Australian Politics Forum - Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader

Gist

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #30 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:58am

Grey wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:39am:

Rudd had the overwhelming support of the people. So did Hitler. It's amazing that Gillard received the most support ever in a spill, regardless of the support Rudd has in the community. Marginal back benches voted against their own interests.

It highlights what I often point out. People are voting for candidates they don't KNOW from a bar of soap.
They are voting for gang members. Real parlimentary reform would involve the abolition of parties and factions. Rather than the current vogue for amalgamating local government, we should be looking at adding a tier. The BLOCK! local blocks of something like 1 - 200 homes electing representatives that forward their views to WARD level and ward representatives who elect their most capable members to go on to Local/state and federal levels. this would be a system that stops the tail wagging the dog.

The members of the Labor Caucus KNEW personally the people they were voting for. And so for that matter did the Liberal opposition. They've made it quite clear that they'd prefer Rudd to be leading Labor Cheesy

You mean a bit like Russia under the communist system? That didn't seem to work out all that well for them.

Needless to say, I disagree with you on that Grey. I think all that system does is create more politicians whose only job will be to do whatever it takes to get themselves re-elected. You and I will lose whatever little true representation we have.

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matty

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #31 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 12:12pm

Thank you Labor MPs. You have given the Coalition a massive majority at the next election. We would have won anyway, but this just makes the gap even bigger, and ensures that you will be in the wilderness for at least 20 years. I think that I can speak on behalf of all right-wing Australians, THANK YOU!!!!!!

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Uncle Meat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2434 Tasmania Gender:	Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader Reply #32 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 12:26pm adelcrow wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 9:52am: 73 julia 29 kevin..he got flogged worse than Alan Jones at a bunga bunga party 71 Julia 31 Kevin Still a flogging though.
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Grey

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #33 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 12:49pm

Gist wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:58am:

Grey wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:39am:

Rudd had the overwhelming support of the people. So did Hitler. It's amazing that Gillard received the most support ever in a spill, regardless of the support Rudd has in the community. Marginal back benches voted against their own interests.

It highlights what I often point out. People are voting for candidates they don't KNOW from a bar of soap.
They are voting for gang members. Real parlimentary reform would involve the abolition of parties and factions. Rather than the current vogue for amalgamating local government, we should be looking at adding a tier. The BLOCK! local blocks of something like 1 - 200 homes electing representatives that forward their views to WARD level and ward representatives who elect their most capable members to go on to Local/state and federal levels. this would be a system that stops the tail wagging the dog.

The members of the Labor Caucus KNEW personally the people they were voting for. And so for that matter did the Liberal opposition. They've made it quite clear that they'd prefer Rudd to be leading Labor Cheesy

You mean a bit like Russia under the communist system? That didn't seem to work out all that well for them.

Needless to say, I disagree with you on that Grey. I think all that system does is create more politicians whose only job will be to do whatever it takes to get themselves re-elected. You and I will lose whatever little true representation we have.

That's the big objection isn't it? Grin

Look under Communism that tail wagged the dog and the tail was very strong indeed. People didn't set up their local 'Soviets', the Bolsheviks did. The Bolsheviks decided who was going to run and be in the Soviets and for a start that was card carrying party members only.

What I am suggesting isn't that. Throughout human political history the structure has been decided from the top. The evolutionary trend is towards the decentralising of power. Giving more to the people and increasing the voting franchise to all the people. But the TOP has only grudgingly given away as little as possible.

What I am suggesting is reversing the current of power. Not 'power to the people', but 'power from the people'. That's Democracy proper.

Let's look at practical matters in a hypothetical.

Our block has a 10 acre park. It's all grass with a couple of peppermint trees down one end. Our needs are for a cycleway around the perimetre for children to learn bike riding away from roads. We need A space for cricket and football, other spaces for frisby throwing, we want to be able to use the park for overflow parking (when we have a party) and some older people would like a flower garden. We all want more shade. A barbeque and gazebo would be nice too.

Right now we don't get to discuss what happens to that park. We have no mechanism for discussing it amongst ourselves. From time to time council might decide to do something and that may well conflict with our actual needs. For instance the federal government may be dishing out money to improve facilities for toddlers and also for irrigation. So we get a playground plonked in the middle, still with no shade provided, and a lot of upheaval to put in state of the art irrigation. Our estate is built on reclaimed swamp land. It has a high water table, the grass has never needed watering. We have plenty of teenagers with no resources to speak of but no toddlers Sound familiar?

We do need a copper because some of that teen energy is being directed negatively. We keep getting mail boxes vandalised, cars stolen, and bottles broken on the footpath. We pay our taxes (for a police force) to the federal government who give some back to the state government,(after spending it on setting up a polce force bureacracy and big advertising campaigns to let us know what they might do) who decide how to spend it; after setting up their own bureacracy and advertising funds. The State government decides that the most marginal metropolitan seats are in need of more police even though our regional city has practically no police force at all. We've voted the same for the last sixty years. Sound familiar?

A lot more decisions need to be taken by local people. A lot more of our taxes need to stay where they are collected.

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Frances

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #34 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:01pm

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 9:37am:

Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader

I know that you are just paraphrasing something attributed to Kevin Rudd, rather than having any original thoughts of your own but I find your emphasis on Julia Gillard bring childless as incredibly sexist. Is having children within wedlock a prerequisite of being a Prime Minister? And would you be saying the same things if she were male? Is a woman less of a person if she does not have children?

Surely we've moved on from that sort of attitude. And if we're going to resort to this sort of attack, what about Julie Bishop: she is childless, unmarried and divorced.....

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____

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #35 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:08pm

Frances wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:01pm:

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 9:37am:

Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader

I know that you are just paraphrasing something attributed to Kevin Rudd, rather than having any original thoughts of your own but I find your emphasis on Julia Gillard bring childless as incredibly sexist. Is having children within wedlock a prerequisite of being a Prime Minister? And would you be saying the same things if she were male? Is a woman less of a person if she does not have children?

Surely we've moved on from that sort of attitude. And if we're going to resort to this sort of attack, what about Julie Bishop: she is childless, unmarried and divorced.....

Yet the opposition foreign minister didn't say it about herself in the Stag Pub in Adelaide.

And Childless is not sexist because males can be childless too ... are you , by pretending offence, actually the sexist party here. Men have just as much right to be protected from sexism as anyone else.

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Frances

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #36 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:12pm

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:08pm:

And Childless is not sexist because males can be childless too ... are you , by pretending offence, actually the sexist party here. Men have just as much right to be protected from sexism as anyone else.

But this sort of attack is invariably directed at females.

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Sure God created man before woman. But then you always make a rough draft before the final masterpiece.

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #37 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:13pm

Frances wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:01pm:

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 9:37am:

Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader

I know that you are just paraphrasing something attributed to Kevin Rudd, rather than having any original thoughts of your own but I find your emphasis on Julia Gillard bring childless as incredibly sexist. Is having children within wedlock a prerequisite of being a Prime Minister? And would you be saying the same things if she were male? Is a woman less of a person if she does not have children?

Surely we've moved on from that sort of attitude. And if we're going to resort to this sort of attack, what about Julie Bishop: she is childless, unmarried and divorced.....

Yes, but Julie B. is not godless, barren or soulless.
Nor is she incompetent.

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader Reply #38 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:14pm There's no doubt today is a real game changer! Tony Abbott has never looked more stupid.
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____

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #39 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:17pm

Frances wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:12pm:

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:08pm:

And Childless is not sexist because males can be childless too ... are you , by pretending offence, actually the sexist party here. Men have just as much right to be protected from sexism as anyone else.

But this sort of attack is invariably directed at females.

No it isn't and by making this remark shows your inverted male sexist attitude.

You can't just lift up women by trying to drag down men.

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progressiveslol

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #40 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:20pm

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:17pm:

Frances wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:12pm:

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:08pm:

And Childless is not sexist because males can be childless too ... are you , by pretending offence, actually the sexist party here. Men have just as much right to be protected from sexism as anyone else.

But this sort of attack is invariably directed at females.

No it isn't and by making this remark shows your inverted male sexist attitude.

You can't just lift up women by trying to drag down men.

lol Gillard getting back in has really made you loopy. You go on as if you and your commie greens party are the champions of women and minorities. Frauds is all you greenies are.

Next thing you are going to say is turning boats around is the right thing to do lol

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____

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #41 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:31pm

progressiveslol wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:20pm:

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:17pm:

Frances wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:12pm:

____ wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 1:08pm:

And Childless is not sexist because males can be childless too ... are you , by pretending offence, actually the sexist party here. Men have just as much right to be protected from sexism as anyone else.

But this sort of attack is invariably directed at females.

No it isn't and by making this remark shows your inverted male sexist attitude.

You can't just lift up women by trying to drag down men.

lol Gillard getting back in has really made you loopy. You go on as if you and your commie greens party are the champions of women and minorities. Frauds is all you greenies are.

Next thing you are going to say is turning boats around is the right thing to do lol

Greens are the champions of equality ... our policies and actions prove this.

Thats why we don't have an agenda to torture children in refugee prison camps overseas ... unlike the old parties.

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longweekend58

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #42 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 3:15pm

adelcrow wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 10:53am:

longweekend58 wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 10:52am:

adelcrow wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 9:57am:

Kat wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 9:54am:

Well, there goes Labor.

And there goes the country after the next election.

I'm off to renew my passport......

Singapore's a nice place to live and theres none of this election crap every 5 minutes, you can rent one of our apartments out by the river if you like

not in any small measure by the govt tending to arrest and hassle the opposition. Democracy is not well entrenched in singapore - the only country with a jail sentence for j-walking.

And the problem with that is?

I guess the notion of anti-democratic behaviour and intimidation is okay for Greens supporters since that is pretty much your ideology.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #43 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 3:19pm

Gist wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:54am:

Verge wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:36am:

Gist wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:25am:

Verge wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:12am:

adelcrow wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 10:06am:

Gist wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 10:03am:

Onya Jools! I never had any doubt that it would turn out otherwise. Now that that rubbish is out of the way, can we get on with some good policy?

Now its all up the Gillard, if she cant wipe the floor with Abbott now the boils been lanced she doesnt deserve to be there.
I suspect Abbotts days are now numbered

Do you really believe she can beat Abbott.

Delusional much?

The only hope the ALP had at the next election was a Rudd PM.

Rubbish. Ever since Hawke, Labor seems to think they need some messiah to win elections. Whereas what they really need is discipline in the ranks to show a united front, good policies and the skill to sell them. So far they get half a tick on policies and no tick at all for the other two.

Gillards standings in the polls seem to beg to differ.

Are you talking about preferred PM? You do realise that that measure doesn't mean much other than to give the media something to fill fish'n'chip wrappers with don't you?

PPM seems to matter to you lot a great deal - whenever Gillard is in front. When abbot is in front it is 'meaningless'.

now for the record, the measure IS meaningless, but not just when abbott is behind.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Congrats ~ Childless Atheist Ex-Commie ALP Leader
Reply #44 - Feb 27^th, 2012 at 3:22pm

Grey wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

Gist wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:58am:

Grey wrote on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 11:39am:

Rudd had the overwhelming support of the people. So did Hitler. It's amazing that Gillard received the most support ever in a spill, regardless of the support Rudd has in the community. Marginal back benches voted against their own interests.

It highlights what I often point out. People are voting for candidates they don't KNOW from a bar of soap.
They are voting for gang members. Real parlimentary reform would involve the abolition of parties and factions. Rather than the current vogue for amalgamating local government, we should be looking at adding a tier. The BLOCK! local blocks of something like 1 - 200 homes electing representatives that forward their views to WARD level and ward representatives who elect their most capable members to go on to Local/state and federal levels. this would be a system that stops the tail wagging the dog.

The members of the Labor Caucus KNEW personally the people they were voting for. And so for that matter did the Liberal opposition. They've made it quite clear that they'd prefer Rudd to be leading Labor Cheesy

You mean a bit like Russia under the communist system? That didn't seem to work out all that well for them.

Needless to say, I disagree with you on that Grey. I think all that system does is create more politicians whose only job will be to do whatever it takes to get themselves re-elected. You and I will lose whatever little true representation we have.

That's the big objection isn't it? Grin

Look under Communism that tail wagged the dog and the tail was very strong indeed. People didn't set up their local 'Soviets', the Bolsheviks did. The Bolsheviks decided who was going to run and be in the Soviets and for a start that was card carrying party members only.

What I am suggesting isn't that. Throughout human political history the structure has been decided from the top. The evolutionary trend is towards the decentralising of power. Giving more to the people and increasing the voting franchise to all the people. But the TOP has only grudgingly given away as little as possible.

What I am suggesting is reversing the current of power. Not 'power to the people', but 'power from the people'. That's Democracy proper.

Let's look at practical matters in a hypothetical.

Our block has a 10 acre park. It's all grass with a couple of peppermint trees down one end. Our needs are for a cycleway around the perimetre for children to learn bike riding away from roads. We need A space for cricket and football, other spaces for frisby throwing, we want to be able to use the park for overflow parking (when we have a party) and some older people would like a flower garden. We all want more shade. A barbeque and gazebo would be nice too.

Right now we don't get to discuss what happens to that park. We have no mechanism for discussing it amongst ourselves. From time to time council might decide to do something and that may well conflict with our actual needs. For instance the federal government may be dishing out money to improve facilities for toddlers and also for irrigation. So we get a playground plonked in the middle, still with no shade provided, and a lot of upheaval to put in state of the art irrigation. Our estate is built on reclaimed swamp land. It has a high water table, the grass has never needed watering. We have plenty of teenagers with no resources to speak of but no toddlers Sound familiar?

We do need a copper because some of that teen energy is being directed negatively. We keep getting mail boxes vandalised, cars stolen, and bottles broken on the footpath. We pay our taxes (for a police force) to the federal government who give some back to the state government,(after spending it on setting up a polce force bureacracy and big advertising campaigns to let us know what they might do) who decide how to spend it; after setting up their own bureacracy and advertising funds. The State government decides that the most marginal metropolitan seats are in need of more police even though our regional city has practically no police force at all. We've voted the same for the last sixty years. Sound familiar?

A lot more decisions need to be taken by local people. A lot more of our taxes need to stay where they are collected.

the real problem with your idea is the presumption that the people's ideas wil be passed up the line. After all you lot cheered when Oakshott and Windsor did preceisely the opposite.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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