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mozzaok

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #270 - Jul 5^th, 2010 at 10:30pm

Quote:

You have it wrong. It works like this - your freedom extends until you start infringing on someone else's freedom. Maybe your argument would make sense if it was about taking your shoes off at the airport to help them screen for terrorists, because terrorists actually scare people. Women in veils do not. They are merely associated with soething that scares you. As far as arguments for taking people's freedom away go, it is pretty pissweak.

FD

Pissweak?
What is pissweak is seeing idiotic arguments defending a strangers right to behave strangely in our land, for their is no greater symbol of separation from our society than masking your identity from it.

So many adults are caught up in trying to appear "tolerant" of differences, that they have lost the ability to discern when those differences are having a negative, and divisive effect upon our community standards.

Take your young kids down to Brunswick, and see how they react when they turn around and see three women dressed in strange clothes that hide their faces, standing behind them.
You know what their reaction is, because you know that kids are honest, and you know that they will not be influenced to invent fanciful reasons to try and explain away what is a rational and reasonable reaction to confronting someone in a mask.
The reaction is unease, a little fear, a sense of unease and bewilderment about why someone would hide their ability to be able to smile back at a child, like all decent humans normally do.

Why on earth should we even contemplate not standing up for the openness of our society, before the number of people seeking to mask up in public increases.

I have already challenged the namby pamby PC brigaders to mask up for a day, and see how that effects your interaction with other people, but to do that would require a degree of honesty they seem to be happy to forgo in the name of being PC.

Wearing masks in public is not the australian way, unless you count ned kelly, and you are planning on having a shootout with the police, so we should put a stop to it, wearing masks is offensive, and wrong.

We have the right to our freedom to want our culture respected FD, and masking up in public is absolutely disrespectful to australia's way of life.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Ban the Burqa Reply #271 - Jul 5^th, 2010 at 10:57pm FD and Annie - what is the differenc between going completely covered up and completely naked, freedom of choice and tolerance-wise? By your reconing, if someone choses to go around completely naked, that's nobody's business since noone is being physicaly attacked or required to also go around naked.
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Soren

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #272 - Jul 5^th, 2010 at 11:40pm

Some actions, we believe, are permissible in private but not in public. Undressing is one of them. And the concept of decency is absolutely essential to defining the distinction between the permissible and the impermissible. There is nothing indecent about the act of undressing in private - not, at least, in the normal circumstances in which this act occurs. There is nothing indecent about the love-making of husband and wife in private. But when these acts are put on display they take on another character. They lose their innocence; they become an affront, a challenge and an invitation to states of mind that have no place in the public sphere, and no place in the private sphere either - voyeuristic states which most people regard as repugnant, without necessarily overcoming thereby the temptation to indulge in them.

Now it is here that we begin to see the significance of the word "public" in the phrase "public morality". The public sphere has its own moral norms. There are things which, while innocent enough in private, lose their innocence when put on display. They lose their innocence because they invade the emotions and the peace of mind of those who observe them, upsetting the delicate balance on which the routines of society depend. Obscenity is the paradigm case of this - though one that it is increasingly difficult to see for what it is, namely, as an invasion not only of the public sphere, but also of the privacy of those who inhabit it. The obscene performance is one that puts something private on public display. It breaks through the barrier between public and private, violating the sense of decorum without which people cannot maintain the objectivity and distance from each other on which the public sphere depends.

In our daily lives we make a radical distinction between the rules that govern our intimacies and those that govern our posture towards those with whom we are not intimate. The rules of the public sphere exist to maintain the kind of distance that makes it possible to live without existential involvements, to negotiate our path through the world of strangers with minimum entanglements and always by negotiation and consent. These rules must be anchored in law if they are not to be exploited by the predators and egoists, who will use them to their own advantage.

http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/critique-april-09-morality-and-public-space-roger...

These arguments, extensively developed by Scruton, have a bearing on the ostentation that is face covering in the West. In the West, the burqa and the niqab are invasions of the public space, as offensive as obscenity.

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aikmann4

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #273 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 3:35am

Fair enough, Freediver. You have the better of me here, though I have always thought and made the point frequently that it's best if immigration from the Islamic world is stopped. Intolerant behavior towards those that engage in the act of concealing their face in a community where it is common practice to do the opposite is inevitable. All of these problems are things which we, from the standpoint of our interests, can simply do without.

If the majority of Australians are indifferent towards the Burqa, perhaps you could explain these poll results?

Quote:

.

MOST voters favour a ban on Muslim women wearing the burqa in public, according to an opinion survey by the polling group UMR Research.

The national survey of 1000 people of voting age earlier this month found that 59 per cent supported a ban on the full face and body veil in public places.

However, 33 per cent of UMR's respondents said they opposed a ban and the remaining 8 per cent were unsure.

UMR is the pollster for the federal Labor Party, although the survey on the burqa was carried out as part of its wider opinion research program rather than being commissioned by the ALP.

The pollster's managing director, John Utting, said the survey found strong support for banning the full face and body veil, especially among men and older people. UMR's results showed that 63 per cent of men surveyed would support a ban compared with 55 per cent of women.

Maybe there's a selection bias here; I'm not suggesting that these polls are certainly representative samples. But they do reflect the general impression I've had of how regular Australians I've encountered feel about this issue. I think most Australians do not like the Burqa and even the majoirty want it outlawed. In the United Kingdom, it is this way as well:

Quote:

Significant majorities of Britons support bans on the burqa and niqab, women's garments that fully cover the body and face respectively, a poll revealed.

According to an Angus Reid Public Opinion poll, there is less support for a ban on the hijab in the UK, the headscarf that covers Muslim women's hair, UPI reported.

At least two-thirds of 2,001 respondents said they support bans on the burqa and niqab, with 72 percent wanting the burqa banned in all public places and 66 percent the niqab.

Both garments cover the entire body, including a net veil over the eyes.

A larger percentage, 79 percent, would support forbidding women from wearing burqas at schools and universities and in airports, while 75 percent would ban the niqab at schools and 85 percent in airports.

However, 75 percent say there should be no public bans on hijabs.

If the hijab elicits a less condemning response than the Burqa, perhaps it is not just the negative association of the Burqa with Islam that causes many to react negatively to it, as the hijab should be expected to contain the same negative association. If so many are calling for the outlawing of the Burqa, perhaps there is some aspect about that garment that truly does make uncomfortable and uneasy... the fact that the face is covered.

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« Last Edit: Jul 6^th, 2010 at 7:27am by aikmann4 »

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #274 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 10:25am

I think that once Islamic women are 'De-Culturalised' (and will the other Religions be so too, like the Brethren women and their scarfs and plain clothes?), by Australians who serve a pro-Jewish USA that thinks that liberating Islamic women is justified by their highest of divorce rates in the world.
You will see the Islamic as a 'people' rather than a culture, even as an Individual, suddenly shine from such adversity in a far away land that can't even get its own poo together and still expresses a 3rd rate 'hand-me-down' fashion from the USA/UK.
Check out the Melbourne Cup, the women there have to get hammered on champagne to get laid because they all dress like the Queen Mother Grin

I think Australia has become a nation of WHINGERS that just lay in the boot from the side when the USA/UK get into a fight with people who do not live up to 'their' expectations.

Lead by example Australia ...put out a suitable Fashion for the Islamic women, without compromising their Religion.

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Soren

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #275 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 3:36pm

Chicago woman Nour Hadid faces a first-degree murder charge following the beating death of her two-year-old niece. But according to her husband, an even graver crime has been committed:

The police booking photo of alleged child killer Nour Hadid released Tuesday is an “insult against our religion,” says Hadid’s husband, Alaeddin.

Orland Park police detectives say the 26-year-old Muslim woman was treated as any other suspect in a murder probe would be, and they did not intend to humiliate her when they photographed her Sunday without her headscarf and wearing only a skimpy top.

Alaeddin claims police are “really going to be in big trouble” for releasing scarfless images to the press:

“It is against our religion; we do not do this in our culture,” Alaeddin said.

“People have been calling me about this all day

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/commen...

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mozzaok

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #276 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 7:16pm

A spokesman for a minority religious group today spoke out against the bigoted public stance on what they choose to wear in public.

Mr Iva Bigun, a committed "Flashist" spoke of the trauma of having people try and tell him he must cover his penis when he visits the local state primary school, "he said, " I hold a deep personal belief that my divine right to waggle my willy in public is nobody's business but my own.
I do not threaten anyone, or hurt anyone, so why is society so determined to tell me how I should dress in public, it is an outrage."

Mr Bigun got a rousing welcome at the local Islamic school, where they said that they also shared his desire to have the state butt out of people's personal dress choices, and were proud to hide their womens' faces next his his exposed willy.
"I have heard all the arguments of those who say it is not how we want our culture to be, but that is just bigoted small mindedness, and as long as I do not hurt anyone why on earth should anyone care.
Have you looked at the statistics? No Flashists have ever been charged with robbing a bank with their willys out, so that shows how misplaced the public's concern really is, when all we are asking is the right to waggle our willys in peace, it is about our personal rights and freedoms, and those principles are far too important to ignore because a few people feel "uncomfortable" looking at a strangers willy in public. I say they need to broaden their outlook, and try to be more tolerant of other standards than their own"

When the local member spoke to Iva Bigun, he said, "we need more clear thinking people like you to show us how to stand up against bigotry."

"Well my member is standing up right now." replied Mr Bigun.

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freediver

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #277 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 7:25pm

This seems to be boilding down to a question of what really matters and what Australian culture is all about. On the one hand, we have those who think it is important to be able to speak your mind, even to say something you might not like. On the other we have those who think it is more important that what we say does not bother the old fashioned members of our society. On the one hand, we have those who think it is important to be able to choose what to wear. On the other, we have those who think it is more important that people fit in and choose the same thing, even if it means they have no choice. I am truly embarrassed to see so many Australians making the wrong choice, some even being such hypocrits as to pretend they are defending our freedom.

Quote:

Nobody is born with burqa or niqab so wearing it is not an inalienable right, just like having a bone through your nose isn't

But having a bone through your nose is a basic human right. It is also perfectly legal in Australia. Yet I bet if some African guy wearing one blew up the harbour bridge, you would find some silly reason why it is an affront to public morality.

No-one is born able to speak, yet freedom of speech is a fundamental human right.

Quote:

If Allah wanted women to cover their faces he would have created them with a skin flap growing from their hairline, a kind of facial hymen. But no, face covering by burqa or niqab is a choice, insofar as one has any choice under Islam.

Sorren, all freedom is about choice. That's what freedom is.
Quote:

As a choice, it has no special claim to respect.

But this isn't about respect is it? No-one is demanding you respect the choices these women make. It is about freedom, not respect - a freedom some are foolish enough to want to deny for no good reason.

Quote:

It is not a choice for an intrinsic, supra-social, transcedent good that most of us recognise as such.

That is not what freedom is. It would not be freedom if we had to justify our choices according to your (or anybody's) definition of an intrinsic, supra social, transcendant good. You seem to have a bit of trouble grasping what freedom is, don't you Soren?

Quote:

Paradoxically, one of such central ethical notions in this society is individual freeedom of choice, a notion Islam totally rejects.

The only paradox here is that you defend that freedom while at the same time rejecting it in favour of your busy-body 'supra social good'.

Quote:

So while Muslim women can claim the right to cover their faces on the the grounds of our freedoms, they cannot also thereby deny our freedom not to respect them, not to ridicule them.

So you are not in favour of banning the burqa?

Quote:

Yet to all the useful idiots, the challenge is to continue to defend Islam on grounds Islam rejects.

This is not about defending Islam. This is about defending the right of a woman (or a man for that matter) to choose what to wear, without interfering men fretting about what signals they can read into those choices and project onto the women.

Quote:

What is pissweak is seeing idiotic arguments defending a strangers right to behave strangely in our land

That is not pissweak. That is what our soldiers fought and died for. They did not die so that some idiot could throw those rights away and start telling Australian citizens what they can and cannot wear. To this day, people still die in defending those freedoms. By rejecting it, you signal that you spit in the face of the freedoms they died for. You signal that you, not these Muslim women, reject what Australia stands for and place yourself outside of Australian society.
Quote:

for their is no greater symbol of separation from our society than masking your identity from it

Australian citizens have every right to choose a separate path for themselves, especially over something as petty as clothing. It is what makes Australia such a great country.

Quote:

So many adults are caught up in trying to appear "tolerant" of differences, that they have lost the ability to discern when those differences are having a negative, and divisive effect upon our community standards.

Trust me Mozz, most Australians are more than capable of recognising which differences have a negative effect on our society, which is why most Australians recognise that it is not a rejection of our dress standards, but a rejection of our fundamental rights and freedoms that is the great threat to our values.

Quote:

Take your young kids down to Brunswick, and see how they react when they turn around and see three women dressed in strange clothes that hide their faces, standing behind them.
You know what their reaction is, because you know that kids are honest, and you know that they will not be influenced to invent fanciful reasons to try and explain away what is a rational and reasonable reaction to confronting someone in a mask.

I have seen a child's reaction up close and personal. It is certainly not a reaction of fear or anything else we need to concern ourselves with. Not that I would let the reaction of our child dictate which freedoms we take away from people, especially if they are being lead by an adult who wets his pants every time a strong religious woman walks by.

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freediver

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #278 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 7:30pm

Quote:

Why on earth should we even contemplate not standing up for the openness of our society

Because freedom comes first, freedom from prying busybodies, freedom to close the door, freedom to turn away and reject you facade of friendship.

Quote:

FD and Annie - what is the differenc between going completely covered up and completely naked, freedom of choice and tolerance-wise?

There is none. Our aversion to public nudity is also a sign of intolerance. In this respect, mainland European culture is far better than Australian culture that still clings to it's Victorian baggage. Of course, another big difference is the risks associatred with skin cancer, but that does not require banning, as personal choice is more important.

Quote:

Some actions, we believe, are permissible in private but not in public. Undressing is one of them.

Despite our Victorian baggage, there are still plenty of places and situations where it is acceptable to nude up.

Quote:

Now it is here that we begin to see the significance of the word "public" in the phrase "public morality".

There is no end to the freedoms certain people would take away in the name of public morality. Basically, they would happily use it to deny others the right to do anything they feel uncomfortable with. It is a very slippery slope and one without any rational place to draw the line, only different measures of different people's intolerance and willingness to forgo freedom in the name of conformity. There is no end to intolerance. It is a cancer on your society.

Until terrorism came along, no-one considered wearing too much clothing to be an affront to public morality. This notion of public morality shifts with the wind.

Quote:

Fair enough, Freediver. You have the better of me here, though I have always thought and made the point frequently that it's best if immigration from the Islamic world is stopped.

I believe similar things, but I would not generalise it to the Islamic world. Anyone who opposes freedom, democracy etc, should be barred immigration, no matter what ideology leads them down that path. If they reject freedom in the name of some vague and slippery notion of supra-social good, they should also be barred entry. I certainly would not reject an immigration application based on dress standards.

Quote:

Intolerant behavior towards those that engage in the act of concealing their face in a community where it is common practice to do the opposite is inevitable.

People used to say the same about women going swimming at the beach. Then they said the same about women going swimming in anything but a heavy woollen Islamic style body suit. This sillyness went right on to the bikini, though fortunately we took the last step without too much of a public outcrry. Why? Because intolerant behaviour is never inevitable.

Quote:

If the majority of Australians are indifferent towards the Burqa, perhaps you could explain these poll results?

Simple. Sampling bias.

Quote:

Maybe there's a selection bias here; I'm not suggesting that these polls are certainly representative samples. But they do reflect the general impression I've had of how regular Australians I've encountered feel about this issue.

Did you ask them whether they feel uneasy around the unfamiliar. Or did you ask them whether we should deny women the right to choose what to wear? Or did you read what you want into ambiguous comments?

Quote:

I think most Australians do not like the Burqa and even the majoirty want it outlawed.

There are plenty of choices people make that I don't like. That is how you distuinguish real freedom from pretend freedom.

Quote:

If the hijab elicits a less condemning response than the Burqa, perhaps it is not just the negative association of the Burqa with Islam that causes many to react negatively to it, as the hijab should be expected to contain the same negative association. If so many are calling for the outlawing of the Burqa, perhaps there is some aspect about that garment that truly does make uncomfortable and uneasy... the fact that the face is covered.

This is exactly the same argument that our Victorian baggage handlers made about women wearing revealing clothing.

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mozzaok

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #279 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 8:09pm

Mr Bigun thanks you for your support FD, and promises to get some of those little blue pills so he can stand to attention all day to mark his gratitude.
He just needs to know where you work so he can stand at the door and greet people with a smile, though some may call it a tumescent grin.

At least you will have somewhere to hang the flag to honour all those diggers that fought for his right to waggle in public, god bless australia, home of the free, to waggle, and mask up.

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Soren

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #280 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 8:17pm

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2010 at 7:25pm:

Quote:

As a choice, it has no special claim to respect.

But this isn't about respect is it? No-one is demanding you respect the choices these women make. It is about freedom, not respect - a freedom some are foolish enough to want to deny for no good reason.

Au contraire. it IS about respect since your notions of freedom are despised by the religion that is signified by the burqa.

The burqa is not a freedom of choice issue for a muslim woman. You may wish to think of it in those terms - or rather, you may be completly unable to think of it in any other terms - but that does not mean it is a freedom of choice issue for her. It is a respect issue for her, your respect of her religion.

A Muslim woman who reportedly accused a Sydney police officer of racism has been charged with making a false statement.
The woman was stopped by police for a random breath test on June 7.

She later told media the officer who pulled her over had tried to remove her head-dress, which conceals almost her entire face.

The woman had made numerous other complaints in a sworn statutory declaration.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/charge-over-veil-claim/story-e6frg6n...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #281 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 8:31pm

Quote:

Au contraire. it IS about respect since your notions of freedom are despised by the religion that is signified by the burqa.

You are not trying to ban the religion. You are trying to ban a symbol of it. If you want to take away people's freedom of religion, you should say so. Not pretend this is about public morality or invent other absurd justifications. Don't you think it is a rather petty way to get at the religion?

I could understand you getting upset about people defending the right of others to take away their rights. But I don't understand why you would ban what you admit is merely a symbol.

If you object to the attempts by some Muslims to take away our freedom, the rational response is to defend those freedoms. The irrational response is to take them away.

Quote:

The burqa is not a freedom of choice issue for a muslim woman.

It is if you try to ban it.

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Soren

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #282 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 8:32pm

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2010 at 7:25pm:

Quote:

Paradoxically, one of such central ethical notions in this society is individual freeedom of choice, a notion Islam totally rejects.

The only paradox here is that you defend that freedom while at the same time rejecting it in favour of your busy-body 'supra social good'.

I was talking about no intrinsic respect for the burqa. You know, it's not Allah's will.

Quote:

So while Muslim women can claim the right to cover their faces on the the grounds of our freedoms, they cannot also thereby deny our freedom not to respect them, not to ridicule them.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2010 at 7:25pm:

So you are not in favour of banning the burqa?

I am in favour of not accommodating it just like we do not accommodate nudists on our streets. There is no diffrence as far as body un/covering is concerned. there is a huge difference in meaning though (see below).

Quote:

Yet to all the useful idiots, the challenge is to continue to defend Islam on grounds Islam rejects.

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2010 at 7:25pm:

This is not about defending Islam. This is about defending the right of a woman (or a man for that matter) to choose what to wear, without interfering men fretting about what signals they can read into those choices and project onto the women.

This is about nothing else but defending Islam's 'freedom' to exclude itself from the agreed public sphere.

Here's Hirshi Ali, making a good point:

"I think to demand to cover your face in a public place in an era of terrorism is preposterous. For the French government, and other governments, to say, “You can wear whatever you like, but we would like to see your face”—I think that’s reasonable. I’m not talking about the face covering as a manifestation of religion, just in terms of safety. Every time I go through an airport I have to remove my shoes, my belt, my coat. After the attempted underwear bombing in the name of Islam, we have to go through a machine that scans us. So for someone to come around from that religion and say, “I demand that I cover myself”—it’s unreal."
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/05/21/why-christians-should-try-to-convert-muslims/

We want to see your face in our public space - that is the point and that is eminently reasonable. To be blind to that and to argue about freedom of choice as if this was about what kind of facinator you are wearing on Melbourne Cup day takes a particular kind of willful, practiced blindness.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #283 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 8:39pm

Quote:

I am in favour of not accommodating it

What is that? Weasel words? Say what you mean Soren. Can Muslim women claim the right to cover their faces on the the grounds of our freedoms?

Quote:

This is about nothing else but defending Islam's exclusion of itel from the agreed public sphere.

You have stopped making sense Soren. It is about defending the right of women to choose what to wear. You cannot deny people rights without denying those rights to yourself. All people have the right to cover their face in public. I am defending this right on behalf of all Australians, not just Muslims. Remember, it is you who keeps insisting that the burqa must only be viewed as a symbol of Islam and not as a clothing choice. It is me who insists this is about freedom. Don't get it backwards.

Quote:

I think to demand to cover your face in a public place in an era of terrorism is preposterous.

How is the burqa linked to terrorism? Does Osama bin Laden wear a burqa? Or are we back to mere symbology? You want to ban it because you asssociate it with terrorism?

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Soren

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #284 - Jul 6^th, 2010 at 8:43pm

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2010 at 8:31pm:

Quote:

Au contraire. it IS about respect since your notions of freedom are despised by the religion that is signified by the burqa.

You are not trying to ban the religion. You are trying to ban a symbol of it. If you want to take away people's freedom of religion, you should say so. Not pretend this is about public morality or invent other absurd justifications. Don't you think it is a rather petty way to get at the religion?

I could understand you getting upset about people defending the right of others to take away their rights. But I don't understand why you would ban what you admit is merely a symbol.

If you object to the attempts by some Muslims to take away our freedom, the rational response is to defend those freedoms. The irrational response is to take them away.

Quote:

The burqa is not a freedom of choice issue for a muslim woman.

It is if you try to ban it.

It is not about Islam, it is about the non-Islamic public space.
I have no concern with how people dress in mecca or tehran. THAT is one of my busness.

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