Australian Politics Forum - first past the post voting

tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #45 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:43am

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:38am:

It is not the spoiler effect. Not only is it a different mechanism, it is a different effect.

Are we going to have to go through this rubbish every time a new word pops up that you don't understand?

Quote:

The "spoiler effect" is a term to describe the effect a minor party candidate with little chance of winning can have on a close election

Exactly what happened in 1999 NSW election.

No, we are free not to do anything so if you don't want to discuss it any further you don't have to.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #46 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:44am The spoiler effect is a specific effect, not any effect a minor candidate can have.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: first past the post voting Reply #47 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:51am freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:44am: The spoiler effect is a specific effect, not any effect a minor candidate can have. Not so according the definition above.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #48 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:53am Yes it is specific according to the definition you linked to - but obviously not according to the partial definition you pasted. Whoever chose the wording obviously didn't consider the possibility that their audience might include someone like you, otherwise they would have made the entire definition a single sentence.
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tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #49 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:06am

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:53am:

Yes it is specific according to the definition you linked to - but obviously not according to the partial definition you pasted. Whoever chose the wording obviously didn't consider the possibility that their audience might include someone like you, otherwise they would have made the entire definition a single sentence.

Here is the full definition then:
Quote:

The "spoiler effect" is a term to describe the effect a minor party candidate with little chance of winning can have on a close election, in which their candidacy results in the election being won by a candidate dissimilar to them rather than a candidate similar to them by taking votes away from the viable candidate with similar views. The minor candidate is often referred to as a "spoiler." It is a real-life demonstration of the kingmaker scenario.

And it still fits with the historical example of the real world I gave above.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #50 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:07am That is still only a partial definition, but even that partial definition contrdicts your example.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: first past the post voting Reply #51 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:13am freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:07am: That is still only a partial definition, but even that partial definition contrdicts your example. Where is full generic definition then and how does this "partial" definition contradict my example?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #52 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:19am This might help you figure it out. I'm not sure why the separated the mechanism and the effect like this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_splitting Also, try this: http://www.fairvote.org/?page=752
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tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #53 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:38am

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:19am:

This might help you figure it out. I'm not sure why the separated the mechanism and the effect like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_splitting

Also, try this:

http://www.fairvote.org/?page=752

That's vote splitting according to the 1st link.
Quote:

Vote splitting is an electoral effect in which the distribution of votes among multiple similar candidates reduces the chance of winning for any of the similar candidates, and increases the chance of winning for a dissimilar candidate.

Then they proceed making conclusions not other definitions. Spoiler effect they have separately anyway.

Even in conclusions that FPTP is susceptible to VS, which can be argued they don't deny that PV can be affected by it as well.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #54 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:42am You should seek to understand the spoiler effect first, then your confusion about where it applies will disappear.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: first past the post voting Reply #55 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:53am freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:42am: You should seek to understand the spoiler effect first, then your confusion about where it applies will disappear. Looks like I won the battle as well as campaign.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: first past the post voting Reply #56 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:56am Do you think you understand the spoiler effect?
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: first past the post voting Reply #57 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 12:01pm freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:56am: Do you think you understand the spoiler effect? I have demonstrated it above.
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freediver

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #58 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 12:08pm

Vote splitting is the mechanism behind the spoiler effect.

That is why the description of vote splitting is in the wikipedia article on the spoiler effect. Just because they didn't say 'we included this here on this page because it is what causes the spoiler effect' does not mean it isn't so. They just didn't feel the need to state the obvious because they credited their audience with more intelligence.

That is why the separate article on vote splitting says that the spoiler effect is it's well known effect.

Can you explain how the spoiler effect happened in the 1999 NSW election?

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tallowood

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Re: first past the post voting
Reply #59 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 12:36pm

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 12:08pm:

Vote splitting is the mechanism behind the spoiler effect.

That is why the description of vote splitting is in the wikipedia article on the spoiler effect. Just because they didn't say 'we included this here on this page because it is what causes the spoiler effect' does not mean it isn't so. They just didn't feel the need to state the obvious because they credited their audience with more intelligence.

That is why the separate article on vote splitting says that the spoiler effect is it's well known effect.

Can you explain how the spoiler effect happened in the 1999 NSW election?

In 1999 NSW election minor party candidates had the SE on the election, in which their candidacy resulted in the election being won by candidates dissimilar to themselves rather than candidates similar to themselves by taking votes away from the viable candidates with similar views.

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