Gandalf, are you able to make any specific criticisms of Abu's interpretation of Islam? Or do you just trash him vaguely because you know he is a lost cause, but then look for any way to defend him on the details? If you really do "detest everything he stands for", why do you automatically leap to his defence on something as (relatively) innocuous as Islamic etiquette, to the point of baselessly accusing people of lying over something you are obviously unaware of?

Also, if you're going to quote old debates with Abu, it might help to post ones where he doesn't royally hand you your bottom.

John Smith wrote on Oct 17^th, 2017 at 9:50am:


This thread is a masterclass in someone spending pages (in this case 8) not able or not willing to understand a fairly simple and patiently articulated point.

Still, it is refreshing to read a less sneering and less obnoxious FD. I guess the transformation into the sad caricature he is now was fairly gradual.

Abu was great at this. According to him, every problem faced by backwards Muslim countries had nothing to do with Islam or backwards Muslims doing backwards things.

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Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation. Doesn't mean we for instance won't name the perpetrators of clear agressions against us, but is that really blaming? I don't think so.

In fact the Islamic texts are full of statements which clearly show that the one who does not find good in this world should blame his own self.

"Whoever finds some good, let him praise Allah, and whoever finds other than that, let him blame his own self"

However this has nothing to do with for instance recognising Sharon as the instigator of the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, or the Irgun and Stern gangs for the numerous massacres and ethnic cleansing that occured during the occupation of Palestinian villages, or the USA of invading Muslim countries and supplying Israel with weapons to fire on Muslim civilians constantly... We blame ourselves for our clear failure to prevent it, but recognising the aggressor is not blaming them.

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As I mentioned, the West is not to blame. as a Muslim, I cannot claim that it wasn't my fault the Muslims in Palestine for instance were ethnically  cleansed, it was the fault of the British/Zionists. This excuse will avail me nothing on the day of judgement. However, that's different to identifying the perpetrator of crimes. As an example, the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate, is the fault of the Muslims for becoming weak and allowing it to happen. The West tried for centuries and could not enter the Muslim lands, and only entered when we permitted them, through our weak faith and lack of political understanding and military resolve.

Your position on this issue is skewed. In effect you're trying to say that Sharon for instance is not responsible for the crimes he committed against the Muslims, or that the USA or the USSR were not responsible for their invasions of Afghanistan and countless other Muslim lands. You have confused apportioning blame for a failure, and recognising the perpetrator of an atrocity. They are two completely different issues.

Normally my jaw would drop hearing someone accuse someone of saying literally the exact opposite of what they very clearly and explicitly said.

But then this is FD...

Sure. Let's start with quoting what I actually said. Or would you prefer to focus on your lies about what I said? Or your lies about the Koran? Are Muslims supposed to lie about the Koran Gandalf? If caught out in an unintentional lie, are they supposed to furiously change the topic in the hope that no-one notices?

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uncanny

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He did not blame the backwardness of Muslim countries on backwards Muslims doing backwards things. He blamed it on their weak faith and lack of military resolve. That is, he blamed it on them not being backwards enough. If they had only continued to raid Europe and Africa for sex slaves and fought of the western intervention aimed at putting an end to this, everything would be fine.

Gandalf for example blames the wealth of western countries and the poverty of African and middle eastern countries on the wealth stolen from them by the west. He cannot conceive that the wealth was created internally via the economic freedoms that westerners won for themselves, and the poverty of Muslim nations is due to the Islamic oppression. Instead, he thinks that the economic freedoms enjoyed by the west are little luxuries we can only afford because we are stealing so much from the tinpot dictatorships.