obvious from the context?


To ensure that every possible rape scenario is not left out.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm
Gandalf, the Islamic punishment for rape obviously only applies where Islam recognises that a rape has occurred. Insisting that the verse you cite is a general prohibition on rape in all contexts is purely wishful thinking. There are plenty of reasons to think that Islam does not recognise rape and does not recognise the need for consent in the context of sex that is permitted. You have presented no good reasons to think otherwise. Imposing modern concepts of consent, rape, "no means no" etc to a barbaric culture where these concepts are completely alien is a huge ask. Insisting that this happened without anyone noticing it and writing it down, or needing to write it down, is just ludicrous.


Quote:
See above answer. Again, ordering the humane treatment of slaves doesn't make sense if at the same time it allows the rape of slaves.


It depends what you mean by humane. Just as it depends what you mean by rape. I have seen verses that talk about beating slaves and wives as if it is permitted.


Quote:
Correct - I'm glad you are finally beginning to understand it. Ending an age-old practice is best done with a phased approach - not a sudden outright ban.


Can you elaborate please? By "phased approach" do you mean "never talking about it"? Did Muhammed somehow trick his followers into adopting this law without them ever realising that a major change in their culture had taken place?


Quote:
already refuted. Feel free to desist repeating this lie.


But you did not refute it. You confirmed it. Attempting to justify it is not the same as refuting it.


Quote:
I have already argued that this is not the case


Not very strongly. You even conceded that the orthodox view permits wife beating.


Quote:
Welcome to islamic law. It the same case for a whole heap of restrictions in islam. For anyone with an ounce of common sense, it makes perfect sense.


Can you give some examples? So far the only example you have given is that a general prohibition on alcohol should be interpretted as a general prohibition on alcohol. This is pretty much the opposite of the principle you are applying.


Quote:
Because no one disputes that it was rape - not even you. And it is not obvious at all that the rapist didn't "own" the victim.


Yes it is. It is just as obvious as the rapist being punished for rape rather than illegal sexual intercourse.


Quote:
Notice there is a distinct lack of detail regarding what the relationship was between the two?


Did you also notice the complete absence of references to aliens? Do you think this was deliberate, so Muslims know it also applies when aliens are not present?


Quote:
Because it makes sense. But thats not the point - the point is that it *IS* non-specific, and therefore there is no reason why it *CAN'T* be used universally. Explain to me if you can (ooh better not "avoid" this one FD - might make you a hypocrite  Tongue) - why a judge cannot make a conviction against a husband when his wife complains of being taken by force - citing the sunna (islamic law) about the prophet convicting a non-descript man taking by force a non-descript woman?


I just gave you a very long list of reasons. Usually it is you who goes on about context.


Quote:
Note how it says the prophet passed judgment on the man who had "intercourse" with the woman (in another version, it is "assaulted" the woman) - *NOT* who had "illegal intercourse".


And *NOT* the man who raped her.


Quote:
Can I now apply your same logic and argue that if (as you keep insisting) the man was convicted for unlawful sex, and not rape


That is not my argument. My argument is that the punishment is identical to that for unlawful sex, and that the precedent only applies where Islam recognises rape.   


Quote:
To ensure that every possible rape scenario is not left out.


So you interpret it that way because you want to interpret it that way? What if an Islamic lawyer decides he does want to leave out the scenario of rape in the context where sex is permitted. What makes your interpretation any more valid than his?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by moses on Aug 31st, 2013 at 3:52pm
gandalf wrote:
Quote:
Why don't you quote 24:8 moses - which says the wife can do exactly the same thing (ie swear 4 times) as testimony that he is lying?

24:8 and 24:9 applying to women mirrors exactly 24:6 and 24:7 for men. Yet further proof that the quran is even handed with the treatment of men and women.


Well gandalf, because I am still convinced that women are discriminated against by muslims look at their lot in modern life e.g. blamed and killed or mutilated if they are raped, denied education, forbidden to talk to men alone, referred to as cat's meat deserving of rape by Australian muslim mufti etc.etc.

I am more than convinced that oppression of women is endemic throughout islamic society because it is enshrined in islam religion and culture due to  the qur'an and  hadith teachings which denigrate women:


Quote:
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

qur'an4.34 : Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, lastly beat them ; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)[/

Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”


Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.”

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”

Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.”

Bukhari:V4B55N547 “The Prophet said, ‘But for the Israelis, meat would not decay, and if it were not for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands.’”

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.”

Ishaq:185 “In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.”

Qur’an 24:33 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.”

Ishaq:469 “The Apostle said, ‘Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sa’d.’”

Ishaq:496 “Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’”

Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”


As far as I'm concerned the present day treatment of women women by muslim men coupled with the qur'an and hadith teachings are proof of the derogatory attitude of islam towards women.



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 31st, 2013 at 3:59pm
It is quite telling that Muslims think the rule somehow negates criticism that Islam considers sex a man's right. It is almost as absurd as the rule that a woman may be allowed to beat her husband as compensation for "excessive" beating.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 31st, 2013 at 4:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 30th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 29th, 2013 at 7:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 8:39pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 7:07pm:
The word of a female cannot convict a man for rape.


rubbish. Show me the quote where it says this.

The only instance where a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's is in the case of witnessing financial transactions and contracts.

Also its complete baloney that 4 witnesses are needed for a rape conviction. The quranic verse refers to when men accuse women of adultery.

Little known fact: No proof is required in islam when a woman claims rape. They are taken at their word. However convicting an accused man of rape is another matter - but does *NOT* require 4 witnesses. But the 4 witness issue only pertains to the issue of men accusing women of adultery/fornication. .


Bukhari/52/22 i quoted it in previous post.

Are you saying rape is not Zina (unlawful intercourse), would that be a pathetic effort to redefine rape as something other than unlawful intercourse?

The Quran says Islam has been perfected in 5/3, there is no verse outlawing rape in the Quran yet we have verses where Muhammad gets 20% of all war booty.

There are numerous cases around the world in Islamic countries of women being convicted for zina because they could not produce 4 male witnesses to prove rape, do you expect people to believe your lies?

Amnesty International on Pakistan which is 99% muslim-

Quote:
A woman is raped every 2 hours and one is gang raped every 8 hours in Pakistan ,according to the country's independent human rights commission.In reality the figure may be far higher as many rapes go unreported.

Under the hudood ordinances introduced by General Zia 27 years ago, rape victims had to have 4 male witnesses to the crime.Id they didnt they faced prosecution for adultery- a crime that carries the death penalty by stoning.
www.amnesty.org.au/svaw/comments/2257/
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance



There have been numerous cases of women being jailed in the UAE for unlawful sex after reporting being raped,the Aussie lady Alicia Gali is one here is another-
[quote]In the UAE , as in some other countries using Islamic law, a  rape conviction can require either a confession or the testimoney of 4 male witnesses.
www.news.yahoo.com/woman-jailed-dubai-reporting-rape-hopes-warn-others-194626273.html


If we google rape law saudi arabia we get more cases of women being punished for being raped if they cannot find 4 witnesses.

If we google rape law yemen the results will tell the story.

If we google rape law iran you will discover the ruling Islamic regime orders prison guards to rape virgins who are to be executed,does that mean the ruling Islamic regime orders the rape of women

We could read what the Grand Mufti of Australia said about rape
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly


Sorry Baron, but where in all that waffle did you substantiate your 2 claims that 1. islamic law requires 4 male witnesses for a rape conviction and 2. a female witness cannot be used to convict a man for rape?[/quote]

So where did you establish there is even a law prohibiting rape?
There is nothing in the Quran that forbids rape, if we look at books that came over 200 years after the Quran we find some verses yet they are not from allah they are from men with flaws who passed down sayings of the prophet like a series of chinese whispers for over 200 years before someone other than allah put them in a book.
Muslims claim the Quran is perfect, allah says he perfected Islam in 5/3 so why do muslims need the hadith which came over 200 years after the Quran?


Quote:
A woman was coerced (ie raped) during the time of Messenger of Allah,he waived the legal punishment for her and carried it out on the one who attacked her.,but he did not say that the rules that she should be given bridal money.
www.sunnah.com/urn/1269150

So what was this legal punishment that Mo waived?


Quote:
A government male slave tried to seduce a slave girl from the Khumus of the war booty till he deflowered her by force against her will:Therefore Umar flogged him according to the law, and exiled him
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/89/10

Umar was a Caliph which was the highest rank in Islam even higher than Grand Mufti Gandalf.
Umar flogged a rapist and exiled him according to the law.

Take note of this part Gandalf-

Quote:
If she does not produce any of those, the hadd is inflicted on her and what she claims is not accepted from her
www.sunnah.com/urn/415900

It seems Bukhari was right, a womans word is equal to half that of a man.

If we go back to the Quran with 24/13 what does that say about witnesses?
www.quran.com/24/13

The hadith is evidence Islamic laws are man made and have stuff all to do with Mohammad's imaginary friend in the sky called Allah.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by True Colours on Aug 31st, 2013 at 5:40pm
If the Islamophobes have to start relying on fake texts then they must be getting desperate.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Aug 31st, 2013 at 6:37pm
Would you mind pointing out the fake ones for us?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by True Colours on Sep 1st, 2013 at 1:09am
Where should I start? With the dodgy translations or the fact thaty we cannot find books called Tabari or Ishaq?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 1st, 2013 at 9:12am
Yes please. I googled that verse attributed to Tabari and got 374000 results.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 1st, 2013 at 10:25am

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 4:57pm:
There is nothing in the Quran that forbids rape, if we look at books that came over 200 years after the Quran we find some verses yet they are not from allah they are from men with flaws who passed down sayings of the prophet like a series of chinese whispers for over 200 years before someone other than allah put them in a book.


;D ;D Thats just hillarious Baron. Does this mean you are going to stop using hadeeth to "prove" your points about the evilness of islam?

No I didn't think so.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:16am

freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm:
Gandalf, the Islamic punishment for rape obviously only applies where Islam recognises that a rape has occurred


Correct. Whats that you were saying about circular reasoning again?

If you want to put it that way - then islam doesn't recognise rape in the "conventional" way either. It does however have a universal principle that says attacking and forcing women (any women) is not on. You seemed willing to accept that rape - as in forced sex outside the bounds of where sex is permitted - is recognised in islam - yet funnily enough you have never explained how the relevant hadith makes that distinction.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm:
But you did not refute it. You confirmed it.


No I refuted your claim that islamic law *ONLY* says that sex is a man's right and a woman's duty. I quoted you several verses that state that sex is a woman's right and a man's duty also. Marriage in islam is based on mutuality.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm:
Yes it is. It is just as obvious as the rapist being punished for rape rather than illegal sexual intercourse.


Please explain to me how it is obvious what the relationship between the victim and perpetrator was. Answer with specific reference to the text of the hadith.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm:
Did you also notice the complete absence of references to aliens?


And yet a reference to aliens would have been irrelevant to determining who raped who, and what this ruling applies to. A reference to the relationship between the victim and perpetrator would have been pretty relevant to substantiating your otherwise baseless claim regarding who raped who - no?


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm:
I just gave you a very long list of reasons. Usually it is you who goes on about context.


You have given me exactly zero reasons why there is any good reason to take your word that this is definitely a specific rape scenario - when there is nothing - repeat nothing - in the hadith to indicate that there is any indication of what the relationship between the victim and perpetrator was.


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm:
And *NOT* the man who raped her.


The arabic word for illegal intercourse is "zina" (زنا‬‎). ‫ Nowhere in the hadith is that word mentioned - I already checked the original arabic. But here it is - double check for me if you want:
http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/40/29

Another task for you - explain how convicting a man for having "intercourse" (going by the translation provided) - not "illegal intercourse" - on what basis do you conclude that this is only applicable for sex outside marriage (zina) - when there is no mention of the word, and no hint whatsoever that this was *EXCLUSIVELY* a case of (in your words) "sex where sex is not permitted?"



Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:45am

Quote:
You seemed willing to accept that rape - as in forced sex outside the bounds of where sex is permitted - is recognised in islam - yet funnily enough you have never explained how the relevant hadith makes that distinction.


I never claimed it did. The only person claiming it says something that it does not actually say is you. You do this by picking principles out of thin air.


Quote:
No I refuted your claim that islamic law *ONLY* says that sex is a man's right and a woman's duty.


Strawman.


Quote:
Please explain to me how it is obvious what the relationship between the victim and perpetrator was. Answer with specific reference to the text of the hadith.


Like I said, it is obvious, just as it is obvious he raped her, even though it does not actually say so.


Quote:
And yet a reference to aliens would have been irrelevant to determining who raped who, and what this ruling applies to. A reference to the relationship between the victim and perpetrator would have been pretty relevant to substantiating your otherwise baseless claim regarding who raped who - no?


Sure, if they forsaw that in 1400 years time the culture might have changed to recognise spousal rape, then they would have seen it as relevant.


Quote:
The arabic word for illegal intercourse is "zina" {/quote]

No. Instead we have Muhammed saying to behead the man who had intercourse.

I think the arabic text you posted messed with the forum software - I could not quote the rest of the passge.

[quote]Another task for you - explain how convicting a man for having "intercourse" (going by the translation provided) - not "illegal intercourse" - on what basis do you conclude that this is only applicable for sex outside marriage (zina) - when there is no mention of the word, and no hint whatsoever that this was *EXCLUSIVELY* a case of (in your words) "sex where sex is not permitted?"


From the broader context - from the rest of Islam.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:48am
Once again Gandalf is ignoring the key issues:


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm:
Gandalf, the Islamic punishment for rape obviously only applies where Islam recognises that a rape has occurred. Insisting that the verse you cite is a general prohibition on rape in all contexts is purely wishful thinking. There are plenty of reasons to think that Islam does not recognise rape and does not recognise the need for consent in the context of sex that is permitted. You have presented no good reasons to think otherwise. Imposing modern concepts of consent, rape, "no means no" etc to a barbaric culture where these concepts are completely alien is a huge ask. Insisting that this happened without anyone noticing it and writing it down, or needing to write it down, is just ludicrous.


Quote:
See above answer. Again, ordering the humane treatment of slaves doesn't make sense if at the same time it allows the rape of slaves.


It depends what you mean by humane. Just as it depends what you mean by rape. I have seen verses that talk about beating slaves and wives as if it is permitted.

[quote]Correct - I'm glad you are finally beginning to understand it. Ending an age-old practice is best done with a phased approach - not a sudden outright ban.


Can you elaborate please? By "phased approach" do you mean "never talking about it"? Did Muhammed somehow trick his followers into adopting this law without them ever realising that a major change in their culture had taken place?


Quote:
I have already argued that this is not the case


Not very strongly. You even conceded that the orthodox view permits wife beating.


Quote:
Welcome to islamic law. It the same case for a whole heap of restrictions in islam. For anyone with an ounce of common sense, it makes perfect sense.


Can you give some examples? So far the only example you have given is that a general prohibition on alcohol should be interpretted as a general prohibition on alcohol. This is pretty much the opposite of the principle you are applying.


Quote:
Can I now apply your same logic and argue that if (as you keep insisting) the man was convicted for unlawful sex, and not rape


That is not my argument. My argument is that the punishment is identical to that for unlawful sex, and that the precedent only applies where Islam recognises rape.   


Quote:
To ensure that every possible rape scenario is not left out.


So you interpret it that way because you want to interpret it that way? What if an Islamic lawyer decides he does want to leave out the scenario of rape in the context where sex is permitted. What makes your interpretation any more valid than his?[/quote]

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 1st, 2013 at 12:02pm

freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:45am:
I never claimed it did. The only person claiming it says something that it does not actually say is you. You do this by picking principles out of thin air.


Cut the crap FD - your whole point has been that the hadith is only applicable for "unlawful" sex outside marriage. You said in your last post that it was "obvious" that this was the case. Yet you are still unable to point me to the evidence that indicates this. You my friend are the one picking principles out of thin air. I'm merely going by what the hadith actually says - not what I imagine it says.


freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:45am:
Strawman.


What??

Your argument was that a ban on marital rape cannot be inferred from the rape hadith because it flies against the recurring theme in the quran that sex is the man's right and the woman's duty. Correct?
I am directly refuting that claim - by pointing out that this "right" is not the exclusive domain of the husband - and that the "duty" is not the exclusive domain of the wife. I refute this by pointing to the islamic texts that state that this "right" is granted to the wife as well, and the "duty" is on the husband as well. When this mutuality in marriage is understood, your case that it is only the man who has rights over the woman, and that it is only the woman who has a duty to fulfill vis-a-vis sexual matters, comes tumbling down.

Please understand the difference between a strawman and demolishing the actual case you are making.


freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:45am:
Like I said, it is obvious, just as it is obvious he raped her, even though it does not actually say so.


;D Only it does say she was raped - in its very specific description. Its either a rape or a false accusation of rape - but that is a separate matter. Either way, the prophet was happy to accept her word that it was rape. Or are you going to argue that the woman saying to the group of men, and later the prophet "this man did such and such to me" means "this man had consensual sexual intercourse with me - please stone me".

It does not say what the relationship between the two was. You are right for once - it is obvious that it is rape for the reasons given above - but it is not obvious what the relationship the rapist was to the victim - because it says nothing about it.


freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:45am:
From the broader context - from the rest of Islam.


Ah yes - the "sex is a man's right and a woman's duty" schtick again is it?  :D Do you have any other "broader contexts" that haven't already been smashed to pieces?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 1st, 2013 at 12:05pm

freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:48am:
Once again Gandalf is ignoring the key issues:


No I deliberately stuck to the key issues, and ignored the stupid irrelevant thought bubbles.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 1st, 2013 at 12:26pm
So the issue of how Muhammed managed to criminalise spousal rape, the rape of slaves and women caught in battle, without ever actually mentioning it, is irrelevant to this thread?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 1st, 2013 at 12:41pm

freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2013 at 12:26pm:
So the issue of how Muhammed managed to criminalise spousal rape, the rape of slaves and women caught in battle, without ever actually mentioning it, is irrelevant to this thread?


He did mention it. Its mentioned in a hadith. I've only referenced this about a million times.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 1st, 2013 at 12:57pm
Which hadith mentions spousal rape?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 1st, 2013 at 1:20pm
which hadith mentions non-spousal rape FD?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Karnal on Sep 1st, 2013 at 3:11pm
Ah, my friends, it is only rape if your old boy spouse resists, no?

Gud is great, isn’t it.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 5:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 1st, 2013 at 10:25am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 4:57pm:
There is nothing in the Quran that forbids rape, if we look at books that came over 200 years after the Quran we find some verses yet they are not from allah they are from men with flaws who passed down sayings of the prophet like a series of chinese whispers for over 200 years before someone other than allah put them in a book.


;D ;D Thats just hillarious Baron. Does this mean you are going to stop using hadeeth to "prove" your points about the evilness of islam?

No I didn't think so.


Muslims like to claim the Quran has never been corrupted by man which makes it unique compared to the buy-bull or jewish fairy tales.
I dont give allah a F for the Quran he deserves an I for incomplete, if Islam was perfected as allah claimed in 5/3 then why do muslims need the hadith?

Quote:
Allah speaking-
This is the book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of allah.
www.quran.com/2/2


Muslims realised the Quran was incomplete yet if they added verses to it that would make them hypocrites for claiming the Quran has never been corrupted as they criticse the jews and christians for this, so they came up with a new book/books called the hadith to supplement the Quran and sidestep the issue of why Allah made an incomplete book with the Quran.


So what about the Quran only muslims like Hamza Yusef from the USA who reject the hadith because it is man made unlike God's book, where do they get their rules for rape/prayer/stoning /apostasy etc as these are not in the Quran?

Umar flogged a male slave and exiled him for rape, a lifetime of slavery to some muslim owner or rape one of the girls from the captured war booty get 100 lashes and exiled, does that mean as part of the punishment for rape he was no longer considered a slave?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 9:47pm
The issues Gandalf still refuses to even acknowledge.


freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2013 at 11:48am:
Once again Gandalf is ignoring the key issues:


freediver wrote on Aug 31st, 2013 at 12:58pm:
Gandalf, the Islamic punishment for rape obviously only applies where Islam recognises that a rape has occurred. Insisting that the verse you cite is a general prohibition on rape in all contexts is purely wishful thinking. There are plenty of reasons to think that Islam does not recognise rape and does not recognise the need for consent in the context of sex that is permitted. You have presented no good reasons to think otherwise. Imposing modern concepts of consent, rape, "no means no" etc to a barbaric culture where these concepts are completely alien is a huge ask. Insisting that this happened without anyone noticing it and writing it down, or needing to write it down, is just ludicrous.


Quote:
See above answer. Again, ordering the humane treatment of slaves doesn't make sense if at the same time it allows the rape of slaves.


It depends what you mean by humane. Just as it depends what you mean by rape. I have seen verses that talk about beating slaves and wives as if it is permitted.

[quote]Correct - I'm glad you are finally beginning to understand it. Ending an age-old practice is best done with a phased approach - not a sudden outright ban.


Can you elaborate please? By "phased approach" do you mean "never talking about it"? Did Muhammed somehow trick his followers into adopting this law without them ever realising that a major change in their culture had taken place?

[quote]I have already argued that this is not the case


Not very strongly. You even conceded that the orthodox view permits wife beating.


Quote:
Welcome to islamic law. It the same case for a whole heap of restrictions in islam. For anyone with an ounce of common sense, it makes perfect sense.


Can you give some examples? So far the only example you have given is that a general prohibition on alcohol should be interpretted as a general prohibition on alcohol. This is pretty much the opposite of the principle you are applying.


Quote:
Can I now apply your same logic and argue that if (as you keep insisting) the man was convicted for unlawful sex, and not rape


That is not my argument. My argument is that the punishment is identical to that for unlawful sex, and that the precedent only applies where Islam recognises rape.   


Quote:
To ensure that every possible rape scenario is not left out.


So you interpret it that way because you want to interpret it that way? What if an Islamic lawyer decides he does want to leave out the scenario of rape in the context where sex is permitted. What makes your interpretation any more valid than his?[/quote]
[/quote]

Don't you think this is getting a little silly Gandalf? Do you really expect people to believe you are acting "honestly and in good faith" when you insist there is no need to explain how Muhammed achieved these cultural changes without ever talking about them? Do you expect people to believe that Arabs have considered spousal rape and the rape of slaves to be the same as rape in other contexts since before Muhammed's time?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 8:35am

freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 9:47pm:
Do you expect people to believe that Arabs have considered spousal rape and the rape of slaves to be the same as rape in other contexts since before Muhammed's time?


Probably not. Hence the whole (new) concept of marriage being about mutual support and love introduced by Muhammad and the quran.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by moses on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 9:16am
gandalf wrote:
Quote:
Probably not. Hence the whole (new) concept of marriage being about mutual support and love introduced by Muhammad and the quran.



Well I agree it certainly was a new and unusual concept of love 

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

qur'an4.34 : Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, lastly beat them ; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)[/

Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”


Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.”

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”

Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.”

Bukhari:V4B55N547 “The Prophet said, ‘But for the Israelis, meat would not decay, and if it were not for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands.’”

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: [/b]never trust a woman[/b].”

Ishaq:185 “In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.”

Qur’an 24:33 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.”

Ishaq:469 “The Apostle said, ‘Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sa’d.’”

Ishaq:496 “Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’”

Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”

Tell women: they are stupid, they are liars, cannot be trusted, are the majority of people in hell, their testimony is worth less than a man, beat them etc. etc. certainly was an innovative approach to love and support.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 8:35am:

freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 9:47pm:
Do you expect people to believe that Arabs have considered spousal rape and the rape of slaves to be the same as rape in other contexts since before Muhammed's time?


Probably not. Hence the whole (new) concept of marriage being about mutual support and love introduced by Muhammad and the quran.


So the concept of love in marriage did not even exist before Muhammed?

And husbands and wives did not support each other?

What about all the "slaves that you can have sex with"?

According to Falah Islam rejects modern concepts of love, in particular people falling in love prior to getting married, and supports arranged marriage.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:27pm
quoting 24:6 without quoting the whole passage 24:6-9 again eh moses.

Is that the definition of dishonesty? I mean its not as if you don't know about 24:8 - I pointed it out to you last time.

Quran on amicability in marriage:


Quote:
And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best.

4:128


Quote:
And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

30:21


Quote:
And Allah has made for you your mates of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best

16:72


Quote:
It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her.

7:189


Quote:
They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them.

2:187

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by True Colours on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:34pm

freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:19pm:
According to Falah Islam rejects modern concepts of love, in particular people falling in love prior to getting married, and supports arranged marriage.




Islam teaches that a marriage should be arranged according to a person's inner qualities. The superficial qualities such as outer beauty are considered to be of secondary importance.

Today in the West, it seems to be the other way round with outer beauty being the primary consideration.

Most people in the English-speaking world today seem to confuse the word 'love' with 'lust'. Their idea of love is often confused with sexual attraction.

In the West, we have ridiculous ideas like 'love at first sight'. True love comes from knowing a person's good character. Liking a person's physical appearance is just an attraction of the person's baser animal instincts.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 1:11pm

freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:19pm:


So the concept of love in marriage did not even exist before Muhammed?

And husbands and wives did not support each other?

What about all the "slaves that you can have sex with"?


I don't know anything about pre-islamic arabia.

Common sense though dictates that love and mutual affection between a man and a woman is a pretty universal innate characteristic of humans - irrespective of what religion they hold.

It was however fairly standard fair (and again I don't know the specifics of pre-islamic arabian culture) for pre-modern societies to institute laws and social norms that culturalised oppression of women, and reduce them to mere objects to be bartered by their fathers and uncles, and then objects of possession for their (chosen) husband. This effectively barred women from finding their own mate and marrying who they choose based on mutual love. We know this was very common throughout history, across cultures.

Islam undeniably acknowledged this culture and sought to change it - introducing the then radical notion that marriage should a) be based on mutual love and agreement between the husband and wife and b) provide a relationship that gives equal rights and responsibilities on both the husband and wife. However much you and moses attempt to smear islam, it doesn't change the fact that these new notions about marriage (I gave a sample in my last post) were a significant change in culture (in a general sense - again not being an expert on the specifics of arabian culture), and they were introduced by islam.


Quote:
According to Falah Islam rejects modern concepts of love, in particular people falling in love prior to getting married, and supports arranged marriage.


Sounds like a typical stick-in-the-mud with no imagination. Fact: the quran intends marriage for people who are already in love and decide themselves they want to live in marriage. How is that possible if you can only marry someone you don't know, and chosen by your parents? It is completely contradictory.

Of course we reject living together and sharing a bed before marriage - which is probably what he was referring to with "modern concepts of love".

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by moses on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 2:39pm
gandalf wrote:

Quote:
quoting 24:6 without quoting the whole passage 24:6-9 again eh moses.

Is that the definition of dishonesty? I mean its not as if you don't know about 24:8 - I pointed it out to you last time.

Quran on amicability in marriage:

And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best.
4:128

And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.
30:21

And Allah has made for you your mates of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best
16:72

It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her.
7:189

They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them.
2:187


Well gandalf I think you will find the above are very common thought processes, between man and woman in marriage across all divides.

I'm more interested in the fact that according to islam women are stupid, are liars, cannot be trusted, are the majority of people in hell, their husbands can beat them etc. How do these equate to a show of love and support?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 4:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 1:11pm:
Islam undeniably acknowledged this culture and sought to change it - introducing the then radical notion that marriage should a) be based on mutual love and agreement between the husband and wife and b) provide a relationship that gives equal rights and responsibilities on both the husband and wife.


Islam allows polygamy, secular democracy usually outlaws polygamy.

That should be wives and not wife gandalf, so would that be mutual love between a husband and his 4 wives?

Aisha was Mohammad's favoutite wife, i guess the others were not young enough, i thought wives were supposed to be treated equally so explain to us why Mo had a favourite?


Quote:
The prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and there were eleven in number.
We used to say the prophet was given the strength of 30 men.
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/5/21


So why did Mo have 11 wives when muslim men are only allowed to have 4, the quran tells you to follow the example Mo set so can you have more than 4 wives like Mo did?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 4:36pm

True Colours wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:34pm:
Islam teaches that a marriage should be arranged according to a person's inner qualities.

In the West, we have ridiculous ideas like 'love at first sight'. True love comes from knowing a person's good character.


Mohammad married a few widowed Jewish women on the same day he attacked their tribes, these women were widows because muslims killed their husbands, the Quran tells you to follow Mohammad's example.


Quote:
The messenger of Allah made a raid upon the Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water,he killed those who tried to defend themselves and imprisoned others.

On that very day he captured Juwairiya bint al Harith.
www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/1


So what did Mo think of Aisha's character when he married her when she was 6 years old?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 10:11pm

Quote:
Common sense though dictates that love and mutual affection between a man and a woman is a pretty universal innate characteristic of humans - irrespective of what religion they hold.


Are you backing away from this claim?


Quote:
Probably not. Hence the whole (new) concept of marriage being about mutual support and love introduced by Muhammad and the quran.



Quote:
Sounds like a typical stick-in-the-mud with no imagination. Fact: the quran intends marriage for people who are already in love and decide themselves they want to live in marriage. How is that possible if you can only marry someone you don't know, and chosen by your parents? It is completely contradictory.


Yes it is, but you are the first muslim to offer me an alternative explanation.


Quote:
Of course we reject living together and sharing a bed before marriage - which is probably what he was referring to with "modern concepts of love".


I'm pretty sure he meant arranged marriage.


Quote:
Islam undeniably acknowledged this culture and sought to change it - introducing the then radical notion that marriage should a) be based on mutual love and agreement between the husband and wife


If it is so undeniable, why do so many Muslims deny it?


Quote:
and b) provide a relationship that gives equal rights and responsibilities on both the husband and wife.


How does your explanation apply to "slaves that you can have sex with"? Aren't they supposed to be treated like wives? How can a slave have equal rights? Your explanation seems completely at odds with slavery, and also with the permissibility of wife beating, and all the other derogatory stuff Islam says about women. In practice Islam seems to not change a thing compared to the "bad old days" you attempt to distinguish it from.

Is there anywhere in the Koran where Muhammed explains that people should not be arranging marriages any more and should let their children fall in love with and marry whoever they choose? Or is this like your claims about spousal rape and rape of sex slaves and women caught in battle - that Islam acknowledged the problem and "undeniably" seeks to change it, without ever actually mentioning it, achieving it or even doing anything about it?

Was Muhammed in love with Aisha when she was six years old? Was she in love with him? Is there any kind of description of the courtship, other than the negotiation Muhammed had with Aisha's father to cancel the contract of sale to another man so Muhammed could get her instead?

Did Muhammed fall in love with the other women he married or took as sex slaves, after chopping their husband's heads off in mass executions? Did they fall in love with him?

OK, maybe I am being a bit harsh. Let's start with something simpler. Seeing as you obviously cannot find a single passage in the Koran that uses the word rape in the context of wives and sex slaves, perhaps you could point out a passage that uses the word love in this context?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 4th, 2013 at 12:24pm

freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 10:11pm:
Are you backing away from this claim?


not at all.


freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 10:11pm:
If it is so undeniable, why do so many Muslims deny it?


define "so many".

I could equally say "so many" muslims accept it - and it would be just as useful as your claim.


freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 10:11pm:
How does your explanation apply to "slaves that you can have sex with"? Aren't they supposed to be treated like wives? How can a slave have equal rights? Your explanation seems completely at odds with slavery, and also with the permissibility of wife beating, and all the other derogatory stuff Islam says about women. In practice Islam seems to not change a thing compared to the "bad old days" you attempt to distinguish it from.


I don't accept that sex with slaves is permissible - unless you marry them - at which point they stop being slaves.


freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 10:11pm:
Is there anywhere in the Koran where Muhammed explains that people should not be arranging marriages any more and should let their children fall in love with and marry whoever they choose?


Sure - the part(s) that say marriage should be based on mutual love and free choice.


freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 10:11pm:
Or is this like your claims about spousal rape and rape of sex slaves and women caught in battle - that Islam acknowledged the problem and "undeniably" seeks to change it, without ever actually mentioning it, achieving it or even doing anything about it?


And yet it is mentioned. I believe there is about 20 pages worth of discussion on the relevant hadith.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 4th, 2013 at 12:47pm

Quote:
Sure - the part(s) that say marriage should be based on mutual love and free choice.


Would you mind quoting it? I don't recall ever seeing the word love used by Muhammed, at least not applied to women. The only "precondition" I have seen applied to Islamic marriage is that the child bride does not openly object to it.


Quote:
I don't accept that sex with slaves is permissible - unless you marry them - at which point they stop being slaves.


Didn't Muhammed have sex with his slaves as well as the dozen or so wives? Are you inventing your own religion?


Quote:
And yet it is mentioned. I believe there is about 20 pages worth of discussion on the relevant hadith.


20 pages of your deflections and pretending not to understand the question. The word rape is never uttered in the context of wives, sex slaves and women caught in battle.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by True Colours on Sep 4th, 2013 at 1:29pm

freediver wrote on Sep 4th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

Quote:
Sure - the part(s) that say marriage should be based on mutual love and free choice.


Would you mind quoting it? I don't recall ever seeing the word love used by Muhammed, at least not applied to women.




Do not prevent them from marrying their husbands when they agree between themselves in a lawful manner."
- Quran al-Baqarah, v.232


A marriage is considered invalid in Islam if groom and bride do not both consent to it.



"The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until their order is obtained, and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained."
- Bukhari

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice.
- Abu Dawood

The Quran also mentions the importance of love in marriage:

"And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Undoubtedly in these are signs for those who reflect."
the Quran, ar-Rum, v.21




freediver wrote on Sep 4th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

Quote:
I don't accept that sex with slaves is permissible - unless you marry them - at which point they stop being slaves.


Didn't Muhammed have sex with his slaves as well as the dozen or so wives?


The Prophet remained in a monogamous marriage to an older woman for more than a quarter of a century. When she passed away, he married other women - all but one of them were either widows or divorcees. He married women from different tribes and this helped to break down the tribal barriers of the Arabs who had been very divided along tribal lines. THe prophet freed some slave women and then married them. For example, he freed an Israeli princess named Safiyyah, and then gave her the option to marry him. She decided to marry him, and she became one of the great scholars of Islam who was consulted by many people for her opinion and religious verdicts.




freediver wrote on Sep 4th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

Quote:
And yet it is mentioned. I believe there is about 20 pages worth of discussion on the relevant hadith.


20 pages of your deflections and pretending not to understand the question. The word rape is never uttered in the context of wives, sex slaves and women caught in battle.


WHat you seem to ignore or not be able to get through your thick head is that in Islamic law a ruling is general. If there is exemption to a ruling it has to be spelled out.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 4th, 2013 at 2:26pm
what is the evidence for:

1. muslims being allowed to have sex with their slaves

2. Muhammad having sex with his slaves?

I seem to recall one hadith that said something along the lines of if you really don't think you can resist having sex with your slave, then marry her.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 5th, 2013 at 12:34pm

Quote:
A marriage is considered invalid in Islam if groom and bride do not both consent to it.


Consent and love are not the same thing TC. Consent of both parties is what you should require before selling your camel. Only one of the verses you quoted mentions love, and not as a pre-requisite to marriage.


Quote:
He married women from different tribes and this helped to break down the tribal barriers of the Arabs who had been very divided along tribal lines.


I see. So after he finished chopping the heads off 800 Jews, he took the best looking from among the wives as his sex slave as a peace offering to all the headless men?


Quote:
What you seem to ignore or not be able to get through your thick head is that in Islamic law a ruling is general. If there is exemption to a ruling it has to be spelled out.


Of course. I have already conceded that it is a general ban on rape where Islam recognises rape. Are you suggesting you can change Islamic law by altering the meaning of a word?


Quote:
muslims being allowed to have sex with their slaves


Would you like me quoting Muslims saying this?


Quote:
I seem to recall one hadith that said something along the lines of if you really don't think you can resist having sex with your slave, then marry her.


I guess that settles it then. I think you have also quoted verses saying that "slaves you can have sex with" should be treated similarly to wives.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 5th, 2013 at 12:55pm
Gandalf, would this be a fair description of your position:

Muhammed invented love, but couldn't bring himself to utter the word in case they thought he was acting gay, like Jesus.

Muhammed introduced bold new legislation outlawing spousal rape and the rape of sex slaves and women caught in battle. Again, he didn't tell his followers about it in case they refused to slaughter Jews and Pagans for him - as taking the women home was part of the deal. After Muhammed's 12 wives and many sex slaves, and up to four wives plus sex slaves for other leaders and wealthy men, there were not many women left, so capturing women in battle was a strong incentive to get poor and young Muslims men off to war.

Curiously, Muhammed could not bring himself to utter the word rape either. The one time he did punish someone for rape in the conventional context, he used the word intercourse and gave the same punishment as unlawful intercourse.

Instead of telling Muslims about the ban on rape, Muhammed went for a "phased approach":

Phase 1) Set the ground rules: sex is a man's right. Sex is a woman's obligation. Do not beat your wives "excessively" like you beat your sex slaves, or they will be permitted to beat you in return. Cover them up, and do not leave bruises that will be visible in public. Never ask a man why he beats his wife, as he is obviously a poor communicator.

Phase 2) A 21st century wizard attempts to convince non-Muslims (who have already adopted the standard of their own volition) that Islam has the same standards. After this challenge is completed, move on to the next phase.

Phase 3) Convince Muslims that Islam bans the rape of wives, sex slaves, women caught in battle etc.

Phase 5) Actually change the law and punish rapists.

You may have noticed I left out phase 4. This is not to trick anyone, but an Islamic principle of never presenting information in the obvious order. Phase 4 is the wholesale abandonment of Islamic law by Muslims.

Muhammed also wanted to stop arranged marraiges. Again, he forgot to mention it.

After beheading 800 Jews, Muhammed looked over the women and children who were left behind. He fell madly in love with the best looking one and they lived happily ever after. Their marriage brought peace between Muslims and Jews. Muhammed also fell in love with his neighbour's six year old daughter. She was already betrothed to another man, but Muhammed negotiated the annulment of that contract. The child bride's father also became Muhammed's right hand man.

Everything Muhammed said should be interpreted however you feel like. You may choose between two opposite but non-contradictory principles in making your interpretation:

* Do not forbid what Allah has permitted for you. Everything is legal, unless specifically forbidden.
* Interpret any ruling or precedent in the broadest possible sense, discarding common sense and context. Project 21st century standards and meanings (or whatever standards you think the audience wants to hear) onto events that happened 1400 years ago.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 5th, 2013 at 2:58pm

freediver wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 12:34pm:
Would you like me quoting Muslims saying this?


Yes please  ::) You give me your paraphrasing of what falah and/or Abu allegedly said - which is almost certainly inaccurate as it usually is - and I'll give you a wide selection of learned muslims' actual quotes arguing why sex with slaves is not allowed - and even that slavery itself is not allowed.

But no, I meant islamic text. There are arguments for and against regarding sex with slaves, but the as far as I can tell, the claim that the prophet had sex with slaves is completely baseless.


freediver wrote on Sep 5th, 2013 at 12:55pm:
Muhammed invented love


I'm sorry you had to waste all that time composing that rather lengthy post. But when it begins with this little gem, why would you expect me to read on?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 6th, 2013 at 8:20am
That's not fair Gandalf. I kept reading after you posted this:


polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 8:35am:

freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 9:47pm:
Do you expect people to believe that Arabs have considered spousal rape and the rape of slaves to be the same as rape in other contexts since before Muhammed's time?


Probably not. Hence the whole (new) concept of marriage being about mutual support and love introduced by Muhammad and the quran.


Muhammed had sex with his slaves, like this one that he took for himself after beheading 800 Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

As part of his share of the spoils, Muhammad selected one of the women, Rayhana, for himself and took her as part of his booty.[66] Muhammad offered to free and marry her and according to some sources she accepted his proposal, while according to others she rejected it and remained the Prophet's slave and concubine.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 6th, 2013 at 12:31pm

freediver wrote on Sep 6th, 2013 at 8:20am:
That's not fair Gandalf. I kept reading after you posted this:


Yes, and your failure to recognise the difference between the existence of a human instinct, and the ways that culture and institutions in society deal with that instinct - is duly noted.


freediver wrote on Sep 6th, 2013 at 8:20am:
Muhammed had sex with his slaves, like this one that he took for himself after beheading 800 Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza


Complete rubbish. There is no evidence for such a claim in the article you linked, or anywhere else. If you think I'm wrong, show me the evidence.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 6th, 2013 at 12:42pm
Of course there is evidence. The [66] in the text is an active link in the wiki.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 6th, 2013 at 12:45pm
Is this better Gandalf?

Muhammed invented love (within marriage), but couldn't bring himself to utter the word in case they thought he was acting gay, like Jesus. Other cultures up until that time never made the connection between love and marriage, but Muhammed's "silent revolution" changed all that with a mere nudge and a wink. Gandalf knows what he was talking about, even if other Muslims never cottoned on.

Muhammed introduced bold new legislation outlawing spousal rape and the rape of sex slaves and women caught in battle. Again, he didn't tell his followers about it in case they refused to slaughter Jews and Pagans for him - as taking the women home was part of the deal. After Muhammed's 12 wives and many sex slaves, and up to four wives plus sex slaves for other leaders and wealthy men, there were not many women left, so capturing women in battle was a strong incentive to get poor and young Muslims men off to war.

Curiously, Muhammed could not bring himself to utter the word rape either. The one time he did punish someone for rape in the conventional context, he used the word intercourse and gave the same punishment as unlawful intercourse.

Instead of telling Muslims about the ban on rape, Muhammed went for a "phased approach":

Phase 1) Set the ground rules: sex is a man's right. Sex is a woman's obligation. Do not beat your wives "excessively" like you beat your sex slaves, or they will be permitted to beat you in return. Cover them up, and do not leave bruises that will be visible in public. Never ask a man why he beats his wife, as he is obviously a poor communicator.

Phase 2) A 21st century wizard attempts to convince non-Muslims (who have already adopted the standard of their own volition) that Islam has the same standards. After this challenge is completed, move on to the next phase.

Phase 3) Convince Muslims that Islam bans the rape of wives, sex slaves, women caught in battle etc.

Phase 5) Actually change the law and punish rapists.

You may have noticed I left out phase 4. This is not to trick anyone, but an Islamic principle of never presenting information in the obvious order. Phase 4 is the wholesale abandonment of Islamic law by Muslims.

Muhammed also wanted to stop arranged marraiges. Again, he forgot to mention it.

After beheading 800 Jews, Muhammed looked over the women and children who were left behind. He fell madly in love with the best looking one and they lived happily ever after. Their marriage brought peace between Muslims and Jews. Muhammed also fell in love with his neighbour's six year old daughter. She was already betrothed to another man, but Muhammed negotiated the annulment of that contract. The child bride's father also became Muhammed's right hand man.

Everything Muhammed said should be interpreted however you feel like. You may choose between two opposite but non-contradictory principles in making your interpretation:

* Do not forbid what Allah has permitted for you. Everything is legal, unless specifically forbidden.
* Interpret any ruling or precedent in the broadest possible sense, discarding common sense and context. Project 21st century standards and meanings (or whatever standards you think the audience wants to hear) onto events that happened 1400 years ago.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 6th, 2013 at 12:49pm
Here you go folks, conclusive proof that Muhammad had sex (read: rape) with his slaves:


Quote:
The spoils of battle, including the enslaved women and children of the tribe, were divided up among the Islamic warriors that had participated in the siege and among the emigrees from Mecca (who had hitherto depended on the help of the Muslims native to Medina


open shut case right FD?


freediver wrote on Sep 6th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
Muhammed invented love (within marriage)


I can only surmise that this is some attempt at humour. Sorry to say, but once again you completely wasted your time writing another essay that no one will read. My commiserations. Perhaps you're starting to understand how Yadda feels.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by True Colours on Sep 6th, 2013 at 1:00pm

freediver wrote on Sep 6th, 2013 at 12:42pm:
Of course there is evidence. The [66] in the text is an active link in the wiki.


You mean Rodinson? Sounds like an Arab name does it? An eyewitness account you think?

Got any primary sources? Anyone could write anything 1400 years after a supposed event. You have less credibility than a Murdoch paper.

Shall we start taking Die Sturmer as an authoritative text on Jewish history?



freediver wrote on Sep 6th, 2013 at 12:42pm:
Muhammad offered to free and marry her and according to some sources she accepted his proposal, while according to others she rejected it and remained the Prophet's slave and concubine.


Yes, according to the most authoritative sources, Rayhana was a freed prisoner who accepted a marriage proposal from Prophet Muhammed.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 6th, 2013 at 2:47pm

True Colours wrote on Sep 6th, 2013 at 1:00pm:
You mean Rodinson? Sounds like an Arab name does it? An eyewitness account you think?


Rodinson doesn't even say anything about Muhammad having sex with his slaves, thats the point.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 8th, 2013 at 9:47am
So the "authoritative sources" disagree on whether Muhammed took a specific slave as his own personal concubine, and to you this proves that Islam forbids sex with slaves?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 8th, 2013 at 5:25pm
Whats that got to do with footnote 66 of your link FD? That says nothing about Muhammad taking a concubine - or even anything about Muhammad.

As far as I know Muhammad had no concubines. If you think this is wrong, please provide the evidence of those "authoritative sources" you speak of.


Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 8th, 2013 at 5:54pm

freediver wrote on Sep 8th, 2013 at 9:47am:
and to you this proves that Islam forbids sex with slaves?


;D ;D Lol excuse me? - I'M trying to prove...??

Sorry to break it to you, but its you who's trying to prove something - namely:


freediver wrote on Sep 6th, 2013 at 8:20am:
Muhammed had sex with his slaves, like this one that he took for himself after beheading 800 Jews


Do you have any shred of evidence to substantiate this?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 8th, 2013 at 7:49pm

Quote:
Do you have any shred of evidence to substantiate this?


Sure I do. I already posted it for you.

Is your only disagreement with me on whether Muhammed had sex with this slave girl, not on whether Islam forbids it in general?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 8th, 2013 at 10:10pm

freediver wrote on Sep 8th, 2013 at 7:49pm:
Sure I do. I already posted it for you.


Where? The Rodinson reference that had nothing whatsoever to do with what Muhammad did with his slaves?


freediver wrote on Sep 8th, 2013 at 7:49pm:
Is your only disagreement with me on whether Muhammed had sex with this slave girl, not on whether Islam forbids it in general?


They are two separate matters. For now I am interested in the former. Please stop stalling FD - show me the evidence - actual relevant evidence - that Muhammad had sex with ANY of his slaves.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Sep 9th, 2013 at 12:18am

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 8th, 2013 at 10:10pm:
show me the evidence - actual relevant evidence - that Muhammad had sex with ANY of his slaves.



Quote:
The messenger of allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but Aisha and Hafsa would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him, then just in the nick of time Allah revealed,"O prophet, why did you forbid yourself that which allah has allowed to you"
www.sunnah.com/nasai/36/21


The previous hadith gives the context of this verse in the Quran,Allah the most merciful of those who show mercy allows allows you to have sex with your slaves even if your wives object to this.

Quote:
Allah speaking-
O prophet,why do you prohibit yourself what allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of yourr wives?And Allah is forgiving and merciful
www.quran.com/66/1


I will go into more detail in Mo the role model thread.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 9th, 2013 at 12:40pm
Thanks Baron. Does that count as evidence Gandalf, or are we 'interpreting' it incorrectly? Perhaps you can find another slave girl Muhammed did not have sex with, and interpret that as a general ban on the practice?

Doesn't it seem a bit silly to be arguing over whether Muhammed had sex with a particular slave girl while you insist that Islam forbids it in general?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 9th, 2013 at 12:56pm
Thank you Baron - that certainly is evidence, and I will look into it. I was not aware of that hadith before.

FD - I wouldn't be gloating over this - its certainly not the evidence you used for your claim. I'm still interested to know how your reference to the Rodinson passage is evidence for Muhammad having sex with his slaves.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 9th, 2013 at 9:50pm
Any idea how many slaves Muhammed had sex with?

And how many of them had their previous husband's head chopped off by Muhammed?

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by gandalf on Sep 9th, 2013 at 10:07pm
Your story FD, why don't you tell me?  - I'm sure you've got the answer hidden in some seemingly unrelated footnote.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by freediver on Sep 9th, 2013 at 10:43pm
Actually Gandalf, you'll be surprised to learn that Abu, Falah, Malik etc did not go out of their way to tell everyone how many wives, sex slaves, goats etc Muhammed had.

Title: Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Post by Baronvonrort on Sep 10th, 2013 at 12:57pm

freediver wrote on Sep 9th, 2013 at 9:50pm:
Any idea how many slaves Muhammed had sex with?


He threatened to divorce his wives for complaining about him porking his slave girl, he had sex with Maria for 29 days while ignoring his wives as punishment for them complaining.

This hadith also indictates the Ansari women had the upper hand over men before Islam took over which makes a mockery of the Islamic claim that Islam gave women rights.

www.sunnah.com/bukhari/46/29



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