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Does Nationalism make you a better person? (Read 16483 times)
freediver
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #15 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 7:47pm
 
But we're not European. We're Australian.
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ex-member DonaldTrump
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #16 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 7:55pm
 
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But we're not European. We're Australian.


Australian = European
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #17 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 8:03pm
 
Lack of diversity leads to an inability to adapt and change. Opposition to diversity inevitably means opposition to change. A lot of Japan's recent troubles are attributed to holding on to old traditions despite the obvious damage it is doing to their society. For example they are still a deeply sexist society. A society that squashes diversity destroys anything new and stagnates. That is why the middle east when from a technological powerhouse and cultural centre to a backwater, and China even earlier, and the same thing would happen to western society if you had your way.

That is not to say we should accept everyone and everything with open arms. It just means you have to have a valid reason for opposing something and trying to ban it, rather than responding to fear, grounded in ignorance.
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #18 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 8:29pm
 
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For example they are still a deeply sexist society.


Give me ONE example of how this is so 'harmful' to Japanese society.


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That is why the middle east when from a technological powerhouse and cultural centre to a backwater, and China even earlier, and the same thing would happen to western society if you had your way.


Right.  Roll Eyes So what cultures from other countries are so beneficial to Australia, freediver? Give us a few examples. And PLEASE don't say 'food.' That's such a hollow argument.


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That is not to say we should accept everyone and everything with open arms. It just means you have to have a valid reason for opposing something and trying to ban it, rather than responding to fear, grounded in ignorance.


Right.
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #19 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 9:48pm
 
The japanese have a ''nippon japan policy'' (like white aus policy) where only japanese are allowed to permenantly live and own property. Cool

If only our White Australia Policy still existed! Grin
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #20 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 2:25am
 
Great question, DT.

Some nationalists are good people because their patriotism follows from a love of their own community, which they know well, and their love usually extends to a warm and proud hospitality towards strangers.

Some nationalists, on the other hand, can be the most despicable people of all, when their beliefs follow from a fear of change or the unfamiliar. Their hatred and anger creates suspicion and misery for their neighbours, and poisons and undermines the harmony and wellbeing of their own communities.

The problem is that modern life is cosmopolitan - much of what makes the lifestyle we take for granted derives from the global economy - it isn't possible to remain a part of this modern culture while avoiding contact with "others". The mixing is inevitable, and the resulting tensions are inevitable.

Your point about the importance of education is spot on. Education that promotes tolerance and understanding of others.
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #21 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 4:11am
 
Quote:
Some nationalists are good people because their patriotism follows from a love of their own community, which they know well, and their love usually extends to a warm and proud hospitality towards strangers.

Some nationalists, on the other hand, can be the most despicable people of all, when their beliefs follow from a fear of change or the unfamiliar. Their hatred and anger creates suspicion and misery for their neighbours, and poisons and undermines the harmony and wellbeing of their own communities.



Well put shithouserat. Smiley
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freediver
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #22 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 1:27pm
 
Give me ONE example of how this is so 'harmful' to Japanese society. 

I don't think I'll bother. If you don't think that sexism harms a society, perhaps you should start a new thread and tell us all about it.
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #23 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 5:16pm
 
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I don't think I'll bother. If you don't think that sexism harms a society, perhaps you should start a new thread and tell us all about it.


Fair enough. But you still should back up your arguments with some evidence and reasoning freediver, something which you generally lack.

To me... sexism isn't totally 'detrimental' to a society like you're making it out to be. In fact, I'd say feminism is far more detrimental than sexism ever could be, especially in a society like Japan. And I don't think it's wise to explain to ME about Japanese society... as I'm a specialist.

You're yet to give me a convincing example of how 'diversity' benefits society. Until you do... you're argument means nothing to me. (Give me a convincing reason and I'll admit you're right-- Trust me... I'm pretty open-minded).
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #24 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 7:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2007 at 8:03pm:
Lack of diversity leads to an inability to adapt and change. Opposition to diversity inevitably means opposition to change. A lot of Japan's recent troubles are attributed to holding on to old traditions despite the obvious damage it is doing to their society. For example they are still a deeply sexist society. A society that squashes diversity destroys anything new and stagnates. That is why the middle east when from a technological powerhouse and cultural centre to a backwater, and China even earlier, and the same thing would happen to western society if you had your way.

That is not to say we should accept everyone and everything with open arms. It just means you have to have a valid reason for opposing something and trying to ban it, rather than responding to fear, grounded in ignorance.

This is spot on.

Quote:
Fair enough. But you still should back up your arguments with some evidence and reasoning freediver, something which you generally lack. 

If I might take the opportunity to do this for him. At the end of the agricultural revolution in Europe, most countries were at the same technological level. This was largely the guild system in which technical guilds held monopolies over the technologies they understood. Excessive competition and fear of cooperation stifled innovation. At this time England passed law effectively outlawing the holding of monopolies on ideas, causing information and knowledge to be freely spread horizontally throughout society. This cultural shift was the spur for the British industrial revolution and a major reason why at this period in history Britain pulled far ahead of other European nations.

Fast track to post American revolution. By now Britain was the undisputed master of the industrial world, but it had become overly confident in its position and people were arrogant in the belief in British superiority in manufacturing. Britain produced quality products but industrialists in the USA believed they could enact a more effective system. Essentially whilst the British remained determined to produce quality goods the Americans began producing goods of 'good enough' quality at much lower expense than the British. This cultural shift from the British system in the USA to a more modern approach led to the total American dominance in manufacturing by the beginning of the 20th century, whilst Britain languished in cultural conservatism.

Interestingly that post WW2, the USA is looking a lot like England did back then, with countries like Japan leading the way in 'lean' manufacturing methods and innovative systems to allow low cost quality products over the last half century. And now as freediver points out Japan is falling victim to conservatism while China and India are dominating the global economy through their own insistence on a cultural shift.

So you see, cultural diversity is strength. And you cannot simply say "what are they bringing to our country" because you simply can not predict how people of different cultural background will change with the influence of a new environment and how their differing influence will change our current cultural environment. Technology is the currency of dominance and who is to say the next great Australian invention is not going o come from a Chinese, Indonesian or Iraqi immigrant (for instance)? Our government after all seems very confident in the importation of skills from other countries.
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #25 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 7:12pm
 
Just to offer some more evidence I would like to stress the example of China. A traditionalist culture in China led to its utter defeat by British imperialists, and it remained one of the most backward countries on the planet until the great leap forward, but this is only half the story. Again, cultural conservatism quickly took hold in the Chinese communist party and the economy more or less ground to a halt as it did for Russia. Deng Xiaoping ultimately acknowledged that the western culture of free market capitalism had to be adopted if China was ever to achieve any meaningful success. Again, this significant cultural shift has been the sole reason China is doing so well today.

The evidence is everywhere you look. Conservative cultures fail while those cultures that are willing to adopt change succeed due to innovation. However in order for these successful cultural changes to be able to occur the society must overall be open minded to change in the first place.
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #26 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 7:30pm
 
Got anything within the last 50 years, zoso, specifically culture that hasn't been contributed by European nationsTongue


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So you see, cultural diversity is strength.


No... I don't see. What you've proven is that European culture is superior and that the only thing we should be adopting from other cultures is the technology they 'might' invent. European culture is largely the same anyway, how is this 'diversity?'  Huh Do you have anything else besides 'technology?'


Quote:
Interestingly that post WW2, the USA is looking a lot like England did back then, with countries like Japan leading the way in 'lean' manufacturing methods and innovative systems to allow low cost quality products over the last half century. And now as freediver points out Japan is falling victim to conservatism while China and India are dominating the global economy through their own insistence on a cultural shift.


'Dominating' = Slave labour and paying your employees 10 cents an hour. Wink

Manufacturing methods = Working harder. Which, by the way, isn't unique to Japanese culture, any idiot can work harder.

Japan is falling victim to 'conservatism?'  Huh As far as I can see.. their economic problems are far more complex than that.
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #27 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 7:34pm
 
ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 14th, 2007 at 7:30pm:
Got anything within the last 50 years, zoso, specifically culture that hasn't been contributed by European nationsTongue

China, see my second post.

Japan leads manufacturing because of innovative practices, hard work is only half the story. Toyota is world renowned for its superior management structures and 'lean' manufacturing methods, not it's hard workers.
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #28 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 7:36pm
 
ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 14th, 2007 at 7:30pm:
No... I don't see. What you've proven is that European culture is superior and that the only thing we should be adopting from other cultures is the technology they 'might' invent. European culture is largely the same anyway, how is this 'diversity?'

European culture has not been an unchanging rock is my point. It has changed vastly and the European culture we have today is not that which existed during the agricultural revolution, or the industrial revolution. If you don't see that then you really won't ever see much I think - and you say you are interested in history  Roll Eyes
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Re: Does Nationalism make you a better person?
Reply #29 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 7:37pm
 
I think the 'just in time' philosophy for manufacturing originated in Japan and was a major factor in their economic boom - not just working hard.
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