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Ban the Burqa (Read 75740 times)
Soren
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #60 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:49pm
 
Even if each burqa wearer was making a free personal choice, choices have context and meaning.

In this society, the meaning of the burqa/niqab is segregation, acceptance of religiously sanctioned second-class status. If they really freely choose to demonstrate, in the public sphere,  their acceptance of inferiority, then in this society I am free to oblige them and TREAT them as second class. I am not a friggin' beduin in the Sahara, so I don't observe their tribal social customs in this society and I certinly owe them no respect and don't have to pretend that I respect their 'freely' chosen self-abnegation. If they have so much self-contempt, I can at least do them the service of going along and also have contempt for them.
Not everyone in the Star Wars bar scene is owed respect.
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #61 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:53pm
 
Quote:
In this society, the meaning of the burqa/niqab is segregation, acceptance of religiously sanctioned second-class status


No, that's what it means to you.

Quote:
I am free to oblige them and TREAT them as second class


How? By denying them their right to dress how they like?

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aikmann4
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #62 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:00am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.


At least, by his reasoning, the loss of freedom by having to don the burqa is larger than the loss of freedom that would follow its prohibition. He has other considerations too, of course.

I think you all know where I stand on this matter. I'm indifferent to Islam. I have never read the Qu'ran (and I'll wager not one other person on this forum has either) so when people say that Muslims do this and that because of the laws inherent in the Qu'ran I have no idea whether or not they're being honest. The importation of the Mohammedians and the stock peoples of Islam is just not a good thing for the West in terms of our own interests, regardless of what the Qu'ran says. It's going to be an absolute disaster in Europe. My position is simple. I'm not interested in integrating them. Just leave us alone, please.
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #63 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:08am
 
Quote:
the loss of freedom by having to don the burqa is larger than the loss of freedom following its prohibition.


It depends on your perspective. To us maybe. To burqa wearing Australians...perhaps not so much.

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aikmann4
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #64 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:10am
 
I wasn't speaking for myself. I'm fairly certain one of the major reasons why people object to the burqa is because they feel that the women who wear it are not actually making a personal choice regarding their decision to do so.

I don't necessarily endorse this view.
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Soren
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #65 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:17am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:53pm:
Quote:
In this society, the meaning of the burqa/niqab is segregation, acceptance of religiously sanctioned second-class status


No, that's what it means to you.

Quote:
I am free to oblige them and TREAT them as second class


How? By denying them their right to dress how they like?



No - by having as much contempt for them as they parade for themselves. That is the meaning of the burqa for them: look at me, I am muslim woman,  living the vida korana, half a man, invisible, hear me roar - well, scarp that last bit, actually.

There are no religious reason for face covering in this country. There are only political reasons for it. The militantly-minded ones who peddle the 'I'm freely chosing the burqa' freely chose to express their self-exclusion, self-segregattion from this society. They are freely choosing to express their diapproval for women's right, for equality, for meritocracy. They are 'freely' chosing to oppose everything about human relations in this society.

If you want to be pius, cover your hair. If you want to be militantly stupid, hostile and offensive to the society around you, cover your face.




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aikmann4
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #66 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:21am
 
While a little off topic, I am reminded greatly of that Theodore Dalrymple classic: Civility Wears a Hat.

Quote:
WHY do men behave so badly nowadays? I know that the question has been asked for more than 2500 years, but it just so happens that, this time, it is entirely apposite. The explanation came to me a few months ago in a blinding flash of illumination: the hat. To the hat, or rather to the lack of one, is to be traced the source of all our ill-deportment.Bare heads or heads accoutred in the wrong kind of headgear cause our want of self-respect and therefore our want of respect for others. What we need, therefore, is more hats: proper ones, from cloth caps to trilbies, homburgs, bowlers and toppers.

This revelation came to me in a peculiar way. For years I have bought Victorian era jewellery from a Birmingham, England, jeweller, David Johnson, and he happened to invite me one day to the opening of the new premises of the hat shop he had inherited from his mother, a milliner for more than 60 years. Johnson, developing the family tradition, had decided to branch out into men's hats.

Reflecting on hats, it suddenly occurred to me how much more difficult it was to behave badly in a proper hat and how much easier to be polite in one. I recalled the days of my childhood during which most men wore a hat and I remembered that my father, who was not always the most considerate of men, never failed, in a gesture of genuine politeness, to raise his hat to someone whom he knew. Indeed, the etiquette of hats was drummed into me as a child as being a stage in the taming of the natural savage.

Johnson, too, remembered the age of hats, a gentler age than our own, when men would remove them to acknowledge a passing hearse. A hat, like a cane, gives dignity to a man's bearing, but at the same time affords him the opportunity to practise a little ceremonial. This ceremonial is by definition the recognition of the right of others to due consideration.

The wrong kind of headgear, however, conveys another message entirely. A baseball cap is almost incompatible with an impression of dignity or intelligence and those whose peaks are pulled over the eyes intimidate, as they are no doubt intended to intimidate. The same is true of the hoods that young men pull over their heads and the woollen beanies that cling to their shaven scalps. No ceremonial or recognition of others is possible with this kind of headgear.

Of course, everything depends on cultural context. At one time Hitler wore proper hats (though he seems to have abandoned them as soon as he attained absolute power), as did Chicago gangsters and the politburo of the Soviet Union when it assembled on top of Lenin's mausoleum. Proper hats are thus no guarantee of moral rectitude.

Yet the ethical and social significance of hats has been widely acknowledged. Kemal Ataturk forbade the fez and Gamal Abdel Nasser the tarboosh. The point is not whether they were right to do so but that they believed, by instinct no doubt, that what people put on their heads affected the way they behaved and thought about the world.

Ataturk and Nasser were revolutionaries and they despised their own societies as they had come down to them; they thought that nothing would change until people adopted different headgear, as Peter the Great thought that Russia would remain Muscovy until the upper classes donned European dress.

Communist leaders such as Mao Zedong, Kim Jong-il and Nicolae Ceausescu all affected the workman's cloth cap, though of a subtly different design from real workmen's caps, for, like Princess Diana, they wanted to be simultaneously of the people and completely, metaphysically distinct from them.

Sese Seko Mobutu wore headwear made of leopard skin to imply power and prowess as well as an ability to pounce suddenly and unexpectedly, as leopards do. Leopards are often invisible to their prey until it is too late for them to escape and in Zaire it was widely believed that Mobutu had the power to make himself invisible.

Irrespective of the meaning of proper hats in times gone by, we always live in our own social and cultural context, and the fact is that certain kinds of hats do convey civility and others convey incivility. If you doubt it, conduct a little thought experiment.

You are walking down a dark street at night and a man approaches you wearing a proper hat. Do you fear him as much as you would a man who is wearing a hood or a baseball cap that covers his brow and eyes?

We have become browbeaten by the absurd, dangerous and uncivilised doctrine that if some instances of discrimination are morally reprehensible, all instances of discrimination are morally reprehensible.

A pub in Shropshire recently banned customers from wearing farmer's caps as well as the baseball caps, beanies and hoods that had so often spelled violent trouble, though no one expects trouble from someone wearing a farmer's cap. The fear of being called discriminatory paralyses sensible judgment.

It would be a most interesting study to establish whether an aggressive, hood-wearing young man became less aggressive once shorn of his hood. I suspect that he would.

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aikmann4
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #67 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:23am
 
Quote:
It may be, of course, that nice men wear hats and nasty men wear hoods. Men wear what is appropriate to their character and according to the message they wish to convey (solicitors wear pinstripes, barristers chalk stripes). The staff of Johnson's shop told me that purchasers of men's hats are invariably polite and charming, which is why they want a hat in the first place. Jamaican men who wear such hats are of the church-going rather than the cannabis and street robbery class.

That civil men should wear hats is much less interesting than if the wearing of hats should make men civil, for this would suggest that the encouragement of hat-wearing might lead to improved levels of public civility. It ought not to be beyond the resources of social psychology to provide experimental evidence as to whether my theory is correct, but it is sometimes necessary in times of crisis to act in advance of the evidence.

Practically all government reforms are carried out with a complete absence of evidence as to whether they will work and on much less plausible hypotheses than mine: for example, that bloated bureaucracies have the public interest at heart and want to solve the problems that have called them into being and are their raison d'etre.

It should not be beyond the wit of the Government to promote the wearing of hats by fiscal and other means. After all, it is constantly pulling legislative levers and pressing fiscal buttons. It could be the beginning of a long overdue cultural counter-revolution.


Obviously the burqa represents something completely different and elevated from the poor dress habits of most people today and thus it would be a mismatched analogy to compare the two, but Dalrymple is right and slobbery and comfort in exchange for unconcern for one's personal aesthetic has prevailed in Western society. Disgusting..

Maybe irrelevant, but it's a great article.
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Soren
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #68 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:27am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.



Oh, lovely. It's all personal choice, innit?

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #69 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 4:54am
 

I will broach no friendship, I will offer neither solace or joy, for I am a ghost who walks among you, not free to be a complete person in my own right outside the boundaries of my own home, and my immediate family, I am a strange stranger, and will forever remain so, for you will never know my face, you will never know my smile, you will not see my grief or tears, for I am alone, as my mask not only locks others out of my life, it also locks me in.
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muso
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #70 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:11am
 
Except that in most cases, it's self imposed. Apart from that, the people who have most influence are generally the mothers. 

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #71 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:43am
 
Soren wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:27am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.



Oh, lovely. It's all personal choice, innit?

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.



Yes - Muslim doctors and nurses are exempt from hygeine regulations in hospitals. They don't have to scrub or wash. Terrible! I think their religion prevents them from washing - unless its to pray to their pagan god, of course. They wash then. That's because they fear the wrath of their god.

Let me tell you this: if you see a swarthy nurse or doctor in a hospital, stay well away from them. They spread germs.

And if you see a swarthy passenger in an airport, run a mile.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #72 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:53am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:43am:
Soren wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:27am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.



Oh, lovely. It's all personal choice, innit?

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.



Yes - Muslim doctors and nurses are exempt from hygeine regulations in hospitals. They don't have to scrub or wash. Terrible! I think their religion prevents them from washing - unless its to pray to their pagan god, of course. They wash then. That's because they fear the wrath of their god.

Let me tell you this: if you see a swarthy nurse or doctor in a hospital, stay well away from them. They spread germs.

And if you see a swarthy passenger in an airport, run a mile.


So did you actually say anything useful here, like counter Soren's claim or is it just your usual nonsense. Then extend your own ramblings to airport lounges??? Huh

Asking, not defending Soren's claim.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #73 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:54am
 
Quote:
Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.



If you wish to maintain some credibility, I suggest you check your information before posting it. The following is from the Guidance on Uniform and Workwear Policies for NHS Employers.

Quote:
Where, for religious reasons, members of staff wish to cover their forearms or wear a bracelet when not engaged in patient care, ensure that sleeves or bracelets can be pushed up the arm and secured in place for hand washing and direct patient care activity.

•Uniforms may include provision for sleeves that can be full length when staff are not engaged in direct patient care activity.
•Uniforms can have three-quarter length sleeves.
• Any full or three-quarter length sleeves must not be loose or dangling. They must be able to be rolled or pulled back and kept securely in place during hand-washing and direct patient care activity.
•Disposable over-sleeves, elasticated at the elbow and wrist, may be used but must be put on and discarded in exactly the same way as disposable gloves.
•Strict procedures for washing hands and wrists must still be observed.








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Soren
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #74 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:04pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:54am:
If you wish to maintain some credibility, I suggest you check your information before posting it.



I did, and so did The Daily Telegraph (UK):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7576357/Muslim-staff-escape-NHS-hygiene-rule.html

Derek Butler, chairman of MRSA Action UK, said: "My worry is that allowing some medics to use disposable sleeves you compromise patient safety because unless you change the sleeves between each patient, you spread bacteria.



"MRSA" stands for Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus aureus



Welcome to MRSA Action UK

Our Mission Statement

The mission of MRSA Action UK is to raise public awareness and to influence Government and healthcare providers in the fight to prevent MRSA and all healthcare infections.
http://www.mrsaactionuk.net/


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