Australian Politics Forum - The Republic Of Australia

NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #30 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 3:38pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 3:32pm:

Why don't you promote a better solution? The vaccuous rhetoric is coming from the republicans. It is people like you who focus on the the issue of whether the system is laballed a republic or monarchy, who try to label your opposition with silly slogans. All you have to do is come up with something that works better and it wouldn't matter whether it was republic or monarchy.

There is no such thing as a "better solution" for cultural babies, just more reason to filibuster the debate.

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muso

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #31 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 3:41pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 3:32pm:

It is not 'wise caution'. I am not saying we should take things slowly. I am saying that I am opposed to making any change until you come up with something better. There is nothing false or superficial about it. The lack of a better alternative is not some minor issue you can deal with along the way. It is a fundamental flaw in the republican movement.

Why don't you promote a better solution? The vaccuous rhetoric is coming from the republicans. It is people like you who focus on the the issue of whether the system is laballed a republic or monarchy, who try to label your opposition with silly slogans. All you have to do is come up with something that works better and it wouldn't matter whether it was republic or monarchy.

Why not adopt something that is essentially the same, as I have suggested, ie exactly the same structure, but have the GG of Australia and each of the States sit in a Presiding Council with exactly the same rights as before - including the right of veto? In other words, the head of State is a council, similar to the Swiss Model.

The main objection that many people have an issue with is that of having a foreign head of State as monarch.

There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a totally home-grown government.

Call it the Commonwealth of Australia, exactly as it is now. There is no reason to leave the Commonwealth.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #32 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 4:26pm

muso wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 3:41pm:

The main objection that many people have an issue with is that of having a foreign head of State as monarch.

There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a totally home-grown government.

Call it the Commonwealth of Australia, exactly as it is now. There is no reason to leave the Commonwealth.

Exactly.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #33 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 5:05pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 4:26pm:

muso wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 3:41pm:

The main objection that many people have an issue with is that of having a foreign head of State as monarch.

There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a totally home-grown government.

Call it the Commonwealth of Australia, exactly as it is now. There is no reason to leave the Commonwealth.

Exactly.

Why bother changing the system we have?? It's not like we're 'paying' wages or taxes to the Queen..Basically we're getting a 'Head of State' without having to PAY for a Head of State....

Any change we make will involve an increase in the taxpayer outlay...
We'd need to pay wages to a head of State, which we currently don't...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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freediver

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #34 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 5:47pm

Quote:

There is no such thing as a "better solution" for cultural babies, just more reason to filibuster the debate.

So your solution is to call your opposition babies fillibuster the debate yourself? I have put up plenty of proposals for electoral reform that are big improvements on our current system. The trick is to focus on what really matters - democracy - not old labels and name calling.

Quote:

Why not adopt something that is essentially the same, as I have suggested, ie exactly the same structure, but have the GG of Australia and each of the States sit in a Presiding Council with exactly the same rights as before - including the right of veto? In other words, the head of State is a council, similar to the Swiss Model.

The difficult bit is not what form they take, but how they are appointed or elected. We only need one person to do the job. It's not like they are busy.

Quote:

The main objection that many people have an issue with is that of having a foreign head of State as monarch.

That is also the main advantage of the current system - the disinterest carries with it an independence that you would not get with a home grown option.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #35 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:03pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 5:47pm:

The difficult bit is not what form they take, but how they are appointed or elected. We only need one person to do the job. It's not like they are busy.

A Sovereign Council (say comprising all state governors including perhaps, the Prime Minister) nominates a candidate. The candidate is endorsed by Parliament.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 5:47pm:

That is also the main advantage of the current system - the disinterest carries with it an independence that you would not get with a home grown option.

Cultural infantilism resulting in the conviction that Australians cannot be trusted to do the job.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53257 At my desk.	Re: The Republic Of Australia Reply #36 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:19pm It has nothing to do with whether they are Australian or not. It is just about what works and what doesn't. If chanting 'cultural infantilism' over and over is the best argument you can mount against the current system then you have already lost.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #37 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:37pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:19pm:

It has nothing to do with whether they are Australian or not.

It has everything to do with whether they are Australian or not... That is the main point of Australia's Republic debate. Your argument boils down to "Australians aren't up to it".

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:19pm:

It is just about what works and what doesn't. If chanting 'cultural infantilism' over and over is the best argument you can mount against the current system then you have already lost.

You are a cringing crypto-monarchist whose only suggestions are idiocy in practice (Yes, that's right... your old Queen Kate debate)...

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aikmann4

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #38 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:49pm

Jesus Christ, who cares?

I happen to like the monarchy, cultural ties to the United Kingdom expressed through our institutional symbols, currency and all the rest. They're all very cool traditions and I've always seen Australia as an extension of Britain and an outpost of the British empire, that has assumed many distinctive and interesting elements of its own, but is in part still one -- not dominated by, but part of -- a greater union of Anglo-saxon peoples united under a British monarch. I even wouldn't mind reintegration into a Greater British empire. I hope the monarchy and everything else stays. They're some of the few things left here that actually reminds me that we used to be once a distinctive people with an extremely proud and ancient heritage not only of culture but of blood. If that makes me an infant, good. Better an infant still suckling at my mothers teat than a cultural hermaropdite.

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« Last Edit: Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:59pm by aikmann4 »

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: The Republic Of Australia Reply #39 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:58pm aikmann4 wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:49pm: Jesus Christ, who cares? And you're a regular poster to an Australian politics forum... Aren't you also a nationalist?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #40 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 10:00pm

aikmann4 wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 9:49pm:

Jesus Christ, who cares?

I happen to like the monarchy, cultural ties to the United Kingdom expressed through our institutional symbols, currency and all the rest. They're all very cool traditions and I've always seen Australia as an extension of Britain and an outpost of the British empire, that has assumed many distinctive and interesting elements of its own, but is in part still one -- not dominated by, but part of -- a greater union of Anglo-saxon peoples united under a British monarch. I even wouldn't mind reintegration into a Greater British empire. I hope the monarchy and everything else stays. They're some of the few things left here that actually reminds me that we used to be once a distinctive people with an extremely proud and ancient heritage not only of culture but of blood. If that makes me an infant, good. Better an infant still suckling at my mothers teat than a cultural hermaropdite.

So you do care, you idiot. You're a monarchist. Maintaining the cultural cringe... Yearning for empire, like, say Caliphists...

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aikmann4 Gold Member Offline Posts: 2093 canberra	Re: The Republic Of Australia Reply #41 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 10:01pm Refresh, Helian -- I didn't even finish my post when I made that (accidentally clicked). Don't roll your eyes at me, infant.
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aikmann4

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #42 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 10:07pm

Quote:

Maintaining the cultural cringe... Yearning for empire, like, say Caliphists...

Couldn't give a crap about most imperial expansion; waste of money and time. I'm mostly pragmatic, not a lunatic. I just support political unity for settled former imperial nations; as in Australia, Canada and New Zealand. I'm just practical enough to know that this is impossible and an Australian republic or disconnection from the United Kingdom is inevitable, hence why I really don't care about talking about it.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #43 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 10:11pm

aikmann4 wrote on Jul 4^th, 2010 at 10:07pm:

Quote:

Maintaining the cultural cringe... Yearning for empire, like, say Caliphists...

Couldn't give a crap about most imperial expansion; waste of money and time. I'm mostly pragmatic, not a lunatic. I just support political unity for settled former imperial nations; as in Australia, Canada and New Zealand. I'm just practical enough to know that this is impossible and an Australian republic or disconnection from the United Kingdom is inevitable, hence why I really don't care about talking about it.

Friendship with the UK will not end with the monarchy in Australia... Nor will the affections of those Australians who maintain close personal ties with Britain.

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aikmann4

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Re: The Republic Of Australia
Reply #44 - Jul 4^th, 2010 at 10:16pm

I meant total political disconnection (which I understand is mostly ceremonial in nature anyway). I like those ceremonial traditions. I like having the Queen on our currency. I like the pomp and splendour of monarchies and royality. I don't care if these aren't "good reasons". I've never seen anybody arguing for republic that have had good reasons either.

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