Australian Politics Forum - The Great Muslim Debate

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Forum rules, Recent posts (with text), RSS, Search options, Browse all uploaded images
Home, Articles, Green Tax Shift, Evolution,

Australian Politics Forum › Member Run Boards › Islam › The Great Muslim Debate

(Moderator: polite_gandalf)

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 13

The Great Muslim Debate (Read 48075 times)

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49963
At my desk.

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #105 - Apr 6^th, 2007 at 11:05am

No, I am trying to point out why it is inherently offensive to tell somebody you have superior views to them because of your faith... are you even reading what I wrote?

Yes I am reading. Don't assume people don't understand just because they disagree.

What is not justified about taking offence when someone comes and tells you your views amount to sh!t because you don't believe in the same stupid little book that they do?

Is that what he said?

Is it not offensive for me to prance into a church and begin telling people that there is no god?

Not sure about that one. They would have every right to boot you out, but they would be more likely to try to help you.

What on earth is not justified about taking offence to having religious views shoved down my throat everywhere I turn.

Is that really what is happening?

I take offense when christians infiltrate our secular political process and work to prevent personal freedoms and hamper scientific advances.

That's what democracy is all about. It's not that they want to undermine your values, it's just that they have slightly different priorities. There is nothing wrong with people letting their religion influence how they engage in politics.

Can you not see that a good many others on this board are getting offended as well?

I can see that it bothers a few people.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

zoso

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 512

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #106 - Apr 6^th, 2007 at 11:53am

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2007 at 11:05am:

yes I am reading. Don't assume people don't understand just because they disagree.

There you go patronising again... That is fine freediver, except that you completely misrepresented what I have been saying, you didn't disagree with what I was saying, you disagreed with something that I have not been saying, a straw man if you will. The only way I figure you could have got it so wrong was that you simply weren't reading.

Quote:

Is that what he said?

Through implication, I believe so. That is more or less how I feel about constant pressure from religious nuts. Ofcourse no christian is going to put it this way but yes that is about what penders comments amount to.

Quote:

Not sure about that one. They would have every right to boot you out, but they would be more likely to try to help you.

No doubt they would, but to think that nobody would be offended you are kidding yourself.

Quote:

Is that really what is happening?

More or less. Its most likely this easter pagan holiday that the christians think they created... but none the less, christians are relentless in shoving their unwanted views down everyone's throats. They think its all fine and good because its just their faith, but it amounts to and absolute intrusion of privacy and religious freedoms in my book. Ever noticed the christians are most often among the biggest complainers when it comes to Islam? Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

Quote:

That's what democracy is all about. It's not that they want to undermine your values, it's just that they have slightly different priorities. There is nothing wrong with people letting their religion influence how they engage in politics.

There is also an important separation of church and state in the westminster system , so while religious views may influence individuals, church representatives have no place in parliment.

Quote:

I can see that it bothers a few people.

You think??

Why wont the smacking christians just LEAVE everyone ALONE? if they had respect for my privacy and beliefs in the first place we wouldn't be here talking about this. Christians are just about the most arrogant, intrusive and pushy religious nuts on the planet, second only to perhaps hari crishnas. Just because they disguise it in a thin veil of polite cheeryness does not make it any less rude and intrusive when they shovel their BS onto all of us.

Goddamn, THIS is why I never should open my mouth in regards to christian issues. You cannot reason with these freaks. Your faith is in decline chumps, enjoy your final days while they last...

PS. Pender, I only started pushing my views onto you when I could see clearly that you simply defy reason and wish only to go around pushing your views at any cost, upon seeing red at your pure arrogance, I could not help myself. Read through anything else I have written outside of this thread and I generally am not interested in pushing people towards any religious belief structure. I have my own brand of faith thank you, and I would never think to shove it onto another individual, generally I would think people would be kind enough to extend me the same respect, but when you demonstrated clearly you are not interested in that, everything went out the window... you see how much peace and love your views bring??

IP Logged

Classic Liberal

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 769
sydney
Gender: male

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #107 - Apr 6^th, 2007 at 12:28pm

I have no probelem with you being offended if i call your beliefs wrong, in fact i think that would be natural reaction although i would expect you to also give my point due consideration as i have given yours.

i explained at length why christians dont leave poeple alone.

anyway religious discussion rarely amounts to anything other than fights when people of the subject beliefs are involved.

I also agree that Church and state should be separate, you wont see me supporting any current bishops or cardinals into government. Christiniaty and even fundamentalism deserves representation in the government if the recieve enough support.

interestingly it is not my views but your reaction to them that have brought no peace and love to this thread. I have not reacted in such a way to your views, even when they were imposed, perhaps the violence in the conversation then is a fault of your views not my own.

anyway i'm done on this one, nice chatting.

« Last Edit: Apr 6^th, 2007 at 12:37pm by Classic Liberal »

IP Logged

zoso

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 512

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #108 - Apr 6^th, 2007 at 12:32pm

Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2007 at 12:28pm:

i explained at length why chrsitians dont leave poeple alone.

Where have I missed this point? I get it pender, I find it profoundly disturbing.

Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2007 at 12:28pm:

anyway religious discussion rarely amounts to anything other than fights when people of the subject beliefs are involved.

So why is it again that you insist on being so pushy about your faith? You seem to be aware that it is both rude and intrusive, and now you acknowledge that it more or less only causes argument? What about some of those other christian values like love thy neighbour (ie: respect my sh!t)? Why is it that the 'desire to share my amazing gift' comes above all other christian values that would tell you to respect others and not peddle your wares?

Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2007 at 12:28pm:

I also agree that Church and state should be separate, you wont see me supporting any current bishops or cardinals into government. Christiniaty and even fundamentalism deserves representation in the government if the recieve enough support.

Good

IP Logged

zoso

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 512

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #109 - Apr 6^th, 2007 at 1:35pm

Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2007 at 12:28pm:

I have given christio-fascism all the time and consideration it will ever need in my universe and have thoroughly dismissed it. You chumps had your chance.

I am not pushing my beliefs onto you, I haven't even once on this board MENTIONED my spiritual beliefs. I merely ask that if you are a sincere and respectful individual that you refrain from telling me that my beliefs are wrong and yours are superior. Just keep it in your pants you freak!

Clearly you are simply a rude and disrespectful individual who utterly refuses to show respect for those around him by refraining from pushing your views onto others. This is your wonderful and beautiful faith? To be pushy and domineering, to go around telling the world that they are wrong and you are right at all costs? You really DON'T think there are aspects of your religion that deserve to be held in higher regard than the desire to spread your views from one corner of the globe to the other? Isn't it a chrisitan ideal to have respect for others????????????????????

IP Logged

Classic Liberal Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 769 sydney Gender:	Re: The Great Muslim Debate Reply #110 - Apr 6^th, 2007 at 8:20pm you have pushed your beliefs onto me, youve told me that there is no right or wrong and i am in no position to say that their is such? How is this not being pushy? You are a disturbed person, you need to sort out some issues, and i will leave you to it.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49963
At my desk.

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #111 - Apr 7^th, 2007 at 12:40am

I know what you have 'found' and its a godd@mn lie, a load of tripe

Zoso it sounds to me like it is you who is ridiculing other's beliefs, not the other way around.

Through implication, I believe so.

In other words he didn't actually say it. A strawman if you will...

That is more or less how I feel about constant pressure from religious nuts.

I get the impression that you are reaction to multiple people, not all of whom are on this forum. Right?

christians are relentless in shoving their unwanted views down everyone's throats

No they aren't. I barely even notice it.

They think its all fine and good because its just their faith, but it amounts to and absolute intrusion of privacy and religious freedoms in my book.

What about in reality? Are they really invading your privacy?

Ever noticed the christians are most often among the biggest complainers when it comes to Islam? Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

Actually I believe it was AN, who is antagonistic towards all organised religion. I hadn't really come across any serious anti muslim stuff till I started this forum.

There is also an important separation of church and state in the westminster system , so while religious views may influence individuals, church representatives have no place in parliment.

Not an institutionalised place. If they were elected they would have a valid place.

Why wont the smacking christians just LEAVE everyone ALONE?

They do.

Christians are just about the most arrogant, intrusive and pushy religious nuts on the planet, second only to perhaps hari crishnas.

Oh dear, the hari chrisna's now. They really bother you? Is it because they are so happy?

Zoso your statements about Christianity (and the hari chrisnas) are far more antagonistic than any statements I have seen here from them. You are still focussing on your reactions to them, not on what they actually do. If you started giving specific examples, rather than your interpretations of their intentions, I might be more inclined to agree with you.

« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2007 at 8:38am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

zoso

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 512

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #112 - Apr 7^th, 2007 at 1:43pm

Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2007 at 8:20pm:

you have pushed your beliefs onto me, youve told me that there is no right or wrong and i am in no position to say that their is such? How is this not being pushy?

Those are not religious beliefs, they are simply points of respect that one must accept if one is to ever get along with those around them. Clearly you are not interested in achieving harmony with your non christian neighbours?

Classic Liberal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2007 at 8:20pm:

You are a disturbed person, you need to sort out some issues, and i will leave you to it.

Right, now the fact that I am not christian and do not want christian beliefs forced onto me at every turn means I am not only inferior but I am now disturbed...good one mate.

Again, really nice religion you have there, really peaceful and friendly, I can see these views you hold will always allow you to live peacefully with those around you. Roll Eyes

IP Logged

zoso

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 512

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #113 - Apr 7^th, 2007 at 1:58pm

freediver wrote on Apr 7^th, 2007 at 12:40am:

Zoso it sounds to me like it is you who is ridiculing other's beliefs, not the other way around.

Only once I lost my temper, and I fulyl accept that what I said was arrogant. My original point still stands and has not been refuted, in fact pender just accepted that it is acceptable for him to upset people in the name of 'sharing' his faith.

Quote:

In other words he didn't actually say it. A strawman if you will...

Not even close.

Quote:

I get the impression that you are reaction to multiple people, not all of whom are on this forum. Right?

Insightful freediver, how very insightful of you...

Quote:

No they aren't. I barely even notice it.

Because you are clearly in defence of this offensive behaviour.

Quote:

What about in reality? Are they really invading your privacy?

Yes.

Quote:

Actually I believe it was AN, who is antagonistic towards all organised religion. I hadn't really come across any serious anti muslim stuff till I started this forum.

'Among those' pender is right up there with AN

Quote:

Not an institutionalised place. If they were elected they would have a valid place.

No.
Quote:

They do.

They do not, or else I wouldn't even be on this topic... you have blinkers on freediver

Quote:

Oh dear, the hari chrisna's now. They really bother you? Is it because they are so happy?

Again... if theydidn't shove their religious beliefs down my throat, I wouldn't have a problem, that and the chrishnas are hypocrites and scammers just as christians are.

Quote:

Zoso your statements about Christianity (and the hari chrisnas) are far more antagonistic than any statements I have seen here from them. You are still focussing on your reactions to them, not on what they actually do. If you started giving specific examples, rather than your interpretations of their intentions, I might be more inclined to agree with you.

Only since I lost my temper at penders and your own utter ignorance. If christians are not overbearing, intrusive and pushy, I have no problem, when they force their views on everyone around them in the name of 'sharing the faith', at the expense of upsetting people, as pender confessed he is willing to do, I have a problem, I have a real big problem with that, I have a problem with ANY reliogous person imposing their views on my personal space, it is intrusive and arrogant and pisses me the bugger off.

I don't even need to continue here, pender agreed with me and proved my original point, that he is willing to upset people to push his views around, I won this argument the second he said that. If you read back the whole point of everything I have saidhere was that I was trying to show pender that if he communicates in a particular way, he is going to upset people, after much carry on, he simply admitted he is willing to do that just to 'share' his faith. There is nothing more for me to say, except to dish out what I cop, and happily wear the title of arrogant asshole who only wants to piss off christians, you see there I am honest, christians do this and think they are all good and pure for doing so...

IP Logged

sense(Guest)

Guest

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #114 - Apr 7^th, 2007 at 10:39pm

zozo has a point. This thread is surrounded by Google ads from religious maniacs trying to sell religion. None of the adverts here are from atheists trying to put their viewpoint. But things are changing. Dawkins has done a great job with his "The God Delusion" and Sam Harris has done a much more concise and effective job with his "Letter to a Christian Nation". Richard Dawkin's website is superb.
Christians are defenceless when it comes to dealing with the Islamic threat. Its just another religion - all based on fairy tales for the purposes of controlling the masses. Grow up.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49963
At my desk.

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #115 - Apr 8^th, 2007 at 4:38am

Those are not religious beliefs, they are simply points of respect that one must accept if one is to ever get along with those around them.

That is, pretty much the same thing. Whether a view is religious or 'from the mind of man' should not change the conventions that guide us as to what circumstances are appropriate for sharing those views. That is religious descrimination. You are basically saying that athiests can criticise religious people, but not vice versa. It is religious discrimination. That appears to be what your entire argument is based on.

My original point still stands and has not been refuted, in fact pender just accepted that it is acceptable for him to upset people in the name of 'sharing' his faith.

Sure it is. I upset people all the time with my views on marine parks, evolution, green tax shifts etc. I always come across people who insist that I must be doing something wrong because people react so badly to what I say.

Because you are clearly in defence of this offensive behaviour.

What offensive behaviour? I don't think you have even quoted anyone. Most of my disagreement with you stems from the absence of any evidence to back up your claims. I appears that you are just angry at the world, or at religious people in particular, and are projecting some kind of persecution complex onto your interactions here.

Are you arguing that candidates for election should not have the freedom to associate with religious groups?

Only since I lost my temper at penders and your own utter ignorance.

If you think I am ignorant, inform me. Give some real examples.

Christians are defenceless when it comes to dealing with the Islamic threat.

No they aren't. If anything there is a real risk of Christians over-reacting.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

zoso

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 512

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #116 - Apr 11^th, 2007 at 2:50pm

Exactly what evidence is necessary freediver? and where have I failed to provide it? Do you need a re-cap of this whole argument to make things clear??

To begin (forgetting that we started on muslims), AN called pender a nut then claimed religious fanatics are trouble, sprint jumped in with a bible quote, then pender (and here is where it begins) responds with this beauty:

Quote:

interestingly i would refer to you as a nutter, you just hate everyone different from you. and i think i am no more superior or valuable than anyone else, just luckier in that i was raised well.

My soccer team is made up of Christians, Muslims and Atheists, i get along with all of them very well.
When i was at school, Some of my best friends at school were Hindu and Muslim, one of my mates at Uni is Jew. I am a christian fundamentalist, yet i seem to be able to coexist quite happily with all these other religions. Actually i am quite normal just like everyone else, amazing.

You claim that i am a bigot and throw around blanket statements like that I think i am seperior, after all we fundy's hate everything that isnt us and we are self righteous to teh bone. Ironically by saying these things you are exemplifying the same characteristice you are so against.

I just like everybody else make mistakes, in fact i know what is right unlike many people and yet still do wrong, so perhaps i am lesser of a person than most, but self rightious i am not.

Which up until the final paragraph I was finding quite agreeable, all good stuff. At this point I simply said to pender:

Quote:

Just a tip, if you don't want to confirm his comments ie:
Quote:

throw around blanket statements like that I think i am seperior

Don't go saying things like:
Quote:

in fact i know what is right unlike many people

Which implies your religion tells you what is right and thus us godless folk don't know what that is. I always come across this with religious types: "I'm not arrogant or anything its just that my beliefs make me better than you".

I used examples from penders comments from the beginning. The conversation quickly grew out of control as pender insisted that his views do not make him arrogant and that he is not superior, only his views are, to which I replied you cannot have that cake and eat it...chump. Soon I was debating whether thinking your views are superior makes you arrogant and whether or not it is more important to 'share' your views or avoid upsetting people. We were getting nowhere until pender came out with this wonderful little bit:

Quote:

Personally Zozo i dont like telling anybody how they should live their lives, but I am obliged to.

Oh and causing people offense isn’t always a bad thing, it can often have good outcomes

Which sounds a lot like pender is happy to ram his beliefs down everyone throat and that upsetting people in the process is forgivable for the ultimate goal of spreading the 'good word'.

This made me rather upset, since pender had been saying things that I thought were encouraging, and so I lost my temper and spat the dummy at the christians. Things I have claimed that might need evidence? That Christians ram their sh!t down my throat at every turn? They knock on my door invading my privacy with their nonsense, when a cable TV salesman knocks on my door I consider it an invasion of my privacy a it is for anyone who does this. What more evidence do I need to provide? Christians have advertisements on the tellie, proving they are willing to go to any length to push their ideas onto others. What more evidence do I need to provide that they use TV advertising? They preach at my local university in public areas upsetting more or less everyone present, certainly everyone near me is upset by this, do you want more evidence that they actually do this? I, like all Australians, was forced to endure Christian doctrine at regular intervals in every single year of my schooling, I know the message, I know the morals, I am not interested, why do Christians keep trying to change my beliefs and refuse to respect that I disagree with them? Apart from losing my temper here I do not go out of my way to change the way Christians view the world, why can they not extend the same respect to me?

IP Logged

zoso

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 512

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #117 - Apr 11^th, 2007 at 3:58pm

My feelings on this topic, and on the topic of separation of church and state are put into words almost perfectly by this quote from US senator Barack Obama: (source: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5456752353400414374)

Quote:

Separation of church and state was initiated not just to protect the state, it is there to protect the church, and so we have got to have a separation of church and state as a principle. We can argue at the margins about what that means and I suggest that sometimes those of us that are seeking to police that line don't have to be absolutist about it, not every mention of god in a public place somehow oppresses folks. The flip side is that those who are religious have to translate their religious motivated agenda into universal terms that are amenable to reason. It is not sufficient, if you are against gay marriage or against abortion, to simply say 'god told me so' and then expect other people to feel 'well ok'

This is absolutely what I believe this conversation comes down to. You are both trying to equate my secular belief (that in order to exist harmoniously with non religious neighbors, or neighbors of a different faith, you must respect their beliefs) with your faith based belief. They are not the same, I can back up my belief with reason, you can only back up your belief with faith. We live in a secular society and we must all respect secular values as the mutual common ground that we use to achieve harmony with others, and indeed these are the values which grant freedoms of religious expression. Note that I challenge the notion that simply attempting to change a persons faith to meet your own standard is not a religious freedom of expression, it is a disrespectful intrusion of a persons freedoms.

Obama then says in regards to the political process:

Quote:

The realm of faith, by definition, is not amenable to proof. On the other hand politics, like science, has to be amenable to proof, it has got to be something that all of us can see, touch, feel, understand

This is what it all comes down to, in a secular society where anybody is free to follow any faith we must be able to communicate with each other in terms that everyone can relate to if there is to be social cohesion. You cannot relate faith based principles to secular principles and be on the same footing, they are not the same, they do not equate. And so in conclusion, it is not a good idea for pender to publicly decry that his views are superior, using only faith based evidence instead of proof and reason, if he is interested in keeping any sort of peace and having a defensible position when people challenge him as arrogant. Here freediver is the clear distinction between the way in which you upset people (through reasoned argument based in proof), and the way in which pender is upsetting people (through assumptions of faith).

Freediver for the record I agree here with everything Obama has said, yes christians are free to be part of the political process, it is not however justifiable to push politics (or science for that matter) in terms of faith based arguments. By extension from this principle I believe it is not sufficient for religious followers to defend rude behaviour or intrusive behaviour on the grounds of faith based arguments. It is my personal belief that the methods through which we achieve social harmony and social cohesion must be 'amenable to proof', as Obama so eloquently put it, if they are to be considered valid.

« Last Edit: Apr 11^th, 2007 at 4:04pm by zoso »

IP Logged

sense(Guest) Guest	Re: The Great Muslim Debate Reply #118 - Apr 11^th, 2007 at 5:34pm Zoso - I'm with you on all that. Cheers
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49963
At my desk.

Re: The Great Muslim Debate
Reply #119 - Apr 13^th, 2007 at 4:24am

Note that I challenge the notion that simply attempting to change a persons faith to meet your own standard is not a religious freedom of expression, it is a disrespectful intrusion of a persons freedoms.

I strongly disagree with this. See the other thread I just started. It is always a matter of freedom. Whether it is disrespectful is very open to interpretation and depends on how it is done. Furthermore, respect is a very grey area when it comes to law or any other type of policy.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 13

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

« Forum

‹ Board

Top of this page

Poll
Question: Aussie converts- What to do.
Leave them alone Force them to renounce Deport them undecided « Last Modified by: DILLIGAF on: Mar 22^nd, 2007 at 6:21pm »