Australian Politics Forum - first past the post voting

tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #30 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 7:26pm

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 7:11pm:

The same way it does in FPTP.

That is not possible. A major advantage of PV over FPTP is the elimination of the spoiler effect.

It may reduce it but not eliminate it and only if number of choices is reasonably small but when confusion increases with increase of number of choices beyond ability of average voter to concentrate it may become counter productive.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #31 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 7:28pm Perhaps you should try to demonstrate with an example.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: first past the post voting Reply #32 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 7:38pm freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 7:28pm: Perhaps you should try to demonstrate with an example. 1999 NSW election.
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John New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 27	Re: first past the post voting Reply #33 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 7:56pm Optional preferential voting is the best method. That way, people don't have to put in preferences they don't care about, nor does anyone who does value other parties waste their vote.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #34 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 10:18pm Tallow, what happened in that election? John, do you think voting should be compulsory?
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tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #35 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 9:38am

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 10:18pm:

Tallow, what happened in that election?
...

Cleverly calculated abuse of PV system.

"The upper house ballot paper that had 81 groupings and 264 candidates, and measured 1m x 0.7m!"

Antony Green
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3359&page=2

Voting Capers (And Some Interesting Trivia)
http://www.thepigsareflying.org/archives/2004/10/voting-capers-a.html

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #36 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 9:40am So where's the bit about the spoiler effect?
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: first past the post voting Reply #37 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 9:54am freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 9:40am: So where's the bit about the spoiler effect? All over the place.
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locutius

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #38 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:02am

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 11:57am:

Why not take it one step further and instead of giving the greens whatever number of seats corresponds most closely to 3%, actually give them 3% of the voting power in parliament. That is, your power in praliament is not down to haw many bums on seats you ahve, but how many people voted for you. Effectively then there is one 'seat' or vote per person, but they are represented in parliament by whoever they voted for.

FD that is a good suggestion. I think the mechanics of that could work quite well.

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tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #39 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:06am

locutius wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:02am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 11:57am:

Why not take it one step further and instead of giving the greens whatever number of seats corresponds most closely to 3%, actually give them 3% of the voting power in parliament. That is, your power in praliament is not down to haw many bums on seats you ahve, but how many people voted for you. Effectively then there is one 'seat' or vote per person, but they are represented in parliament by whoever they voted for.

FD that is a good suggestion. I think the mechanics of that could work quite well.

It should be conditional that "greens" don't enrol in concrete jungles.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #40 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:07am Tallo, that is not the spoiler effect. You are confusing two separate issues. Locutius: http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/electoral-reform.html#direct-democracy
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tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #41 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:19am

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:07am:

Tallo, that is not the spoiler effect. You are confusing two separate issues.
...

Quote:

The "spoiler effect" is a term to describe the effect a minor party candidate with little chance of winning can have on a close election, in which their candidacy results in the election being won by a candidate dissimilar to them rather than a candidate similar to them by taking votes away from the viable candidate with similar views.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect

I am not saying that PV is inherently SE factor but rather that it does not cancel it.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #42 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:27am It is not the spoiler effect. It is a completely different mechanism. It gets the minor party candidate elected rather than a major candidate. It does not lead to the election of a candidate with dissimilar views to the minor party candidate. Read the rest of the wkikpedia article.
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tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #43 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:37am

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:27am:

It is not the spoiler effect. It is a completely different mechanism. It gets the minor party candidate elected rather than a major candidate. It does not lead to the election of a candidate with dissimilar views to the minor party candidate.

Read the rest of the wkikpedia article.

Sure, it is spoiler effect by different mechanism. Where did I say that FPTP and PV have the same mechanisms?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #44 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:38am It is not the spoiler effect. Not only is it a different mechanism, it is a different effect. Are we going to have to go through this rubbish every time a new word pops up that you don't understand?
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